Kemi Badenoch MP

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:45

My castaway this week is the politician Kemi Badenock, leader of His Majesty's Opposition. Born in London in 1980 and brought up in Lagos, she returned to the UK at 16, seeking the opportunities her parents felt she would not find at home. She flipped Burgers to support herself through her A-levels, then took a degree in computer systems engineering at Sussex University, where she discovered her personal politics were a stark contrast to the students around her. At 25, she joined the Conservative Party, which she describes as her second family. She met her husband Hamish while campaigning and alongside raising three children became an MP at 37. Her cabinet positions included Minister of State for Equalities under Boris Johnson and Secretary of State for International Trade under Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak. Following his resignation, she was elected party leader in 2024. She says, I've never assumed the system will work it out. I think the system doesn't know or care and it's our job to make it know and care. Kemi Badenock, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you. So there have been six leaders of the Conservative Party in just 10 years. Kemi, how would you describe your own personal style of leadership?

Kemi Badenoch MP1:55

My style is very much about telling the truth.

Kemi Badenoch MP2:00

Even if it's very blunt, but being honest, because I think people need to know who you are, what you stand for, and they shouldn't feel like you're pandering to them or just telling them what they want to hear. And sometimes some of the messages can be difficult, but I think if we make the arguments properly and honestly, get the facts out, and also show people how we're trying to make their lives better, show that this is about our future, not just what's happened today or yesterday, that you can succeed.

Presenter2:33

There's quite a lot going on at the moment, Kemmy. We're speaking on Monday, and in the last week, three more Tories have defected to reform. So Andrew Rossindell, the MP for Romford, and two former front benchers, Nadeem Zaharwi and Robert Jenrick. What are you doing to steady the ship?

Kemi Badenoch MP2:48

I think the defections are part of the ship being stead. And while it is always sad to lose people who used to be on the team, losing people who were not team players and who were more focused about their own personal ambition rather than the country's ambition is actually helpful for showing what kind of party we are.

Presenter3:10

So that means that they're betting against the Tories at the next election though, doesn't it? I mean, political columnists are talking about the party facing an existential crisis. How concerned are you about its future?

Kemi Badenoch MP3:20

Well, that was my concern in July twenty twenty four when we had a historic defeat. We've been around as a Conservative Party for over two hundred years. We are an institution of our country. And

Kemi Badenoch MP3:36

Making sure that we didn't just disappear was my mission and that was the pitch I gave to party members. I've never thought about politics as being a straight line between left and right. If you do draw that line, I'm firmly on the right. I think it's more about right or wrong and there's a lot that is just common sense and I want the Conservative Party to be common sense and I think so much of the fragmentation is happening because people are frustrated that they've tried things that aren't working. They've tried parties that haven't delivered for them. That would include the Conservative Party. You know, I'm not here to pretend that everything we did was perfect. What I'm trying to do is make sure we learn from the mistakes that we made in the past. And if we do, then we will be able to bring people back together. I want less division and more of people finding common ground and shared values. My father used to tell me, he was a doctor, he used to tell me that if you get the diagnosis right, you will treat the patient. But if you get the diagnosis wrong, you will try all sorts of things and they won't work, that getting the diagnosis right is the first step. And this is what I'm trying to do with the Conservative Party.

Presenter4:43

When you became leader just over a year ago, the Tories were polling higher than reform and now you're behind them. What's your plan to win back those voters?

Kemi Badenoch MP4:53

things that I do know is that when you have a long term strategy, you do have setbacks in between. And I often use the analogy of companies that are changing their strategy but still have to make quarterly earnings reports. And quite often, the thing you're doing for the long term is not that helpful in the short term.

Presenter5:12

Cammy, it's time to go to your first disc today. Tell us about this piece of music and why you're taking it to the Highland with you.

Kemi Badenoch MP5:18

The first disc is the story of tonight and it is from a musical, a musical called Hamilton. And this particular song I love because it reminds me of the first time that I stood for the leadership of the Conservative Party, which was not 2024, but 2022. And I had a group of friends, a renegade group of junior ministers who had all resigned because we were so frustrated that the politics wasn't working. What are we doing? We're not doing conservative things. We need to be heard. And they said, Kemi, you've got to stand. You're the only one that would do well and we will support you. And I said, this is a mad idea. It's not going to work. And they said, don't worry, we're all in it together. And if we look stupid, we'll all look stupid together. And 12 people threw their hat in the ring. I was the most junior, the newest MP, and I came fourth, which was a brilliant result. I will confess I was slightly relieved that I didn't win because I wanted to use the time to talk about what I believed in. And when it was over, apart from the relief, I looked around and I had this group of, you know, four friends who had been with me. It was a special moment. And because I do believe in freedom and I do believe in taking risks and you never know, things might go well, they might not go well. The story of tonight is very evocative for me, for 2022.

Speaker 46:38

I may not live to see our glory But I will gladly join the fight And when our children tell our story They'll tell the story of tonight

Kemi Badenoch MP6:40

Yeah.

Kemi Badenoch MP6:42

Glory.

Kemi Badenoch MP6:45

And I will gladly join their fight.

Kemi Badenoch MP6:49

When our children tell our story

Speaker 46:54

Let's have another round tonight. Let's have another round tonight. Let's have another round tonight. Raise a glass to freedom.

Speaker 47:04

Something they can never take away.

Presenter7:08

The story of tonight from the original Broadway cast recording of Hamilton, composed by Lynn Manuel Miranda, performed by Lynn Manuel Miranda, a curiator Nauduan, David Diggs and the original Broadway cast. So let's go back to the beginning, Kemi Badenong. You were born in Wimbledon, London in January 1980 to your parents Faye and Femi. They were both Nigerian, so how did you come to be born in London?

Kemi Badenoch MP7:31

I was born into a wealthy family, and you need to understand what was going on in the late 70s. There is an oil boom. You have lots of wealthy Nigerians in London all the time buying homes and, you know, so almost very similar to that Gulf wealth that many people recognize. And my mother had been referred to a Harley Street obstetrician because she had endometriosis, which was not treatable in Nigeria at the time. She tells me that they said, oh, this is it, you know, you're never going to have children. And a friend of hers recommended a surgeon called Mr. Roberts. And I was born at a private Catholic hospital in Wimbledon called St. Teresa's, which is very, very coincidental because my husband was born there just a year before. That was why I was born here. When I was born in 1980, Nigeria was democratic, but most of my childhood was coups, military dictatorships and very, very bad economic policies. And it sort of ran through a lot of the wealth that my family had. So by the time I was 16, we didn't have very much at all.

Presenter8:47

So big changes in your family. Take me back to those early days, though. You mentioned that your family was wealthy, and so just after you were born, they returned a couple of weeks later, go back and

Kemi Badenoch MP8:48

The bus

Kemi Badenoch MP8:55

I think probably a couple of months, a couple of months later, because we had family here as well.

Presenter8:57

A couple of months

Presenter9:01

So you're back in Lagos, your dad was a doctor, your mum a professor of medicine, and you grew up in this middle class neighborhood. Before you started to experience a decline in your fortune as a family, what do you remember about that early part of your childhood? It was

Kemi Badenoch MP9:15

Fantastic. My mother wasn't a professor then. She was just a new sort of lecturer. She was in her late 20s when she had me. But they were very happy times. You know, I grew up in a big family. Both my grandmothers had sort of seven, eight children and lots of cousins. They all lived close by. There were parties. And that's sort of the life that I try and give my children now.

Presenter9:38

Apparently your friends used to call

Kemi Badenoch MP9:39

Call you the Cosbies.

Kemi Badenoch MP9:42

They did, because the father in the Cosby show was a doctor, and my dad was a doctor. He was very hands-on with us in a way that most fathers, certainly most Yoruba fathers back in the day in Nigeria, were not. He was very Western in his outlook. We spoke English in the house, where many other households they would have been speaking Yoruba. We spoke English.

Speaker 29:57

Mm-hmm.

Presenter10:06

You were living, I think, above his practice. Yes. And he had a lot of patients who were you you mentioned the the boom in the oil industry. A lot of his patients were working for the oil companies, were they?

Kemi Badenoch MP10:08

Yes.

Kemi Badenoch MP10:16

Yes, my father had retainers with the oil companies, so he was their doctor. The oil companies would just send their staff for treatment and they paid very well, so we were very comfortable. And it started going wrong when some of the staff there were not ill but would ask for sick notes. And my father refused to give them sick notes. He was a very proper man. He liked things to be done properly. But it had a bad effect on my dad because the staff then colluded and complained that they didn't want this doctor anymore because he wasn't giving them the sick notes that they wanted or helping them get off work. And he lost quite a few of those retainerships. And that was the beginning. It was certainly one of the things that happened alongside the general economic decline, which came from the bad policies of the military governments.

Presenter11:09

It's time for your second piece of music, Kemmy Badenok. Tell us about this disc, why are you taking it to the island?

Kemi Badenoch MP11:14

So this song was released just a few months before I was born and it is Quincy Jones' production of Don't Stop Till You Get Enough by Michael Jackson and I think it is a brilliant piece of music. It is so layered, the strings, all of the horns are used as the beat. It's also very optimistic and Michael Jackson was the pop icon of the 80s, especially if you were black, irrespective of where you lived. He cut across the whole world. I remember people saying even behind the Iron Curtain, they knew who he was. My grandparents, my parents, all of my uncles listened to him. And I still have this great memory of my uncles who were twins playing his thriller video, using it to scare us children. And we thought it was the most terrifying thing. And last Halloween, I told my daughter, who likes spooky things, that I'll show you a scary video. My six-year-old watched Michael Jackson's thriller video and said, mommy, this is not scary at all. This is very silly. And I've never felt so old. And it's because, of course, the CGI today makes what we watched in 1983, 85 look quite silly. But my favourite song of the 80s is Don't Stop Till You Get Enough.

Speaker 412:38

Uh

Presenter13:00

Michael Jackson, don't stop till you get enough. Kemi Beta not you described that piece as optimistic, which it undoubtedly is. Are you an optimist by nature?

Kemi Badenoch MP13:08

I am. I am. I sometimes describe myself as a cynical optimist or a realistic optimist because I don't want people to think that the optimism is coming from a place of naivety. But I do think that to be a good politician, you've got to be optimistic. You've got to have a better vision of the future than the one we have now, because if you can't imagine it, then you will not be able to deliver it.

Presenter13:34

Let's talk more about you growing up, Kemi. You attended eight different schools when you were a kid. Why were you moving around so much? Travel.

Kemi Badenoch MP13:41

Uh my mother.

Kemi Badenoch MP13:43

Had a fellowship at the University of Nebraska in Omaha between 1985 and 1986. So she took us there with her. My father stayed behind, and I was already in a school before then. And then I think I started off with a nursery school that moved to a primary school. My parents didn't think it was very good. And then I went to another primary school and then we went to the States. And then I started at a private school there, and my mother didn't think it was actually very good. And then when I moved back to Nigeria from the US, I went to a school called St. Saviour. So it was an Anglican primary school. And that was where I actually spent the bulk of the time. So lots of schools, but most of the time spent there. And then secondary school, I was so excited because it was a boarding school. And I'd been reading lots of Mallory Towers and I thought it would be like Mallory Towers. It was not like Mallory Towers. It was not an Enid Blyton boarding school. It was more like Borstall. It was absolutely dreadful. All of the girls at school had a machete and a hoe to cut the grass because, of course, there are no lawnmowers there. There weren't any sort of staff or cleaners or labourers. The pupils had to do it.

Presenter14:51

And it was quite a big school by itself with loads of things.

Kemi Badenoch MP14:52

Yes, it's huge. It was huge. Um, you know, there must have been about between fifteen hundred and two thousand uh girls there. But it was more Lord of the Flies slash Bostall than than anything else.

Presenter14:58

And uh

Presenter15:03

Anything else?

Kemi Badenoch MP15:06

So yes, it was very much survival of the fittest. And the thing that really helped me get through it was having a lot of family there. So I had a cousin or a second cousin in every year. It's my huge extended family. But I didn't fit in that school because I was always saying what I thought. And people say, well, you can't say that. And you shouldn't be saying that. And I was so rebellious. My parents were worried because I went in with very high scores. I think I had the highest score of any girl there. And I came 14th in the class. And that was one of six classes. And when they visited me, there was a visiting weekend and I'd lost so much weight. And they asked me what was going on. And I said, I don't like it here. I wasn't eating as well because I didn't like the food because I wasn't fussy about food, but the food wasn't like the food I'd had at home. And so I used to give my food away in exchange for a book.

Presenter15:54

Hmm.

Presenter16:00

So a lot of having to learn to adapt, you know, a lot of presumably building your resilience, but also going through some quite difficult things. How did that shape you, do you think, as the person

Kemi Badenoch MP16:09

Personally, you want to know? It made me, I'm certain this is what made me someone who finds it quite easy to make friends.

Presenter16:17

I am interested in this Mallory Towers thing, though. I mean, Enid Blight, and so growing up reading a lot of that, what else were you reading and looking at? And what impressions did you have of life here?

Kemi Badenoch MP16:19

I mean any blight

Kemi Badenoch MP16:25

My childhood was very BBC. Everything on telly was BBC because that's what you got. The Nigerian Television Authority didn't make many programmes. There were a few that are still very iconic and nostalgic. But I was watching Doctor Who. I think that's where my love of sci-fi came from. Some mothers do have them. So Frank Spencer and all of those characters. That's what I grew up on. You know, I went to, as I said, an Anglican primary school. It was all hymns and choral. We went to church. And my childhood was sort of the last embers of empire and the colonial era.

Presenter17:04

Let's have some more music, Cammy Badenonk. This is your third choice today. What's next?

Kemi Badenoch MP17:08

So this is a song that my father played quite frequently. It was one of his records and my father's record collection was my music. So a lot of Motown and a lot of sort of, you know, old sort of rhythm and blues. And Sam Cooke's What a Wonderful World. comes to my mind when I think of my parents because I remember my dad sort of singing it and dancing in front of my mother and she just laughing and saying he was being ridiculous. It's a moment of childhood where it's happy families. My parents were best friends and just seeing them interact in that way, it's a very nostalgic song for me.

Speaker 417:47

Don't know much about history.

Speaker 417:51

Don't know much biology

Speaker 417:55

No no much of my Messiah's book

Speaker 417:59

Don't know much about the franchise?

Speaker 418:02

But I do know that I love

Speaker 418:06

And I know better if you love me too. What a wonderful world this would be.

Presenter18:15

Sam Cook and a wonderful world. Kemi Badenok, by the mid nineties Nigeria was under military dictatorship. It was suspended from the Commonwealth and suffered an economic crash. What impact did that time have on you and your family?

Kemi Badenoch MP18:30

A huge impact. Universities, of course, were protesting the government. There was a lot of activism, and so they were just closed down.

Kemi Badenoch MP18:41

My mother wa actually was not a fan of all of that. She wanted to get on with work. People were on strike for um you know uh late payment of salaries and then eventually the government just made the strikes permanent. So for about two years my mother didn't get paid, which was quite tough.

Presenter18:58

And so your dad had lost his patience at this point and then your mum wasn't being paid?

Kemi Badenoch MP19:01

At this point, I don't know.

Kemi Badenoch MP19:02

Wow, okay. Yes, exactly.

Presenter19:05

Hmm.

Kemi Badenoch MP19:07

We had family in the US and they were thinking, well, you can't be here. You're coming to the end of secondary school. I was a year young for secondary school. And my mother had already made me take all these exams and things so that I could think about leaving the country. But they didn't know how they could afford so much of it. It was a very, very odd time.

Presenter19:33

What did you feel? Do you remember your feelings about it all?

Kemi Badenoch MP19:35

Honestly, I didn't think very much of it all. When you're 15, 16, you know, it's friends, it's parties, it's school and all the different groups and gangs and who's doing what. That was what occupied my mind. I was doing very well at school. I think I did become aware of the economy then, just what stuff just wasn't working.

Presenter19:59

So it's around this point that your parents realize that because you were born in the UK, you can actually come back, you should return to Britain. So they decide that that you should do that. You should go back by yourself at sixteen to do your A levels. What was your initial response when the shared

Kemi Badenoch MP20:13

I shared the plan with you. Well, it wasn't quite that simple. My father still felt that there must be a way to get me to the US and I'd done SATs, got a very good result, because we couldn't afford the fees, even with scholarship offers and things like that. But my mother said that she had a friend in the UK, a very close friend of hers, who I call my aunt, and I could stay there. And they disagreed. So my father didn't want me to come to the UK because he said, well, we don't really have much family there. You can't go somewhere without any family. It'll be better if she stays in Lagos. And I was the one who said, well, I would love to. I'd love to go to London. I've been watching Doctor Who and all of that.

Presenter20:54

So you stayed with a family friend in London, but you had to get a job to support yourself. This is when you were working in McDonald's. I mean, that must have been quite a lot to deal with, and also quite a contrast by the sounds of it from the life that you were living at home in Lagos. Were you homesick? I mean, excited to be in a new place, sure, but you must have missed your family.

Kemi Badenoch MP21:01

Uh

Speaker 221:01

Yeah.

Kemi Badenoch MP21:07

Yeah.

Speaker 221:07

Yeah.

Kemi Badenoch MP21:14

I did miss my family and it was very hard to get in touch. So there was a lot of letter writing. This is something I think is quite sad. We don't write letters anymore. I have loads of letters which I wrote home. I did miss them. But so occasionally it was very expensive to call. I don't think people remember how expensive international calls were. But the homesickness was not as much as the excitement.

Presenter21:37

Bedenook, it's time to go to the music. Your fourth choice today. What's next and why?

Kemi Badenoch MP21:42

This is a hymn which I had at my wedding and it means a lot because it reminds me of my mother and she heard it. She'd never heard it before and she said, what is this hymn? I love it. And I told her that it was one that I'd heard as a teenager in the church that I went to in Wimbledon and I thought it was absolutely beautiful and even though it wasn't one that we sang in my school choirs, it's one that I just think has a certain piece about it. And it also reminds me of my mother because she always said, be calm, be still. She didn't like flappiness. She didn't like people who got overly emotional or hysterical. No shouting. And she worked very hard to try and make me somebody who would just behave properly. And so this is...

Presenter22:31

How successful was she?

Kemi Badenoch MP22:32

I'm mostly successful. I think I still do a bit of shouting.

Kemi Badenoch MP22:36

Usually are children who aren't picking up their shoes and leaving them in the hallway, or won't be quiet when I'm on a work call. But yes, this song reminds me of my mother.

Speaker 422:47

Be still for the presence of the Lord.

Speaker 422:52

The Holy Lord is here.

Speaker 422:59

Come bow before him.

Speaker 423:05

Forever runs and fear.

Speaker 423:12

In a hymn of sin is far.

Presenter23:17

Ala Jones singing Be Still in the Presence of the Lord with the English Session Orchestra.

Presenter23:25

Kami Badenock, both your parents were medics, as you've described, your mother eventually becoming a professor of medicine. Did you ever want to follow in their footsteps?

Kemi Badenoch MP23:33

It didn't occur to me not to, certainly not at the beginning. But actually, once I started sort of working and doing other things, I was having doubts. And as it happened, engineering was something that I was much better suited to.

Presenter23:48

There you were, doing your A-levels, flipping burgers, all of that. You took a year out after that and worked as an apprentice. What were you doing?

Kemi Badenoch MP23:57

I worked for a firm of architects called Hunt Thompson Associates and it was brilliant. I was a one-woman IT department. I learned how to fix computers and it's so funny. I did two degrees, you know, engineering and law. But the stuff I remember the most is the stuff that I did during my apprenticeship. Really, what kind of thing? I can still put a computer together and take it apart. And whenever there is any technical issue in the house, I'm the person to fix it.

Presenter24:15

Really? What kind of thing?

Presenter24:23

So you then decided to go and study computer science engineering at Sussex University. How did you get on there?

Kemi Badenoch MP24:30

The course was difficult. The computer science aspects I found easy. I'd been coding since I was seven because my father had bought me a ZX eighty one. I knew how to code from a very young young age. The engineering side was hard. Sussex is C

Presenter24:43

In is a very liberal university, Kemi. You've said that you found your own views quite at odds with the other students around you. Tell me about that.

Kemi Badenoch MP24:51

But I think by this time I have become a conservative. I just don't know it. I don't know that I'm political, but I'm exposed to a particular type of left-wing ideology that I really don't like. It's very patronizing. You know, I would listen to students talk about Africa from a place of ignorance, but also superiority. You know, we need to help the Africans and we have to stop them. There were big campaigns about stopping people from buying powdered milk from Nestle, and I said, a lot of those women that you're trying to stop have AIDS. We're coming off the tail of the big AIDS epidemic, especially in southern Africa. They can't feed their babies with breast milk. What's the matter with you? They were so obsessed with fighting the corporation that they couldn't actually see who was needing these things and who was being harmed. Of course, people who don't have money aren't going to spend it on powdered milk if they can feed the child themselves. And it was that sort of thing.

Presenter25:50

Let's have some more music, Cammy Bedenoc, your fifth choice. What is it?

Kemi Badenoch MP25:54

I'm not sure it qualifies as a song, but it's Everybody's Free to Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann. And it's a piece of advice set to a music soundtrack, I think, is what I would say. And I love it because my apprenticeship finished in 1999 and I started university in 1999. So, that year in industry that I took, we had this residential course, and we were the class of 99. And the song starts, ladies and gentlemen, of the class of 99. And it gives all of this advice, which I think even now is so relevant, it's relevant to politics. You know, don't waste your time on jealousy. Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind. In the end, the race is long, it's only with yourself. I think many politicians should listen to that. And it's also very sympathetic to politicians. It says, you know, accept certain inalienable truths. Prices will rise, politicians will philander, and you too will get old. And I always thought about that as being very helpful in thinking about life going quickly. I will get old too. What do I want? Be nice to your siblings, which I think I've always tried to do. I hope they listen to it and they can see I've tried my best.

Speaker 427:08

I will dispense this advice now.

Speaker 427:12

Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth. Oh never mind. You will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they faded. But trust me, in 20 years you look back at photos of yourself and recall in a way you can't grasp now how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous you really looked. You are not as fat as you imagine.

Presenter27:37

Basil Ehrman, everybody's free to wear sunscreen. So Kemi Badenok, your career post uni was going well. You were working in IT for a bank doing a law degree part time. When did you make the switch into politics and why did you do it?

Kemi Badenoch MP27:51

Um

Presenter27:51

Yeah.

Kemi Badenoch MP27:52

Much later. So I had a career as a systems analyst in banking. I wasn't a frontline banker. I was working on things like online mobile banking, making sure that the cash came out of your cash machine.

Kemi Badenoch MP28:06

When you put your card in. And I became interested in politics as an endeavour in 2005 when I joined the party, just because I thought it'd be a fun thing to do. We just had an election, Labour's won. I know I'm not a Labour person. I think I'm Conservative. All my friends have gone all over the world, all over the country post-uni. So this might be a fun thing to do. And I joined the Conservative Party for the party aspect of it, socialising, drinks, hanging out with other young people. And it was amazing because that's where I met my husband.

Presenter28:48

So, this is Hamish. Join for the party, stay for the policy. That's what you have to do. So, what do you think he saw in you?

Kemi Badenoch MP28:50

Yeah, you can see it.

Kemi Badenoch MP28:54

But he saw something. So I met him, this is seven years later when we end up getting married, but about four or five years after I'm standing for election in No Hoper, which I thought had plenty of hope, Dulwich and West Norwood, which is mostly Brixton. But I thought, you know, I can convince people, I can persuade them. And he joined the party after me, certainly joined the local party after me.

Kemi Badenoch MP29:21

We just got on and we became friends. And he's just always there. He was always there. Whenever I needed anything, he was always there. And he still is now. He's always supportive, has always been by my side. He is my inspiration. There's no way I could have done any of this without him.

Presenter29:41

Cammy Baidenock, you were selected for Saffron Walden at the last minute in twenty seventeen. How did you go about convincing a rural Essex community that you were the right fit for them?

Presenter29:52

By being

Kemi Badenoch MP29:53

Myself, I didn't think I would get it. I thought I have one friend in Saffron-Wolden. I've been there a couple of times for random reasons. My seat of Wimbledon already has a Conservative MP. I just need somewhere else to adopt me, somewhere that likes the cut of my jib. But because I didn't think I'd get it, I think I was more relaxed. And they tell me that I was funny, I was very honest, I wasn't trying to be something. I wasn't, you know, I started off by saying I could pretend that my family has been here since the Battle of Hastings, but I don't think anyone here would believe me. And they just burst out laughing. And they said later on that, yeah, this is someone who's just herself. And Essex is like that. You know, the seat is now called Northwest Essex. I love that county. It's sort of Essex is very much my personality. I call myself an Essex girl. A lot of the people there are people who, you know, had to work very, very hard and then became successful. They have high expectations and they're real, they're honest. And it's great.

Presenter30:57

You mentioned high expectations and of course, you know, being elected and becoming an MP does mean that, you know, the press then start to go through everything that you've said and done in the past with a fine-tooth comb. And you did once describe hacking Harriet Harmon's website as a prank in 2008, that's before you were an MP, as your naughtiest moment. Do you regret doing that now?

Kemi Badenoch MP31:19

Telling people. Why did you tell people? Well, because it's the truth. So I'm not one of those politicians who hides what they did and pretends that they were always a goody two-shoes. Someone said, What's the naughtiest thing you ever did? And I said, Actually, I did do this thing, which was not good. No one knew about it. So it wasn't something that I'd been caught doing. I'm not going to leave papers on a photocopier or get caught. And it was a prank. It was an accidental one. It wasn't deliberate. I clicked on something on her website. I can't remember how or why I was on there. It must have been something to do with.

Presenter31:19

Yeah.

Kemi Badenoch MP31:50

Because I lived in the area where she lived, and it asked for a username and password. I thought, why is it asking me for a username and password? I just put her name in and it let me into the back end. And of course, you know, understanding how websites work and so on, I thought, this is too good to be true. So I put a poster of Boris Johnson on Harriet's website saying vote Boris and a sort of comical resignation letter. We just had there'd been a conservative to labour defection in 2007. And I used that as the template. So it was quite topical at the time, basically using this man, Quentin Davies, letter, and pretending that Harriet was leaving the Labour Party. It was quite obviously a joke along with the Vote Boris thing. And I thought it was pretty funny. And then when I became an MP, and then you start seeing all the stupid things that people said, this is just tedious and exhausting. And I got asked, you know, what was the naughtiest thing? And that was on my mind. I thought I should tell people actually that I did this. And what surprised me was the level of sort of uproar. How could you have done this? You should be in prison. I said, well, no, it was a summary offense at the time. It's like speeding up. No, I wouldn't have gone to prison. And I thought that people would have been more interested in the honesty. But it was, especially the left at the time, was really looking for a way to catch me out. And I raised an eyebrow at it. They reported me to Essex Police. I think they laughed it off. Harriet laughed it off as well. You know, I did apologise to her. She said, I can't even remember this happened. But it was an interesting reaction and a reminder that sometimes as politicians, you don't get forgiven for telling the truth. But also, it's why many politicians don't tell the truth because they're scared of how people will react. I'm not scared of how people will react. Some people will listen and not agree, but at least they know what I think and why I think. And that's where I want to be. I can't win everybody. I can't get everybody to agree with me, but at least I want people who are listening to me to say, well, I don't agree with that, but I understand it and I know why she thinks that and what she's trying to do.

Presenter33:56

Cammy Badenot, we've got to make time to go to the music. It's time for your sixth choice today. Tell me about this next track.

Kemi Badenoch MP34:02

Love is All Around by Wet, Wet, Wet is a 90s song that I really love and which my husband also really loved. And so we picked it for our wedding as our first dance. And I think it is, it's very romantic. You know, it talks about there's no beginning, there'll be no end to the love. You know I love you, I always will. And that is what I would want to say to my husband, that you know I love you, I always will. He's an amazing man. And so this one's for him.

Speaker 434:35

So if you really love me

Speaker 434:38

Come on and let it show.

Speaker 434:52

Always win

Speaker 434:56

My mind's made up by the way that I feel

Presenter35:00

Wet, wet, wet, and love is all around for your husband Hamish Kemi Badenock.

Presenter35:06

So Kemi, when you were elected leader of the Conservatives, you became the first black person to lead a major political party in the UK. How do you feel about that historic achievement?

Kemi Badenoch MP35:17

I think it's nice to have something like that, but for me, the real achievement is not being the first to do something. It's being the best. You know, achievement is about delivering, not just about the first to get to the end of the finish line. So I still feel like I've got a lot to do and to show. And what I would want to say to young girls who look like me is that don't spend the time worrying about the obstacles. My father used to tell me that 80% of what happens to you is down to you and only 20% is down to other people. And of course, there will be obstacles. Of course, there'll be people who are prejudiced against you, whoever you are, whatever you look like. Of course, there'll be people who will discriminate. But most people in our country are not like that because if they were, I wouldn't be sitting here in this position.

Presenter36:10

You have said, Kemi, that you dislike identity politics and that.

Kemi Badenoch MP36:13

Very much the

Presenter36:14

Yeah.

Kemi Badenoch MP36:14

It's dangerous for policymaking. Why? Many reasons, but I grew up in a place that was all about identity politics. People think identity politics is skin colour, but you can all look the same and have lots of different identities. You only need to look at a place like Northern Ireland, where it is identity politics. We don't call it that. But you ask people to retreat into groups, into tribes, rather than find the thing that they have in common. Identity politics is a recipe for conflict. And many people don't see it because they see themselves as trying to help a specific group. But we need to bring groups together. And that is why talking about having a British identity is very important for me. That if we start splintering off into lots of different subgroups, I think it becomes harder. And I think we're seeing a lot more of that.

Presenter37:01

Yes, you've said modern Britain is a multiracial country, but we must never become a multicultural one. What do you mean by that? And is it something you still believe?

Kemi Badenoch MP37:11

I think a lot of people think of culture

Kemi Badenoch MP37:13

As the food you eat and the clothes you wear, the music you listen to, and yes, that is part of it. But for me, culture is about standards, norms, behaviors, what is acceptable. And I think that if we have lots of different competing cultures where things that I think are unacceptable become acceptable, we will change the very nature of our society. If we allow people who think intolerance is fine just to flourish, then we will become an intolerant society. And that there need to be limits to what we tolerate in order for us to stay cohesive. That's something I really believe because I've seen countries which are multicultural in the sense that I'm talking about actually just fragment and break into conflict. I don't think Britain is multicultural now. I mean, not in a meaningful sense. You know, going out for a curry is not multiculturalism. People are talking about food tastes. Deciding on the role of women and what their rights are. That's a different culture. The role of religion in the way that government works, that's culture. It's standards, norms, behaviours, practices. It's not just I like to eat this and I like to wear that. How you treat people, how you behave, queuing, that's a cultural thing. Some people don't think you need to queue. We should queue. That's not something I want to see. Lots of different things coming about. And I think it's quite important because if you allow a free for all and let everybody do whatever everybody wants to do without something that we all have to unite us, I think we will fragment. And that's something I don't want to see.

Presenter38:48

But Britain has been spoken about as a multicultural society and a very successful one for decades.

Kemi Badenoch MP38:55

And I think many people who do that confuse being a multiracial country with being a multicultural country. It's not the same thing. You can have a country where people all look the same and they have different cultures. You can have a country where people have one culture and they look different. And I think that we actually need to raise the level of debate beyond the very simplistic notions which we've had, because those simplistic notions have caused a lot of problems. Where, you know, I look at the work we've done on grooming gangs, for instance, where the state, lots of state functions, turned a blind eye because they thought, well, we don't need to worry about that. That's a different culture. We're not getting involved. I think it causes a lot of problems.

Presenter39:38

But this is wh why we have legislation, isn't it? I mean, that was law breaking that was going on there, and we have equalities law, we have things that are cr criminal acts. We already have legislation covering many of those things, don't we?

Kemi Badenoch MP39:45

Yeah.

Kemi Badenoch MP39:48

Yes, but legislation doesn't cover norms and practices and behaviour. The reason why people from all over the world come to the UK is not just so that they can earn a living, it's because there is something here that other people don't have. You look at what's happening in Iran, that's a totally different culture. People want freedom. The freedom to live your life as you choose, yes, but not to impact on other people's lives. There are some cultures where control over the lives of others is embedded in the behaviours. That's something I'm very much against. I'm about freedom.

Presenter40:19

Kemmy, it's time for some more music, your seventh choice today.

Kemi Badenoch MP40:22

What have you got for us next? The car journeys to the constituency are long and all of us are in the car. Because of the busy job I have, it is one of the times when we're all together and there are no interruptions. And the children have shaped my musical taste in the same way that my parents have. And Carry You Home by Alex Warren is the song of the moment and I think it's a great song. We play a game in the car called the DJ game. This is to stop them going on screens. I'm very strict with them about their screen habits, although probably not strict enough. So you play the DJ game, everybody has to pick a song they like and this song came up again and again and I loved it.

Speaker 441:01

That on you, I'm not afraid to say it.

Speaker 441:07

Say it's true.

Speaker 441:09

Oh I hope you know I'll carry you on

Speaker 441:14

It's a night or fifty-five years down the road. Oh, I know there's so many ways that this could go. Don't want you to wonder, darling, I need you to know. Live this and every life

Speaker 441:29

Are you so seven?

Presenter41:32

Alex Warren and Carry You Home. Kemi Baidenock in your maiden speech you compared politics to sex, saying if it's not messy, you're not doing it right. Do you still stand by that Woody Allen quote?

Kemi Badenoch MP41:43

Yes, yes, I do. Politics is not simple. It's not straightforward. It's very complex. It is very messy. There are highs, there are lows. And it's messy because it's people. You're dealing with people. You're dealing with people's lives. Trust in politics is something that has degraded to such low levels. And I think the only way you can win trust back is by being honest, showing, not just telling what kind of person you are. I'm very proud of the team that I have, the Shadow Cabinet, lots of great people. Some of the smartest people that I have ever met are in the Conservative Party today. And that is fantastic. I could have done other things that would have given me an easier life. But it is worrying about the future and wanting to give a future to young people in particular, not just my kids, but other people's children as well. Because I remember what it was like. You know, I've spoken so much about the 80s and 90s. I never worried about whether I'd get a job. I never worried about what life would be like. It was always going to be fine. And I am despondent when I hear young people speaking as if the world is going to end before they even get a start. And I want them to know that there are people out there who are working very hard to make sure that we can give them that brighter future.

Presenter42:59

So your dad in particular had wanted you to go into medicine. I know you lost him four years ago, so he didn't get to see you become leader, but he did see you become an MP. What did he think of that, and what does your mum think of where you are now?

Kemi Badenoch MP43:13

I don't think that I could ever have stood in that 2022 leadership contest that propelled me into cabinet if he hadn't died. He died that year, just a few months before. And it felt like the worst thing that had ever, that could ever happen to me had already happened. So he told me before he died, I know you're going to go all the way. And he said something. He said that my brother, sister and I were his greatest achievements. And it's, you know, I get emotional thinking about it because he knew he was dying by this point. My father died of brain cancer. My mother, on the other hand, when my father was proud of me going into politics, my mother was tearing her hair out. She's like, why would you do this? You're working in banking. You've got a good job. You're making money. Why do you want to go into this horrible career? Because for her, politicians were not good people. She had a very, very dim view of politicians thinking they were all out for themselves, especially in Nigeria, that there was too much corruption. And so I think part of what I'm trying to do now in politics is prove to her that politicians can be good people. You know, your daughter is one. And she is proud in a different way.

Kemi Badenoch MP44:22

Yeah.

Presenter44:22

Kemi Badenock, it is almost time for me to cast you away to the island, a very solitary existence. How do you think you'll cope with that, and will you miss the hurly burley of politics?

Kemi Badenoch MP44:31

Um I'm sh I would miss the hurly burly, but I'm also very happy in my own company. And I think being on a desert island with some peace and quiet and my phone not ringing would actually sometimes in politics it sounds like a dream. It would be quite hot and uh but I think I'd get tired of it very quickly.

Presenter44:52

Well, before we send you there, we'll let you choose one more track today. Your final choice. What is it?

Kemi Badenoch MP44:57

Yeah.

Presenter44:57

Uh

Kemi Badenoch MP44:57

My final choice is also from the musical Hamilton, which is a very political musical, but it is Dear Theodosia. And it is where Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr sing to their children, Theodosia and Philip, and they're talking about how they are in politics for them, which is how I feel. And they talk about all the wonderful things they're going to do. And of course, in reality, we know that things don't end well for either of those children. They both die before their parents in terrible circumstances. And there is a tragedy in such a beautiful song, hearing these parents' hopes and aspirations and knowing what is to come. And I find it so emotional. And I think also because one of the worst things that can happen to any of us is to lose our children. I think it's every parent's nightmare. It's certainly my nightmare. So it touches that place, that spooky place, that place where your fears are kept. It touches that bit. It is a tragedy, but it's also a song of hope. And it's a song that explains why many of us who go into politics, even though it is a crazy career, do what we do. And it is for our kids.

Speaker 446:09

You will come of age with our young nation.

Speaker 446:13

We'll bleed and fight for you.

Speaker 446:15

We'll make it right for you

Speaker 446:18

If really a strong enough foundation

Speaker 446:22

We'll pass it on to you.

Speaker 446:24

We'll give the world to you and you'll blow us all away Someday, some day

Speaker 446:34

Yeah, you blow us on the wind

Presenter46:38

Dear Theodosia, from the original Broadway cast recording of Hamilton, performed by Leslie Odom Jr. and Lynn Manuel Miranda. Kemi Bedenook, it is time to cast you away. With the books, of course, I'll give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take another book of your choice. What will you go for?

Kemi Badenoch MP46:55

Yeah.

Presenter46:55

Yeah.

Kemi Badenoch MP46:56

Vanity Fair by William Makepeace Thackeray. And it is because it is the one book of fiction that I have read twice. I tend to read non-fiction more than once, but fiction I read and I put aside. But it was such a great book. What took you back to it? I think I read it twice, once at university and once just after. And it was so funny. There is a lot of comedy in it and a lot of tragedy. And there is something about the character of Becky Sharp which resonates. I understand why she's doing what she's doing initially. You know, she's aspirational. She's born into circumstances she wants to change. The only option is to marry her way out of it. And then she doesn't stop and she goes crazy and she starts doing these terrible things. And I remember the first time reading it thinking, Becky, what are you doing? This is a disaster. Knowing when to stop, quit while you're ahead, I think is a lesson that many people should learn. I wish Becky Sharp had learned to quit while she was ahead.

Presenter47:55

You can also have a luxury item. What will that be?

Kemi Badenoch MP47:58

So I struggled with this one. I was initially thinking about a hot water bottle, but it's already hot on the island. It would be the 22 movies of the Marvel Cinematic Universe Infinity saga. So yes, this is, I think they're absolutely brilliant. This is back to the sci-fi, is it? Yes, this is back to the sci-fi, back to the fantasy. Good triumphing over evil, sacrifice duty. The heroes often lose something along the way, if not family or parents. Doctor Strange, who's my favourite, loses the use of his hands. I think it would be long enough for people to rescue me. By the time I'd finished watching, yes, hopefully somebody would have turned up.

Presenter48:11

Oh yeah.

Presenter48:14

Basically

Presenter48:33

I'd finished watching. Yes. Um hopefully somebody would have turned up.

Presenter48:36

Doctor Strange is your favourite. What's his superpower? Time travel. Is that why he's your favourite?

Kemi Badenoch MP48:41

Is that why

Kemi Badenoch MP48:42

Yes, because you can go back and do it again, which is not something it's something that we never get to do in life. You do it and then it's done.

Presenter48:49

What would you go back and change if if you had that power?

Kemi Badenoch MP48:52

Probably nothing in my life because so much of what's happened to me has made me the the person that I am. I would go back and warn other people, don't do this'cause this is what's going to happen. And being able to give warnings. He's also got a really good cloak.

Presenter49:07

Alright, that luxury is yours. Finally, which one of the eight tracks that you shared with us today would you rush to save if there was only time to rescue one?

Kemi Badenoch MP49:15

Don't stop till you get enough reminds me of my family, young and old, even my children listen to it. And also the message, don't stop till you get enough, would probably encourage me to do everything I could to get off the island as well.

Presenter49:29

Kemi Badenok, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you.

Presenter49:46

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kemmi Badenock. We've cast away many politicians to our desert island, including Sakir Starmer, Nicholas Sturgeon, Servince Cable, Theresa May, Ed Miller Band and Margaret Thatcher. They're all available to listen to on BBC Sounds. The production coordinator for today's programme was Susie Roylands, the content editor was Mugabe Turia and the producer was Sarah Taylor. Next time my guest will be the Astronomer Royal Professor Michelle Docherty. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 250:22

If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft turns out to be flawed?

Speaker 250:28

In 1999, four apartment buildings were blown up in Russia, hundreds killed.

Speaker 250:35

But twenty five years on, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. Because these bombs, they're part of the origin story of one of the most powerful men in the world.

Speaker 250:51

Vladimir Putin.

Speaker 250:53

I'm Helena Merriman and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss first time round?

Speaker 251:03

The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen first on BBC Sounds.