Maggie Alphonsi

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:52

My castaway this week is the broadcaster and former rugby player Maggie Alfonse. She's been described as the best female rugby player of her generation and her trajectory as a star athlete has followed the changing fortunes of her sport. She started out at her local club, playing in kit handed down from the men's team and only getting on the pitch when the men didn't want to use it. By the time she retired, she'd won 74 caps for her country, was part of the England team that won the 2014 Women's Rugby World Cup and had been awarded an MBE for services to rugby. Her sport, meanwhile, had acquired a global audience. Her achievements are all the more remarkable considering the obstacles she's had to overcome. She was born with talapes, the disability commonly known as clubfoot, raised in a single-parent family facing challenging circumstances and had to hold down a day job throughout much of her sporting career. Ten years on from retirement, she's established herself as a commentator and will be part of the BBC's broadcast team for the Women's Rugby World Cup, which will see England compete on home soil. She says, I want people to take from my story that you can step out of your comfort zone. You can challenge yourself. You can bounce back when hurdles knock you down. I know it's cheesy, but aim high, find something you want to go for and go for it. Maggie Alfonse, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you for having me. It's absolute pleasure to be here. Now, Maggie, we'll hear today that you really like a challenge, but you have said that you've always aimed to be number two in your career rather than number one. Why is that?

Maggie Alphonsi2:23

Uh

Presenter2:24

Uh

Maggie Alphonsi2:24

I have always been a bit of a fighter and the idea of being number one almost seems like I've I've reached my my pinnacle. I think having the perception that you're number two means that you keep pushing, you keep working hard, you keep striving to be better and and never accept. And I think I've stuck with that throughout my life because it keeps me.

Presenter2:46

Me hungry? And while we're talking numbers, Maggie, you played in the number seven position. Now, to the uninitiated, what is the number seven's role in a game? They are

Maggie Alphonsi2:54

Are a bit more, let's say, unruly. They just do their own thing, but they're very good at getting that ball back. Very physical, very fit, makes big tackles. That's what I was known for. I was Maggie the Machine. And my thinking would be: I really hope prior to this game that opposition are doing their game plan and thinking, how do we stop Maggie?

Presenter3:16

We often saw you on the pitch wearing a scrum cap, and you said that putting it on made you feel invincible. How different did you feel when you were becoming the person you had to be on the pitch?

Maggie Alphonsi3:26

Having a scrum hat was a really good way of sort of getting me focused, especially in a team sport. There's lots of different personalities. There are so many things happening before you cross that line onto the field that you can get easily distracted. But as soon as I put that scrum hat on, I was in the zone. I knew what my job was. I knew I had to execute. And it's funny when I got off the field and took my scrum hat off, it's all of a sudden you switch again, you turn into this normal person and you get on with the opposition. But I needed the scrum hat to give me that level of focus.

Presenter3:54

Turn it is not

Presenter4:01

You're part of the BBC's commentating team for this summer's Women's Rugby World Cup. It's happening here in this country. What are you hoping that the legacy of this tournament will be for women's rugby?

Maggie Alphonsi4:12

I hope that we change the perception of women's rugby. If you watch during the Six Nations, we're starting to get sell out stadiums. I think for one of the fixtures we had just under fifty thousand.

Maggie Alphonsi4:27

When I was playing for England, it was special if you've even got 10,000. You know, that was huge. So the interest has grown, the sponsorship has grown, broadcasting coverage has grown. I mean, we're talking about it on Desert Island Disc. I mean, this is rare. So I'm really pleased over the last few years how much it has grown. And it's not just women's rugby, it's women's sport. Women's football's gone through the roof in terms of how much coverage they get. Women's cricket, netball. All of that has improved. So what I hope following this Rugby World Cup is that I want more people to also take up the sport. You know, for me, it didn't just change my life, it saved my life. And I think it's really important the next generation show them how amazing rugby union is. I mean, Lauren, have you played yet? Have we got you in Nob.

Speaker 14:40

This is a rubber.

Presenter5:10

But have you not played rugby yet? No, I'm still I mean, it's complicated. I'm enjoying getting my head around it. We're doing the research for today, but I haven't actually tackled a misshapen ball yet.

Maggie Alphonsi5:20

Never say never. I think you'd make a really good scrum half. So I think let's let's chat after this episode. I think we'll get you in. I'll teach you something. It's a scrum half. Why would I make a good scrum half? Because you're very good at talking. So most scrum halves are very, very yappy. They talk a lot. They're very good with the referee. So I think you'd be good at that. I'm not saying your ability around the other areas wouldn't be great, but you're very vocal.

Presenter5:25

Okay.

Presenter5:37

Same your bill.

Presenter5:41

You're very vocal. You're bang right there, Maggie. I can't argue with that. All right, I think we better get into the music before I talk my way onto a rugby team. Disc number one, Maggie. What are we going to hear first?

Maggie Alphonsi5:42

Right there.

Maggie Alphonsi5:50

This number one is Fast Car by Tracy Chapman and I've selected this one because it pretty much represents my my upbringing. So I grew up in a council state, single parent family and all I wanted to do was almost find a way out and this song just represents that.

Speaker 46:10

You got a fast car I got a job that pays all our bills And still drinking played at the bar and see more your friends than you do your kids I'd always hope for better Thought maybe together you and me find you got no plans, I ain't goin' nowhere Just take a fast car and keep on driving

Speaker 46:36

I remember when we were driving, driving in your car.

Presenter6:40

Tracy Chapman and Fast Car. So Miguel Fonza, you were born in South London in 1983, but actually grew up in North London, in Edmonton. Now it was just you and your mum, Rebecca. She was born in Nigeria. What made her move to the UK?

Maggie Alphonsi6:55

She'd come over here on holidays quite frequently and then started to study here. What was she studying? Well, she was studying secretarial skills. So she ended up getting a job later on in the Nigerian embassy and she met my father as well. They got married via arranged marriage and as a result ended up staying over here in England. My mum talks very little about her past because I understand it's not been easy for her and I think one of the big bits that I've taken away from what she's told me is that she did it all on her own. So yeah, she was married to your dad but he wasn't in your life. When did he leave? That's correct. Not long after I was born. This is why I think she's amazing. She's absolutely resilient. To be able to raise a child on her own.

Presenter7:01

What she studied?

Maggie Alphonsi7:46

Single parent, in a block of flats, twenty-two floors, very limited funds at the time.

Maggie Alphonsi7:54

That's heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking.

Presenter7:56

You said that she'd had a a tough time. I mean, life before she came to the UK. Did she have family? Did she have connections back there?

Maggie Alphonsi8:03

Yeah, so um she was one of six.

Maggie Alphonsi8:07

It's an interesting one. One of six, but a really challenging upbringing. You know, in the culture back then, in particular, arranged marriages were quite normal. My mum, being one of six, I think, also found it quite hard that she was very driven, was very progressive, and I think fell out with a lot of her siblings as a result of that. And as, I guess, things turned out, she decided to leave.

Presenter8:34

So she was pushed into an arranged marriage at r back at home before she moved to the UK.

Maggie Alphonsi8:39

That's correct, yeah. And she also had two children before I came into the world, my half brother and half sister with another relationship. So for my mother to leave Nigeria was quite a big decision. And I think for her it was more around I can't be in this environment any longer. I am struggling, not happy. My children are doing well.

Maggie Alphonsi9:08

And I just need to get out of this environment.

Presenter9:11

Were you able to establish a relationship or maintain contact with them?

Maggie Alphonsi9:15

So unfortunately sort of lost contact with my sister in particular Latoya but maintained contact with my half-brother Aziz through letters phone calls and then I guess if you fast forward he passed away yeah and I don't really know the ins and outs of it I think just a horrible incident that occurred in Nigeria

Presenter9:33

They are presented.

Maggie Alphonsi9:40

I think when I think about that experience, it's hard to know that you have a half-brother that you never met, you don't really know a lot about his history, his upbringing, because my mother struggled to talk about all of the experiences that she had back in Nigeria. It's hard, at that time was hard as well. And even now, talking about it, I'm struggling to get a lot of words out because I guess being an athlete, I've learnt to just put things down and not talk about it if they've been quite challenging in my life.

Presenter10:10

And Maggie, what about your biological father? You know, he's he wasn't in your life growing up. Did were you ever tempted to track him down?

Maggie Alphonsi10:19

If I'm going to be really honest, absolutely not. No. It's interesting because my surname is Alfonse, that's his name. But since retiring, I actually do use my mother's maiden name in between anyway, so I'm also Sanny Alfonse, so I'm very proud of the Sanny. But it's quite upsetting and disappointing when you think someone could leave another person to raise a child.

Maggie Alphonsi10:44

That makes me think I definitely do not want to make any connection with this person. I do not want to give them any credit. I do not want them to feel that they had any contribution whatsoever to my life, because I've been successful and I owe that to my mother, and she deserves that credit.

Presenter11:00

It's time for disc number two, Maggie.

Maggie Alphonsi11:02

What have you chosen? This is They Live in You from the Lion King. So I love going to musicals and I've seen The Lion King probably about five or six times in various different countries to be honest. And I love this song because it very much represents legacy, having an impact and seeing those that have made an impact in your life. And now that I'm a parent, I always think about my children and then one day looking up to the stars and going, actually, my two mums worked incredibly hard to enable us to be successful. And I think this song in particular with Mufasa and Simba sort of symbolises that.

Speaker 411:44

Yeah.

Speaker 411:46

Take where the mother

Speaker 411:48

Night.

Speaker 411:51

And the spirit of life.

Speaker 411:55

Calling

Speaker 412:00

Mammila

Speaker 412:04

And a voice.

Presenter12:09

They Live in You from the musical Lion King performed by Samuel E. Wright with the original Broadway cast. Maggie Alfonci, you were born with talapes, the disability commonly known as club foot. How much impact did that have on you as you grew up?

Maggie Alphonsi12:24

Uh

Presenter12:25

Uh

Maggie Alphonsi12:25

I didn't really know about it when I was growing up, not until I started to get into the England setup and then progress further.

Maggie Alphonsi12:34

And I remember one of the doctors in our England team saying,

Maggie Alphonsi12:38

Was you born with? He said he used the term club for at the time, and I said, I don't, I don't actually know a lot about it. He goes,'cause you've got a really big scar on your, effectively, your Achilles.

Maggie Alphonsi12:49

And it looks like you've had an operation. You must have had an operation when you were young. So I went away and talked to my mum about it and she was like, yeah, when you were born, you were born... This is what typical my mum's like. She's like, yeah, when you were born, you were born with a club foot. Your right foot was turned in. So she said, I had an operation. Then I was in the cast and the boot. And she's like, you got on with it, but you're really young. You know, the operation happens as soon as you're pretty much born because that's when your bones are really soft. When I was young though, I did feel slightly conscious about the way I walked, my gait. So whenever we did Sports Day, I used to almost hate being in a relay and being the final person because I know everyone's going to be watching the way I run. You know, my foot was still slightly turned in. I was really conscious about it. But now that I'm older, I've been through sport, I've been able to win a Rugby World Cup and still have that condition, I feel really proud. And you know what? I can do anything. And that's what I always say to parents who have children who are born with it. They can do anything.

Presenter13:46

Maggie, tell me a little bit more about family life growing up, you and your mum, because you've told me about her character. She sounds absolutely formidable. But what was daily life like for you? You know, she must have been working extremely hard to support the two of you.

Maggie Alphonsi14:00

Yeah, she worked long hours, so I spent a lot of my time either with a babysitter or a child minder. I was very fortunate. Mum has always been there for me. But I have to be quite street-wise. I had to be independent as a result of that. I just sort of managed my own, I guess, progress, managed my own challenges. But I don't regret it. I learnt more about myself and I also am more aware of where I want to go. So I have no regrets. How did you get on at school?

Maggie Alphonsi14:39

Lauren, do you want the honest truth? Yes, we do. Unvarnished. Give it to me. I was. I was a good kid. I was a challenging child as well. And we'd been at the back of the class creating trouble to the point where I'd normally get kicked out of my lessons. So I was a smart child, but I just for some reason didn't engage in the school content. What was going on there, do you think, looking back?

Presenter14:40

Yes, I can do unvarnished.

Maggie Alphonsi15:01

I would say

Maggie Alphonsi15:03

I wanted attention and

Maggie Alphonsi15:06

I guess I wasn't getting a lot of it in the upbringing that that I had, but when I came into a school environment, if I acted up

Maggie Alphonsi15:14

People would see me, people would notice me.

Presenter15:17

And what were your mum's expectations of you at school? Was she quite traditional? Did she want you to do well?

Maggie Alphonsi15:22

My mother was typical Nigerian mother, you know, go and be a doctor, go and be a lawyer.

Presenter15:28

So, how did this trouble making go down with her? She was not impressed.

Maggie Alphonsi15:33

So when you're at school you get given these report cards if you're naughty and you could see on the report card that I've been quite difficult and then if you continue to be challenging it gets escalated to a head teacher report card which is a red card. I mean it very much equivalent to rugby now. So having that red card was not a good thing. Did you get there? I got there and I was that close to being excluded.

Speaker 415:48

Oh yeah.

Speaker 115:48

Yeah.

Maggie Alphonsi15:57

What have you done? Just my consistent level of behaviour. Every now and again, not going into my lessons, being disruptive. You scared the fights? Laura, I knew you were going to bring that up. Yes, I did. I used to get into a lot of fights. I mainly got into fights with the boys. And I did win all those fights. So I am so proud of myself.

Speaker 116:07

Are you specifying?

Presenter16:17

So I'm

Presenter16:19

We're laughing about it, you know, now talking. But actually, there must have been a moment where it was kind of, oh, this isn't funny, actually, this is quite scary.

Maggie Alphonsi16:28

Yeah, turning point is I remember having a fight with another girl at the time, we were obviously young, and I remember the police being called. It was the first time something had ever escalated to that level, and the police brought both my mum and her parents together and we talked. And at that very moment in time, I just thought, this is ridiculous. How can I get to this point, disappoint my mother? I knew her parents and they looked so disappointed by the situation as well. And it really did become a wake-up call for me. I just got on the straight and arrow and just focused on just my education and being a good person.

Presenter17:05

Maggie, let's have some more music. It's your third disc today. What's next?

Maggie Alphonsi17:09

Stand By Me by Ben E. King and I've selected this disc because it reminds me of my my school period but because I kept hearing it but it also reminds me of my mother. I've been a challenging child throughout my whole entire youth in particular but she really stuck with me regardless of how difficult I became and always believed in me.

Speaker 417:30

When the night has come

Speaker 417:36

And the land is dark

Speaker 417:38

Then the moon

Speaker 417:40

It's the only

Speaker 417:42

Light will see

Speaker 417:46

No apple

Speaker 417:48

Be afraid.

Speaker 417:50

Oh I won't.

Speaker 417:52

Be afraid.

Speaker 417:54

Just along.

Speaker 417:56

As you stand

Speaker 417:58

Then bye.

Presenter18:00

Benny King and Stand By Me for your mum, Rebecca, Maggie Alfonse. So, Maggie, when you were about fourteen, you discovered the sport that you say saved you. This was thanks to one of your teachers. Who was she?

Maggie Alphonsi18:13

Yeah, her name was Lisa Burgess. She was a p teacher that was very enthusiastic and I just remember one day her walking down the corridor and I saw her, she had like black eyes and bruises and I was really intrigued by this I thought let me just ask her Miss what have you been up to over the weekend and she said that she plays a sport called rugby union.

Maggie Alphonsi18:36

And it was really fascinating because at my school rugby union was not popular. The boys did not care for rugby union. It was just football. Always football. So

Maggie Alphonsi18:46

For me to see her have, I guess, this black eye, I was like, this sport sounds really cool, miss. And she said, she's like, Maggie, do you know what? You should try the sport out. It might make you a nice person. And I listened to her. I was like, yeah, alright, miss, that's a really good point. You're to the point there. And she said, go to your local rugby club. Saracens, right? That's correct. Saracen's, the amateur ground, which is in Cott Fosters in North London. And because I didn't know the sport, the sport had its perceptions. I was really worried about going on my own. So, what were the perceptions that you had? What did you think it was going to be like?

Presenter19:17

Died.

Maggie Alphonsi19:17

It's a male-dominated sport, mainly people for middle-class, white backgrounds. Last thing you'd see would be a black girl from a very poor background taking up a sport that was perceived to be for somebody else. But when I saw her and talk about it in such a way that was really articulate but also really passionate, I was like, I will give this a go, miss. I'm going to get on that W6 bus. So I remember going to my first training session, turning up and then just seeing a bunch of women and a bunch of 16 year olds and then being like, I'm not doing this. Got on the bus and went home. That was my first training session.

Presenter19:54

That was my first training.

Maggie Alphonsi19:56

And turned around. I was like, I can't do this. And I went on my own as well. So I was really nervous about it.

Presenter20:00

What was it about them that you intimidated you?

Maggie Alphonsi20:02

It was the first time I'd seen so many strong, dominant women and girls in one space.

Maggie Alphonsi20:08

So I departed and went straight home. Very expensive getting that W six bus back then. So I was like, okay, I'm going to come back again. I'm going to do this. So I came to the next training session. I took a friend with me, my friend Elif.

Presenter20:21

From moral support.

Maggie Alphonsi20:22

For moral support. She hated it, but I didn't care. I got to go against it. Did she have to play? She just trained. She just trained. She gave it a go. Fair play to us. She wasn't very good. She was pulling me down. Anyway, I went and I trained, and I really, really enjoyed it. I felt so free. And I say that because at school, I had the big arms, I had the big legs, I didn't necessarily fit in with the other girls.

Presenter20:25

Guess yeah.

Maggie Alphonsi20:47

But then I came to rugby and they were like, wow, you've got big arms. Wow, you've got big legs. You are going to be a great rugby player. Playing other sports like netball, I always felt like I didn't have that freedom. You know, I couldn't do contact. So you were kind of holding back. Yeah, especially in netball. It's a non-contact sport, as they say, but I did not make it that I had a lot of contact. So then to go to rugby where they're like, here's a rugby ball.

Presenter21:02

So you were kind of holding back and

Maggie Alphonsi21:12

You can run as fast as you can. You can tackle as hard as you can.

Maggie Alphonsi21:17

Just go and play.

Presenter21:19

Jipping Technical.

Maggie Alphonsi21:20

Self-conscious about about your body up to that point? I had being around other girls who majority of them were quite petite, where I was just quite big and strong. And I guess I wasn't really proud of my strength and my capabilities.

Maggie Alphonsi21:35

Which now I look back and think that is crazy. People would love to have my arms. Even when I came in the studio today, the security guard was like, wow, your arms are massive. And I was like, thank you very much.

Speaker 121:40

Did they?

Maggie Alphonsi21:44

It is you know, I'm I'm now so proud of that. But when you're y you know, young and I was obviously exercising quite a lot back then, you just felt like actually I'm gonna cover up, I'm gonna cover my arms up and my legs up.

Presenter21:56

And it's different times as well, because this is a good few years ago now. And you talked about the kind of perceptions around rugby. There used to be a perception held by some that women shouldn't play it because it's not feminine. You know, it kind of compromises their femininity. What's your response to that view?

Presenter22:12

Hey, look, some people still say that now. Today

Maggie Alphonsi22:14

Is it still here?

Presenter22:14

Is he still here then?

Maggie Alphonsi22:16

Women's sport in general, unfortunately there are still a minority of people who might say, you know, women shouldn't play rugby, women shouldn't play football, good old social media, you still get those comments. But what has changed is that you get more positive stuff now. So when people say you're a great rugby player, I feel so proud as opposed to people saying you're a great woman's rug player. Actually no I was a fairly decent rug player as a whole and it was about me being amazing.

Speaker 422:27

Yeah.

Speaker 122:27

Yeah.

Presenter22:46

Alright, let's have some more music. Your fourth choice today. What's next and why are you taking it today?

Maggie Alphonsi22:51

My next disc is Woman by Andrea Triana. She talks a lot about being at school, the insecurities that you have, covering yourself up, and that's what it was like for me at school. But then she talks about being empowered, owning it, and being confident in who you are.

Maggie Alphonsi23:09

And I guess this song really symbolises, I guess, my my journey at school.

Speaker 423:13

I was insecure.

Speaker 423:15

Yes, I was frightened.

Speaker 423:18

To be myself seemed like a distant dream Lost in a crowd, I closed the cart to arms And I hit my hips and thighs in baggy jeans

Speaker 423:31

But they said love, don't fail if you try

Speaker 423:36

I knew in my heart I would succeed When times get hard and cute

Presenter23:43

Woman by Andrea Triana

Presenter23:47

So Maggie, you started playing with your local club Saracens when you were fourteen. How did you pay for the kit? How did you cover transport, everything that came with it? And what were the facilities like for women players back then? So I would start off

Maggie Alphonsi24:01

in terms of raising my funds through just doing basic jobs. The first thing I remember doing was paper rounds. Then as I got older I did other jobs working in various restaurants. Um I'm not going to mention the names, but just other restaurants which um

Presenter24:12

So fast food places.

Maggie Alphonsi24:13

Fast food places, yeah. It was hard because you needed the money, especially in rugby. Rugby most rugby grounds tend to not necessarily always be in in um populated areas, so you have to get a bus, a train, it's just quite young, kind of getting yourself

Presenter24:25

Just quite young, kind of getting yourself then these long journeys. And I'm imagining you in the winter, in the dark, and all of that. Yeah. It must have been difficult.

Maggie Alphonsi24:33

It was, but I was so driven by the idea of one day wanting to play for England, represent my country. I want to wear that rose, I guess, on my jersey. What kind of facilities did you have back then? At Saracens, in particular, I just remember that the first team men also used to train there at the time, and also the amateur men trained there. So the women and the junior side almost became kind of, you were sort of redundant. You weren't necessarily had the first choice to use the pitches. And I understand why, because back then it was all about men's sport. I'm not just talking about my club, but many other clubs. Even today, it frustrates me and angers me. But back then, you just accepted it.

Presenter25:14

Mm.

Presenter25:16

It was okay. You were playing in in old men's kits?

Maggie Alphonsi25:16

It was okay.

Presenter25:21

That's correct. Hang down. You were training on the nights of the week when even the amateurs didn't want to train. So, what did that mean for you? What does that look like?

Maggie Alphonsi25:28

Main field.

Maggie Alphonsi25:29

So just imagine a 14 year old girl who's relatively lean wearing extra extra extra large rugby jersey that has been handed me down from one of the guys. He just got on with it. I was just so happy to be there. That was part and parcel of being, I guess, in amateur sport. So we fought incredibly hard. Saracens was a brilliant club in that respect. We fought incredibly hard to get the training pitches because we used to train on the back pitch where, let's say, most people walk their dogs. And that's what you're doing. Yeah, I just remember our training sessions. Start of the training session. We'd do a dog poo search. Right, everyone just walk around, get rid of it. Right now we can start training.

Speaker 125:59

And that's what yeah.

Speaker 126:01

Training stations

Presenter26:09

So you literally had to pick the poo up off the pitch before you practiced. That was a good thing.

Maggie Alphonsi26:12

That was the warm-up.

Presenter26:14

That was that sums it up, doesn't it?

Presenter26:17

But still you set your sights on playing for England. That was the goal right from the beginning. And in two thousand three, when you were nineteen, you achieved it. You got your first chance on a tour of Canada. What did it feel like putting the jersey on for the first time?

Maggie Alphonsi26:30

It was really special. I was actually playing number 12 at the time. So, for those who don't know rugby, that's inside centre. And I scored a try on my debut, and it was amazing. I can't really talk you through it, but if I was to talk you through it, I will make up quite a lot of it because, from what I remember, I ran it all the way from our tri-line all the way to their try-line. I scored a try, and everyone just dived out of the way. That's my record. That's what I remember, I think, in my head. I don't think it was actually that. I think it was like five metres out, and I just dived over. But to be fair, after that one cap, I didn't get selected after that.

Presenter26:54

That's how it plays in.

Presenter27:04

Well, this is it. So so this incredible success and then you get back home and you're not selected for the England squad. How did you find out that you've been passed up?

Maggie Alphonsi27:16

Yeah, I remember getting a phone call from the England head coach at the time, a guy called Jeff Richards. Jeff Richards doesn't have many words. He said, you've not been selected. Thank you very much for your contribution. Just keep working hard. And that was his words. I mean, I can laugh about it now, but back then, I was broken. Then I remember getting a phone call soon after, and that same day from my academy coach, a guy called Gary Street. So this is this.

Presenter27:43

This is the second

Maggie Alphonsi27:44

Yeah.

Presenter27:44

Uh

Maggie Alphonsi27:44

Death.

Presenter27:44

Uh Yeah.

Maggie Alphonsi27:44

Same day.

Presenter27:44

So you're what sitting on the bathroom floor crying?

Maggie Alphonsi27:48

I am broken. I am broken and I do not want to receive any more phone calls. But I remember Gary Street calling me and he was the England Academy coach at the time and he said, Maggie, we've got a fixture against the USA. I know you haven't been selected for the England main squad, but because you haven't been selected doesn't mean you're a bad player. I'd love you to be in this England Academy team against the USA. So a lifeline. Yeah, he was like, just play. And I remember going back, playing the game we won, and I just felt like I could play rugby. And that's what I did. I almost took the shackles off, I took the weight off my shoulders, and I just went and enjoyed the game. And after that, I then realised my focus that I want to get back into that England squad.

Presenter27:49

Right.

Presenter27:52

Uh

Presenter28:32

Well, we'll find out what happened next in just a second. But first, I want to hear your next disc, Maggie Alphonse. It's number five. What's it gonna be? Wake Me Up by Evici.

Presenter28:42

Now, I've heard you singing this, Maggie, in the course of my research for this programme. And did I sound great? You sounded amazing.

Maggie Alphonsi28:48

Well, I was part of the BBC Children in Need choir and believe it or not, it went to number one in the UK charts, which I still can't believe.

Speaker 429:06

Feeling my way through the darkness

Speaker 429:10

Got it by beating heart

Speaker 429:14

I can't tell where the journey will end

Speaker 429:18

But I know where to start

Speaker 429:22

They tell me I'm too young to understand. They say I'm called.

Presenter29:27

Avici and Wake Me Up. Maggie Alfonci, you took a year out of the England squad then and during that time you switched position from number twelve inside centre to number seven. It's a position that you love, as we've heard. How easy was it to make the transition?

Maggie Alphonsi29:42

It wasn't easy because it's a very different position so.

Maggie Alphonsi29:48

Imagine being a really strong athletic person who can pass the ball and then being told right you now need to get into the forwards, less passing and more physical contact. So I had to really change my mindset, but I could really maximise my attributes. So that was my physical strength and I really owned that number seven jersey. How were you supporting yourself financially? It was just very much working. So I used to do various different jobs. I also was very fortunate to get some sports grants that helped me to buy sports kit. During the time I worked for the RFU, the rugby football union, I had a role there. I then later on worked for a charity called the U Sport Trust. And people, I guess, would say, do you wish at an earlier age that you were able to be professional, you know, get paid to play? Because that wasn't until 2019, was it, for women's rugby? That's correct, yeah. So it was pretty much towards the end of my career. But for me, I was fine with that because I had a nice balance to my life. I was able to develop my professional career outside of rugby. But then on the other side, I had this other job, which was being a rugby player. So it was hard balancing both, but it gave me a balance. And even now, when I see the fact that the women are getting paid and getting paid much more than what we did back then, I feel so proud that we were a small part of that progress because now it's definitely gone to a different level.

Speaker 130:57

But

Presenter31:07

Troy.

Presenter31:11

You played in the two thousand six and the twenty ten World Cups, and the team lost to New Zealand both times. Can we talk about a moment in the run up to the twenty ten tournament? I think it epitomises the difference between the men's and women's game at the time. What do you remember about it?

Maggie Alphonsi31:27

So in 2010 the World Cup was hosted at Surrey Sports Park University site and we were all based in student accommodation. I mean that's a big difference in itself. We have to go and obviously do our own laundry which is nothing wrong with that. I mean that's what I've grown up doing. But we had to go and do our own laundry in the campus launderette and I remember just taking my laundry down to the launderette and bumping into the Australian number eight. And she was getting her laundry done. I think we were going to play them on that weekend. It was the semi-final and we were playing against Australia. But that one moment summed up women's rugby at the time. You didn't have Nessu everything brought to you. It wasn't necessarily even or fair. But we all just loved our rugby and we wanted to put on a good showcase for the sport.

Presenter32:19

So Maggie, you you were frustrated in twenty ten when you weren't able to win, and I know that after that tournament you went through a bit of a crisis of confidence. What was going on at that time?

Maggie Alphonsi32:29

I basically picked up an injury. I tore my meniscus. I was out for such a long period of time. I thought I could come back without an operation. Then realised it was not progressing. And again, with the limited funds that we had, the limited support that we had, the choice of having surgery, you have to really make a big decision on it because you have the operation that may take you out of your normal job as well as rugby. But I didn't have the operation for a while. Then I did have my operation, got back, but I was out for, I think in total, 22 months, which is a long time. Yeah. Very long time, especially as you're watching your teammates progress. Other players came in, took my jersey, did incredibly well on that jersey. At the time, you think your world is coming to an end.

Presenter33:16

Did you feel like that? Did you feel mentally low?

Maggie Alphonsi33:19

I did, yeah. And I guess I would use the term depressed. You reach a point when you're injured, you just think, oh, just going to give up now, because you just don't see it progressing. And then there's a turning point. My knee felt strong. I felt confident. I started to watch rugby more again because you take yourself away from it all. You couldn't face it. Yeah. And then I was like, right, I'm getting strong. I'm coming back. And then I got that call up to come back into England squad. Played my first game since come back from injury against France at Twickenham Stadium. And I scored a try on return. And what a way to get back. And the focus was winning the World Cup. So I came back just in the nick of time to get back into that England squad.

Presenter33:36

Configuration.

Presenter33:50

Yeah.

Speaker 133:50

Uh

Presenter33:59

On that note, Maggie, I think we should have your next disc, number six. What are we going to hear?

Maggie Alphonsi34:03

You Gotta Be by Desiree

Maggie Alphonsi34:06

I used to listen to this track quite a lot after, you know, England training or coming back from camp when there'd be times when I think, oh, I hadn't performed well, I didn't step up to the mark, I just felt a little bit lacking in confidence. But you listen to that song, you listen to the words, and it just almost made you feel like, I am capable, I am good. So she would always bring me back to this point where I was like, I can do this.

Speaker 434:30

You gotta be, you gotta be bad, you gotta be bold, you gotta be wiser You gotta be hard, you gotta be tough, you gotta be stronger You gotta be cool, you gotta be calm, you gotta stay together All I know, all I know, love will save the day Herald, what your mother said Read the books your father read Tryna solve the puzzles in your own

Presenter35:01

Desiree, and you gotta be. So Maggie Alfonci, by twenty fourteen you'd come back from injury, you were part of the World Cup team and you were heading for France. You'd made up your mind that you were going to retire after the competition. What were you feeling as you went into the final against Canada?

Maggie Alphonsi35:19

I was feeling a range of emotions.

Maggie Alphonsi35:21

The night before in the England fixture you get presented your jersey. What normally happens is the players are seated in typical theatre style and the staff are standing up in front of you all and they ask you to come up to collect your jersey. You shake everyone's hand and that night they called my jersey up and I just cried and I don't cry like I am. I'm odd. But at the same time I knew I had a big job to do the next day and I needed to deliver for my teammates, for my country and for the trailblazers that had gone before us who had won a World Cup back in 1994 and we had not won it for 20 years up to that point. So I just knew that I needed to deliver the following day.

Speaker 135:44

Yeah.

Presenter36:05

There was someone else that you were playing for as well, because I know the team had been working with a sports psychologist who asked you to record a voice message, each of you, explaining why you wanted to win. What did you say?

Maggie Alphonsi36:17

Initially, I was like, oh, I want to win because I want to be really, really famous and be really, really rich. And then you had more thought around it. And I was like, I'm doing it because of my single parent mum. She has given up everything to enable me to live my life, to do the things that I want to do. And when I really thought about that, I just thought, wow, I am going to give it my all for my mum. And many other players in that team spoke about their why. What's the purpose? What's your driver? And everyone had various different whys. And I honestly say that's why we won that World Cup. We knew each other inside out. We did it for each other's whys. And we were not going to let each other down. And like you say, you won it. How did you celebrate? Lauren, I want to tell you that I went crazy. I went off the rails. But the reality was my teammates went off the rails. But I went back to the hotel. I had a cup of tea, some biscuits, custard creams in particular. And I was like, I'm done. I just thought, I want to save it every moment.

Speaker 137:15

Some big

Maggie Alphonsi37:22

I don't wanna...

Maggie Alphonsi37:24

Forget it.

Maggie Alphonsi37:25

Uh

Presenter37:25

And what about, you know, the the spoils of victory?'Cause the men who won the World Cup in two thousand three got a match fee and a generous bonus. What did you and your teammates get?

Maggie Alphonsi37:34

We didn't actually have that, but we did have an anonymous donor dedicate some money to us, which I still don't know who the person was, but we all got, I think, a total of £5,000 each. And I'm very grateful to that person. And if they are listening, I don't know who you are, thank you. Because we won that World Cup, and the automatic mindset was, oh, we will get all this sponsorship, be on the front pages of all of the various different tabloids, etc. And we were actually on the front page of most tabloids, but after a few days, it's sort of forgotten. So we didn't get the finance that I'd hoped we would get. But then after that, we were awarded the Team of the Year at the BBC Sports Personality Year Awards. And that in itself was a huge recognition of FEMA rugby players. Because I remember us going onto the stage, we all wore our dresses and we all looked different, big, small, we all various different sizes. And we were representing a sport that had never really been represented in terms of FEMA rug players on national TV. We didn't necessarily get the money, but it definitely did kick off this ability to show people that women can play rugby and can play it really well.

Presenter38:50

You didn't rest on your laurels after retirement though, Maggie, because you made a surprise announcement that you were aiming to compete in the shot put at the twenty sixteen Rio Olympics. Why?

Maggie Alphonsi39:00

Yeah, I still ask myself that question why. So I used to be a shopping thrower and I was pretty good at it. I like to think I was fairly decent and I didn't want to stop competing because you retire from sport and you still have that hunger and I gave it a go. But the problem was that I wasn't throwing as far as everyone else, which is quite a crucial thing of being in a different expert, but so that was the initial challenge.

Presenter39:23

Perspective because I think that's a good idea.

Presenter39:26

So yeah

Presenter39:27

Were you disappointed not to make it to Rio and how did you deal with it, if so?

Maggie Alphonsi39:31

Yeah, I think what I found hard was the realization that I was never going to get there. And you have to stop at some point and say, I'm not going to make it. I haven't failed. I've just I just need to reassess my goals and have a different focus.

Presenter39:46

Well, I'll find out what happened next in a minute. But first, your penultimate disc, please, Maggie Alfonsi. What have you got for us? So, my next one.

Maggie Alphonsi39:52

is World in Union by Kiri Takanawa. This song is played at every Rugby World Cup, whether it's the men's or the women's. It's about camaraderie, it's about different nations focusing on, performing, being able to represent your country, put your best foot forward and just deliver. It's such a special song for me.

Speaker 440:17

As a dream I feel so glad, so real world in union No world has won Gathering's good

Presenter40:49

Kiriti Kanawha and World in Union. So Maggie Alfonse, you joined ITV's commentating team for the twenty fifteen World Cup in England. You were the first woman to commentate on the men's game and have gone on to give your opinion during other men's championships. How did audiences react to this new chapter?

Maggie Alphonsi41:07

At the time I would say they were fairly positive and probably a little bit surprised. It's when social media really started to pick up at that period. And my biggest fear wasn't so much that I'm a woman working on this tournament. I was like, I really hope I get all these names right. I just want to make sure that I again put my best foot forward and really deliver. But it was a really positive experience and I came away going this is going to be my new life because it felt like the adrenaline was the same. You know, you go into a match, you don't want to make a mistake, you might make a knock-on, but it's okay, you've got time to rectify that. And you're watching the game and you're really part of every player's experience. But you were getting a very hard time on socials. What was happening? Good old social media. Yeah, I guess I started to do more games and then you just tend to get misogynistic comments about why you're there, the assumption that you are there for a reason to fulfil quotas. And I have screenshot a lot of my social media posts that I've had that have been quite negative. Have you? Yeah.

Presenter42:07

Have you? That's h that's interesting. Why did you decide to do that?

Maggie Alphonsi42:11

Well, I did it because most of them have really poor grammar and really poor spelling, and I like to make sure I make an example of them when I deliver a lot of my leadership talks. But I also do it because it helps me re-energise myself. And if anything, it gives me strength, because it reminds me that's why I mustn't stop.

Presenter42:27

You you mentioned the misogynistic nature of the messages, some of the messages. Was was there a racist element as well?

Maggie Alphonsi42:34

Unfortunately, yeah, so and actually that wasn't more so to do with being a pundit, but I remember during the time I wanted to become the president of the RFU, the rugby football union, but I remember I got a lot of unfortunately racist negative comments about, you know, being a woman, being a black woman, trying to become the president of the RFU. Again, I still have screenshots a lot of those comments and I don't like reading them, but again, it sort of keeps me going. I am not going to stop. Don't necessarily have the aspiration to be president anymore because my term being on the council is coming to an end. But I still think it's really important that I still show up. I'm visible and I'm not talking to those that may hate me. I'm talking to those that I hope to inspire.

Presenter43:21

You've taken on lots of different roles, lots of new roles since retirement, Maggie. The most significant though might be becoming a parent. Started a family with your wife, Marcella. Two young children and another baby on the way. Would you like them to play rugby when they're old enough?

Maggie Alphonsi43:38

I really, really, really hope so. If you ask them, they would be like, absolutely not. So my children, I've got one boy, one girl, and I would love for my kids to go down to the rugby club and be part of that community because the rugby community is a special community and we create this rugby family. And that... just says a lot about how far the game has come. You know, it's considered to be a sport for both men and women. I really hope that they do get into rugby and I hope they both find the special journey that I had that really did change my life for the good.

Presenter44:15

Maggie, it's almost time to cast you away. How do you think you'll cope?

Maggie Alphonsi44:20

I'm not great with spiders. That's the thing I hate the most.

Presenter44:23

Okay, so the creepy crawlies might be an issue.

Maggie Alphonsi44:25

Being on the island on my own, um, with spiders would be a a big issue. But, uh, I think that I could cope. I I'm quite good on my own. I can look after myself, yeah.

Presenter44:36

Brilliant, you're gonna be fine. We'll give you one more track, of course, before we cast you away. Your final choice today, Maggie Alphonse. What's it gonna be?

Maggie Alphonsi44:44

Coming Out by Diana Ross. We played it when we got married, me and my wife, Marcella Collins, and it was our first dance. And the reason why I love this track is because it was the one moment for both of us, and myself in particular, to go, I'm coming out. Like, this is who I am. Yes, I'm in a same-sex relationship. Yes, I'm a parent. Yes, I am an amazing rugby player. It was just all of it. We had a really good band. They started playing I'm Coming Out. My wife was dancing on the dance floor, and I was still in the toilet. I was like, wait, I am literally coming out. Wait for me. I'm coming. Don't start yet. But it's a song that's really resonated with me and throughout my life. And it was a really special track to be able to play as our first dance. And how did you and Marcella meet? We both played at Saracens. And even now, when I think that I have moments where I might be feeling quite low, lack my confidence, I turn to her. She is an absolute rock. And I know she'll be listening. And I want her to know that I am everything that I am today because of her. She's so driven. And I know our kids, they're very lucky. They've got two amazing mums, and I know they'll continue to do well because of what we've both achieved.

Speaker 145:17

Coming out.

Speaker 445:54

There's a new me coming out, and I just have to live. And I wanna get, I'm completely positive. I think this time around, I am gonna do it like you never knew it. Oh, I'll make it through.

Speaker 446:12

The time has come for me to break out of chair.

Speaker 446:17

I have the shot that I

Speaker 446:21

I'm coming up.

Presenter46:24

Diana Ross and I'm coming out. So Maggie Alfonse, it's time to cast you away to the island. I'm going to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to take with you. And of course, you can have one other book. What will you choose?

Maggie Alphonsi46:35

The Soul of a Butterfly. It's the autobiography of Muhammad Ali. I remember reading it during the lead up to the 2014 Women's Rugby World Cup and I just loved it. It's a book that has been written in a way that's through the eyes of his daughter Hannah and after and before every chapter there was a quote and the quotes always just kind of kept me motivated and I think I'm going to need that on the island.

Presenter47:04

Uh

Maggie Alphonsi47:04

Yeah.

Presenter47:04

Oh dude.

Maggie Alphonsi47:04

Definitely. It'll keep you going. What about a luxury item? What would you like?

Maggie Alphonsi47:08

I thought really long and hard about this, and I was thinking maybe a spider catcher. I mean, and I just then came to the obvious thing that I'm going to have a picture of my family. So, my immediate family, obviously, my wife, my two children, obviously got one child on the way, so the bump, and then my dog, Nala, and obviously my mother.

Presenter47:28

Of course, it's yours. And finally, which one track of the eight that we've heard today would you rush to save from the waves first if you needed to?

Presenter47:36

Yeah.

Maggie Alphonsi47:36

So that was r

Presenter47:36

R.

Maggie Alphonsi47:36

Really hard one because all of them are incredibly good, but it had to be the first track, Fast Car, Tracy Chapman. The words are really symbolic to the beginning of my life and I would definitely keep that.

Presenter47:50

My girlfonse, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Maggie Alphonsi47:54

Thank you.

Presenter48:09

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Maggie. He is hoping there are no spiders on the island, but.

Presenter48:14

Can't promise. We've cast away many sportswomen including Jill Scott, Jessica Ennis Hill and Nicola Adams. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, the executive production coordinator was Susie Roylance, the content editor was Mugavi Turia and the producer was Paula McGinley.

Speaker 148:47

Hi guys, this is Rylan, and I'm here to tell you about how to be in love from BBC Sounds. Now, as a single divorcee, I feel ready to find love again, but I want to see if there's a better way of going about it. In this series, I'm going to sit down with 12 incredible guests who are really going to help me rediscover what love truly means and how I can find it again. People like Stephen Fry, Louis Thoreau, Matt and Emma Willis, and many more. So, join me on this journey as I explore how to be in love. Listen on BBC Sounds.