Mary Greenwell

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:48

My castaway this week is the makeup artist Mary Greenwell. For over 40 years, she's been at the glittering forefront of an industry now worth billions to the British economy. She's helped to set trends, to shape our perception of the icons of our age, and to create some of the unforgettable images of our times. She got her big break working with the original supermodels, including Christy Turlington, Linda Evangelista, and Cindy Crawford. She went on to develop a reputation for her less is more approach and became Princess Diana's makeup artist of choice. Everyone from David Bowie and Kate Blanchett to Uma Thurman and Margaret Thatcher have placed their faces in her hands. But she didn't wear as much as a smear of lipstick herself until she was in her early 20s. A free spirit, living and working in 1970s Los Angeles, she was given her first makeup lesson by an industry insider and never looked back. She says, I've never been ambitious. I just always wanted to do really well in whatever I did in my life. And I've only ever done makeup. I don't think I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I feel so blessed. I look back and think, thank you, universe. Mary Greenwell, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Oh, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here with you. Let's start at the beginning. When someone is sitting down in front of you to have their makeup done, where do you start when you're about to make someone up for the first time? Well, for the first time, if I've never met them before, I will certainly kind of engage them with my eyes and with my smile and try to engage them with me. So it's a very gentle process, actually. And then I think the most important thing is one's touch. And this is where, you know, I've been blessed with apparently amazing hands, like they're just spongy. So your hands, you use your hands more than most makeup artists because you don't generally use brushes, do you? I don't. I mean, I will use brushes. You're absolutely right. I will never use brushes for foundation or whatever, but I will use brushes on the eyes for detail. But basically, it's all about the hands.

Mary Greenwell2:46

Oh yeah.

Presenter2:49

And I'm very sort of slapdash in a really controlled way. I mean, it is about precision, but it's not about there's a sort of a fine line with makeup where you can be so perfect it's boring, or just let it look more relaxed and easygoing and just part of you. And is it the latter that you're aiming for? I think so. So tell me a bit more about your guiding principle then. You know, what inspires you? What are you looking to create? My guiding principle is making someone else feel amazing, the person sitting with me then.

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And now I want them to feel completely

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happy, at peace, and in a comfortable place before they're going to do whatever they're going to do, whether it's going to be going on T V, photographs in the studio, or whatever it is I want them to feel the best they can feel.

Presenter3:33

I don't know if it's touching someone's face, but you know, people feel connected when someone is doing their makeup, and the makeup chair is a place where people open up, isn't it? Yeah, people say that, but actually, to be honest, what they will feel hopefully is like 100% comfortable, but they won't necessarily pour out their hearts to you or tell you a life story. Actually, you know, you're not in a position to even accept that. I mean, if you know them very well, then they might, but I don't see it as a psychiatrist chair at all. I just see a place of comfort and friendship and kindness. I mean, those words are very, very important to me. And I think one of the most important aspects to show anybody in life is kindness.

Presenter4:12

So Mary, it's time for your first disc. What have you got for us, and why have you chosen it? So my first choice is Lay, Lady, Lay by Bob Dylan. And this reminds me and my sister and I grew up in the country in Sussex, and

Presenter4:25

He was super important. I remember I was buying one of his albums.

Presenter4:30

And the reason why I love this song is because my mother didn't really, I didn't grow up with music around me in my life at all. So there was no classical music in my household. There was no sort of music in the background or whatever. So when my sister and I put this song on, my mother absolutely loved it. And the only reason the reason why she loved it, she loved the lyrics. Because the lyrics of Le De Lay are absolutely amazing. Saucy though. Exactly, but my mother's quite saucy anyway. So she just loved it. So that's the reason why it's on my list. It reminds me of my mother and my sister, my mother standing in front of the fire, kind of smiling and dancing to this wonderful music.

Mary Greenwell5:01

Lady Lay.

Mary Greenwell5:04

Lay across my big grains beads.

Mary Greenwell5:14

Lay, lay de la

Mary Greenwell5:17

Layer force on big breast baby.

Mary Greenwell5:26

Whatever colours you have.

Mary Greenwell5:29

In your mind

Presenter5:31

Bob Dylan and Lay Lady Lay taking you back to listening with your mother and your twin sister Jane. So let's go back to the beginning Mary Greenwell. You and Jane were born in London 1954. You grew up in Sussex and your mother was 42 when she had you I think so that would have been she would have been had she wanted children for a long time she would have been considered an older mother. She'd been married for 15 years already, 14 and a half years and she never fell pregnant and it was way before

Mary Greenwell5:49

Now

Mary Greenwell5:53

She'd been married for

Mary Greenwell5:55

Unfortunately.

Presenter6:00

Pregnancies were that existed.

Mary Greenwell6:00

Pregnancy is really ecstatic.

Presenter6:02

And so and then for some reason she just fell pregnant suddenly with both of us and it was a gift. I mean it was a bit of a strange thing for my parents I think'cause they were very much they were very independent and wild and wonderful and they sort of they'd found their own way without children. And then long we came so everything changed but I think probably for the better for both of them frankly and they were great parents.

Presenter6:24

In the end, I think it made them extremely happy, but at the beginning I think they were really scared. Before we were born, for example, really scared.

Mary Greenwell6:30

Really scary.

Presenter6:31

that, you know, my goodness, what this is going to change our lives so much, you know.

Presenter6:35

How did they meet? So they met somewhere, I think, at a ball or something. Do you know what I mean? The sort of London life and fell in love and then got married at the beginning of the Second World War. And my mother actually was a Red Cross nurse during the war, in Essex or something. There was a big Red Cross centre there. She was there. My father actually was on a boat called the Aurora. And your father was in the Navy then? So my father was in the Navy during the war, yes. And they both came from comfortable backgrounds and in the photographs that I've seen look very, very glamorous. I mean, tell me about your mother first. So you've described her as wild, as fun. In what way? She was born to a beautiful couple, and her father actually died when she was three years old.

Presenter7:19

So she never knew him. But meanwhile she had a very, very beautiful, eccentric mother, my grandmother, who I sadly never met. And I think it was a time when there was no discipline in children's lives. She lived in the country, but she also lived in London too, and just had this wonderful wild life and was super glamorous. She was a bit of a gambler, wasn't she? Well, I mean, you know, yes, but she never lost a fortune. She was a bit of a gambler, but she never lost money. It wasn't like she went, you know, took the family fortune into the slot machines. I mean, she just did love gambling. And in fact, she used to take me gambling in London in Knightsbridge when I was really, really young. How old were you? Oh, probably 12, 13. 12. Yeah, because then in those days, because I'm kind of getting old, you know, the world was a different place. Children could go anywhere.

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Was she a creative person? She was to a degree. She was an amazing gardener.

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She loved the whatever she did, she did very thoroughly and very, very well.

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But I think again, going back to her lifestyle and the way she was brought up, she didn't have to be anything except herself. So she wasn't going to be expected to to work? No. I mean, I was brought up to follow in the same d footsteps as my parents, which basically, because they were so Victorian, they they were they were born in nineteen my father was born in nineteen eleven, my mother was born in nineteen thirteen. So they were completely Victorian.

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So I used to come up to London in white gloves when I was a child.

Presenter8:42

Isn't that amazing? Literally up to Vixoriotation in white gloves. And if they were having dinner parties on a Saturday night, I would never burst into the room. You know, my sister and I would be sitting on the stairs listening to the chatter. So we had enormous respect, but you we were never sort of stifled.

Presenter8:58

I think that's the most important thing, that we were never stifled, we were just taught to be polite.

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And what about, you know, your mother's sense of aesthetics and and what was beautiful? I mean, did she have a keen sense of style? She does look very chic in the photographs that I've seen. She had the most enormous sense of style and everything around was very beautiful. But what I loved about it was she encouraged me to develop my own creativity. It's sort of a sense of artistry, let's rephrase that, because I didn't know whether it's creative yet or artistry. For example, she used to really encourage me when I was little I used to

Presenter9:29

draw Be the Beatrix Potter animals beautifully and like to perfection and she would be so proud of me and then I would paint outside and paint, you know, the garden or whatever with my little paintbrush. And she was always like admiring and appreciating and judging me and helping me improve what I'd done. And

Presenter9:46

She appreciated sort of beautiful things.

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I used to sit in her bedroom when she was going out on a Saturday night.

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Watching her doing her makeup and getting dressed, it was just divine. The makeup took all of five minutes because it really wasn't, you know, people didn't wear much makeup in those days. So it was no foundation, nothing like that, a bit of powder.

Presenter10:05

mascara and lipstick, basically, the three products we all use, but she was took a lot of time doing it in a loving not in a sort of selfish way, but in a sort of

Presenter10:13

perfecting kind of way, so terribly chic and wonderful.

Presenter10:17

Mary, it's time for your second disc today. What's it gonna be? Okay, so my second disc is I Am Enough by Tallulah Rendell. Now, the reason why I love this song is about three years ago I went to on a retreat in in Guildford.

Presenter10:30

And this song played as we danced around the fire on the Sunday morning before we came up to London. I mean, to be frank, I have to be honest to say.

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Ignorantly. I'd never heard of her before that time, and she is amazing. She's

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A dreamy English artist who's been around for a long time, writes the most beautiful music, writes all her own lyrics and songs, and I just find her absolutely dreamy. And what were the lyrics in this track that spoke to you? I am love and I am enough, you are love and you are enough.

Mary Greenwell10:57

The beauty of life that is wonderful

Mary Greenwell11:03

To know

Mary Greenwell11:06

And said to ourselves that I

Mary Greenwell11:21

But I

Presenter11:23

Uh Uh

Presenter11:26

To Lula Rendell and I am enough. Mary Greenwell, your father Ivor, was an underwriter at Lloyds of London. Tell me about him as a person. What do you remember about his character? He was probably one of the last generation to go from Polba station to London Bridge every morning on the 8.15 train in a bowler hat and umbrella every morning the same seat and go up to London the same seat and come back down again to be at the dinner table at 7.30 every night to have dinner with with me and my twin sister my mother.

Presenter11:56

Did you get to spend much time with him? I did. I had spent quite a lot I mean, every Saturday morning we he used to take us, my my sister and I, to Midhurst in his open Jensen, which was, you know, just amazing. And then my favourite times with him was when he used to take me duck shooting with him in the summer and we used to go down to this pond quite nearby. And the reason why he wanted me with him is so I could stand beside him and light one cigarette after another for him and smoke beside him to keep the mosquitoes away.

Presenter12:24

Literally smoke in his face. Darning, darning, light another cigarette, light another cigarette.

Presenter12:30

But he sounds like a lot of fun, just like your mum. He sounds very spirited, actually. He was extremely spirited, and he was extremely beautiful. He wasn't quite as spirited as my mother was, because she was really, really wild. But he was incredibly sincere and great. And how did you get on with your sister, Jane, when you were growing up? Well, I mean, I was the dreamy one. There was a most amazing oak tree at the top of the paddock. And I used to go and dream, like lie on this oak tree and just look up at the leaves and see the green leaves and the blue sky, sometimes not so blue sky, but just dream under that tree forever. I was a real little dreamer. What were you dreaming about? Can you remember? Just the nothingness, the kind of the emptiness. I think that's where, you know, the spirituality is partly about allowing yourself to be empty, right? I've always been quite good at allowing myself to be empty.

Presenter13:20

So you'd be lying under the oak tree, dreaming. What would Jane be doing? Uh uh running around and causing havoc.

Presenter13:27

She was much more of a troublemaker than I was.

Presenter13:30

She was fi actually far more intelligent than me, she was far more sporty, she was much prettier. She was like I always always felt like the little ugly duckling beside her, like the you know, the the less developed one in every single way. Did you mind that that buddy? Did I mind? Let me think. I must have minded it. I must have naturally minded it, but I had no

Mary Greenwell13:42

But you

Presenter13:47

desire to be her or what and I was certainly wasn't jealous of her, but I'm sure that in many ways she wouldn't have done it on purpose, no way,'cause she was a really sweet person, but she would have undermined me yump.

Presenter13:58

So she sounds like the kind of child who would have found their place quite easily, whereas you were, as you say, more dreamy and more She didn't actually find her place that easily. I mean, that's part of the story, but no, she didn't find her place very easily. You know, I don't think neither of us were expected to, that's the thing.

Mary Greenwell14:06

Find a case that you can

Presenter14:15

The two of you had your own language when you were little. We did. So we used to sit opposite each other on the dining table and talk in this augi taughty language, which means adding a syllable to each word, chatting away from opposite each other, driving our parents absolutely crazy.

Presenter14:29

Um you also had nannies and governesses um helping to look after you when you were young. What do you remember about the women who did that job? Well, my nanny, Nanny Woodgate, was absolutely amazing, the sweetest, kindest person in the world. But we also had district nurses when we were first born.

Mary Greenwell14:31

Damn.

Mary Greenwell14:36

What might

Presenter14:42

I mean, the pictures of us, you know, with nurses and district nurses, you know, with in the real uniform and these children, like sort of covered in lace, my sister and I, on either side of the district nurses. I mean, it was

Presenter14:53

Very out of this world as we know it now. It was the past world.

Mary Greenwell14:56

Yeah.

Presenter14:57

And what about your parents, you know, when when you were being cared for by the nunnies? What was their day-to-day life like? What kind of things were they doing?

Mary Greenwell15:03

So we can find it.

Presenter15:04

Will my father's getting out to work?

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And my mother would just be continuing to have fun, playing bridge, going to races, race meetings. Actually I I'd be lying to say I if I knew what she did every day, I have no idea,'cause I'd probably be at school.

Presenter15:17

I had no education at all, except I went to one amazing school called Arundel. That was my education after my governesses, which of course was no education at all. Why not? Why were the governesses not? Because they were there. I mean, you have to be in, I think, to be educated well, you have to be in a vibe that encourages you to challenge yourself with other people in the room. So it's not like you're comparing yourself, but you're sharing the experience with someone at the top of the room who's really, really good at teaching. If you're with one governess, isn't your twin sister, you can get away with murder. So did you? Of course. What kind of thing? Just like not work. Do nothing. Two of us are much stronger than they were. And what about the holidays that you used to take when you were young? It's so weird to think that my mother used to send my twin sister out to Bogner Regis, which was only 15 miles from where I lived, to go on holiday with my nanny Woodgate. And looking back, you know, how do you see that now? Because there aren't that many parents who would send their kids away 15 miles away for a fortnight. It's quite a long time, isn't it? Yeah, 10 days, actually, probably. How do I see it now? Just like weird behaviour. I mean, just, you know, this kind of...

Mary Greenwell15:29

Yeah.

Mary Greenwell15:45

Hmm.

Mary Greenwell16:20

Just like

Presenter16:24

I mean they sort of just could did anything they wanted. Do you remember enjoying yourself?

Presenter16:30

When you don't know any different.

Presenter16:32

And you're with someone you love, like your nanny?

Presenter16:34

Of course having fun.

Presenter16:36

Mary, let's have some more music. It's your third choice today. What are we going to hear next and why? We're going to hear Suzanne by Leonard Cohen. Again, this song is about the lyrics and the beauty, and it reminds me of all my life. All the songs like all these songs seem to have a connection to my life generally, and this is certainly one of them.

Mary Greenwell16:54

Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river.

Mary Greenwell17:02

You can hear the boats go by

Mary Greenwell17:05

Can we spend the night beside her?

Mary Greenwell17:09

And you know that she's half crazy But that's why you wanna be there And she feeds you tea and oranges That come all the way from China And just wait

Presenter17:24

Leonard Cohen and Suzanne. So Mary Greenwell, when you were 12 you went to boarding school in Sussex. Now you've described yourself as a very shy child. How did you fit in there? I mean as I said to you before, the only education I had since the age of seven and twelve when I went to this amazing school, day school in Pulbaugh. When I transitioned to boarding school I absolutely hated it.

Presenter17:48

For one term I did such a strange thing. I went so into myself it was the spring term before we were leaving at the end of the summer term, so I was sixteen and um I decided to become silent for the for the term.

Presenter18:02

And I didn't speak to anybody. When I bumped into them walking down the corridors at mealtimes, I just went so I don't know what it was psychologically, but I became silent for the term, or let's say most of the term. So that's quite an extreme reaction. You sound like you were really unhappy. No, I think I was experimenting with myself, with other people. I mean, I don't know about unhappy. Was it insecurity? Was it just shyness? Was it to prove something to everyone else? Was it because I didn't really like anybody else? I have no idea.

Presenter18:35

So you were this, you described you and Jane teaming up to terrorise your governesses when you were younger. Did you spend much time with her at school? Were you able to be together? We were different schools.

Mary Greenwell18:44

Yeah.

Presenter18:46

and my parents' side separate us.

Presenter18:49

Because I think they thought that she was more in control of life than I was and certainly more in control of me, frankly. And I think for that reason they separated us.

Presenter18:58

You left school when you were sixteen. Tell me about making that choice. Did you have a plan about what you wanted to do next? I left school when I was sixteen because I certainly wasn't going to finish doing A levels and go on to be educated for any longer'cause I wasn't learning anyway. So it was a completely agreed plan by my parents I would leave school when I was sixteen. Yeah. Yeah. So then

Presenter19:17

In the autumn, I came up to go and went to secretarial school in Knightsbridge. How did you get on there?

Presenter19:23

Unbelievably bad. I couldn't type. Left after about five weeks going, I can't cope with this So that was fine with my parents, they didn't give a damn and so then worked in a in a beautiful art gallery in Grafton Street.

Presenter19:37

Mary, when you were both 18, your father was retiring that same year and he came to you and your sister with a proposition. Tell me about that. What was it? He was going around the world to say goodbye to his clients, like literally around the world. And so, like, my father said, you can either have the coming out ball or you can come around the world with me. And I was like, I don't want to come out ball. So my sister was already sort of living that kind of glamorous life in London. Luckily, my mother stepped in and she agreed that going around the world was more important than coming out in London society. And it was absolutely amazing. So where did you go? I mean, what kind of stuff? We started up in Bombay.

Mary Greenwell20:11

We saw

Presenter20:13

And then went to Hong Kong, where my mother met us in Hong Kong. We were 18 in Hong Kong.

Presenter20:19

Then went on to you know all Singapore, went to Hawaii, then went on to San Francisco, then went on to New York. And that's when I abandoned my family and stayed in America. We were literally going home the next day, or two days later, and I turned round to my father and said to my mother, I said, I'm not coming back to England with you. I'm going to stay in America. How did they react? No problem. Really? Yeah.

Presenter20:45

Do you know why?'Cause they thought I was going to be gone for three weeks.

Presenter20:48

So you started your adventure in Maryland and then headed to Denver, and I think there you hitched a lift in a VW van driven by a man you just met. What happened next?

Presenter20:59

Got in his car, heaven. We picked up two Jesus freaks along the way who were smoking spliff the entire way in the back of the car. They were absolute divine, right? So there's the four of us. And then it's this man, whose lovely young man, whose name I can't remember, sadly, said, um, okay, can you drive now?'Cause I'm quite tired. No problem. And all I had was my provisional license because I just passed I was just 18 in Hong Kong, right? So I only had my provisional license.

Presenter21:23

And suddenly like police car behind us, ding ding ding ding so I said, Oh no, no And I thought they wouldn't know the difference between a provisional license and a real license, so I produced my license, showed it to them.

Presenter21:33

They went by the police car and said, Right, it was a Friday, I remember it was a Friday right, you're coming down to the police station for the weekend, you can see the judge on Monday morning or driving illegally.

Presenter21:43

So then they had this hysterical, hysterical eighteen year old on their hands, right? Like blubbing and screaming and crying not screaming, but certainly blubbing.

Presenter21:51

And they went back to police car.

Presenter21:53

called the judge and said, obviously we've got this hysterical young person in the in the car, and if she comes down to the police station she will cause such havoc,'cause she's just like she can't she won't be able to cope with it, and we can't cope with her, by the way. So the policeman came back to the car and said, Right, the judge will see you now.

Presenter22:11

I mean, it was just so blissfully old-fashioned. The judge and his wife were waiting on the doorstep when I arrived. I was obviously extremely um humble, as I was brought up to be. So they left me, they gave me $300 cash. The judge said, I don't expect you to pay us back. We never expect to see you again.

Presenter22:32

But just get to Los Angeles and go home, little girl. You're too young to be in America.

Presenter22:37

I'm going to pause you there because I'm going to come back to LA. Let's have some more music. It's time for your fourth disc today. What's next and why?

Presenter22:45

So it's Walk on the Wild Side by Lou Reed. Now this would take me straight back to Los Angeles and that time of wonderful freedom and being so irresponsible but in it always in a very kind of good way. I mean I never broke the law or anything because I couldn't wouldn't have actually don't even know how frankly. But just this was just sort of this really Walk on the Wild Side would have said it all about my life in California and New York.

Mary Greenwell23:07

Holly came from Miami, FLA.

Mary Greenwell23:11

Hitchhiked away across USA.

Mary Greenwell23:16

Plucked her eyebrows on the way, Shaved her legs and then he was a she She says hey babe, take a walk on the wild side

Mary Greenwell23:25

Said hey honey, take a walk on the wild side

Presenter23:37

Lou Reed and Walk on the Wild Side.

Presenter23:41

Mary Green, well, you made it to LA, where you stayed with some friends, Bridget and Richard, in Laurel Canyon, in the Hollywood Hills. Bridget was a celebrity writer for the LA Herald Examiner. What do you remember about your first night there?

Presenter23:53

Bridget said to me, she was about to go and see a movie, and she said, Do you want to come and have breakfast with me tomorrow morning? I went, I'd love to. She said, Right, we're having bre breakfast with Clint Eastwood in the morning. So the first morning I arrived in LA I had breakfast with Clint Eastwood in his caravan on the lot of S Universal Studios.

Presenter24:08

What was it like? What did you eat? What did you say? I didn't say a word, I'm sure, but I just remember thinking, how divine. But also, because I was so young.

Presenter24:17

I mean, I knew who Clint Eastwood was, but I wasn't yet in that world. Do you see? So it was like, great, Clint Eastwood. I mean, anyway, I've been like that all my life, quite blasy about everybody because, you know, as far as I'm concerned, we are all equal. So you weren't starstruck.

Mary Greenwell24:22

Mm.

Mary Greenwell24:31

So you weren't star-stroke.

Presenter24:34

And what about the your sense of the future? Did you have any anxieties about the long term and how things were going to work out? I hadn't thought about that yet. Because I was brought up with no plan from the very beginning, as which is pretty obvious at this point in the story, I still didn't feel the pressure to actually discover

Mary Greenwell24:40

Yeah.

Presenter24:52

Anything, I just knew that everything would open up to me naturally.

Presenter24:55

Which of course it did, but this was just my um way, I think, of dealing with things. But by nineteen seventy five you'd started working on the door at Joe Allen's L A restaurant, which sounds like quite a lot of fun. I couldn't serve food'cause I would drop it. I couldn't take orders'cause I would forget them. So all they could do is put me on the door.

Presenter25:12

So what was your role on the door? Was it meeting and greeting? Hello, Paul Newman, here's your table. It was literally that, you know. So Jack Lemmon used to come in after my shifts.

Mary Greenwell25:16

I live.

Presenter25:23

And sit with me at the bar just to have a couple of drinks. It wasn't like he was trying to come on with me, he just was like a really, really lovely man to hang out with.

Presenter25:32

You have said that, you know, throughout this time you were in some ways feeling a little bit lost though. What was going on? I mean, I think I was a little bit lost. I really didn't you know, I now was a little bit older and didn't really know what I was going to do in my future. You know, and that's the thing. You felt I felt lost. I had a wonderful boyfriend at the time, whatever. I didn't feel I was necessarily in a good place. I knew that my angels were doing their job extremely well and I was being protected, but I still felt what am I going to do?

Presenter25:56

And my friends bought a theatre in Beverly Hills. It used to be a movie theatre and turned into this incredible big shop, right, Fioruchi. And um they came in one Sunday and looked at me and I was twenty-three now look up at me and said, Wow, why hadn't we thought of you before? You'd be perfect around the make-up counter.

Presenter26:18

So I said, but hold on, this face has never won't make up in its life. Which is actually true, right? Don't worry, we'll send you to New York and we'll train you, which is what happened. Another angel step. So another incredibly lucky break. Incred. I mean, you know, an absolute gift. Yes, a lucky break, if that's the way you want to put it. I would say just an angel step. And you didn't just learn from anybody. I mean, you were learning the tricks of the trade from. Ilana Harkavi, who owned Il Makiash.

Mary Greenwell26:29

So no.

Mary Greenwell26:37

I know.

Mary Greenwell26:41

Ilana Ha.

Presenter26:45

Ilana took me down to her tiny studio which was absolutely minute and I shook me down and did my makeup but she didn't do it in it was now it was a David Berry period in the 70s right we could have put like a lightning the Aladdin scene exactly exactly on my face but she didn't do that she just made me look really really better than I looked already like total enhancement which is where my whole inspiration for makeup comes from

Mary Greenwell26:57

It could have been lightning.

Presenter27:07

She taught me through what she did, obviously. This is the only makeup lesson I've ever had in my life. One lesson. One lesson. That was it.

Presenter27:14

Then I went back onto the floor at Fioruchi the next morning and was amazing at selling makeup because it was New York, it was Park Avenue, and I think 60th Street, I mean, very, very chic area. And all the New York women just loved coming in and buying makeup from this little English girl. And how did it feel for you to find something that you were great at, that you really had a desire for? I loved it. I wasn't surprised because I knew my angels would always look after me. So you just had a strong belief everything was going to work out in your favour. Yeah, but it had not all of it has. I mean, you know, there's certain sadnesses in my life. You know, I've been in love quite a few times, but I've never got married because I always thought that I'd be lying if I did. In what way?

Mary Greenwell27:42

So that's great.

Mary Greenwell27:45

Your favour.

Presenter27:58

I think either th they I always felt they were either gonna leave me or I would leave them and I just felt and I because marriage was quite sacred when I was brought up and I think I didn't want to be, you know, a divorcee or sort of have that

Presenter28:09

know that actually it's not going to last. I'm going to divorce you in five years' time. I never wanted that on my shoulders before I walked down the aisle. And I always had that feeling that that's what happened, so I could not walk down the aisle. So you couldn't commit? No. No, I couldn't walk down the aisle. I could commit for the time I was with them, but I couldn't commit to long term marriage.

Presenter28:28

And do you regret that? Do you have regrets? No, I don't regret it'cause I was honestly being honest to myself and to the people I was with.

Presenter28:34

Mary, let's take a minute for your next disc. What's next? The next one is Um Wish You Were Here by Pink Floyd. You know, Pink Floyd was so important in my life.

Presenter28:44

And they always have been. I've been to so many shows of theirs. I've you know, I've watched them I literally watched them grow up. I mean we're the same generation. And what does this track mean to you, or does it freedom?

Presenter28:54

Joy, them, it reminds me of them. Also it reminds me of my lovely friend Poe who did the did all the album covers for Floyd. And he was in London Canyon and that famous cover on the Universal set with one with The Man on Fire. Yes. Oh, iconic. Iconic. So he I was with him when he did that.

Mary Greenwell29:12

So

Mary Greenwell29:14

So you think he could tell?

Mary Greenwell29:19

Heavens and hell!

Mary Greenwell29:23

Blue skies from pain

Mary Greenwell29:27

Can you tell a green field?

Mary Greenwell29:31

On the Coal Steel Rail

Mary Greenwell29:36

A smile from a veil

Mary Greenwell29:40

Do you think you can tell?

Presenter29:44

Pink Floyd and Wish You Were Here. Mary Greenwell, you worked for Ilana Harkavi's company, Il Machiage, on the shop floor for two weeks and then she took you along to a shoot with a very young Brooke Shields. She was just twelve, I think. What happened? She said, Mary, why don't you go and do the make up? instead of me.

Presenter30:03

Like I'd only been working I've been on the shop floor for ten days and I was suddenly doing bookshelves make up for a magazine cover. The photographer was Scavulo.

Mary Greenwell30:03

Like ideally been working recently.

Presenter30:13

who was shooting all the covers for Glamour magazine at the time in New York City.

Presenter30:17

So I was like, Okay, Mary, you better pull yourself together. I mean, now this is your real test. This is like, okay, you can do it, you can do it, you can do it, you can do it, you can do it So I did Brooke's make up, really nervous, obviously, but you know, didn't show it to Brooke.

Presenter30:30

and um came came back out and said to Ilana and the photographer.

Presenter30:34

So she came out and they went, Lovely, thank you, Mary.

Presenter30:37

How did you feel? I went and the make up room and cried.

Mary Greenwell30:42

I live in the middle.

Presenter30:44

Kind of, I didn't cry hysterically. I was like, oh my goodness, I've done it, I've done it, I've done it. I was so nervous, you know.

Mary Greenwell30:50

Yeah.

Presenter30:50

But isn't it interesting that it obviously mattered to you so much having been this person who was kind of drifting and didn't really have a plan? It sounds like you'd found something that you cared about. I'm a perfectionist when I do something. You know, if I do it, I do it well. If I can't do it, I won't do it at all. And so also, I'm sitting with now my boss, about to go to Los Angeles to open up El Makiash in Fiuuchi. There was a lot of love and trust put into me, and I could not let them down.

Mary Greenwell30:57

It's like you found it.

Mary Greenwell30:59

You cared about

Presenter31:17

Mary, you once said that once you started to get into doing makeup, continuing a career as a makeup artist frightened you, which I find very interesting. What frightened you about it?

Presenter31:29

I think the commitment.

Presenter31:31

Again, it's like that thing: do I just stay kind of like hippy-dippy, which I think I definitely was, or do I commit myself? Well, Mary, you did decide to commit and ended up moving to Paris in 1984. On the morning of your departure, you had one last job to do in London: the Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher's make-up for a TV interview. How did that go?

Presenter31:52

She was phenomenal. Whether you liked her or not, she was still a phenomenal woman.

Presenter31:55

Was I nervous? Probably a bit. Yes, let's face it, Mary. But, you know, quite flattered to be doing this woman's makeup. It was actually for a BBC broadcast about the Co-minor Strike. The minor strike, right?

Mary Greenwell32:05

Right.

Presenter32:06

And um I was taken into her sitting room in Ten Dining Street, her private sitting room, and told to set up.

Presenter32:13

And then um I could hear this booming voice coming down the stairs. Oh my goodness, I'm I'm a little bit nervous now. In Margaret Thatcher, I had the most amazing two hours with her.

Presenter32:24

Did you? Why was it amazing? What was she like? Because she was so kind and sweet to me and we talked about Carol, who's the same age as me. Her daughter. Yep. And she was very interested in how I felt emotionally and what I was doing and what I was up to. And then she said to me at the end of me doing her makeup, she said, Do you want to come and watch me filming?

Mary Greenwell32:26

Plus

Presenter32:40

Sergey, I'd love to, thank you so much. So I went into the now put now set up by the B B C, this whole set up for her to do the filming. She sat in the front of the camera. She made one mistake in her speech.

Presenter32:53

which would lasted about probably fifteen minutes. And at the end of the interview she said, We have to do it again and they said, Why is it?'Cause I made a mistake. So she did it all again, right from the beginning to the very end.

Presenter33:05

Didn't we like one mistake?

Presenter33:07

Then she got up, came over to me, said goodbye to everybody, including me, came over to me and said, Good luck, Mary. Have a lovely time in Paris this afternoon. I wish you the best of luck and walked out, and that was that was my experience with Margaret Thatcher.

Presenter33:19

So tell me about moving to Paris then. You became famous along with the original supermodels. Tell me about working together, coming up together in that way. It was it was a real moment in fashion history.

Mary Greenwell33:25

Yeah.

Presenter33:33

So we were all living in Saint Germain, in this little hotel or in little apartments surround around Saint Germain. Christy Turnington, Cindy Crawford, Linda Evangelista, and Tatiana Petits. Those are the original four. I did Cindy's first cover um the small French magazine, literally her first cover ever.

Presenter33:49

I never sort of saw myself as becoming famous, quote unquote. So I think it was really about just being accepted as someone who could do their job very, very well. Because during that first summer, I worked with Hans Führer, who is the most divine photographer ever. And he we got on really, really well. And he was going to Hawaii with Grace Connington in the spring.

Presenter34:12

A British fag.

Presenter34:13

and he wanted to take me with him, and I hadn't met her yet. I mean, she is the most important stylist ever, yes? So I had to meet Grace, and I met her in the Creon Hotel.

Presenter34:23

and really nervously, and luckily she really liked me, so she agreed to take me with her to Hawaii.

Presenter34:29

With Hans Fuhrer for two weeks to do all the like June, July summer spreads of swimwear, whatever. Had the most amazing time, and then Grace booked me for the next three years nonstop. And what did that do for your confidence?

Mary Greenwell34:42

Do you

Presenter34:43

It didn't do it what it did was change my career. The respect I you know I got from working with Grace was extraordinary.

Presenter34:51

Mary, it's time for your next piece of music, your sixth choice today. What are you taking to your desert island next? I'm taking Cold Little Heart by Michael Kiwanuka. Because I find the lyrics again, going back to the lyrics, I find the lyrics unbelievable. It touches me enormously.

Mary Greenwell35:08

Did you ever want it?

Mary Greenwell35:12

Did you want it bad?

Mary Greenwell35:14

Oh my.

Mary Greenwell35:18

There's me a palm

Mary Greenwell35:25

You ever fight it?

Mary Greenwell35:29

All of the pain

Mary Greenwell35:31

So Mark Brown.

Presenter35:36

Michael Kiwanuka and Cold Little Heart. Mary Green, well, in nineteen ninety you worked on a shoot for Vogue magazine with your good friend, the hairdresser Sam McKnight. The photographer was Patrick De Marchelier and the model was Princess Diana.

Presenter35:51

What do you remember about that day?

Presenter35:53

It was so lovely. We were in it was in a studio in East London.

Presenter35:57

And we hadn't been told who the the modeller was who was turning up.

Presenter36:00

So we were like, who are we doing? I mean, what's you know, what's the secret? What's the big deal? And um she walked in, she was amazing. I'd been around celebrities all my life. I'd been around, you know, Paul Newman, first celebrity I met in Hollywood. I was not in any way in awe of the Princess of Wales. I just thought she was the most beautiful young woman

Presenter36:20

But I wasn't in awe of her, you know. She'd had quite a different look starting out in the early years. You know, she began with that dough-eyed blue eyeliner that we all remember. And as you went on to work together and work with her, you know, you helped her create quite a different look, quite a different image. Tell me about that. Well, I mean, Sam cut her hair almost immediately.

Mary Greenwell36:35

British.

Presenter36:40

But then, you know, the thing is that I did not put the blue eye shadow and the blue eyeliner on her that day even. I made it much more soft and more natural. Actually it was kind of quite a a pretty sweet look. Rather this rather fierce blue actually.

Presenter36:54

And there was something about the photography as well that had an informality about it, had a kind of naturalness, a natural quality. There's that very famous shot of her in she's in a white, strapless white dress, sitting on the floor with her, you know, her arms wrapped around her knees, laughing. With the tiara on her head, famous tiara. But quite kind of informal and fun. And that was a different, very different from the image that we were used to seeing of her. Indeed. Well, that's Patrick, because Patrick's such a natural photographer. And also Patrick was the fastest photographer you could ever imagine. So that would have been like, oh, baby, stay there, don't move, baby, don't move, baby, don't move, baby, baby, baby, baby, don't move. And it would have been five shots, bang done.

Mary Greenwell37:12

But they

Mary Greenwell37:15

And fun.

Mary Greenwell37:30

Bib baby baby

Presenter37:34

With Princess Diana, you developed a relationship over a period of years. You know, you worked together for a long time.

Presenter37:41

How does that evolve? I used to go and see her sometimes just because she had nothing because she wanted to see me. And so I used to go down there and sit with her and do her makeup and have fun. And one time I went down there for the s for the sake of it. I think it really was just for the sake of it to, you know, have a lovely morning with her. And she said, um, Do you want to stay for lunch? I went, Sure, okay. So in her dining room

Presenter38:02

um at Kensington Palace. There was a lovely, great big round table, and I was so honoured.

Presenter38:08

And so I had lunch at the dining table with the Prime Minister and other people of super importance, and there I was just sitting there having the best time.

Presenter38:16

Mary, your career was going from strength to strength, but as you mentioned, you know, you have had some difficult times in your life and one of those came in in 2012 when you suffered a a huge personal loss. Your sister Jane died. She'd been living with a heroin addiction for many years. How much had you understood about what was happening, what she was going through?

Presenter38:38

Um

Presenter38:39

I understood quite a lot, frankly, um because I was not naïve. You described her at the beginning as as being the one who found everything easy. You know, she was sporty, she was tall, she was smart. She didn't find her way quite so easily in life. No, because I'm afraid um drugs took over.

Presenter38:56

Non, she wasn't the only one taking drugs at the time. Everyone was taking drugs. Other people managed to stop, but she didn't.

Presenter39:03

Did your parents know? Were they worried about it upsetting? Um, they did, but they weren't I mean, in the end actually my sister was kind of amazing because in the end she looked after my parents'cause she now had nowhere else to live. She had no money, so she's living at home.

Presenter39:17

Were you able to spend time with her? Were you close at the end of her life? Um.

Presenter39:22

I think I was living all over the place. I was now travelling the world all the time. So I wasn't able to spend that much time with her. But luckily, I was at home.

Mary Greenwell39:28

Mm-hmm

Presenter39:30

The night she passed away.

Presenter39:32

I mean, I'm in England, which was great, because I can go and be with her. Was she in hospital? She was in hospital. And so I said to the doctor.

Mary Greenwell39:36

She was in hospital.

Presenter39:39

Should I bring her her son with me? And she went, We probably should. So I called up Benji and and I picked him up on the way down and we went to see her and we were by her bedside when the doctor came along and said We're turning everything off now.

Presenter39:55

And Benji

Presenter39:57

was obviously absolutely devastated and it was the most awful moment. But, you know, she went she went in peace.

Presenter40:04

And have the two of you remain close, you and your nephew? 100%. Really close. It's all good. Mary, I think we should have some more music on that note.

Presenter40:13

What's your next disc? So my next one is Diamonds by Rihanna. And the reason why I've chose this song is because actually it reminds me of my sister. After she passed away, Benji was at school for another term. And this song was in the top ten for about nine weeks or something. So we listened to it every weekend going back to school. So you would drive him to school? Yeah. And Diamonds. So we saw my sister's The Diamond in the Sky, which is incredibly. It can make me cry again.

Presenter40:42

So she wrote this song for me and Benji.

Presenter40:45

For my sister.

Presenter40:48

Yeah.

Mary Greenwell40:48

Shame.

Presenter40:48

But

Mary Greenwell40:48

Yeah. Yeah. Uh

Presenter40:49

I'm

Mary Greenwell40:53

Shine bright like a diamond.

Mary Greenwell40:58

Find light in the beautiful sea I chose to be happy You and I, you and I We're like diamonds in the sky You're a shooting star I see A vision of ecstasy When you hold me

Mary Greenwell41:15

I'm a lie, we're like diamonds

Presenter41:18

Rihanna and Diamonds. Mary Green, well, during the course of our conversation today you've been quite self deprecating. Why is that, do you think? Have I? I think you have. Oh, how interesting.

Presenter41:29

Um

Presenter41:30

I didn't know. I mean, I don't think I was brought up to seem in any way bigger than I am. You know, I was always being brought up I mean, it's part of being polite, I think. But I've had, you know, again, a wonderful life and I've been very blessed.

Presenter41:44

And do you think that you had this sense of safety partly because of your background?

Presenter41:49

I think a hundred per cent I was brought up to feel very secure within my position in society. So yes, I think that that allowed me to basically be what I wanted to be without any fear at all. So you had that that freedom that privilege brings? Exactly. I'm a you know, for better or for worse, yes.

Presenter42:07

You know, nowadays beauty standards are shifting. I mean, we do hear a lot about women like Jamie Lee Curtis and Pamela Anderson talking about ageing naturally, but women in the public eye are still held to a very high standard, quite a narrow set of beauty standards. What's your approach to dealing with that? And do you feel those pressures too? Within myself, not really.

Presenter42:32

You know, I'm going to tell you something very honestly on the radio right now. I was going to have a facelift, but I've cancelled it. You have? I've cancelled it. Why? Because I suddenly realised, why am I doing this? I don't need to do this. I'm the age I'm at. I really don't need to put myself through that. So I cancelled it, and I'm really glad I have done so. Well, you don't need a facelift. You look sensational. But it's interesting, I mean, you know, how do you deal with it in terms of the clients that you work with and their insecurities, the pressures that they're under and that they face? Well, it's going right back to our first conversation about, you know, being looking them in the eye, being honest, being kind.

Presenter43:09

Being polite and being very, very gentle at the same time. Forcefully gentle, not gentle, submissive gentle, but forcefully gentle to make them feel more confident.

Presenter43:18

Mary, your sense of fun has played an adventure, has played such a big part of your in your story and leading you to where you've got today. You know, you started out as that kid hitchhiking and exploring the States, and here you are now. How have you been able to keep that sense of fun throughout your life? Because it is something that people often lose as they get older. Well, maybe because I have remained single, maybe because I haven't got the responsibility of children, maybe because I've never felt the pressure of holding a standard for some sweet, lovely man in my life, maybe because I've always been so individual and so

Presenter43:56

Non-committed to anybody at all, even commitment towards myself. Do you know, it's just like living from day to day, in a sense.

Presenter44:03

It's almost time to cast you away to our desert island. What will your survival strategy be when you're there?

Presenter44:09

Staying as peaceful as possible. I'm going to make my island very, very, very safe. Okay, so my design is going to be very lush, very green. It's kind of a small, it becomes very much my home in its size and knowing the vegetation really, really well. And it's totally green and gorgeous. It turns around. And a few monkeys, by the way. Oh, you've got monkeys. Oh, yeah, but really friendly ones.

Mary Greenwell44:26

And got my f

Presenter44:31

It sounds like you're quite looking forward to it, Mary. I'm not dreading it at all. Fabulous. Well, listen, one more disc before we cast you away there. What's your final track going to be today? So my final track is Heroes by David Bowie. David Bowie was actually quite an important person in my life. I met him with Emman down in South Africa with Bruce Weber and Grace Coddington when we were shooting Vogue with Emman. And then we got on so well. So I toured with him in America and it was just like he was the easiest, most relaxed person in the world and I absolutely adored him. Not at all, I mean just no ego. I mean he was just a really intelligent man and to be sitting with him in his apartment in New York, Central Park, looking out over the park with him there was just like an experience of a lifetime.

Mary Greenwell45:19

Uh

Mary Greenwell45:31

No nothing.

Mary Greenwell45:35

He drives them away.

Mary Greenwell45:40

We can't beat them.

Mary Greenwell45:43

Just the one

Presenter45:44

David Bowie and Heroes. So, Mary Greenwell, it is almost time to send you away to the island. You won't just have your desks for company, I'm also giving you the books to take with you. You'll have the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and of course, one other book. What have you chosen? A book by Mishima called The Temple of the Golden Pavilion, because I haven't read it yet.

Presenter46:05

I love his writing, I love his books. So I thought it would be a great opportunity to be something new by him. What about a luxury item, Mary? What will that be? You're going to think I'm really lazy. I don't really care what you all think of me. I'm going to take a seven-foot square bed of the most divine mattress in the world with the best linen in the world. Oh, yes. That will be changed to me quite regularly, of course, by the angels. New linen, new linen, new linen. Okay, so a self-changing bed. Correct.

Mary Greenwell46:27

New linen, new linen, new linen.

Presenter46:32

And finally, Mary, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us to day would you save from the waves if you needed to? I would say I am Enough, because it is such a beautiful long song. And also the lyric I am Enough, I am Love, I am Enough, would hold me

Presenter46:49

In good stead, all the time.

Presenter46:52

Mary Greenwell, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you so much. It's been amazing. I'm so honored to be on this program, I can't tell you. You have no idea how I'm feeling.

Presenter47:23

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Mary, and I'm pretty sure she'll get some quality sleep on the island. We've cast away other hair and beauty experts, including makeup artist Pat McGrath and hairdressers Videl Sassoon and Trevor Sorby. Kate Blanchett, one of Mary's clients, is in our archive too. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, the executive production coordinator was Susie Roylance, the content editor was Mugabe Turia, and the producer was Paula McGinney. Next time, my guest will be the actor Lenny James. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 448:06

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes.

Speaker 448:15

I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define Tough.

Speaker 348:21

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eye walls are going to come out.

Speaker 448:28

Out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to history's toughest heroes on BBC Sounds.