Roula Khalaf

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:46

My castaway this week is the journalist Rula Khalaf. She's the editor of the Financial Times, august Bible of city traders, business leaders and policymakers. These are challenging times for traditional newspapers. Advertising revenue is falling and digital technology and social media have transformed how people consume news and information. An increasingly fractured media landscape is also having an impact on the type of stories that cut through. But she's no stranger to challenge. She was born in Beirut and grew up during the height of the Lebanese civil war. Fascinated by the foreign correspondents who stayed at the nearby Commodore Hotel, she set her heart on becoming a journalist like them and moved to the US, where she started her career at Forbes magazine in New York. She got her first scoop exposing the business practices of Jordan Belfort, the so-called wolf of Wall Street. Do look out for the character based on her in Martin Scorsese's Biopic. She joined the FT in 1995 as a foreign correspondent. Her beats included Syria, Iran, Iraq, and covering the Arab Spring. In 2020, she became the paper's editor-in-chief, managing over 600 journalists around the world whilst leading the charge to win over new readers beyond the boardroom. She says, Glamorous is not the word that I would use for my job. It's fulfilling, it's fascinating, it's exciting. But we're very calm here, calm and professional, and always have been. Ruler Khalaf, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you for having me.

Presenter2:14

So colleagues and fellow journalists have described you as a very hands-on editor. How often do you find yourself in the newsroom?

Presenter2:21

Every day, possibly every hour. And when they describe me as a hands-on, I don't know whether, I mean, that's their nice way of describing me because they also describe me as very interventionist. Oh, okay. So, this could be double-edged. It is definitely double-edged. I think some of them like it. Others may think of no, not again, and especially on stories that I know intimately. I think that.

Roula Khalaf2:29

I mean, because they

Speaker 22:34

Could be dope.

Roula Khalaf2:34

Uh

Roula Khalaf2:45

Yeah.

Presenter2:47

I can be too much, but there's nothing like running a big story.

Presenter2:51

I love the buzz of a newsroom, but I'm also, I think, a reporter at heart. And do you miss that? Do you miss being on the ground, part of you?

Presenter3:00

Definitely, especially in moments of big crises like a possible revolution in Iran. I've covered other periods of unrest. But I can contribute differently today as well. So I'm reporting even if I'm not writing. I'm reporting and just running to the newsroom and telling other reporters what I just found or how I can help them. I see my job today as being sort of a support system for everybody else and I might be able to reach people that they can't reach. What do you think is the biggest challenge for journalism today? Because you've got a very volatile kind of current events landscape and then also the platforms are changing too.

Speaker 23:07

You know

Roula Khalaf3:08

Uh

Speaker 23:08

Uh

Presenter3:44

So I tend to think of it as three forces that are challenging journalism today. The first force is something we were used to, which is the freedom of the media is under threat. But the freedom of the media is now under threat in more countries and including in the US, frankly. I have to worry about my correspondence in the US in a way that I never used to. Related to that is that the truth itself is challenged today. You can have different narratives about how you got to a certain situation or different opinions. But today

Presenter4:23

What we are witnessing is an attempt at creating a different narrative of the truth. And there are different narratives of the truth. And then you have all the economic headwinds and the technological headwinds. So on the economic side, as you know, a lot of local journalism has now disappeared because

Presenter4:41

Creating quality journalism is very expensive, and they simply can't afford it anymore. And in an AI world, the truth is challenged, but there's also a threat of disintermediation. I'm sure that you've seen deep fakes everywhere on social media these days. So I think that this is a

Roula Khalaf4:59

Do you see?

Presenter5:03

It's a pivotal time and it's an existential time for journalism and for the media industry. So, how do you respond to those many prongs of that challenge that's coming at you? Well, in some ways, we are lucky because trust, which I always say trust is really our currency. So, I think that you have to maintain extremely, extremely high standards in order to protect that trust. Well, Rula, it is time to go to your music. Tell me about your first.

Presenter5:35

The first one is a Genesis song. I associate Genesis Jethratell diastrates very much with teenaged angst. And two of my best friends, when I was a teenager growing up in Beirut, we had the Saturday afternoon sort of crying sessions where we would get together, talk about boys and, you know, our lives, our families. And, you know, one of us would end up crying. That was just kind of... There's plenty to cry about when you're a teenage girl. You just gotta let the hormones out sometimes. So the one I picked is misunderstanding.

Speaker 36:04

It was that was just kind of writing about.

Roula Khalaf6:10

Yeah.

Speaker 36:13

There must be some sony standing

Speaker 36:19

Must be some kind of mistake.

Speaker 36:25

Waited in the rain for hours

Speaker 36:31

You are named.

Presenter6:34

Now it's not like me to say the right thing.

Presenter6:40

She could've

Speaker 26:41

A call to let me know.

Presenter6:44

Genesis and misunderstanding. So Ruler Khalaf, you were born in Beirut in 1965, the middle of three children. What are your memories of the city before the war broke out?

Presenter6:55

Well, I was very very young before the war broke out, and many of my memories of Beirut are very related to the war.

Presenter7:03

But I have sort of snapshots in my head of picnics in the mountains with extended family. You know, my mother wearing this beautiful long green dress because my parents used to go to parties. And it was much later on that I knew that this was kind of the heyday of Lebanon, the Paris of the Middle East, the Switzerland of the Middle East. The thing I remember most is spending summers at my grandparents. You know, we call it the mountains. I mean, it's about 40 minutes from Beirut. So memories of childhood are very, very tied to that house, to the cat and the vine leaves. It's very sort of very basic. My memories are very, very basic of that time. It sounds peaceful, though, when you describe peacefulness. Very delicate. Yeah, happy. Very, very happy, very peaceful.

Roula Khalaf7:26

The

Speaker 37:57

Very delicate fun.

Presenter8:02

So tell me more about your parents. Let's start with your mother, Therese. How would you describe her?

Presenter8:08

My mother met my dad. She had a more important job than him. They worked in the same company and sort of lent him money at some point and that's how they got together. But then when she had children, she gave up work and she was the family was absolutely everything to her. And by family, I don't only mean, you know, my brothers and I, but my dad as well. We've always had this joke that dad is home. That means that my mom is peeling an apple because my dad loved to have apples when he got home. But she was just a very, very kind and very protective mother to the point where, you know, I mean, I remember I was, I don't know, maybe 30 years old. I go home on holiday and she'd still give me sort of spending money. I mean, I was totally independent. She'd still put it. Mom, I'm a war correspondent. Do you need spending money? And she'll put something in my pocket. She sounds wonderful. She was. Sadly, we lost her about 17 years ago. I'm sorry. I mean, she gave up working, as you say, when she had you. But she sounds like she was very determined that you would succeed. Oh, absolutely. She really drove me and wanted me to be absolutely independent. And you have to remember that when you grow up...

Speaker 39:02

Mom, I'm a walk, I responded.

Roula Khalaf9:09

Tenth what

Presenter9:33

during a t a time of instability. Your parents don't know what's coming. And so they want to equip you best they can in order to sort of send you out in into the world so that you can make it on your own.

Roula Khalaf9:39

And so

Presenter9:49

And what about your father, Abbas? He had a very senior job at the American Life Insurance Company. Tell me about that. Yes, so my dad was during the day he was sort of a manager and he also loved politics and he was in government for a while when the Civil War broke out. He was economics minister. He was economics minister. And my father has been you know, a huge influence on me and my brothers. He has an incredible presence. I mean you see him, he walks into a room and people turn their head. He's very tall, lanky, very good looking man. And also you're smiling ear to ear. As soon as you started thinking about him, you just started beaming.

Roula Khalaf9:55

Yeah.

Roula Khalaf10:28

Also you smile.

Presenter10:34

Yes, I've just seen him two weeks ago and it's, you know, one of the small pleasures of life that I can still I call him every single day. And I think that my dad was always wise but also extremely, extremely ethical. And he was also very attached to a secular version of Lebanon. Lebanon is a confessional system based on different religious groups. They get it's like a pie and it's divided. So the President has to be a Christian, the Speaker of Parliament, a Shia Muslim, the Prime Minister, a Sunni. And the civil war was partly about this balance of power. There were a lot of other factors. But it is always the struggle in Lebanon is always over who gets a bigger share. And, you know, my father and a lot of other people were just like a merit-based system. And I think that is mainly what drove him into politics.

Speaker 211:34

Uh

Presenter11:36

Rula, it's time to go to the music. Your second choice today. What is disc number two and why are you taking it to the island? Disc number two is Dernier Dance by Angela.

Presenter11:48

I became quite obsessed with this song more recently when I heard my son, my youngest son, who's 16, play it on the piano. So I started listening to it and I loved it. And I think one of the reasons is because it is about sort of dancing as an escape. And I have always felt that dancing is an escape. I don't know whether that's a remnant of that period you mentioned in Lebanon, the sort of the the pre-Civil War, but

Presenter12:20

Lebanon also knows how to have a good time despite everything and sometimes because of the instability and the war. And you know, I love dancing and so it really spoke to me.

Speaker 312:50

Yeah.

Presenter13:05

Den Dans in Dila. Ruler Calaf, in nineteen seventy five, uh the fifteen year Lebanese civil war broke out. How did life change for you and your family?

Presenter13:19

The first thing that changed is that we couldn't stay where we were living. It got to be too dangerous because we were very close to the green line which separated East and West Beirut. And this is where you had a lot of the violence broke out. So we had to move and we went to stay with my grandparents, then rented a house near them. Then one night we were just dragged from there and we stayed in a villa in some kind of forest. I remember asking my dad once, were we squatting? Like, whose house is, no, no, no, no, no, no. We called the owners and they said this was safe. And it got to a point where, you know, my dad decided that it was too dangerous. And so we moved to Egypt. We lived in Cairo. My dad had decided to stay in Beirut. And most of my memories there is my mom just being very worried about him. So he stayed behind. What was he doing? Was he able to work or was he engaged in politics? What was that? I remember he stayed in a hotel in Beirut. And because he'd been a government minister when the war broke out, I think that it was for both his sort of activities that he felt he had to stay. And he would come for periods of time. So we spent a year in Egypt, then we went back. We thought it was the end of the war. And, you know, every time we went back, we'd change school. And then we were there for a few years, then we had to move again. We went to Greece and we lived in Athens for a couple of years, then again went back thinking the war was over, new school. It was a very interesting story. Yeah, I mean that uncertainty must have been so difficult to manage for your parents. You know, with three children to look after, did you see their anxieties, their worry?

Speaker 315:00

Yeah.

Presenter15:14

I certainly saw my mother's worry. She had this kind of tick where her, you know, left eyebrow lifted. And she always also, I mean, I remember times when we were in Beirut where she would just like clean frantically, just clean, clean, clean, and for no apparent reason. So there was always, we always felt when my mom was anxious and we knew something was wrong. I think for children, especially when you're quite young, your stability and your home, your safety is really around your parents. If you're with your parents, then you feel safe. And it's the parents who worry about the rest.

Roula Khalaf15:24

Yeah.

Speaker 215:50

Hmm.

Presenter15:51

So I don't think that we felt unsafe, you know, except yes, there were times when we had to, she had to wake us up and we'd have to hide between walls. But otherwise, most of what I remember is just the anxiety of my mother rather than my own or my siblings. But that can be quite tricky to manage, can't it? Because as a kid, you're taking this in, but you can't do anything about it. So that it definitely kind of must take a toll on you, have an effect on you. I mean, I wonder if you look back and you think, oh, that's why I do this, or you know, is there anything that you have gotten? There's things I do, and then there are things I feel. So things I do that I think are related to that time are: I've got this habit of always sleeping on the side of the bed that's closest to the door. I know that that's related to the way I grew up. I have to sleep in pajamas. I can't not sleep in pajamas. Like, I have to be ready every single day. And I'm not out of bed anymore. So I know that these are sort of practical things where it's less clear to me. And, you know, I haven't done any therapy, but I'm sure there is a psychological impact. What that psychological impact is, I've never really looked, frankly. I think it certainly made me a lot more resilient.

Speaker 316:25

Well, there's it.

Roula Khalaf16:47

And I'm not bad at it anymore.

Roula Khalaf17:08

Yeah.

Presenter17:13

I also feel that I'm not afraid of war. So I really am fearless when it comes to war. I'm not afraid, and that has obviously helped me a lot in my job.

Presenter17:25

At one point you lived near the Commodore Hotel where all the foreign correspondents who were covering the war stayed. When I say that name, you're smiling already. What what memories does it conjure up for you?

Presenter17:36

I knew of all the stories where militiamen would go in to meet journalists and there was just something, I mean perhaps stupidly, but something quite romantic about being a war correspondent. And so I think that contributed to what I then started to think I wanted to do. What captured you about it? What did that life seem to offer that you found attractive? To me it was adventure. It was a different way of looking at the situation that we were in, which was a situation of war and conflict. And these were people who sort of came and went and they were writing about us, but they weren't really stuck there. They weren't really living it.

Speaker 217:59

Yeah.

Speaker 317:59

Even distracted.

Roula Khalaf18:18

Won't really l

Presenter18:20

Ruler, it's time for some more music. Your third choice today. What are we going to hear next and why?

Presenter18:25

This is a song called Ornietl Bosta, the song of the bus. It's by Ziadrahbani. He's the son of Lebanon's most famous singer, Fay Rouz. He had a great influence on her. He was also very funny, and he had these plays that were, you know, they were mostly comedy. And this song comes out of one of these plays. And it talks about, in a way, I mean, it never mentions the war, it's just about a trip on a bus. But to me, it is about the absurdity of living in war. Normality and abnormality sort of coexisting. And this is how, you know, we all experienced the war. We had our normal life that was really, really abnormal.

Roula Khalaf19:10

I had the real boy

Roula Khalaf19:27

Zakartikiya Alniya

Roula Khalaf19:31

Uh with the character you need

Presenter19:39

Ughniat ul Buster by Ziyad Rakhbani.

Presenter19:44

Ruler Khalaf, was there a particular moment when you became aware of the power of words and storytelling?

Presenter19:52

I think that moment came when I was at university.

Presenter19:58

And I had a a professor by the name of John Keats.

Presenter20:04

who was encouraging us to just write feelings and connections. And I remember writing a piece. I I didn't know whether I was a good writer. I knew I wanted to write, but I didn't know whether I could be a good writer.

Presenter20:21

And I remember him talking to me after class one day and saying, this is very special. And it was, you know, it was a piece that was connected, obviously, to Lebanon. And the ability for me to sort of express myself, I mean, I'm not someone, notwithstanding the fact that I'm in front of you right now, I'm not someone who likes to talk about herself. So it was a kind of discovery for me that this is, you know, words are very important. They're an important tool. They're an important weapon. And you know what? I may have it. And so I think that was the moment. And I kept that piece. And I think it was about sort of the two sides of war, how war could also make you stronger. Living in war could also make you stronger. And I think perhaps that's why I've always carried that element of war.

Roula Khalaf20:38

No, I'm not someone who

Roula Khalaf20:44

That this

Roula Khalaf21:06

Yeah.

Presenter21:10

With me, rather than delving into how traumatic it might have been. Every writer starts as a reader. Were you the kind of kid who was reading the newspaper, listening to the news as well as reading books? I read the local newspapers. I think my first link to journalism was the fact that my dad is at heart a writer and did write regularly. He writes from time to time. But it's also just the discussion at the dinner table, the fact that it was always about politics. But it was also the fact that news was so important to our lives. We'd have to listen to so many different radio stations. Everything was partisan. So you had to triangulate and try to figure out what was going on. It wasn't just one radio station that would inform you. You really had to listen to every single party's radio station. So this is what I grew up in: is this sort of thirst for information and this sort of family interest in politics and what it means.

Presenter22:18

Your path to becoming a journalist wasn't straightforward. In nineteen eighty three, you started a degree in architecture at the American University of Beirut. So why had you chosen to study architecture?

Presenter22:31

Well, I wouldn't exactly say I chose to study architecture. I didn't even chose to study architecture. I didn't actually choose. But education and going to the best schools and the best universities, this was what my parents always thought about. And so it was always assumed I would go to the American University of Beirut. So I wanted to do communications and broadcast journalism.

Speaker 322:35

I don't know.

Presenter22:56

There was no degree. You know, the American University of Beirut did not offer that degree. And my parents said, no, you have to, because otherwise you won't have a degree with which you may be able to then go abroad. So it has to be the American University of Beirut. So I just looked around and thought, hmm, well, that sounds creative. You know, architecture, it's the most creative I could find. So I did a year there. And then it was a very, very bad year in Lebanon. And so then, you know, my parents insisted that I had to go. So your parents had moved to Cyprus by this point, I think. Yes, my younger brother went with them. My older brother went to the US for university. So you were there?

Roula Khalaf23:28

But

Speaker 323:36

So

Presenter23:38

Just, you know, I think it's a very good idea.

Speaker 323:38

I was there with Mike Run.

Presenter23:42

Oh, it's one of the best years of my life.

Presenter23:46

I mean, you're on your own. Your grandparents are not asking what you're doing or where you are. Or I mean, there was a curfew in Lebanon, and we never ever abided by the curfew.

Speaker 323:57

Are you

Presenter23:57

Dear in

Speaker 323:58

How do you have normal kind of teenage life?

Presenter24:00

Because you're trying very hard to have a normal life.

Speaker 324:05

Yeah.

Presenter24:06

So you turned eighteen round about that time. What did you do to mark the occasion?

Presenter24:11

So we're having a party at my my boyfriend's house, which was very very close to where I lived and clashes broke out and it was so violent that we had to have my birthday on the stairs. We couldn't even be in the house. And we just stayed on the stairs. And I remember we sang happy birthday. And you know, that was the last year in Lebanon. It was a very dangerous time. And so my mother went to Syracuse University where my brother was. And she actually applied for me because I refused to sign an application. So she just applied for me. So you didn't want to move? I didn't want to move. No. I was very, very attached to Beirut at the time. I didn't want to move.

Roula Khalaf24:53

I didn't want to move.

Presenter24:59

But then everybody around me also was moving. So it was a year when there was an exodus of young people, especially. But then.

Roula Khalaf25:05

Yeah.

Presenter25:08

When I got to Syracuse, I discovered that there is one of the best communication schools in the country. And so I go there and I ask whether I could switch. And so then that's what I did. I could then follow my dream.

Presenter25:27

Let's have some more music, Ruler Kalaf. This is disc number four. What is it? It is Feeling Good by Nina Simone. And I associate this song with New York, which is where I went after university. I loved New York. It was a wonderful time to be sort of in your early 20s living in New York City. What more could you ask for? And so it was about feeling good.

Presenter26:00

River running tree, you know how I feel.

Presenter26:07

Blossom on the tree, you know how I feel.

Presenter26:12

It's a new dawn, it's a new day, it's a new life.

Presenter26:20

And I'm feeling good.

Presenter26:24

Nina Simone and Feeling Good.

Presenter26:28

Ruler Khalaf, in nineteen ninety you joined the American business magazine Forbes, initially as a fact checker, and then in nineteen ninety one you got your first scoop. It was an interview with the disgraced former stockbroker Jordan Belfort at the self proclaimed Wolfe of Wall Street. What do you remember about the interview?

Presenter26:47

I only got the interview because I'd gathered enough information to expose what he was doing. And so then I convinced him to have an interview. And he thought that it was a real privilege for the Forbes magazine is contacting him. And so he was quite excited, very charming, smooth. He kind of thought it was going to be a bit of a puff piece, did he? Absolutely. And what did you know about what he was doing that you wanted to ask? So I knew already. I talked to a lot of the people who had worked for him over the years. And I know that he was a petty stock pusher, that a lot of people had lost money. And so I remember he came to Forbes for the interview. And I was all charming and he felt really comfortable and we talked a lot. And then when he saw the piece, he was furious. Well, I'm not surprised. You described him as a twisted Robin Hood who takes from the rich and gives to himself and his merry band of brokers. He described you as an insolent reporter who deserved an A for cleverness.

Roula Khalaf27:05

Farming.

Roula Khalaf27:10

And what did

Roula Khalaf27:12

So I knew

Presenter27:50

Yes, that was quite good. I remember my husband discovered the book. I, you know, I forgot about him. And my husband discovered the book and discovered what he said. He was so excited. And of course, because Martin Scorsese's film draws on the book, that means that a version of you is in the film. What was seen in the book? It is, but it's not. I mean, they picked a foreign name.

Roula Khalaf28:06

Not like

Presenter28:11

and someone sort of slightly foreign looking, but never con never contacted me about it. And um I didn't like the film. I thought the film was really really exaggerated as well. So I I I didn't like the film.

Presenter28:27

Ruler, in nineteen ninety five you moved to London, where you joined the Financial Times as the paper's North Africa correspondent. You were covering the Algerian civil war back then and a complete rookie in terms of that job. How did you prepare for your first assignment?

Presenter28:43

The FT cared about the war because Algeria was a major exporter of gas to Europe and because Algeria was rescheduling its debts. So a lot of banks were interested in Algeria. And so companies like BP were also interested in Algeria. So our readers had a reason to understand what was going on in Algeria. And I remember I had to fight quite hard to go. And I think the editors were quite split on whether it was dangerous or not. And I remember that.

Presenter29:14

It was a tragic, tragic story. There were massacres everywhere and you know, everybody was killing. And I wonder how all of that landed with you emotionally. I mean, relatively recently, having been through parallel experiences yourself, I'm sure.

Presenter29:29

While at uni when I did my my masters, I took some courses in the history of North Africa. And I think I was just really interested in North Africa. So I think that is what drew me. Was there something, you know, deep down that had to do with my past? I did not look.

Presenter29:49

But it is entirely possible.

Presenter29:52

On one of your trips, you were actually pregnant with your first son. Were you ever frightened for both of your lives while you were there?

Presenter30:00

Yes, it certainly gave my family a lot of cause for concern. I remember I was six months pregnant. I think it was my second or third trip to Algeria. And I was more careful than usual because, you know, usually when I used to go to Algeria, I try they would always put minders and my, you know, my main objective was always to get rid of my minders and just to be able to go out on my own. But I remember on that trip I didn't. And what was most dangerous is the way that they were driving. And I kept saying, I'm pregnant, I'm pregnant. This is the real danger for my child. It's not the violence in Algeria. It's your driving.

Presenter30:40

It obviously, in retrospect, was not a good idea, and I do not recommend that anyone does what what I did. But you know, he likes to say he went to Algeria before he was even born.

Roula Khalaf30:50

Stephen Book

Presenter30:52

Ruler, let's go to the music. It's your fifth choice. What's next? Well, guess what? It is by an Algerian singer whose stage name is Babylon. He's someone who grew up during the Civil War. And my husband and I, just recently, in the last couple of years, discovered Xena, and it's one that we listen to all the time. I mean, we might listen to it like 10 times, and it reminds me of Algeria, and it reminds me of that time.

Roula Khalaf31:25

Uh

Speaker 231:29

B

Speaker 231:50

What's funny woke?

Presenter31:55

Babylon and Zina. Ruler Calaf, during your career you've covered crises and conflicts in Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Israel. What did you learn about the role of a foreign correspondent?

Presenter32:10

It's a very good question, especially in the age of AI, where people wonder what you know, can we not just replace a lot of what we do? I mean, the foreign correspondent gives you the feel, the smell, the touch. They're the only ones who can actually tell a story. You know, the story of people, which matters enormously. Even if you're a very data-led news organisation, the stories of people and their experiences matter. And for you at the FT, I mean, you know, you say you don't cover wars in the traditional sense. What do you hope to convey in your coverage and your articles?

Presenter32:52

So I say we don't cover wars in a traditional sense, in that we don't do the blow by blow of the actual fighting. There used to be a joke among foreign correspondents that if Rilla has arrived, that means the war is over and we're now going to analyse and, you know, she's come to analyze. They must have been thrilled to see you every time. Absolutely. I mean, they'd be leaving, I'd be going in. I think we have actually become, over time, and I think I have contributed to that, we do cover more than we used to. But what we are trying to convey to our readers is the significance of an event. Whether it's a war or it's a fraud case or it's a sudden movement in markets, what we try to do is the same, and it is to explain and to convey and to try to give information before everybody else on what is happening and what it means and why you as an FT reader should care about it.

Presenter33:55

You have said that bearing witness to the fall of the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak during the Arab Spring of twenty eleven was one of the most thrilling moments for you. Can you tell me what you saw that day? It was that night was exhilarating. I mean, we finished, we wrote thousands and thousands of words. And then late at night, after midnight, my colleagues and I just walked from our hotel to Tahrir Square, where everyone was celebrating. The military was celebrating. You know, Um Kul Soon was playing. So it was just the music, the flowers, the children hugging the military. It was

Presenter34:35

A moment that you did not think was possible, it was sort of the unimaginable, became a reality in that very moment.

Presenter34:45

You've also filed stories from Saudi Arabia. What kind of challenges were you facing there?

Presenter34:50

I always felt that I had an advantage in reporting in Saudi Arabia. I mean, Saudi Arabia is now a very different country and much, much more open. But when I was reporting from Saudi Arabia, you know, if you were a male reporter, then you didn't have access to the world of women. You really could not meet with women, whereas I could meet with men and I had an entry into the world of women. You were a friend of the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who was killed in 2018. Tell me, what did you admire about him?

Presenter35:27

I think he had a very, very deep understanding of both the Saudi regime and Saudi society. And he was not a kind of an anti-regime activist, really. He knew too much almost. He understood too much. And he wasn't afraid to say it when he felt that he needed to. I think the reason that he was seen at the time as a threat is because he started writing a lot more in English. He wrote some pieces for the FT as well before he was writing for the Washington Post. And I think that he was seen a threat because he was so credible.

Presenter36:08

How did you find out about his death?

Presenter36:13

I found out through a journalist who had been in touch with him and I knew that he was due in London at some point and usually we would like meet up and have coffee and just talk. And I remember that news started trickling out that he'd gone into the embassy and he's not out yet. And a lot of it was on Twitter. It was sort of the heyday of Twitter. And it became clear that he wasn't coming out of that embassy.

Presenter36:49

And how did you feel? You'd been due to meet him, you were hoping to see him quite soon after that. I just found it uh I I thought it was unbelievable.

Presenter36:58

I I thought it was it was one of those moments when you think

Presenter37:02

Did this really happen?

Presenter37:05

Why would something like this happen?

Presenter37:09

So I think it was it was extremely, extremely shocking.

Presenter37:14

It's time to take a moment for the music, Ruler, your sixth choice today.

Presenter37:19

So I have to go back to Fayrouz now. She's probably the most well-known symbol of Lebanon and it didn't matter what faction you were with during the war. Everybody loved Fayrouz. The song I picked here Loru Habuki, Laura Your Love, is a song that reminds me of my mom because she loved it. But it's also the lullaby that I've always sang to my children. It's not a very well-known Fayrouz song, but it's the one that I'm most attached to.

Speaker 337:54

La Lorbuki Khan Law Fua Waqat wa Aktuki

Speaker 338:06

My little home boy

Speaker 338:11

I love the goddamn

Speaker 338:15

The sofa wait now.

Presenter38:24

Yellow Hubuki Feroos

Presenter38:28

So Ruler Calaf, I mean your family have had to deal with you going to work in very hostile territories, obviously. I know that there was a moment, too, when you had to get one of your sons out of Lebanon in two thousand six. What happened?

Presenter38:43

In the summers, I used to sort of drop my son at my parents for a few weeks. And I tried to do several trips at the same time. And I dropped him off, and I went to the UAE. I had an interview with the central bank governor. And the next day, I wake up and there was a Hezbollah had kidnapped several Israeli soldiers. And I just knew that there would be then a retaliation.

Presenter39:19

As expected, the airport gets bombed. There was no way to go back to Lebanon. My parents had the responsibility of my son, also my sister-in-law and her children. And I knew I just, you know, I had to go back and get him. So I flew to Syria. Somebody found me, a driver who would come and pick me up, because the roads were very dangerous then. The Israelis were bombing infrastructure, and so bridges would just collapse. And so I drove back to Beirut, totally empty, empty streets. It was a very, very tense time. I go up to the mountains, stay with my parents a couple of days, and then we arrange to get everybody out. And we end up going back to Damascus. And we each you know, I take my son back to London and my sister-in-law and her kids go back to the US, I think. And then Once that was done, I go back immediately to to Lebanon. You went straight back into to Colin. But I mean the war was was as soon as actually the war had ended, I went back. But it wasn't you know, it wasn't maybe, I don't know, a couple of weeks.

Roula Khalaf40:26

I mean the store was

Roula Khalaf40:32

But what

Presenter40:35

That's it but that still says a lot about about your character. But it's also this epic journey to extract your family and then, okay, everyone's safe. I'm going back towards the danger.

Roula Khalaf40:38

But it's my job.

Roula Khalaf40:43

Are you

Roula Khalaf40:45

Not

Speaker 340:45

About

Roula Khalaf40:45

But

Speaker 340:45

To walk.

Roula Khalaf40:46

What's the danger?

Presenter40:48

I think I was less dangerous probably by the time I I got there. But uh that is what my you know, I think I was still Middle East editor then, so that was my job.

Presenter40:58

You became editor of the Financial Times in 2020, the first female editor in the paper's 132-year history.

Presenter41:06

The paper's readership used to be predominantly men in their 50s who worked in business. What are you doing to broaden that?

Presenter41:14

I think the readership is still predominantly men in their 50s. But a few years ago, before I became editor, I was involved in a project where we wanted to look at female readership. And we did some research. And what we discovered is that the FT is seen by women as very intimidating. There was one description that really stuck with me. It's a man with his back turned. This is how it was described. And we have many women who have access because their companies subscribe on their behalf. And we really wanted them to engage. And so we did a whole range of projects from, you know, we started with a but that would tell you that there weren't enough pictures of women. It was very organic, actually. You can have a mix of pictures, but it takes not just throwing any picture onto your home page or your print pages. So it just takes a bit more thinking. To get to that, you had to implement certain programs. But after a while, it becomes part of what you do. And are you seeing the results of that yet? Is it working?

Presenter42:28

It's definitely, definitely improved. We have now what we do is we have targets for the number of engaged women, and every year we have a new target, and we reach that target. We were very pleased last year. My recommendation was to try to be more ambitious in our targets. And it also helps that we have more women who write columns and more senior women in general. And are you taking the same view on ethnic diversity too and the same approach to it?

Presenter43:00

To a certain extent, we've learned a lot from what we've done in the women projects. It's not as good. And I mean, on both of these issues, I'm not satisfied and I'll probably never be satisfied. But I think we've tried to take some learnings.

Presenter43:17

Let's have some more music, Ruler. It's your seventh choice today, your penultimate disc. What are you taking to the island next?

Presenter43:23

It's a song that I made my eldest son learn on the guitar because I loved it and I wanted him to play it so that I could sing it. I'm totally tone deaf, I'm sorry to say, but we'd sit on his bed. Once he did, he indulged me and we'd sit on his bed and it was sort of a moment of bonding. It is Goodriddens by Green Day.

Speaker 343:50

Another turning point, a fork stuck in the road.

Speaker 343:55

Tom grabs you by the wrist, directs you where to go.

Speaker 344:00

So make the best of this task and known as why It's not a question but a lesson learned in time It's something unpredictable, but in the end is right I hope you had the time of your life

Presenter44:21

Good riddance. Time of your life. Green Day. Ruler Khalaf, I know that you regularly go back to Beirut now. What do you enjoy most about being there?

Presenter44:31

We're a strange group of people, the people who are both Lebanese and British or Lebanese and American. And so going back to me is, well, first it's going home to where I was born, it's family, and it is connecting with all these people that I never get to see. Had we lived a normal life, we'd probably get together every weekend. No one would have left.

Roula Khalaf44:55

Yeah.

Speaker 244:55

Mm-hmm.

Presenter44:58

You use the word both and that sort of bothness is very interesting and I know it's very important to you. You're a committed internationalist describing yourself as a citizen of the world. And I wonder how you feel about the fact that there's so much nationalism in the air. I mean globally, does that identity as an internationalist ever feel under threat or compromised?

Presenter45:19

I never felt that. I've always been very comfortable with my two identities. You know, I'm both Lebanese and I'm British. I think that there are people who want me to feel uncomfortable about it.

Presenter45:34

And I think that the way you address it is by refusing to do that. I firmly believe that you can be both Lebanese and British and be entirely committed, entirely loyal and entirely comfortable with that.

Presenter45:56

What are you hoping for on your desert island, ruler? It's almost time to send you there. How will it feel to unplug from the news? I think that's going to be a big change for you.

Presenter46:05

Plucked from the news. I really think I'll go crazy. I don't think that's possible.

Presenter46:11

How do you think you'll handle desert island life? I think I'm going to have to do a lot of jogging, a lot of running. I need to find something else that can be as thrilling as news.

Speaker 246:14

I think I'm gonna have to do a

Presenter46:27

Well, I mean, I'm sure there'll be things there. There'll be you know, it depends how thrilling you find the wildlife. If you're keen on swimming, do you like coconuts? There are many questions we can pursue.

Presenter46:39

All right, Ruler. Well, we'll let you have one more disk before we cast you away. Your final choice today. What's it gonna be?

Presenter46:45

Well, speaking of identity and immigration, Yusundur with Nene Cherry, it's one of... I love Yusundur. I've listened to him for a very long time and he, of course, the Senegalese and is very outspoken about racism. And this is seven seconds is about the first seven seconds of your life before you confront the world and the ugliness.

Speaker 247:14

And when a child is born

Speaker 247:17

Into this world, it has no colour

Presenter47:21

I said

Presenter47:22

Of the tone the skin is living in It's not a second or seven seconds away

Speaker 247:30

Uh

Presenter47:30

Uh

Speaker 247:31

For just as long as I stay

Roula Khalaf47:35

I'll be waiting

Roula Khalaf47:38

It's not a second, we're seven seconds away Or just as long as I stay

Presenter47:45

Yusundo and Nenicheri with seven seconds. So, Ruler Calaf, I'm going to send you away to your desert island. I'm giving you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one other book of your choice. What will it be?

Presenter47:59

The book that I always recommend and that has sort of a personal connection to it because I've kind of lived the consequences of it is David Fromkins A Peace to End All Peace. It's a very ironic title and it's about the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the creation of the modern Middle East.

Presenter48:22

And what about a luxury item to make life a little bit more enjoyable now? I have to say a very expensive and durable pen and a very, very, very, very big notebook.

Presenter48:35

And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves first, ruler?

Presenter48:41

I'll take Feyru's, so that I can think of my children.

Presenter48:46

Ruler Calaf, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Roula Khalaf49:24

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation.

Presenter49:25

With Ruler. I'm not sure how she'll get on being unplugged from the news, but maybe the jogging will help.

Presenter49:32

We've cast away many journalists and foreign correspondents over the years, including Lise Douset, Jeremy Bowen, and Lindsay Hilsom. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley, the executive production coordinator was Susie Roylance, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, the content editor was Mugabe Turia, and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the explorer and chief scout, Dwayne Fields. I do hope you'll join us.

Roula Khalaf50:10

I'm Noel Titheridge and for BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World. This is Impulsive. What happens when someone's personality changes completely?

Speaker 250:22

It was completely out of character. Never done it before, never done it since.

Roula Khalaf50:25

And it's because of the prescription drug.

Speaker 250:28

I

Speaker 350:28

I asked myself, Why would you do such a thing? What were you thinking?

Roula Khalaf50:34

I have been uncovering the shocking side effects linked to medications called dopamine agonists.

Roula Khalaf50:41

For BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World. This is Impulsive. Subscribe to Shadow World Impulsive Now on BBC Sounds.