Professor Francis Camps

Presenter0:00

This download is the only extract the BBC has of this edition of Desert Island Discs. The presenter was Roy Plumley.

Professor Francis Camps0:08

Before the war there were only three pathologists in the whole of East Anglia. Really? As a result of the war, more pathologists were trained.

Professor Francis Camps0:17

and Sir Samuel Betson, who is another of my great heroes, suggests that I should go to the London.

Professor Francis Camps0:23

And I started a department at the London in 1945. Yes.

Presenter0:28

You became home office pathologist.

Presenter0:30

And uh

Presenter0:31

Reader and then

Presenter0:33

afterwards Professor of Forensic Medicine at the University of London.

Presenter0:37

I I've been interested to learn that that a tremendous amount of the deduction which in detective stories is the work of the detective inspector is in fact contributed by your specialized scientists.

Presenter0:49

Well, the manager

Professor Francis Camps0:50

in charge of a case.

Professor Francis Camps0:52

is in fact.

Professor Francis Camps0:54

The Investigating Officer.

Professor Francis Camps0:57

And once you start to get emotionally involved as a scientist, you're lost.

Professor Francis Camps1:02

What you have to do is teamwork and help him.

Presenter1:06

Yeah.

Professor Francis Camps1:07

Uh

Presenter1:07

Correlate the lot. Yes. Now you have yourself founded the British Academy of Forensic Sciences. What correlation of science does the Academy cover?

Professor Francis Camps1:17

Well, this the idea of the Academy, which I I was not the only person who founded it.

Professor Francis Camps1:22

because we couldn't have found it if we hadn't had some very eminent lawyers and scientists and doctors, was cross-fertilization of the professions.

Presenter1:30

Yes.

Professor Francis Camps1:31

The average lawyer knows nothing about science.

Professor Francis Camps1:35

The average doctor knows very little about law, and the average scientist knows even less about both of them.

Presenter1:40

So this brings together psychology, textiles, handwriting, all these innumerable adjuncts to the detection of the.

Professor Francis Camps1:49

That's it.

Presenter1:50

I came across a newspaper piece about a day in your life, Francis.

Presenter1:54

This particular day included eight inquests, one post mortem, an appearance at the Old Bailey as an expert witness, and a journey of about two hundred miles to make a speech.

Presenter2:03

Was that very much exaggerated?

Professor Francis Camps2:05

No, not in those days.

Professor Francis Camps2:07

The one thing we've tried to do is to slow this down.

Professor Francis Camps2:10

Yes. And that is the great advantage when you get to my age, that you can do it slower and rather better, I think. Although perhaps you don't think as fast.

Professor Francis Camps2:18

Uh

Presenter2:18

So

Presenter2:20

The most famous murder trials with which you've been connected, the SETI case you reconstructed for us recently on television.

Professor Francis Camps2:26

Yeah.

Presenter2:27

A fascinating case. I thought it was fascinating. And a lot of it

Professor Francis Camps2:30

took place near your home in Essex, seven miles away. In the in the marshes. Yes, I can remember vividly, you see, when Sette disappeared in London. We wondered where his body was going to turn up.

Professor Francis Camps2:43

Because of course where the body turned up we would get the case, you see? And then they he uh Hume dumps it from the air in the Essex marshes. But only the torso.

Professor Francis Camps2:53

Well, yes, he dumped the other bits, we've never found them since.

Presenter2:56

Excellent.

Professor Francis Camps2:57

Uh

Presenter2:57

Then there was the Christie trial. Putting all those bits together must have presented problems.

Professor Francis Camps3:02

I think that Christy

Professor Francis Camps3:04

represented something which is much more interested from the point of view of the future. That's to say we did much more than we needed to, and yet we've been able to use what we did then later. How do you mean you did more than you needed to? Well we did the reconstruction of the bodies.

Professor Francis Camps3:21

And uh

Professor Francis Camps3:22

You may say it wasn't necessary after he'd admitted doing it.

Professor Francis Camps3:26

But that reconstruction has formed the basis of a lot of future cases, you know.

Presenter3:30

Mm.

Presenter3:32

There was a case you were concerned with in Germany of a fake suicide that that the two cracked rather neatly.

Professor Francis Camps3:38

Uh

Professor Francis Camps3:39

That of course was absolutely fascinating.

Professor Francis Camps3:42

Waters is uh

Professor Francis Camps3:44

Buried in Cologne Military Cemetery.

Professor Francis Camps3:48

as a suicide.

Professor Francis Camps3:50

Ultimately we dug him up a year later on a very cold morning.

Professor Francis Camps3:55

and uh we were able to prove that he died of an uncombiant blow, which is the first one that's ever been described.

Presenter4:01

After a year.

Professor Francis Camps4:02

After a year.

Presenter4:04

We've been talking about cases in which you helped to gain a conviction. There have, of course, been cases in which you've helped to prove innocence.

Professor Francis Camps4:11

Well, that has been our philosophy.

Professor Francis Camps4:14

That if you

Professor Francis Camps4:15

do only prosecution cases. You get completely sort of

Professor Francis Camps4:19

submerged in the idea that prosecution was always right.

Professor Francis Camps4:24

But he it isn't always right.

Professor Francis Camps4:27

The thing that terrifies me are the people sitting in prison, and there are a limited number of them.

Professor Francis Camps4:32

who know that they're innocent and that they have been convicted by, as it were, force of circumstances.

Presenter4:38

Uh

Professor Francis Camps4:39

France's Islam

Presenter4:40

Is there such a thing as the rare, indetectable poison we read about in fiction?

Presenter4:46

Very few. But there are such things.

Presenter4:49

Yeah.

Professor Francis Camps4:49

From where?

Professor Francis Camps4:51

Well, if I told you, but no, but

Professor Francis Camps4:56

I think out in Africa and in the Far East and places like that we still have a lot of herbs.

Professor Francis Camps5:02

But we really don't know how they work.

Professor Francis Camps5:04

You've come

Presenter5:05

come across cases in which you have been suspicious.

Presenter5:08

You've tested the effects of arsenic on yourself.

Professor Francis Camps5:11

Yeah.

Professor Francis Camps5:12

It's fascinating actually.

Professor Francis Camps5:15

And until you do this, you don't realize what sort of a thing happens in our cynical poisoning. You can't miss it when you swallow it.

Professor Francis Camps5:24

And so when you get a person who never complains of it, well then you've got to think again as to whether they haven't taken it deliberately.

Presenter5:31

The effect of arsenic can be detected after very many years in a body of minerals.

Professor Francis Camps5:35

At least

Presenter5:36

Now as well as current crime, that that leads to a train of thought, as well as current crime, you've been called in on archaeological work.

Professor Francis Camps5:44

I think this is the most fascinating of all, actually.

Professor Francis Camps5:47

I get much more excitement out of

Professor Francis Camps5:50

History. Yes. Not only that, because it makes me go back and read.

Professor Francis Camps5:55

For example, we examined the shirt that Charles I wore.

Professor Francis Camps5:59

When he had his head chopped off.

Professor Francis Camps6:01

And the result of that I I I inquired as to what happened, you see. And one of the great features of of of of people who are executed

Professor Francis Camps6:10

for um political reasons, is that frightened of appearing afraid.

Professor Francis Camps6:15

And so Charles the First wore two shirts that day.

Professor Francis Camps6:19

In order not to

Presenter6:20

The sugar

Professor Francis Camps6:20

Uh

Presenter6:21

As Home Office pathologist you had the opportunity of performing the post mortems on the bodies of a

Presenter6:26

quite a number of executed prisoners. Were you able to form any overall conclusion from that work?

Professor Francis Camps6:33

I think the most interesting thing is that none of them lost weight.

Professor Francis Camps6:37

Once they realize they'd been convicted properly.

Professor Francis Camps6:42

Uh they were quite prepared to uh

Professor Francis Camps6:45

Suffer the the final penalty. This doesn't mean I like it.

Presenter6:48

But this is the

Presenter6:50

Like that.

Professor Francis Camps6:50

Uh

Presenter6:50

But the whole process of of the

Presenter6:53

Uh capital punishment is so hideous. I mean, playing drafts with the warders, waiting for the

Presenter6:58

final date and so forth. You are suggesting that all the men on whom you performed post-mortems were guilty.

Professor Francis Camps7:05

Oh, they were obviously guilty.

Professor Francis Camps7:08

I mean, my experience, and I've had a lot of experience of these people.

Professor Francis Camps7:13

is that if they're not guilty

Professor Francis Camps7:15

They will they will shout from the housetops.

Professor Francis Camps7:19

And in fact, we know not only that,

Professor Francis Camps7:21

From Earl Stanley Gardner's Court of Last Resort we've had examples of people who were guilty.

Professor Francis Camps7:27

But we're convicted on the wrong evidence. And they they hate this. They take a very dim view of it, frankly.

Professor Francis Camps7:33

Uh

Presenter7:33

Whereas if they're guilty and they're convicted on the right evidence, then they will settle down and rationalize and gain weight.