Norman Thelwell

Presenter0:00

This download is the only extract the BBC has of this edition of Desert Island Discs. The presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:08

What part of the country do you come from?

Norman Thelwell0:11

I was born at

Presenter0:11

Yeah.

Norman Thelwell0:11

Thanks.

Presenter0:11

Yeah.

Norman Thelwell0:11

and had on Maisie's side.

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Uh

Norman Thelwell0:13

Yeah.

Presenter0:13

Yeah.

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Did you show a talent for drawing when you were very small?

Norman Thelwell0:16

All indeed.

Norman Thelwell0:18

Well, I can't remember a time in my life when I didn't draw.

Norman Thelwell0:22

I didn't notice the fact that I could draw so much as uh was a little astounded to find that other people couldn't.

Presenter0:29

Was there any artistic talent in your family?

Presenter0:31

Yeah.

Norman Thelwell0:31

None that I know of at all.

Presenter0:33

Did they encourage you?

Norman Thelwell0:35

Yes, but I think they tended to regard me rather as someone who could walk a tightrope, uh a sort of oddity.

Norman Thelwell0:42

Mm-hmm.

Presenter0:43

Were you well taught in art at school?

Norman Thelwell0:45

I wasn't taught at all. Um

Norman Thelwell0:48

I went to a grammar school where they uh

Norman Thelwell0:52

Again regarded art as rather a suspicious kind of thing, and I recall that just before I left they built a new school.

Norman Thelwell0:59

Uh without an artery.

Norman Thelwell1:00

Yeah.

Presenter1:02

What happened to you when you left school? What was your first job?

Norman Thelwell1:04

My first job was as a junior clerk in um

Norman Thelwell1:09

uh cattle and poultry food manufacturers in Liverpool. Yes. This was about the beginning of the war, wasn't it? This was just at the beginning of the war. I left school in nineteen thirty nine and started work in nineteen thirty nine. Yes. So that meant fire watching and all that sort of thing. Oh indeed, yes. Uh the whole of my first job I think of in terms of uh

Presenter1:22

Oh, indeed.

Norman Thelwell1:29

standing terrified on the roof while Liverpool was burning.

Norman Thelwell1:34

And then you joined the army.

Norman Thelwell1:36

Yes, I went into the army when I was eighteen. What happened to you in Khaki?

Norman Thelwell1:40

Well, I really didn't mind what I went in, Army, Navy or Air Force. The only thing I didn't want to do was be an infantryman with a bayonet. And of course that's what I was immediately

Norman Thelwell1:50

Sent to a uh infantry training centre at Lytham St Anne's near Blackpool. And I became an infantryman for two and a half years with a bayonet. And then what?

Norman Thelwell2:02

Well

Norman Thelwell2:03

I found that i in the army too they didn't really like people who had pencils and brushes. I recall once uh

Norman Thelwell2:11

A corporal in the Welsh Guards, I think. We were having a kit inspection, standing by beds, and he noticed a bundle of

Norman Thelwell2:20

uh brushes and pencils sticking out of my kick bag, and he stepped forward smartly, took them up in his hands and broke them with the air of someone tearing a a telephone directory in half.

Presenter2:32

He was striking a blow.

Norman Thelwell2:33

By saying how many Germans do you think you will kill with those?

Norman Thelwell2:37

So that i there was not a lot of encouragement, but I stuck at it and uh made a record of all the time I was in the army.

Presenter2:45

Yeah.

Norman Thelwell2:46

What got you out of your rut of being an infantryman with bayonets?

Norman Thelwell2:50

Well, for some strange reason, the Army decided that I was a potential radio mechanic. Did you know anything about radio? Nothing at all.

Norman Thelwell2:58

But nevertheless you became a mechanic. I became a mechanic, yeah.

Norman Thelwell3:01

I suppose I was about the only radio mechanic who really didn't know how to re

Presenter3:05

Uh

Norman Thelwell3:05

Repair a radio.

Presenter3:06

And Peter does like listening to it.

Norman Thelwell3:08

Well, I that's true.

Presenter3:08

Well

Norman Thelwell3:09

Where did it take you, that task? That took me to India.

Presenter3:13

You worked for a time on the staff of an Indian Army paper, didn't you?

Norman Thelwell3:17

Well, in fact I was billeted under canvas on the race course at Secundrabad when

Norman Thelwell3:23

I looked at

Norman Thelwell3:24

uh daily orders um and found uh a little notice saying anyone who

Norman Thelwell3:30

Knows about magazine production should report to company office.

Norman Thelwell3:33

So I was smartly up.

Norman Thelwell3:35

To come here.

Presenter3:36

They didn't know anything about magazine production.

Norman Thelwell3:38

Yeah.

Norman Thelwell3:39

Uh

Norman Thelwell3:40

And there was a gentleman with red tabs and a red band round his hat, and he said, What do you know about it?

Norman Thelwell3:45

And I produced a fistful of sketch books.

Norman Thelwell3:49

and put them on the table without saying anything and he flipped through them and said, Pack your kit, you're going to Delhi And uh within a matter of two or three days I was

Norman Thelwell3:59

shown into an office and uh told that um

Norman Thelwell4:03

A magazine was to be produced in I think about a month.

Norman Thelwell4:06

And you were art editor? Yes, uh in fact there were only two of us. Um luckily there was a sensible

Norman Thelwell4:14

And in fact, uh quite a brilliant man there who uh was a Fleet Street journalist and he knew the editorial side of it and he he helped me enormously. But I simply had to

Presenter4:22

But thanks

Norman Thelwell4:24

Find out. And this was the in a sense the best training I ever had in my life.

Presenter4:28

Learning about printing and reproduction.

Norman Thelwell4:29

Oh yes, I had to learn it all. I jolly well had to. Yeah.

Presenter4:32

Uh

Norman Thelwell4:32

What was the first thing you ever sold?

Presenter4:34

Uh

Norman Thelwell4:34

To a British publication. I sent a terrible drawing based on an Indian subject.

Norman Thelwell4:41

uh to London opinion. And I recall that that I had the reply on my birthday.

Norman Thelwell4:47

Uh and this was the first acceptance of uh a drawing by uh magazine from

Presenter4:52

Yeah.

Presenter4:53

Well now Norman, you were art editor to this Indian Army paper and you were freelancing for London opinion. What was the next thing to happen?

Norman Thelwell5:01

Well, oddly enough, uh I became a kind of unofficial designer of army uniforms for the newly emergent Indian Army.

Norman Thelwell5:09

Uh yes, I I designed a number of dress uniforms for the Indian Army and in fact

Norman Thelwell5:16

also designed the flag for the new Indian Armoured Corps.

Presenter5:19

How did that happen?

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I will

Norman Thelwell5:22

Really hardly know, except that I had a note from uh

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We hardly know

Norman Thelwell5:25

Field Marshal Auckinberg asking me if I would do it.

Presenter5:29

Why is your name?

Norman Thelwell5:32

I shouldn't think so.

Presenter5:34

And what happened when you were demobilized?

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You came back to England?

Norman Thelwell5:38

Yes, and

Norman Thelwell5:40

I decided that, as I knew nothing about art, perhaps I ought to find out something about it.

Norman Thelwell5:46

So I applied for a grant.

Norman Thelwell5:49

as an ex Army student, and went to Liverpool College of Art.

Presenter5:53

to start right at the bottom and take it all apart and put it together again.

Presenter5:57

Were you selling work at the same time? Oh yes, I was freelancing then. You started working for Punch, but

Norman Thelwell6:02

Yeah. Yeah.

Norman Thelwell6:04

Yes, I I started working for Punch about

Norman Thelwell6:08

Round about nineteen fifty, I think, or

Presenter6:11

Was that while you were still at Liverpool?

Norman Thelwell6:13

Immediately after I left Liverpool II.

Presenter6:15

What in

Norman Thelwell6:17

I went as a teacher of illustration to Wolverhampton College of Art.

Presenter6:21

Were you a good teacher? Did you like it?

Norman Thelwell6:24

I enjoyed a lot of things about it. I enjoyed the people, I enjoyed the company and the the general talk and so on, but I I never felt that I was uh uh a t a real teacher. I never thought I felt that it was a vacation.

Presenter6:34

I never

Norman Thelwell6:37

Uh and I couldn't really see myself being a teacher for the rest of my life.

Presenter6:42

Yeah.

Norman Thelwell6:42

What

Presenter6:42

What happened when you gave up?

Norman Thelwell6:42

Yeah.

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H.

Norman Thelwell6:45

Well, in in fact, I was offered a job out of the blue by

Norman Thelwell6:49

News Chronicle. And so I simply went completely freelance. I stopped teaching and

Presenter6:53

Yeah.

Presenter6:55

When did you start drawing those fat little girls on fat ponies?

Norman Thelwell6:58

Can't remember.

Presenter6:59

Remember the exact date.

Norman Thelwell6:59

But it's quite a long time ago. I was doing mainly uh countryside subjects for punch.

Norman Thelwell7:06

and the pony simply appeared in one as part of the

Norman Thelwell7:10

A general idea.

Norman Thelwell7:13

But it produced an immediate reaction from readers. And uh I did a second one on the same basically on the same subject, which had this exactly the same result.

Norman Thelwell7:24

Then the editor rang me one day and said, Look, we've had an awful lot of letters about

Norman Thelwell7:29

These ponies, do you think you could end up a page spread?

Norman Thelwell7:33

And I remember getting in a terrible panic and saying, but look, I've squeezed the subject dry. I couldn't possibly do a double page spread. And he said, well, try.

Norman Thelwell7:42

And I did produce this spread and you know, it's simply taken over on its own really.

Presenter7:49

Yeah.

Presenter7:49

Do you find it difficult getting ideas for cartoons? How do you set about it? Do you just roam about waiting for them to hit you, or do you sit and stare at sheets of drawing paper?

Presenter7:59

I sit and sit down.

Norman Thelwell7:59

Stare at sheets of drawing-paper.

Norman Thelwell8:02

Occasionally, of course, if an editor says, Will you do

Norman Thelwell8:06

uh a set of drawings on this subject. That's surprisingly more uh

Norman Thelwell8:11

Easy to follow up, because at least you have a theme.

Presenter8:14

Yes.

Norman Thelwell8:14

But if you have nothing special, then you have the whole universe to choose from, and it's very difficult then to channel your ideas.

Norman Thelwell8:22

Do you draw from life or from references or out of your head?

Norman Thelwell8:26

Most of the time now I draw from out of my head as it were, but I have a very good uh visual memory and I I have spent

Norman Thelwell8:37

Um a great deal of time filling hundreds of sketchbooks.

Norman Thelwell8:41

with every kind of subject under the sun.

Norman Thelwell8:44

Um but on the other hand, if I have a special subject to do, I am careful to do my homework. I feel that uh for example, if one was drawing an Elizabethan galleon, it's not good enough to draw an old boat. Um

Norman Thelwell8:59

I I do my homework and I make sure that it is rigged properly and the people who know about these things know that this is authentic.

Presenter9:07

Indeed, you do have that reputation for accuracy.

Presenter9:11

Do you find that the pony cartoons have rather taken over and and and typecast you?

Presenter9:16

Well, in the sense that pe

Norman Thelwell9:17

People say, Oh, hello, you're the pony man. Uh yes, in that way they do, but in fact I suppose I still do.

Presenter9:21

Uh

Norman Thelwell9:27

Twenty.

Norman Thelwell9:28

or saiety drying.

Presenter9:30

as of other subjects.

Norman Thelwell9:30

Graphic pony drawing I do.

Presenter9:32

Uh

Presenter9:32

And of course you still take time off to paint seriously. You have an exhibition coming up, I believe? Yes, in London in June.

Presenter9:40

Spend it.