Ash Atalla

Speaker 20:01

BBC Sounds

Presenter0:02

Music Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:51

My castaway this week is the television producer Ash Attala. His first hit was The Office, starring Ricky Gervais. He followed it up with the IT crowd, People Just Do Nothing, Big Boys and Staff Let's Flats. His hall of awards from these programmes includes six BAFTAs, four RTS awards, a Golden Globe and an Emmy. He started out in an office of his own as a stockbroker but found words more fun than numbers, so packed in that job and became an intern at the BBC. He eventually joined the comedy department where he began to pick, polish and push projects, almost crying with relief that he'd found his calling.

Presenter1:28

His childhood wasn't without its challenges. He was born in Cairo in 1972 and contracted polio as a baby. The disease left him unable to walk and his parents made the decision to relocate to the UK in search of better opportunities for him. He says, I've always been worried about being invisible. It's GCSE psychology to say the guy in the wheelchair wants to make sure he's noisy enough that people take notice. Working in comedy is one way of making sure you're invited to the party.

Presenter1:56

Ashatella, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Ash Atalla1:58

Thanks for having me.

Presenter1:59

So there are a lot of different elements to your job. You can be actually working on a script, you can be trying to get something commissioned and get it on air, but obviously you've also got to wade through a pile of scripts to find the next big thing. What are you actually looking for? And how do you know when you've found it?

Ash Atalla2:16

This is a cliche, but you don't know what you're looking for. But what I do know is when I found it, I'm quite instinctive. Yeah, I think when I know, I know. I can be like maniacally sure about a show.

Presenter2:28

But that must be absolutely critical to what you do because you've often got to go in and have the argument with with some you know a broadcaster for example who doesn't want to commission the show.

Ash Atalla2:35

Yeah, that's exactly the right way of putting it. And the thing that exhausts me about my job is it is endlessly competitive. I feel like I'm in just different levels of 3D chess fights. What I find difficult is trying to persuade somebody when I'm sure. I'm not always sure, and you can't be sure all the time. But when I feel it, I feel it, and I can't believe somebody else can't see it. And that's where I have to take a breath and go, This isn't an argument, this is a process of persuasion and trying to make that feel safe in their hands as well.

Presenter3:08

And eventually they will agree that I'm right.

Ash Atalla3:10

Laurent they must.

Presenter3:12

So how do you get on watching comedy made by other people then?

Ash Atalla3:16

I can't watch comedy. Not at all. No, I can't watch it. I can't relax watching it. If I watch comedy that's good, I'm annoyed.

Presenter3:18

Yeah.

Presenter3:24

Back.

Ash Atalla3:24

If I haven't made it and if I watch comedy that's bad, I'm annoyed.

Presenter3:28

It's even worse.

Ash Atalla3:28

Somebody else got to make it, and it's bad. And so it never gives me peace. It's a proper busman's holiday.

Presenter3:36

Production's interesting, isn't it? Because it's somewhat of a hidden role for people. It's a bit of a dark art, you know, people don't know how it works. How does it feel to you to be in the spotlight as you are today?

Ash Atalla3:48

I'd be lying if I said to you I was shy, and in my job, I have to work with a lot of egos. And in a sense, one way that I've learnt to fight that or deal with it, shall we say, is to have an ego of my own in a manner. And I think otherwise you get crushed by people. And I think sometimes, if people don't feel that you have a strength yourself, they will be all over you. And it's really important to me that I'm seen as an equal.

Speaker 24:04

Yeah.

Ash Atalla4:19

See?

Presenter4:19

See, you've got to go in there and be quite bullish, quite tough. Yeah.

Ash Atalla4:22

And not be overly subservient. I think that's the key as well. And sometimes people go, You're a producer, just order the biscuits and get me a cab and I'll do my thing. They don't say that.

Speaker 34:31

Yeah.

Presenter4:31

Uh

Ash Atalla4:33

But there's a sense that can be that vibe.

Presenter4:33

But there's a sense of vibe.

Presenter4:36

So how do you how do you deal with that then?

Ash Atalla4:38

Well, Alex Ferguson, the Man United manager, famous Man United manager, said I'm as important as the most important player that I have and I try to do that in my head. It doesn't always work, but I feel that you have to come to the table as an equal. And it means that sometimes you upset people. So much of our businesses sort of keep the talent happy, but I'm not sure that that's the right thing to do.

Presenter5:07

Listen, I mentioned your awards. Some people are a bit cagey about all that business and play them down, but I know that you're you're pretty proud of your awards, Hall.

Ash Atalla5:16

Look, I could tell you that awards are meaningless, that they're vain, that they're arbitrary and all of that. And I do think all of that, but I can also tell you that they're important to me. And they don't leave you when times get hard. And I like their permanence. They've brought me peace. They've brought me a calm in an industry that is quite up and down where you think, God, will I ever do anything good again?

Ash Atalla5:42

You kind of look at the award shelf and you go, There, my friend.

Presenter5:46

And where is the award shelf?

Ash Atalla5:47

I have an office at home and um I've put them all on there. Sometimes if I'm having a bad Zoom at home and somebody's being difficult, I'll accidentally turn the camera around.

Ash Atalla5:59

And

Presenter5:59

It is a wall of baffles.

Ash Atalla6:00

They'll just get a glimpse of some baftas, and I go, oh, sorry, I don't know how to work this thing.

Presenter6:01

Yeah.

Presenter6:01

Some baptism I go

Ash Atalla6:05

So yeah, I'm I'd be lying if I didn't say I wasn't proud of him,'cause I am.

Presenter6:10

It's time for your first disc, Ash. What have you chosen?

Ash Atalla6:13

I've always loved Wham. This is one of their less poppy songs and surprisingly visceral lyrics. You'll hear a man who paints a vivid picture of being in a relationship where nothing is good enough. And I don't have that specificity, but I feel like I have quite a pressurized life. And there's something about the breaking point at times that you feel that really speaks to me from this song. So this is Wham, everything she wants.

Speaker 36:41

Somebody told me

Speaker 36:45

For everything she wants, and everything she sees I guess I must have loved you.

Speaker 36:54

I said to where the go for me

Speaker 36:59

Six months older

Speaker 37:02

Everything you want and everything you see here is out of reach.

Presenter7:11

Wham and everything she wants. Ash Atal, you were born in Cairo in June 1972. Your full name's Ashraf, you're the eldest of three, and your parents, Albert and Adele, were both doctors. Your dad, a gynecologist and obstetrician, your mum a pediatrician. How did they meet?

Ash Atalla7:27

They met at medical school in Cairo. Mum was an uptown girl, came from a big family, relatively wealthy.

Presenter7:35

Very glamorous. I've seen photos of your mum.

Ash Atalla7:37

She really does have movie star looks, didn't she? She still does, very much so. And my dad had a difficult childhood. He was orphaned and I think had to really fight his way to medical school. And I love that their past there were so different. And I can just sort of picture them in that kind of class. Dad's wildly charismatic, a joker. I owe my career to him. His words, not mine.

Ash Atalla8:03

And mum a bit more relaxed, a bit more elegant, and I just thought the two of them

Ash Atalla8:12

Together The Chancer and the Swan.

Presenter8:14

So you were very little when you got polio, six months old, I think. What did your parents tell you about how they were told what happened?

Ash Atalla8:23

The story's insane and I've only got to fill in the detail of it in later life. They married, they had me. Dad was coming to England to finish his medical exams. And so when he left, I think I was about two months old and I was not ill. And he hadn't been in England that long when I contracted polio.

Ash Atalla8:46

And I think I got polar pretty hard. I was in hospital and

Ash Atalla8:52

essentially expected to die. In fact, they sent me home

Speaker 28:54

Basically

Ash Atalla8:56

to die with an oxygen tank bit of a downer and so

Speaker 28:56

Top.

Presenter8:56

With a

Ash Atalla9:00

Mum brought me home. Dad was in England.

Presenter9:04

And she couldn't call him or anything?

Ash Atalla9:06

She didn't call him. I mean, obviously communications were different then.

Ash Atalla9:12

But they chose to not tell him, which is something I only found out recently. Why do you think?

Ash Atalla9:18

She said she didn't want to disrupt his studies.

Ash Atalla9:23

I know that she would have made that decision for all the right reasons. She was also a doctor herself. She had four older brothers who were all doctors. And so I was having very good medical care. But I think the expectation was that I wasn't going to live. I mean, I said to mum, so what were you just going to tell dad that I had died? And I think that was her plan.

Ash Atalla9:48

And they didn't really tell him for a year until

Ash Atalla9:53

Yeah. I know. So what happened was mum did eventually say to dad.

Presenter9:53

But yeah.

Ash Atalla9:58

Bit of news for you, there's been a mishap with Ash. Very bad polio. Now will be confined to a wheelchair and it and in a sense they didn't even know how strong or weak it had got into my lungs and they just didn't know how once polio leaves you, you get what you're given and I can't really even begin to understand what a shock it was to mum.

Ash Atalla10:20

Because it's such a record scratch to happen in your life. It's so sudden and so brutal. And just obviously not the life that they had planned. Anyway, Dad Dad then said, Let's bring you and him to Britain, which feels like a perhaps better place to bring up somebody who is in a wheelchair.

Presenter10:40

Ash, it's time for your second piece of music. What are we going to hear next?

Ash Atalla10:45

This is a song called Inter Omri by Oma Kalthum, and she's the Frank Sinatra or the Nina Simone of Egypt, hugely well known. And mum and dad used to play this a lot when I was a child, and I used to hate it actually. Why?

Ash Atalla11:01

It sounded a bit boring, it sounded very otherworldly, and it wasn't Madonna, or it wasn't anything that I'd heard of, and it wasn't British. And it was almost embarrassing, and it felt like this is your music, mum and dad. You play it on your time. And as I've got older, I've reconnected a bit with the Egyptian side of me. I feel very British, but there's this sort of DNA in me that understands the Arabic mentality. But I play this song for mum and dad, and I play it to acknowledge their sacrifice.

Speaker 311:43

Oil mahab minzeman oil avision washan

Presenter12:02

Um kultum and enter Umri. You are my life.

Presenter12:06

Ashitala, as you mentioned, when you were about two years old, your parents left Egypt and your dad got a job in Belfast. So when you think back to that time, what comes to mind?

Ash Atalla12:16

Very happy times.

Ash Atalla12:18

Very, very good people.

Ash Atalla12:21

funny people nor the people from Northern Ireland are really they're a real laugh and the warmth and I think there was a lot in common with like an Arab um mentality you know feeding people joking around there was a real lightness dad was

Presenter12:23

Can we

Speaker 212:23

Yeah.

Ash Atalla12:37

I mean he uses this phrase because he was a brown doctor, he wasn't going to get the pick of the jobs, and he answered an advert for a job in Belfast. He didn't know that there was a war on in Northern Ireland. I mean he really didn't know. And he him and mum were telling me that when the plane landed they saw loads of military around the

Ash Atalla13:00

I was scared to dad said to Mum, I wonder if we've made a mistake.

Ash Atalla13:04

And I just said to Dad, Did you not? You know, the Northern Ireland troubles. He said, We didn't really look into it and we didn't really have a choice.

Presenter13:12

You've described your childhood as being full of love and laughter, but you've also talked about the very real sense that your your dad had to prepare you for

Presenter13:23

The challenges that life was going to involve for you. Tell me a bit more about that.

Ash Atalla13:28

Yeah, I think when it became clear what what the extent of the disability was, then really dad was very quick into preparing me for adult life, you know, even as a four or five year old. You know, my life was sort of a rocky montage of getting ready for being an adult. And there was a strong sense from dad that nobody was gonna come and help me and that that had to be me helping myself.

Ash Atalla13:56

And

Presenter13:56

And how was that for you?

Ash Atalla13:58

It was never arduous, and it was never without love.

Ash Atalla14:01

But I really understood it myself. I had a very strong sense that life was going to be difficult or could be difficult. And I think a combination of dad's immigrant mentality plus my wheelchair equals must try harder.

Presenter14:20

Right, what a work ethic.

Ash Atalla14:21

Yeah.

Presenter14:22

There's a lot there, isn't there?

Ash Atalla14:23

Oh my god.

Presenter14:23

It's got to keep it going for a while.

Ash Atalla14:25

Yeah, it really was. And so, yeah, it was like I was gonna have to be work harder. You know, you didn't I only realize it now, but what a sacrifice they made. You know, they didn't even speak great English. And I thought if that's what they've done for me, then there's a lot that I need to do for myself, like make my life a happy one so that they didn't feel

Speaker 214:44

So that

Ash Atalla14:46

that they had put me in a bad position, and I suspect that's a bit of where the drive has come from. So I wanted to make everything okay for all of us, myself, of course, but also for them.

Presenter15:00

You were sent to a school for kids with disabilities in South Belfast. How did you get on there?

Ash Atalla15:07

Um I needed physiotherapy when I was younger and they had all that infrastructure there. And I had this tiny little red wheelchair and curly hair and an Irish accent.

Presenter15:18

Oh, you sound adorable.

Ash Atalla15:20

I think I look like a toy.

Ash Atalla15:22

I was f fine with it. I didn't really have an awareness that that that school was any different. And so those initial years in Belfast were very happy ones.

Presenter15:34

So your parents went on to have two more children, your sister Angela and your brother Andrew. So everyone in your family has a name beginning with A?

Ash Atalla15:41

Yeah, my dad I told you my dad was funny, and he thinks this was he he's really proud of of the fact that we're all AAs. I said, Well, other letters are available, Dad.

Presenter15:51

What kind of brother were you?

Ash Atalla15:53

I was the eldest and so there was quite a big gap. I think mum and dad had a lot to work through with me, if that makes sense.

Speaker 315:59

Yeah.

Speaker 316:00

Smeakh.

Ash Atalla16:01

And so I think the age gap is eight years to my sister and then another four to my brother. When I look back I wonder or slightly worry if I sort of suck the oxygen a little bit out of the family.

Presenter16:15

In what way? Because you needed you needed extra looking after.

Ash Atalla16:18

Yeah, I think my mum and dad maybe bent the whole family round to what worked well for me.

Ash Atalla16:24

And so I think I wonder if my brother and sister sort of felt that marginalised a little bit.

Presenter16:30

Have you ever talked to them about it?

Ash Atalla16:32

Why would I do that, Lauren? Why would I ever have

Presenter16:35

Let's do it here. Let's have the conversation here.

Ash Atalla16:36

Only on the radio. Why would I have a meaningful, deep conversation? A little bit with my brother. I think he bore the brunt of it as

Presenter16:42

I think

Presenter16:45

And the two of you are still pretty close.

Ash Atalla16:46

Yeah, we are. We are. I think he was always encouraged to move to be near me, to finish university in Manchester and quickly move to London to be near me. So I think he probably got it a little bit.

Presenter17:00

Does he still live near you now?

Ash Atalla17:01

But you know what, we live in the same building.

Ash Atalla17:04

My God, it continues to this day. I think that was his choice. I don't ask him for physical help anymore, but there is something really lovely about living in the same postcode as a family member.

Presenter17:18

We've got to make room for some more music, I think. So, disc number three, what are we going to hear?

Ash Atalla17:22

Shakedown and the songs called At Night.

Ash Atalla17:25

I love going out.

Ash Atalla17:26

Too much.

Ash Atalla17:28

I'm not a man who knows when the last drink is. I'm not a man who likes to leave a room if there's fun to be had. And so when I started going out, I loved

Ash Atalla17:40

The glamour, the late nights, the velvet ropes, and all of that. And this song, I could have chosen lots of going-out tunes, but this song.

Ash Atalla17:48

Reminds me of my good friends, it reminds me of Ibiza, it reminds me of all the fun stuff that happens after midnight.

Speaker 317:57

Seems I can't deny

Speaker 318:00

Some days just don't feel right. I think I'm feeling much better.

Speaker 318:13

Cause I can't deny it.

Speaker 318:16

Some days just don't feel right. I think I feel like I'm fine.

Presenter18:26

At night, shakedown. Ashitala, when you were 10, the family relocated to Hampshire, and there your dad got a job with the Royal Army Medical Corps. You were sent to board at Lord Mayor Trillaw College, which was a school for kids with disabilities. And that was a less happy experience for you, I think. Tell me what happened.

Ash Atalla18:47

Yeah, huge amount of physiotherapy, all the backup and the infrastructure that you needed. But the more I was there, the less I wanted that.

Ash Atalla18:57

paraphernalia around me.

Presenter18:58

Mm-hmm.

Presenter18:59

The school had a specialist haemophilia centre on site and many of the pupils who were receiving treatment there ended up being affected by the contaminated blood scandal and have subsequently died. Were those boys your friends?

Ash Atalla19:12

Yeah, listen, it was the beginning of the AIDS pandemic and a guy, Chris, who I shared a bedroom with, died of it. And by the time I was about thirteen or fourteen, I think I'd been to like seven or eight funerals of kids that were at my school. Um so that was um tough and it that school's very much in the in the headlines at the moment.

Ash Atalla19:33

In a more general way, I decided that that school

Ash Atalla19:39

was a poor preparation for real life.

Presenter19:42

I think there was a turning point on a school trip.

Ash Atalla19:45

Yeah, it was Phantom of the Opera.

Ash Atalla19:47

The school arranged for us all to come to the west end of London and the coach came from the boarding school up to Shaftesbury Avenue and I think there were about twenty five of us in wheelchairs on the coach.

Ash Atalla19:59

And there was one lift at the back.

Ash Atalla20:02

And it took about two hours. Up and down the lift went. And I remember when we went into the theater, into the it felt we were very conspicuous. I felt really self-conscious that we had come en masse and you could see other people looking at us going, what has descended upon us? And I just thought, this is real life. And going around with an army of other disabled people doesn't make it all right for any of us. And so I started to resent what the school was doing for me. There was another angle to it, which was girls. I really worried that I'd never have a girlfriend. I used to think most people aren't in wheelchairs, so why would any girl choose somebody who was? And next to the school was another school, and it was a normal school. And I'm using that word normal.

Presenter21:02

You do now quotes with your finger.

Ash Atalla21:05

I'm using the word deliberately because that was the language of the time and it's really important that people know that and I know it's not progressive, but we were special.

Presenter21:10

And I know

Speaker 221:11

Uh

Ash Atalla21:14

and disabled and they were normal. And the kids from the local six one college used to come and volunteer to help at our school. There was a girl called Karen who I got on with really well.

Ash Atalla21:25

I think I've sort of clumsily, when I was about fourteen or thirteen, asked her if she'd be my girlfriend. I remember that she laughed, not a cruel laugh, but a laugh of like obviously not.

Presenter21:38

Oh, crushing for you.

Ash Atalla21:40

It might not have been the wheelchair, it might have been, you know, we do have my personality to consider here.

Ash Atalla21:46

But I I remember thinking, yeah, that makes sense actually, why would she? And

Ash Atalla21:54

I remember feeling

Ash Atalla21:55

Sorry.

Presenter21:56

That's alright, till you time.

Ash Atalla21:58

I just remember thinking, I've got to get out of here.

Ash Atalla22:01

I go back to dad's psychology in that moment.

Ash Atalla22:05

This isn't helping. In a sense, I need to feel not closeted. I need to see how it's going to be difficult so I can figure out how to fix it.

Presenter22:15

And how did your parents react when you told them how you were feeling?

Ash Atalla22:17

Incredibly.

Ash Atalla22:19

I I never blamed him for it'cause it was a decision taken with heart at the time. But yeah, dad was like, Sure, let's call up the local Six One College. And um I went to a place called Farmba, Six One College. And if there's anyone there listening and you're wondering why there's so many ramps

Ash Atalla22:35

Around, they were all put in for me.

Presenter22:37

'Cause were you the first disabled kid to go on?

Ash Atalla22:39

The first, the first ever person in a wheelchair to go to pharmaceutical college. It was the first time I'd ever been around non-disabled kids.

Presenter22:46

And how was it?

Ash Atalla22:48

I loved it.

Ash Atalla22:49

People were good to me. They helped me when I needed help and they didn't patronize me and and I got on with it. But um other than other than I couldn't get a girlfriend, it was a great experience.

Presenter23:00

Ash, I think we should have some more music at this point. Number four, what's it gonna be and why are you taking this one to the island with you?

Ash Atalla23:06

Well, speaking of no girlfriends.

Ash Atalla23:09

I've got a real sense of drama in me and a bit of um if something goes wrong love life wise, I'm a bit long dark coat on a windy beach, rain, walks in the park alone and so

Ash Atalla23:23

This is a brilliant love song by Phil Collins. I thought, can I choose Phil Collins and Wham? And I think we're about to hear the answer to that. What self-pity? What a tune. Phil Collins Against All Odds.

Speaker 323:35

How can I just let you walk away Just let you leave without a trace?

Speaker 323:43

When I stand here taking every breath

Speaker 323:47

With you.

Speaker 323:51

You're the only one who really knew me

Speaker 324:00

How can you just walk away from me?

Speaker 324:03

When all of us

Presenter24:06

Against all odds, Phil Collins.

Presenter24:09

Ashatella, you studied business administration at the University of Bath, and then you got a job as a stockbroker for an investment bank. Why did you want a job in finance?

Ash Atalla24:19

To make the wheelchair disappear, really, to make life more palatable, to be more comfortable, all I wanted to do was to sort of.

Ash Atalla24:28

take the pain away is is too dramatic, but what I've told you I'm dramatic. You know, with resource I'm able to make myself feel less disabled. And following that career as a stockbroker was all about that. And it looked glamorous on T V. Mostly men on telephones shouting.

Ash Atalla24:49

I can shout and I'm sitting down and I could really see myself doing it. But when I finally got a job as a stockbroker, I had forgotten one really important thing, which is I'm not very good at math.

Presenter24:49

And

Ash Atalla25:03

I'm really not.

Presenter25:05

How bad? How bad are we talking? What happened?

Ash Atalla25:07

I mean, I'm below average. The time that I made the bank the most amount of money, and this is true, was when I had got a trade the wrong way round, but by accident it ended up going well.

Speaker 325:17

What was it, dear?

Ash Atalla25:18

Well, I had to buy dollars and sell pounds, but I bought pounds and sold dollars. I just got, or if I got it the wrong way around, I can't even say it correctly. And so they said to me, you did the opposite of the instruction for the trade that we gave you. However, you did make us money. However, however, we are going to have to let you go.

Ash Atalla25:38

In a way, I think I resigned first, but

Presenter25:40

How yeah, how did you feel about it?

Ash Atalla25:43

I knew that it was the right thing. I think telling my family was a real moment because we had put in so much work into that career and I didn't really have a Plan B at that point. And um I sort of felt a midlife crisis coming at twenty four.

Presenter26:01

How did your family react?

Ash Atalla26:03

Dad was worried. Mum and Dad were worried.

Presenter26:05

Do you remember waking up the next day and thinking, Okay, what what now?

Ash Atalla26:08

Yeah, I really do. I really do. I was living in Hammersmith at the time. It was in rented accommodation and all my friends' careers were, you know, starting to move and I felt that I'd come to this shuddering full stop quite early. And I didn't know

Ash Atalla26:26

what to do. I started writing letters to the BBC. I didn't really know who to write to. Somebody gave me somebody's number, a guy called Mark Thompson, who ended up being the D G. But yeah, I used to write to the BBC.

Presenter26:38

Used to write to the beach.

Ash Atalla26:40

He ended up running the place. I used to write to him and just introduce myself and I used to say I'd love to come and work in television, but I didn't really know what the jobs were. I didn't quite know where that had come from. But when I started to feel it, I became convinced that that was the thing.

Presenter27:00

It's time for the music, disc number five, What's It Gonna Be and Why?

Ash Atalla27:04

When I was at school.

Ash Atalla27:06

At my disabled school, Lord Metro Law College, somebody from the school lived on the same street as Paul Weller.

Ash Atalla27:14

One day in assembly, the headmaster said to us, Next month, the Style Council are going to be coming to play a gig at our school. And I used to love the Style Council. And Paul Weller, he came for lunch in a canteen, and he actually sat at my table. We had gammon. It was always gammon at gammon and eggs at the school. And what made it even weirder is it was an afternoon gig. It wasn't even the evening. And at 2pm, the Style Council, the sort of our school hall was full with, I don't know, like 250 people in wheelchairs, everyone on crutches, calipers, false limbs, the whole lot. And out onto the stage came the Style Council. And I remember it, and I'll never forget it. And this is my ever-changing mood, which is my favourite song of theirs.

Presenter27:59

I'm just imagining them playing a gig full of gammon and eggs.

Ash Atalla28:03

They were full of gammon and eggs.

Presenter28:05

A pre-show writer.

Ash Atalla28:07

What a what an incongruous scene. It was all so unlikely. But do you know when some people say, Oh, it it seemed fine at the time? It didn't. It was weird on the day.

Speaker 328:18

From the day.

Presenter28:19

Was wet that?

Speaker 328:19

It was not that.

Ash Atalla28:19

It was mad then and it's weirder now on Radio 4.

Speaker 328:22

When I turns to moonlight

Speaker 328:26

Not my best day

Speaker 328:30

Brazzing away it all was

Speaker 328:33

Then gazing upon the rest Yeah, the coobe ball the wall They come off the storm of the coo before the wall They come off the storm I wish to stay forever

Speaker 328:48

That's it, let's be my food. Oh, but I'm

Presenter28:52

Uh

Presenter28:52

The Style Council and my ever-changing moods. So, Ashatella, how did you manage to make the leap into television?

Ash Atalla29:00

I just called the BBC every day until they said yes, and there's a truth to that. I eventually got some work experience. When I got to the BBC, I knew I loved it, like, really loved it.

Presenter29:09

Just like the atmosphere and the the people and

Ash Atalla29:11

Like-minded people, I loved the atmosphere, I loved the vibe, I loved going around and seeing rooms that had the shows written on them. Because I hadn't even realized that to make a television show, people have to sit in a room, and all the shows that you see have these big teams behind them. Which is funny enough, what I've ended up now doing is to see, oh, look, there's a door there that says Top Gear. So, Jane McClarkson's here. And so, I eventually got a job working on a show called Mysteries with Carol Voldeman. And I wasn't very good at that, but my boss at the time, a lady called Claire Pisi, said to me, You're quite funny.

Ash Atalla29:53

You're quite a liability as a researcher. You're the only researcher on the show that needs his own researcher to do the actual researching.

Ash Atalla30:02

But I'm going to call the comedy department at the BBC. And when I got a job at the comedy department, then the door said The Far Show, goodness gracious me, French and Saunders, and then

Ash Atalla30:16

I got given some scripts to read and unasked I just got a pen out and started editing some material and um I thought I'm home, I'm here.

Presenter30:26

And you could just do it straight away. You felt confident to do it and your suggestions were good that other people could see that.

Ash Atalla30:33

I worry that I was a little bit um precocious. I think I probably overplayed my hand a little bit at the beginning. Sounds like me, for sure. And I remember thinking it's okay to be good at this because

Ash Atalla30:46

You've not been good at quite a lot of other things, and so it's all right.

Presenter30:50

And that moment of relief, you know, do you remember that? Do you remember realizing this is my thing, that feeling of rightness?

Ash Atalla30:58

Yeah, so much. So, so much.

Presenter30:59

You're exhaling as you say that, you know.

Ash Atalla31:01

Yeah, it's true.

Presenter31:02

Still breathing out now.

Ash Atalla31:03

I still feel relieved. I really do because I think

Ash Atalla31:06

I just felt I can't explain it. I just felt this enormous sense of um I'm trying not to use the word belonging. I did feel a sense of belonging. And I just thought I can never let this go. I mustn't mess this one up.

Presenter31:19

So then along comes a young BBC trainee called Stephen Merchant. What were your first impressions?

Ash Atalla31:26

We were just two young kids and as his leaving project from his trainee scheme, he had a film to make and he had a friend called Gervais, Ricky Gervais, who was I think doing some DJing on XFM. Stephen said to me, I've got this thing, I've filmed this thing with Ricky Gervais, would you ever look at it? And I did, it was called CD Boss.

Presenter31:48

What did you think of the idea?

Ash Atalla31:50

It was so raw, it was so unformed, and I felt an evangelical belief in it. What you were watching were two things. One, a detailed exploration of mundanity, and a show that wasn't something that wasn't afraid to take time and wallow in nothingness, I would say.

Ash Atalla32:11

And so I loved how brave that that felt.

Presenter32:14

Tricky to pitch though, I should have told you.

Ash Atalla32:15

Really hard to pitch. Really hard to pitch.

Presenter32:16

How did you go about selling it to people?

Ash Atalla32:19

There's nothing about the office that lends itself to an exciting pitch. I eventually got in front of the big BBC boss and it was every inch of the movie scenes that you see when somebody pitches something. It was a big oak table on the sixth floor of Television Center. Me on one side and a couple of other people from the BBC Comedy Department. On the other side, the suits.

Ash Atalla32:41

And it was that Hollywood what have you got for us today? And I said, I've got something set in the world of work.

Ash Atalla32:48

And they said, What's it called? and I said, It's called the office. And you could see their heart sinking and they said, What happens in it? I said, Not much happens.

Ash Atalla32:57

But that is the point.

Ash Atalla32:59

They said, Who's in it? I said, Is nobody you've heard of. We had by then made a pilot, our own pilot.

Ash Atalla33:05

And I played them that and the big boss turned to the second big boss and said, What do you think? and there was a a pause that I will never forget and he went

Ash Atalla33:15

I think this is great.

Ash Atalla33:17

And she looked at me, Jane Root, she was called, and she said I think it's great too and they commissioned the series and in that moment I guess in that moment my life changed. I just didn't know it then.

Presenter33:27

On that note, Ashatella, I think we'd better have some music.

Ash Atalla33:31

Well, I tried hard to not pick this song because only a lunatic would pick the theme tune from their own show.

Ash Atalla33:38

But here it is. I didn't know what an impact it was going to have on my life in that moment. I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you about my silly life if it wasn't for this show. Um and this is Handbags and Glad Rags by Rod Stewart.

Speaker 333:58

Ever seen a blind man cross the road?

Speaker 334:02

Tryna make the other side

Speaker 334:10

Ever seen a young girl growing old?

Speaker 334:14

Tryna make herself

Presenter34:23

Handbags and Gladrags. Rod Stewart. Ashatella, I don't need to tell you what happened next. The office became a smash hit. You were suddenly winning awards. You were at the top of British comedy. How did it feel to be in the limelight?

Ash Atalla34:36

Life did change, for sure. I found myself um getting my calls returned. I was suddenly allowed behind the red velvet rope, and I finally got a girlfriend. As my brother would say, what attracted you to the multi bafta winning producer of the office?

Presenter34:55

Did it make a difference though, seriously? What was that about? Do you think maybe it was your confidence as well?

Ash Atalla34:59

Yeah. Do you know what it was? I think it was finally I got to I was always worried about being Ash, the bloke in the wheelchair, and in that moment I was Ash, the bloke who did the office.

Presenter35:09

The show also featured a character called Brenda, played by Julie Fernandez, who used a wheelchair. I wonder whether any of your experiences fed into the situations that she faced in the show.

Ash Atalla35:19

Yeah, I think I was with Ricky in a pub and he saw somebody people if they can't get past me, they used to just pull the wheelchair.

Ash Atalla35:29

Ricky couldn't believe it. Ste Stephen as well. The scene where we do on the stairs, where we Brenda can't get out because of the.

Ash Atalla35:37

Helping me up and down steps is a constant thing in my life, and often people start to do it, and then you get to the landing and they go.

Ash Atalla35:46

Oh, it is a lot.

Ash Atalla35:48

Do we have to go? Well yeah, you can't leave me here. It's halfway.

Presenter35:51

And they're in in the show it's a fire drill, I think. Yeah.

Ash Atalla35:51

And now

Ash Atalla35:53

Yeah, and so they get halfway and I think that's sort of something I see people going, we wish we hadn't offered to help Ash down the steps because it's harder than we thought.

Presenter36:02

Talking of Ricky, when when the office started winning awards, he did make jokes about your disability in a few of the acceptance speeches in those early days. How did you feel about that at the time?

Ash Atalla36:13

I felt good about it at the time. The joke that people remember, the first one, was a line that I gave to him because I said to him, Make sure they know I haven't won a competition to be here, because I was suddenly concerned at the optics of people in wheelchairs weren't on stages back then. And he did that joke at the British Comedy Wards, and it's this huge roar.

Ash Atalla36:35

And that kind of started the the double act of that material on stage. I've tried to make the point a couple of times that it's about nuance. And because I think I play fast and loose with the rules around my wheelchair, I'm really happy to use it when I want to. Like I haven't queued at an airport in years.

Ash Atalla36:56

And then other times I get annoyed that other people might even bring it up. You know, I'm a producer and people don't normally notice the producer, but there I was on stage and I got a profile a lot because of the stuff that Ricky and I used to do on stage. I think when I look back at it, maybe I realize or I feel I sold a bit of myself in that moment. I put the wheelchair front and center because I knew it was something that would set me apart in that instance, set me apart in a good way.

Ash Atalla37:28

And just in recent years, as I've thought about it, it's made me whether consider whether I sort of

Ash Atalla37:35

was right to do that.

Presenter37:37

It's interesting that duality and and the ambivalence that you're talking about. You have described having a a very complex relationship with your wheelchair. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Ash Atalla37:51

Yeah, I think when I left the disabled school I found it hard to see other people in wheelchairs. If I went into a restaurant and there was another wheelchair user there I wouldn't go in. I think it was too painful for me. It was sort of too much of a mirror to how I looked. Do you know what they would call this now? They would call it ableism, which is sort of being anti-wheelchair people, but it's me doing it to myself. I imagine I'm going to have to cancel myself.

Speaker 338:18

Yeah.

Ash Atalla38:18

After this ableist comment. And so, yeah, I spent, I didn't want to make any shows.

Ash Atalla38:25

that had disabled people in them.

Presenter38:27

But you have, interestingly, in in recent years. What changed?

Ash Atalla38:32

I had a lot of therapy. I think I got over it. I think I figured out where it was coming from. And I think once I understood what it was and I had established my career,

Ash Atalla38:44

If the first thing that I had done had been about a T V show about disability, I'm pretty sure that I would have been that guy for much of my career. And so it was really important for me to not do that.

Ash Atalla38:58

And um having got there

Ash Atalla39:01

Then I found I could just relax. But that also is a double-edged sword for me because what organizations kind of go, well, Ash could make that show because he is our insurance policy. And that makes me feel anxious, but also at the same time, hears me on the double standards. I go, well, that's a nice bit of business to make that show. I'll do that because any other company would make that. And just because of the complexity of my own wheelchair doesn't mean I shouldn't do that. So it's a really wavy line.

Presenter39:33

And when it comes to casting, which is often part of what you do, what are your thoughts on casting actors in disabled roles? Should those actors always have the disability that they're portraying?

Ash Atalla39:46

Yeah, I think it's a very simple rule now to have. Just make it a hundred percent rule and nobody'll get hurt. Disabled people should

Ash Atalla39:57

only play disabled people on television. It's a complex issue. You can make an argument to justify why an able-bodied actor should do a disabled role. Like you can construct that argument. It's just that for me it's an argument that falls apart really quickly. And so I could make the case to you, I won't, but I could make the case for you, but it's just not one that I believe in.

Presenter40:19

Ash, it's time for disc number seven. What have you got for us?

Ash Atalla40:23

This is The Universal by Blur, but it's so full of hope and it's also so melancholy. I really love songs that make me feel a bit sad. I sing it really loud in the car and it and it really brings me down as well. It's a confusing one and I love it.

Speaker 340:40

This is the next century.

Speaker 340:46

Where the universals free

Speaker 340:52

He could find it anywhere.

Speaker 340:56

Yes, the future's been sold Every night we've gone

Speaker 341:03

And karaoke song.

Speaker 341:09

How we like to sing along.

Presenter41:13

Blur and the Universal. So Ashatella, you have described yourself as a low level, ineffectual troublemaker. You like having something to kick against. It feels like you need a little bit of grit in the oyster to kind of motivate you.

Ash Atalla41:26

Yeah, yeah. I make up enemies in my head. I need something to rail against.

Presenter41:32

So when? In what kind of situation? If you're going into a pitch, you get in to the adversarial kind of mindset.

Ash Atalla41:37

Yeah, I'm not combative. I don't seek argument.

Presenter41:40

But in just in your energy.

Ash Atalla41:42

Yeah, to fire myself up and to keep going. Like my new one is I want to make drama shows, we're making drama shows. And the story I've told myself is that the drama community are posh people who don't want me.

Presenter41:57

Just to get yourself in the zone.

Ash Atalla41:58

Totally, and maybe that's not true. I don't think it is true at all, but

Presenter41:58

Yeah.

Presenter42:02

But it'll do for now.

Ash Atalla42:03

But it'll do for now and it just gives me a tire to punch to keep myself interested and a bit angry. It's exhausting to be like this, by the way. It's quite a tiring mentality to have. Um sometimes I wish it would just dial down a bit.

Presenter42:20

I think when your dad was doing that rocky montage training, he had a phrase that that you've taken on a little bit, a saying that he used to tell you.

Ash Atalla42:28

Yeah, dad used to say to me, they are all bastards. And by that, he meant, like, they won't come to you. Like, go and get them. Dad often thinks that he gave me the idea for certain shows. So he'll go, is that from me? And I go, Dad, what bit about a garage band from Brentford did you think I'd got from my Egyptian gynaecologist father? The one thing that I think that mum and dad recognize is something that's quite important to me, which is that I'm still doing it. I think it's the consistency is nice. I think the shows themselves are often a little mysterious to them. The sort of nuance of stathlets, flats.

Presenter43:12

Or people just do nothing as well.

Ash Atalla43:13

People just do nothing. There's not one for mums and dads on the whole. And so I think they know that people like them. I just don't think they know why.

Ash Atalla43:23

Yeah, I think maybe the drama thing as well is for mum and dad because they'll get that.

Ash Atalla43:29

It's lovely. I feel despite the chaos that is in the mind, I feel a little bit more at peace as I've had that nice run of shows.

Presenter43:39

And you're a dad yourself, too. I mean, we heard a lot about your father's approach to bringing you up. What approach have you taken with your daughter? She's 11?

Ash Atalla43:48

Yeah, my daughter Coco, she's 11. First of all, I really hope she's funny and want her to be funny. It's really important for her to think that that's a really good thing. And she is. She's funny and she's cheeky and she's smart. She's easily the best thing that's happened. I love being a dad. I could spend a million, million hours with her. And I love being her mate.

Presenter44:13

It's almost time to cast you away to our island. What are you expecting there and how are you feeling about being a castaway?

Ash Atalla44:21

I'm not sure I exist.

Ash Atalla44:22

When I'm on my own, I don't know what to do with myself. When I'm on my own at home, sometimes I go to a different room in the house and then I'll go, well, what am I doing in this room? And so I'll go to another room and then I'm just lose my sense of what I'm doing in the first place. So if I don't have people around me, I don't quite know how to be. And so I'm worried about that on the island. I need the energy of people. I'm aggressively social. It's something that's in me. And so to sit there with my own thoughts is a concern.

Presenter45:00

You will have your discs for comfort though, and I'll give you one more before we cast you away. Final track choice: what have you gone for?

Ash Atalla45:07

I'm going to play this for Coco. It's Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson, and it's The Girl Is Mine.

Presenter45:13

So was this a favourite of yours that you listened to together?

Ash Atalla45:15

Yeah, me and her. We sing this all the time together. One of us does Paul, and one of us does Michael. We don't really know after all these years of singing it whose bit is who. We have a real loose acquaintance with the lyrics and we have a loose acquaintance with the melody as well. It's a racket. We sometimes pretend we're singing it for my wife to be Nina, like we're fighting over her, and that's the vibe of the song. But this is a song that I just associate with sitting next to Coco and having the best of times.

Speaker 345:52

Every night she walks right in my dreams Since I met her from the start I'm so proud I am the only one Who is best she lift her heart The girl is mine

Speaker 346:09

Without God, there is a

Speaker 346:16

My

Speaker 346:20

Can't get the dog going, girl.

Presenter46:22

Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney. The girl is mine. So, Ashitala, I'm going to send you away to the island. I'm giving you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one other book. What will it be?

Ash Atalla46:34

I'm gonna take a book called Rewire Your Anxious Brain. I'm really scared about my thoughts being the thing that derails me. It's gonna be like the fact that I won't be able to exist is inherent. So I've hear people on there going, I'm gonna build a hut. I'm not even gonna be able to move. And so I think that's

Ash Atalla46:57

When that's combined with a brain that will yearn for I mean, I've told you that I need people around me already. So I'm gonna try and slow my thoughts down to nothing, fade to black, is what I want. And so

Ash Atalla47:15

My brain can be quite an unforgiving place and if I can just calm that a bit, that's gonna bode me well.

Presenter47:23

You can also have a luxury item. What will that be?

Ash Atalla47:25

A curry house, Lauren. A massive curry house.

Presenter47:28

Okay.

Ash Atalla47:28

An Indian restaurant, a four-story garish, neon-lit, no Mitchell and stars, nothing classy, but I would just

Presenter47:36

Yeah.

Ash Atalla47:38

Sit there and maybe one day you'll change the format and send me a chef.

Presenter47:42

I'd never be allowed to change the format. Imagine that. It would be just opening the door to chaos. It can't happen.

Ash Atalla47:47

Mayhem, so I'll have no thoughts and a curry house.

Presenter47:51

Sounds like my perfect Friday morning.

Ash Atalla47:52

Do you want to come join?

Ash Atalla47:54

Send the tequila.

Presenter47:54

And that's a

Presenter47:55

Yeah, sounds right.

Presenter47:57

And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves?

Ash Atalla48:03

I'm gonna have to choose Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson and I'll be on the island and I'll sing one part and I'll imagine Coco singing the other part.

Presenter48:15

Ashatella, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Ash Atalla48:18

What an honour. Thanks for having me.

Presenter48:34

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ash. I'm sure he'll relish having his personal curry house on the island, even without a chef. We've cast away many producers, including Phil Redmond, David Putnam, and Linda LaPlante. Ash's colleagues from the office, Wiggy Gervais and Stephen Merchant, are in our archive too, along with a couple of Ash's music choices, George Michael and Paul Weller. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, the executive production coordinator was Susie Roylance, the content editor was Mugabe Turia and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time my guest will be the conductor Gustavo Dudemel. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 249:23

Hello, my name is Alex von Tunselmann and I want to introduce you to History's Heroes, the BBC's breathtaking, high-stakes, story-led podcast shining a light on extraordinary people and ordinary people who become extraordinary, including a pioneering surgeon who rebuilt the shattered faces of soldiers. You know, he would look at these men and he would say, don't worry, sonny, you'll have as good a face as any of us when I'm done with you. And the woman who created the international charity, Save the Children.

Speaker 249:54

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