Sir Geoffrey Jackson

Speaker 10:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. For rights reasons, the music is shorter than on the original broadcast. The presenter is Roy Plomley. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:26

Our castaway this week is a diplomat who's already experienced the extremes of loneliness when kept in solitary confinement for eight months by terrorists in Uruguay. It's Sir Jeffrey Jackson. Sir Jeffrey, I can't recommend life on our desert island, but I believe it'd be better than your last experience. How big a part does music play in your life?

Presenter0:47

It's always played an enormous part from being a very small child and even more so now. I listened to a great deal of music and there was always a good deal of music in my home as a small boy. A musical family? I think it's true to say that. Yes, my mother was an extremely lively and competent pianist.

Presenter1:09

And nothing gave her greater joy than to accompany my father at the piano in, I suppose in retrospect, a rather Victorian style. I remember we children used to get the giggles whenever we saw it and heard my dear father singing, you know, the storm fiend and Hydrius the Cretan and Songs of the Fair. But in retrospect, he did it very well and they both loved it. From what point of view is music helpful in isolation, in evoking the past, in bringing great performances and cheering you up?

Presenter1:46

What has been your

Presenter1:48

Main plan in choosing these records.

Presenter1:51

Music covers virtually everything from intellectual activity to physical exercise, practically, I find. I mean, you know, the old phrase about opening up the pipes and so on. And when one's in captivity, oh, there were times, for example, when there was very loud background noise where I was. Well, frankly, when that was going on, I opened up my pipes and let it blast, and it did me a great deal of good. But of course, above and beyond that, it's very enlivening to the spirit. I mean, the whole business of sorrow finds a swift release in song, you know. What's the first record you've chosen? It's a very old English folk song, which was the first thing that I remember ever singing, as I recall, having to do my stint at the family musical functions. And also, it served the purpose that I was describing of enlivening the spirit. It's called Begone Dull Care, and I've found it jolly useful at many times in my life, not least during the last year.

Sir Geoffrey Jackson3:00

Long time has all these hand in here, and say thou wouldst be killed, but if ain't thou gift, thou never shall have like me.

Sir Geoffrey Jackson3:10

But skill will make me a man today.

Presenter3:21

Begon Dalkir sung by the Georgian singers.

Presenter3:25

What's your second record? What's that to be? It's a jazz record of one's salad days in the 30s, a famous old tune of the time, when day is done, but played in a rather remarkable fashion. There was an outfit operating, whom I'm sure you knew in those days, called Le Hot Club de France, or something like that. Le Cantette. Le La Cantette, du Hot Club de France, and their guitarist was a perfectly wonderful gypsy called Django Reinhardt. And I've always marveled at him because I gather he was an uneducated man in the technical sense of the word. And he also had a completely gammy left hand as a result of his caravan setting far on him. But with two fingers, he could certainly produce music that most people would be very glad to do with five times that number. And

Presenter4:23

I would certainly rate him, if one can use the phrase, as the segovia of the jazz guitar.

Presenter4:30

Anyhow, Wenday is done, as I recall, presents his style very nicely indeed.

Presenter5:06

Django Reinhardt with the Quintet of the Hot Club of France.

Presenter5:10

What part of the country do you come from, Sir Geoffrey? I'm a North Countryman, a Lancashireman by birth. Is there a family tradition for the diplomatic service? No, no, not at all. My family were always farmers. In fact, if my grandfather had gone in for trying to found prematurely a national opera company, I would have probably been a farmer today. How did you start?

Presenter5:35

Well, when I was 14, I read a book by Bruce Lockhart about the British diplomacy and the life of a consular official, as a matter of fact.

Presenter5:45

And I never wanted to do anything else after that and I've never had any reason to change my mind. Yes.

Presenter5:51

What was your first overseas posting? I was sent to the Middle East, to Beirut, to learn Arabic, amongst other things. I began life as an Arabist, yes, and then found myself becoming a Latin Americanist.

Presenter6:07

If the w world exists how long were you in Uruguay?

Presenter6:13

A year and a half.

Presenter6:15

Um well

Presenter6:18

In total, more than two years, but functioning a year and a half. Yes. Tell us about that country, main exports.

Presenter6:27

Largely uh rural produce in the sense of meat uh and wool. And we've always been great importers of both. A prosperous economy or or not?

Sir Geoffrey Jackson6:37

Uh

Presenter6:39

Essentially a prosperous economy. A country after all which produces so much food, far more food than its own inhabitants can consume, is basically a prosperous country. The degree of its prosperity is solely a function, I would say, of organization. Yes.

Presenter6:57

Now in Uruguay there was a lot of trouble from a left wing urban guerrilla movement. Did they have any particular grievance or was it just a revolutionary left wing?

Presenter7:08

I would uh say that probably uh an element of both.

Presenter7:12

There is, after all, a tendency throughout the world amongst people of usually university age, for example,

Presenter7:24

to find a cause for frustration in their society, as I think young people have always found. And of course, again, I suspect with the influence of the media and expanded education,

Presenter7:40

young people aren't so ready to wait as they used to be. They want instant social justice, instant this, instant everything.

Presenter7:54

Though they had kidnapped six people before you, one of whom had been murdered, did you have any suspicion that you were on their list?

Presenter8:02

A suspicion, no, but it was reasonable to suppose that it was liable to happen.

Presenter8:09

One was in a position, I think, where any foreign representative was exposed to this kind of risk. And of course, Britain, having such a close connection with Uruguayan history, rather stuck out as a lightning conductor, I suppose. Yes. Your kidnapping was quite an elaborate operation, despite security precautions. You were taken on your way from your home to the embassy. Where were you taken to? Did you ever find out? Oh, no. No, there was no possibility of knowing that. One was blindfolded, wrapped up, sealed, signed, and delivered. Right.

Presenter8:53

We will talk about the conditions of your imprisonment in a moment. Let us now have your third record.

Presenter8:58

It's a song of Schubert's.

Presenter9:02

Sung by Dietrich Fischer Diskau and it's called Andy Musik to Musik. I've again found it a great joy all my life.

Sir Geoffrey Jackson9:21

How did it

Sir Geoffrey Jackson9:34

Formister slaves feel the Christmas

Sir Geoffrey Jackson9:46

Frusto.

Sir Geoffrey Jackson10:02

I saw

Presenter10:11

Schubert's anti-music song by Tietrich Fischer Diska.

Presenter10:15

Now, you were held.

Presenter10:18

In what sort of conditions was it a dungeon, a cellar, a hut? Technically, I suppose you'd call it a dungeon. It was underground and it was composed largely of rock and cement and fingernail breaking materials of that nature. Dry? Very damp, to the contrary. Very damp. Yes.

Presenter10:41

Now, according to the British press, there were thousands of troops and police are looking for you. Now, if they'd found this hideout,

Presenter10:48

What would have happened to you?

Presenter10:50

I was told that uh at this moment one would have unfortunately to be uh eliminated. Now as it was an illegal organization, was there any possibility that the British government or the Uruguayan government would have negotiated with this group?

Presenter11:06

I know that it was never the intention of the British Government to engage in any kind of ransoming.

Presenter11:15

And I think we were all agreed that it just wasn't on. How many of these characters, these topomanos, were about the place?

Presenter11:24

They varied enormously. There was a standing guard of oh, it could be three, four, five. It varied a good deal. But other people came in and out. Sometimes there were quite a lot of people around. You could have given descriptions of these afterwards.

Presenter11:39

Well, I could never have described them, in fact, because I never saw their faces. They wore kind of, I was going to say, masks or hoods. They were more or less like a pillowcase pulled down over their head with holes for their eyes to look out of. And all one could see was their eyes. Eyes, of course, are the window of the soul. And one, I think, can learn to understand quite a lot of people's personality through their eyes, but not to recognize them.

Presenter12:09

You said these were chaps of university age. They were educated men. I had the impression that the great majority of them were highly educated young men, yes, young women. What was the food like? Was it adequate? It was adequate, yes, and quite wholesome, a little monotonous, but not to complain. I normally live on a diet of sorts, so I'm accustomed to that. Was there any contact with the outside world? No news of your wife, your family? I was by accident, I rather feel able to stumble on the fact that my wife had sent me a birthday message, which they read to me, and as a result of that, I was allowed to send one message back, which she did in fact receive. So you could keep track of time.

Presenter12:58

It took a bit of doing, but yes, I was able to keep track. I was a day art when I finally emerged. Was it artificial light the whole time? Oh, yes.

Presenter13:09

Did you have anything to read?

Presenter13:11

At the beginning, no. Then after a while, one or two books, rather dusty, well-found ones that were discovered lying around. And then after quite a while, my hosts really went to obviously a considerable effort to feed me with reading material. So I had books to read, some of which I read many times over, but with great pleasure. You were never let out for periods of exercise? Oh, no, I was always within the... Well, I was going to say the one space. I did in fact occupy two cells in different places, and I was moved from one to the other about halfway through, I suppose. But apart from those two rooms, whatever you wish to call them, I never set my foot anywhere. When you were released, were you given any notice or just taken out and blindfolded and dumped somewhere? It was spun on me immediately. I was given about five minutes to get myself sorted out.

Presenter14:12

This must have been a marvellous moment.

Presenter14:14

It was indeed, yes, it was um uh quite an overwhelming moment. But of course I was so busy collecting my clothes together and beating the dust out of them and so on that I really didn't give myself time to think about it. Let's break here for another record. What shall we have?

Presenter14:32

Will

Presenter14:34

I've always been very fond of Latin American music in general. And one kind that's becoming increasingly attractive to me is a Brazilian form of music that I think most people refer to as Baya style. And the classic example of it, the girl from Ipamina.

Presenter14:56

And I think it's a kind of genuine folk music, uh as against this abuse of the word. Lots of people say folk music when they really mean just protest songs. But this is authentic folk music of the very best kind.

Speaker 215:18

Okay.

Sir Geoffrey Jackson15:18

Eyako is a machine that Keuja Vipasa.

Speaker 215:19

He's not

Speaker 215:25

Ah porque esto danso signo.

Sir Geoffrey Jackson15:31

Ah work a ton of

Sir Geoffrey Jackson15:35

Uh

Presenter15:40

Lost match or combos.

Presenter15:43

Now, Sir Geoffrey, you had a few books. Could you do any writing?

Presenter15:47

At the beginning, no.

Presenter15:49

Then after a while I started to write.

Presenter15:53

Uh I was allowed to write. But certain things I still went on writing more in my head, because I suppose they were of a a personal and emotional nature, and uh I suspect although I have been accused of being uh

Presenter16:12

A Lebanese Latin American from Lancashire. I suspect that beneath it all I am still a very conventional Englishman and I don't like to demonstrate my feelings on my cuffs too freely. What were you writing? Verse? Stories? Stories, verse, a bit of everything. Translations, translations in my own mind, translations even from the Latin, for example. All kinds of things, anything to keep my mind busy.

Presenter16:42

Now, with the possibility that the hideout could be discovered any day, you were virtually under sentence of death, potential sentence of death, the whole time. Did anxiety take any sort of pattern? Did it increase as time went on, or were there periods of resignation? Well, truthfully, I can't say that the thought of anxiety ever entered my mind. I think that there were times when I felt, I think I once used the word very desolate. Yes. You did pray.

Presenter17:14

Oh, yes, indeed.

Presenter17:16

Had you always been a practising Christian?

Presenter17:19

Tom

Presenter17:21

Insofar as one can be a practising Christian, yes. What form of prayer did you find most useful? Affirmation, supplication?

Presenter17:29

Oh, I think uh

Presenter17:32

To condense it all in one single word, uh praise.

Presenter17:36

Thanksgiving, if you want.

Presenter17:39

Are you convinced that you were given strength through that prayer?

Presenter17:43

I haven't the slightest doubt about it, but not so much my own prayer. I've said this before, and I shall always go on maintaining it. I think uh other people's prayer was the most important factor there.

Presenter17:54

Let's have another record. It's a very amusing little thing. It's intended to give fun, I think. And it's translated into English, The Little Train of the Khaipira. And it really describes a very small, modest little train, about 26 inches round the chest, which is hauling itself out to go chuffing through the jungle and up the mountains, you know, I think I can, I think I can, and so on, and finally makes it and away he goes. It's perfectly charming.

Presenter19:20

The little train of the Khaipira

Presenter19:22

By Pila Lobos, played by the Cleveland Pops Orchestra, conducted by Louie Lane. Let's go straight on to your next record, number six.

Presenter19:31

This one is by dear Johann Sebastian Bach, his Toccata and Fug in D minor, because it's such a majestic thing with this wonderful monk clumping around on the pedals with his football boots and so on. I think you'll enjoy this one.

Presenter20:47

The Bach, D minor Toccata, and the wonderful monk in question, Father Sebastian Wolfe at the organ of Buckfast Abbey.

Presenter20:57

Now we know, Sir Geoffrey, that you could take the life of a castaway. You could face the isolation.

Presenter21:03

How comfortable could you make yourself? Are you a handyman?

Presenter21:08

I have that reputation, yes. Good. You could build a shelter of some sort. I think that given a suitable penknife, I could, mm, with luck, make most things. We'll assume you had a suitable penknife in your pocket. We can't guarantee it. You could live off the land as far as food goes.

Presenter21:25

I think so, yes. Off the land and off the sea. Off the sea especially, yes. And uh off uh the tops of the trees, if there was a nice nest to raid from time to time. Would you try to escape? Certainly, yes. Do you know anything about small boat?

Presenter21:42

Not a great deal, but I think enough to help me on my way. I've crewed a little bit. Good.

Presenter21:47

Letab record number seven.

Presenter21:50

Record number seven is quite a change of pace.

Presenter21:55

It's uh an Argentine

Presenter21:58

A mess.

Presenter22:00

called the Misa Criollia.

Presenter22:02

And a lot of people aren't too keen on this new church music, nor am I as a rule. But to me this one does hit the mark.

Sir Geoffrey Jackson22:15

El Ansatura de la Tierra ha sabosombre.

Sir Geoffrey Jackson22:21

Has a los humbles que ención en laza tu bio del la tien ha los humbles.

Sir Geoffrey Jackson22:30

As a mosquito, I love you.

Presenter22:43

The Gloria from The Mise Criolla.

Presenter22:46

Which brings us now to your last record. Watch that.

Presenter22:49

It's Brahms's intermezzo in C major, Opus one one nine, number three.

Presenter22:57

And it has a particularly pleasant connotation for me. Years and years ago in Latin America, over 20 years ago,

Presenter23:06

Solomon was a guest in my house.

Presenter23:09

And

Presenter23:10

He had found out surreptitiously what was my favorite music, and he introduced into a concert of Chopin this very piece which he played for me in person.

Presenter23:23

Well, we can't find a recording of Solomon having played this piece, so who shall play it in his stead?

Presenter23:30

If you've got the recording by Clifford Cousin, that would do splendidly.

Presenter24:32

Clifford Curzon was playing that Intemezzo in C major by Brahms.

Presenter24:37

Now, if you could take just one disk out of the H you've chosen, which would it be?

Presenter24:43

I think fairly certainly it would be the Ramirez Misa Criolla and one luxury to take with you.

Presenter24:52

I've always intended if I had the time and the leisure

Presenter24:56

To learn to play the classical Spanish guitar properly. So, if you don't mind, if you can cough up a really fine specimen, that's what I'll strap onto my back as I go overboard. That shall be done. And one book apart from the Bible and complete works of Shakespeare. Oh, undoubtedly, it would be my dear friend Professor Tolkien. That is, if you allow a trilogy, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, which is a splendid, oh, science fiction, great literature combination of the pursuit of good and the conquest of evil. Wonderful book to read seven days a week. Right. And thank you, Sir Geoffrey Jackson, for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Presenter25:42

Thank you very much for keeping me company on this little island. Goodbye, everyone.