Noel Rawsthorne

Presenter0:00

This download is the only extract the BBC has of this edition of Desert Island Discs. The presenter was Roy Plumley.

Presenter0:09

Now, Noel, you're organist at Liverpool Cathedral. Are you a Liverpudlian by birth?

Noel Rawsthorne0:13

Yes, I was born and bred in Liverpool.

Noel Rawsthorne0:16

From a middle school family?

Noel Rawsthorne0:18

Um well, my father was uh an amateur church organist, and he used to take me along on Saturday afternoons when he was practising for the Sunday services, and I used to pump the organ. As a very special concession, he used to land me five minutes on the organ at the end. And he used a pamp for me.

Presenter0:36

Yes, and you had the ambition that this is what you wanted to do.

Noel Rawsthorne0:40

Yes, I think so from a very

Noel Rawsthorne0:42

At an early age my father used to take me to the cathedral.

Noel Rawsthorne0:45

And we used to sit in the congregation. I thought, oh, even at the age of seven or eight, how nice it would be to sing in the cathedral choir and how nice it would be one day to play the organ there. Were you a corister in the cathedral? Yes, indeed I was, from nineteen forty two for something like four years.

Presenter1:03

Where did you study the organ?

Noel Rawsthorne1:05

First of all in uh Liverpool with a local organist, Doctor Jarvis.

Noel Rawsthorne1:10

and then through Manchester College Music.

Presenter1:12

Yes, to which you had a scholarship.

Noel Rawsthorne1:14

Yes.

Presenter1:15

What was your first appointment?

Noel Rawsthorne1:18

At the early age of 14, I think, for something like six months, when I left the cathedral choir, I was appointed to a local parish church where I filled in for something like six months.

Presenter1:29

After that?

Noel Rawsthorne1:30

Uh

Presenter1:30

Yeah.

Noel Rawsthorne1:30

Uh

Noel Rawsthorne1:30

Then I became a sort of unpaid acting assistant at the cathedral, and then, when I was nineteen, officially I was appointed assistant organist.

Presenter1:39

And then later on organized. Yes. How much further later on?

Noel Rawsthorne1:42

So much.

Noel Rawsthorne1:44

Um only when I was twenty five. I think I was young one of the youngest organists at the time, one of the youngest cathedral organists. But you still continued to study. You you took a a travelling scholarship? Yes, indeed. I travelled abroad and studied in Italy with Giumani.

Noel Rawsthorne1:58

and then in Paris with Marcel Dupre.

Presenter2:01

From which of those two masters did you learn more?

Noel Rawsthorne2:04

Uh

Noel Rawsthorne2:05

Well, I I learned quite a lot from both of them, but I enjoyed my time in Italy with Giamani very much because it

Noel Rawsthorne2:12

felt as if one had a a knife in one's back for the whole of the lesson and we had a lesson every day we practised every day so one felt fighting fit musically so to speak.

Noel Rawsthorne2:23

Um

Noel Rawsthorne2:24

I remember the first time I played in front of Giumani

Noel Rawsthorne2:29

and I sat on the organ and played through a a large scale bark

Noel Rawsthorne2:33

Prelude and fugue, which I thought rather brilliantly.

Noel Rawsthorne2:37

and he let me play it without any interruptions whatsoever.

Noel Rawsthorne2:41

And um then there was a silence at the end of it.

Noel Rawsthorne2:44

and he said absolutely nothing about the work,

Noel Rawsthorne2:48

And the first thing he said was

Noel Rawsthorne2:51

We must learn to look pretty at the console. We must sit up straight, head straight. This was, you know, General deportment. Nothing about the work at all, and it was a very humbling experience, and he was he was quite right.

Presenter3:03

He was starting with the basics. Absolutely.

Presenter3:07

Now Liverpool Cathedral is still unfinished, of course.

Noel Rawsthorne3:10

It's almost completed. It's due for completion in 1975. As soon as that. When was the foundation stone laid? Um it goes back to nineteen oh four.

Presenter3:20

Mhm. And how early on was the organ built?

Noel Rawsthorne3:24

Well, first of all the Lady Chapel was built, and then part of the cathedral was opened, and the organ, as it now stands, was completed in nineteen twenty six. It is the largest cathedral organ in the world, is that true? Well, it's often quoted as that, but in point of fact it isn't. It's certainly one of the largest in Europe.

Presenter3:41

Yes.

Presenter3:42

How big is it in in in technical terms? How many pipes? How many stops?

Noel Rawsthorne3:46

Well, it has something like nine thousand seven hundred and four pipes and five manuals, one hundred and forty five speaking stuffs, which which sounds absolutely amazing, but the the console is so compact it's it's very comfortable to manipulate.

Presenter3:59

Yeah.

Presenter4:00

Is an organ, a cathedral organ, designed in collaboration with the architect, placing it to be acoustically right?

Noel Rawsthorne4:07

Yes, I think largely when a building is in progress, it's a matter of a dialogue between the architect and the organ builder. And if this is a happy association, well then the organ is successful. Yes.

Presenter4:20

Uh

Noel Rawsthorne4:20

Yeah.

Presenter4:21

Now modern organs of course are bigger and magnificent and they're electrified. What about the craftsmanship? I mean are are the great organs the old ones?

Noel Rawsthorne4:30

A lot of people seem to think so, but um organs say of two hundred and fifty years ago were absolutely marvellous, particularly on the continent.

Noel Rawsthorne4:38

Then in the Victorian period we reached a new low, but in the last twenty years we're coming back to think in terms of classical organs and classical voicing.

Noel Rawsthorne4:49

And I think there's been a tremendous improvement in technical standards in the last 10 or 20 years.

Presenter4:56

So if you had the chance of redesigning the Liverpool Cathedral organ, which was built in nineteen twenty-six, you would make some changes.

Noel Rawsthorne5:03

Yes, I think so. It was an organ of its period. It was rather luxurious.

Noel Rawsthorne5:07

But one wouldn't build.

Noel Rawsthorne5:09

An organ of that period in that style today would be far too expensive.

Presenter5:15

Which composers does the Liverpool organ suit best?

Noel Rawsthorne5:19

I think

Noel Rawsthorne5:21

Modern composers, and particularly those of the French school, with its particular

Noel Rawsthorne5:26

Uh acoustics

Noel Rawsthorne5:28

When it's empty, the reverberation time, that is the echo, is about nine seconds. But if one tries to play bach, one loses a lot of the detail. One needs rather a dry acoustic to

Noel Rawsthorne5:41

Play the Bach.

Noel Rawsthorne5:43

Are you also choirmaster? No. I hold a unique position in that we have an organist and choir master at Liverpool.

Presenter5:50

Is there never argument between choir master and organist? This would seem that uh there's a a kind of dichotomy that could creep in here.

Noel Rawsthorne5:57

Ah, well my colleague Ronald Wan is uh

Noel Rawsthorne6:00

Also an ex chorister like me.

Noel Rawsthorne6:03

We were both brought up in the cathedral, so we think alike, and musically we think alike, and we rarely have a joke between us. If there is any dichotomy, the organist can always blot it out, which I say I always win.

Presenter6:13

I always win. Yes, of course. What about your children? Are they musical? You have three, I believe.

Presenter6:20

Yes, I have

Noel Rawsthorne6:21

I have uh three children.

Noel Rawsthorne6:23

all of whom are musical.

Noel Rawsthorne6:25

Uh Christine plays the piano and flute.

Noel Rawsthorne6:28

Christopher plays the trumpet.

Noel Rawsthorne6:31

David plays the piano and violin, and sometimes it sounds like a musical academy when I get home at night.

Presenter6:40

How do you plan your career, Noel? You're at the cathedral, busily at the cathedral, of course, on Sundays.

Noel Rawsthorne6:47

Yes, weekends mainly, sometimes in the weekdays. But other than that I lecture at tr at Saint Catherine's College of Education in Liverpool, where I enjoy working with students.

Presenter6:59

And then you have recitals and recordings. You travel a great deal.

Noel Rawsthorne7:02

Yes, both in Great Britain and uh abroad. I've been to Russia three times. Any particular problems in performing in the USSR?

Presenter7:10

Yeah.

Noel Rawsthorne7:11

Um, not particularly. The organs are um very interesting. Sometimes they're old, sometimes they're very modern. One gets some amusing uh experiences. For instance, last year I was in

Noel Rawsthorne7:22

Yerevan in Armenia, and playing to an absolutely packed audience, and I went on, set my combinations on the organ,

Noel Rawsthorne7:32

and put the first corps down, and absolutely nothing happened.

Noel Rawsthorne7:36

So I turned to my assistant, and out of the corner of my mouth I said, Will you switch the organ on, please?

Noel Rawsthorne7:44

and, as you know, the some organs have switches rather like the ignition switches on cars. And he turned round to me and said, I'm sorry, there is no key.

Noel Rawsthorne7:56

So we both, you know, not speaking any Russian, could hardly turn round and say, I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen, we cannot start the organ because there is no ignition key. So we sort of did a mime and walked off and we found the organ builder uh drinking wine in the basement and he had the keys in his pocket, so we started all over again.

Presenter8:15

Yes. Which is the finest organ you ever played on, which has given you most pleasure and satisfaction?

Noel Rawsthorne8:20

Well, I've been

Noel Rawsthorne8:23

abroad many times and played all over England. I'm always glad to get back to my own organist Liverpool Cathedral.

Presenter8:29

Which is the worst organ you've ever played on?

Noel Rawsthorne8:32

Well, that shall be nameless, but it was in the north of England when I spent as much time picking up notes and pushing up notes as putting them down. Do compose yourself.

Noel Rawsthorne8:45

I haven't done until quite recently when I

Noel Rawsthorne8:48

composed four works in the summer for performance by the cathedral choir.

Presenter8:52

You have, of course, to do a great deal of improvisation, or vamping till ready, one could say.

Noel Rawsthorne8:57

Oh, vamping till ready, this is quite common, particularly at weddings. You know, very often the bride is twenty minutes, half an hour late on occasions, and one is waiting to go into here comes the bride, so we have to be very adept at at improvising, waiting to go into the chord of B-flat major, you know, for anything up to half an hour.