Carol Klein

Speaker 20:01

BBC Sounds

Presenter0:02

Music Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:50

My castaway this week is the gardener and broadcaster Carol Klein. As one of the regular presenters of the BBC's Gardener's World, she's a familiar and respected expert on the pursuit she shares with an estimated 27 million people in the UK. For many years, she ran her own nursery alongside her broadcasting career. She's a six-time Chelsea Flower Show Gold Medal winner, a certified RHS Horticultural Hero, having been awarded the Society's Victoria Medal of Honor in 2018.

Presenter1:21

Her love of plants is, if you'll pardon the pun, rooted in her Lancashire childhood. It all started with her mother's nasturtiums. Then, just as she does in the garden, she used a mix of skill and spontaneity to find her way thereafter. She was an art teacher until she started a family and a garden of her own. Looking for a better work-life balance, she began selling seedlings from her own cottage garden in North Devon at local flower shows. She's been getting her hands dirty professionally ever since. She says, When you go out in the garden, you become engrossed in it. It's been proved that physically touching plants and having your hands in the soil does lift the way you feel about everything. I'd find it very difficult to live without a garden. Carol Klein, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you. So, Carol, I think we should start in your garden at Glebe Cottage, your home for nearly 50 years in Devon. It's become something of a gardening landmark. What did it look like when you first arrived? A bit rough.

Presenter2:20

There was no garden there at all. Our cottage was built for the gardener-come gamekeeper for the rectory next door, so it wasn't really a garden at all. And then over the years, it had just become somewhere really to turn the car around and get out. It's a rough round the edges. And what about the plot itself? It's on quite a slope, isn't it? Yeah, which is great. And there was plenty of space. So it faces southwest. So it's ideal. And it's got a kind of dog leg in it with great big beech trees in one part. So it means part of the garden is shady too. Oh, lovely. So you obviously must have seen the potential from the very beginning. Did you have a grand vision? Absolutely not.

Presenter3:02

I was just so grateful to actually have somewhere where I could garden. And the beauty is, of course, it's still evolving. You know, it's still changing and and growing. What's your process when you're imagining something new for the garden? Where do you start? Is it with a a plant plant palette, a a feeling, a mood?

Presenter3:21

Well, I don't do very much new stuff now because most of it is a question of dealing with what's there. For instance, when we went there were no trees at all in the garden. There was really nothing. A lot of old sheds and old cars.

Presenter3:37

We b we buried one of the cars actually. They dragged a lot of them out, but one of them, the J C B, could only clonk it with his bucket on the front and put it into one of the holes that was there and fill it in with soil. So it's a planting tip really because

Presenter3:54

I planted a cornice on top of it and it's the best tree in the garden now. Really? That's going to take some explaining to future archaeologists. They're going to be like, what's happened here?

Presenter4:04

In a few thousand years. Carol, obviously, you are creative and inventive in the garden, but you've also said that you don't believe in green fingers. Please talk me through this theory, because there'll be listeners who are tuned in thinking, Well, I've just killed everything I've ever tried to grow. Well, they haven't killed anything, it's just that they perhaps haven't given things just the right conditions. But what I mean is, once upon a time, when people started roaming around and depending on hunting and foraging, they would have had to garden, they would have had to grow things once they started to cultivate and stop in one place. So it's something that everybody can do. I mean, it's only common sense. And if you just follow natural laws and don't try and defy nature, then everybody can be.

Presenter4:50

Successful with it. And a bit of experiment is a good thing. And as we're speaking, it is a glorious June outside our studio. Normally at this time of year, how much time would you be spending in the garden on an average day? As much as I possibly could. I'd tell a lie if I said I was out there last night'cause I wasn't. I was just trying to make sure I'd ironed everything before I came.

Presenter5:13

Since it is radio. Radio form. It will be well presented. We appreciate that.

Carol Klein5:15

I love your

Presenter5:19

And what do you like in the garden at this time of year? What's your favorite thing about it? I just love the way it's so alive. It's just r reached its peak now. In the spring all the leaves as they're coming out are all different colours and you can see through them. But then

Presenter5:34

By the time you get to July, August, everything's become the same green, but right now, everything's still looking fresh and yet full. You've been a presenter on Gardener's World for 20 years, but you are the queen, Carol, of encouraging viewers to grow things from seed or from cuttings rather than buying plants. What appeals to you about that way of gardening? You know, it's frugal, it's accessible. Is that what you love about it? Yes, it is, and that's what I've always tried to do. And when I've been presenting, I don't know whether it's conscious or I don't know, but I love it so much, that whole thrill.

Carol Klein6:04

T yeah

Presenter6:12

Of seeing a seed germinate, and it's still exactly the same now as it was all that time ago with my mum pushing those nasturtium seeds in. You know, you see things coming up, and it's thrilling, and it also connects you with nature, with what's real. And so much of our lives is spent, you know, in front of screens or walking on concrete and tarmac. But even if you've only got a balcony and a couple of pots, actually growing something and seeing it, nurturing it, loving it, it's just a wonderful experience. Carol, you're here to share your discs with us today. What's your first? I've chosen Anina Simone. I love Nina Simone anyway, it's feeling good. I just love it because it's all about freedom and I love her, I love her voice.

Speaker 27:04

River running tree, you know how I feel.

Speaker 27:11

Blossom on the tree, you know how I feel.

Speaker 27:16

A new dawn, it's a new day, it's a new life.

Speaker 27:21

Oh yeah.

Carol Klein7:22

And I'm feeling good.

Presenter7:32

Nina Simone and feeling good. So take me back to the beginning then. What's your first gardening memory? My mum taking me out the back door.

Presenter7:41

Um

Presenter7:42

Poking my finger into some soil, giving me a nasturtium seed to drop into the hole and covering it up. But better still, later on at the end of the summer, going out with a paper bag and collecting seed for the next year. I was always mad about nature. I mean, there wasn't a lot of it. We lived on the A6. But I'd seek out whatever I could find anywhere. I just always, always was madly interested in flowers and trees and birds. Loved birds. Sounds like your mum was supporting you. Was there anybody else who shared that passion? Well, yeah, the mud through the kitchen. She told me the story, I couldn't remember it myself, of taking buckets of soil into the kitchen. And a lot of your listeners might not know what Lino is.

Presenter8:32

There was liner on the kitchen floor, and I just emptied it out and then made a garden in there. And she let you do that? Yeah. Yeah, of course she did. She was great. My mum, she was terrific. So tell me a little bit more about your parents then. You were born 80 years ago in Manchester between VE Day and VJ Day, I think, to parents Jeannie and Ken. What were they like?

Presenter8:54

Well they're wonderful parents.

Presenter8:56

I can't remember ever arguing with my mum. I can only remember her telling me off twice once to tell me that I was too much like my dad.

Presenter9:08

and wants to tell me that I thought I was always right.

Presenter9:12

Which I do.

Presenter9:14

But she was just so supportive and I was the eldest. I've got or I had two younger brothers and she was the only one who was really glad I was a girl'cause um both my dad and my granddad for the first year and a half of my life called me Bill. Just in hope. You've just been desperate for a boy. That's right and even after my brother Bill was born

Carol Klein9:32

Yeah.

Presenter9:39

I'm christened. I think I still got called Bill accidentally. You were still the original Bill. Yeah. Flowers were very important to your family when you were growing up, Carolyn. Nurturing your horticultural leanings. You had a couple of rituals, I think, with snowdrops and bluebells. What did they involve?

Carol Klein9:43

You were still

Carol Klein9:44

Yeah.

Presenter9:56

Oh, well, my grandma I am, that's my dad's mum.

Presenter10:01

had sisters and brothers all over the place, but in the spring from Cornwall from one of her sisters would arrive this brown paper parcel, small parcel with sealing wax on it, brown paper and sealing wax, and she'd gather us all, my brothers and my cousins and everybody into the glass porch at the back and she'd open this up and pull the paper off, open the box and inside there were snowdrops and moss and I can remember the mixed you know how evocative scent is. Absolutely, yeah. I can be right back there and I can smell that smell, fresh moss and these beautiful snowdrops. And I'm going to do it from now on with my grandchildren too. You know, it was just the best present anybody could ever give.

Carol Klein10:33

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter10:49

and the blue bells of Myanmar Bull.

Presenter10:52

used to go up to it was called Oakwood, and we'd pick great arms full of bluebells. Couldn't do it now, of course. But we're on our bikes. I had to steer and pedal home with all these bluebells in my arms, but it was quite good. I could do it with no hands in place it's

Presenter11:11

It's time for some more music, Carol. Your second choice today. What are you taking to the island next and why? I'm taking a Buddy Holly record. It's not fade away. I can remember this time when I was supposed to be doing homework at Elaine Pottersmith's house, but instead I went round the corner to Rogue Green and we had a shed called Charlie's Shed and we'd sit round and gamble three card brag and everything in there was a penny. So Charlie had charge you a penny for a cup of tea or coffee, a penny for a fag or a penny for a matchstick because we gambled with matchsticks. He must have been making a killing. Yeah he did. He did but he played us wonderful records on this little teeny deck in the corner. Were you rebellious? What kind of teenager?

Carol Klein12:00

Were you rebellious?

Presenter12:02

Yeah, I suppose you could. Spirited, would we say? Yes, yes, I had my own ideas and believed in going my own way, doing my own thing. I remember I ran away for the first time when I was about 13, and it was bonfire night and

Presenter12:23

It was really, really cold, and my two mates, who also used to come to Charlie's, came out and brought me marmalade sandwiches and

Presenter12:32

Where did you run away to? How far did you get? Oh, just round the corner from Ch

Carol Klein12:34

Yeah.

Presenter12:38

Not very far at all. So they turn up with the marmalade sandwiches to keep you going? Yeah. How long did you last before you went back?

Carol Klein12:43

Hello.

Presenter12:44

But I went back the next morning.

Presenter12:47

Quite early.

Presenter12:49

On my bike.

Carol Klein12:53

I'm gonna tell you how it's gonna be.

Carol Klein12:56

Uh

Carol Klein12:59

Gonna give your love

Carol Klein13:03

I wanna love you that day.

Carol Klein13:08

In the mile of

Presenter13:09

Uh

Presenter13:13

I'll let you know my love.

Presenter13:24

Buddy Holly and Not Fade Away. So Carol Klein, we've heard about you gambling. We've heard about the love of nature, but also the running away. However, you were obviously a gifted student because you'd been awarded a scholarship to a prestigious school. How did that fit with your tomboyish ways and your love of nature? Well, it fitted brilliantly, really.

Carol Klein13:45

Maybe

Presenter13:47

My dad went to Manchester Grammar School. He was a scholarship boy and he left earlier than he would have liked because my grandad chopped off the fingers of one hand on a circular tore. So that's an industrial accident? Yeah, so my dad left school and went to work purportedly to, you know, help family finances because there's no social security or national health then. But in actual fact he bought most of his first wages. Manchester Grammar didn't accept girls then. So the next best thing was Bolton School, which is a very good school. So I passed the entrance exam and I went and I was 10. So most of the time was spent making sure I'd passed my 11 plus.

Carol Klein13:58

So an industrial accident.

Presenter14:31

which I did. But I can remember going down to my eleven plus exam, which, you know, you went to from home. And I remember walking down Cow Lane with um

Presenter14:41

He was called Dick this lad.

Presenter14:43

And he didn't even have a pencil case, he didn't have a pencil, he had no idea what he was in for at all.

Carol Klein14:49

Yeah.

Presenter14:50

And I think even at that age it just struck me how unequal things.

Presenter14:56

Things are, and how unfair it all was. Anyway, when I went to Bolton School, the very first day I went I got all my brand new uniform on, but I'd heard that at Doffcocker Lodge's just up the road from there, which was a big sort of reservoir, but there were some great crested grebes, and I'd only ever seen their pictures. So I had to go. And I was faced with these iron railings with sharp points on the top, but I climbed over the top, and as I did.

Presenter15:26

Down the other side I ripped my blazer, I could hear this great big

Carol Klein15:29

It's great.

Presenter15:30

Run.

Presenter15:32

Anyway, I saw the great Cressy Greaves and I got back home and I went round the back of our house and um my mum was there and I showed her what I'd done and my dad never found out about it'cause that brand new blazer, she sewed it up so you just couldn't tell at all. But I saw my great Cressy Greaves. Well that's the main thing. How were they?

Speaker 315:55

Yeah well

Presenter15:57

They were wonderful.

Presenter15:59

Carol, you weren't at that school for very long. It came to an abrupt end your time there during a very difficult time for your family. Tell me what happened.

Presenter16:09

And

Presenter16:10

My father was called into the school.

Presenter16:13

And towards the end of that year, I'm told that the catchment area.

Presenter16:18

for scholarships had changed. And um I'm afraid y you know your scholarship no longer exists. If you want to come any more, then we would have had to pay, which we couldn't never have afforded to do anyway. But the whole reason I think

Presenter16:36

although this was never spoken out, was that m they found out that my father had been in prison for a year.

Presenter16:42

So he'd left the civil service with his ill-gotten gains from selling insurance stamps on the cheap. So he fell foul of a scam, didn't he? What what actually happened? No, I think it was somebody in this office who was already doing this and he was drawn into it. I mean he knew what he was doing. He wanted some dosh to start his own T V shop.

Presenter17:05

And my grandad wouldn't lend him the money and, you know, the shot was very successful for a couple of years, but then they caught up with him and he was sent to prison for a year. How old were you when that happened? I think I was probably eight or nine. And what do you remember about it? It must have been a really difficult time.

Carol Klein17:15

Yeah.

Presenter17:24

I can remember us going to Pothali, to Butlin's holiday camp, with um my brothers and my mum and dad and our uncle Lynn.

Presenter17:33

who wasn't a real uncle but a friend of my dad's coming in a separate car and then my dad disappearing on the first day and then I didn't see him again until we went to visit him in Preston prison. What were you told about what was happening? Can you remember? Well, yes, I was told, I was the eldest. Just remember going in to see him and we weren't even allowed to go and give him a

Speaker 317:50

Yeah.

Presenter17:56

A hug or anything. We're in the same room, but across this big table. That must have been awful. How did you react? It was horrible being without my dad for a

Presenter18:06

You know, for a year. We did a huge welcome home sign and um I kept it under my bed rolled up for most of the year. And we got it out the day it was coming out and and my mum had cooked him something splendid. She was a brilliant cook.

Presenter18:22

And um he didn't come home so he he went to the proper

Carol Klein18:27

Oh my god.

Presenter18:28

But he he came home eventually, but was a bit of a downer really.

Presenter18:34

Anyway. Um and tell me more about your your mum and how she coped with that, because sh so she had all three of you for a whole year and she coped brilliantly. She was such a fine example of what it is to be a woman. She ran the shop.

Carol Klein18:41

The holy era

Presenter18:50

And the two people who were working for him just pinched the customer list and went and set up on their own. And you can imagine there was a quite a stigma around, you know, at that time. Absolutely, yeah. But she coped very well with that. You know, all three of us were at school, but somehow she managed to cope with that whole thing for the whole year. She just did splendidly. And I think we were doing far better when he came out than we were when he went in. And what about your dad? I mean, how did what he went through affect him?

Presenter19:25

Not as much as it affected us, I don't think, perhaps. Carol, let's take a minute for some more music. It's your third choice today. What are we going to hear next, and why? Bob Dylan, Carina Carina. I love this song. It's very sad. You know, it nearly always makes me cry, so you'll have to excuse me. You've lent me a tissue, so I'll be alright.

Carol Klein19:46

Be alright.

Presenter19:48

But I just think it's the most beautiful, beautiful song. I think everybody should have the capacity to be sad. I think it's just as important as being happy.

Carol Klein20:02

Care we've been so long

Carol Klein20:10

Karina, Karina, get we've been so long.

Carol Klein20:19

I've been worried about you, baby.

Carol Klein20:22

Baby, please come home.

Presenter20:28

Bob Dylan and Karina Karina.

Presenter20:33

So Carol Klein, you left school at fifteen and you did a series of quite poorly paid jobs. What kinds of things were you doing?

Presenter20:42

I was a shop assistant first of all. I wanted to go to art college, you see, but you couldn't go anywhere until you were sixteen.

Presenter20:50

So I thought, what's the next best thing? How about doing some window dressing? So I applied for a job in Kendall Milne. I thought that was quite arty. Well, I was biding my time before I went to art college. I have to say that my father that was anathema to him. So he just didn't understand the art college thing? No, absolutely not. He wanted me to follow in his footsteps and do the things he hadn't done. So he loved languages and had wanted to do them. And I was alright at French.

Carol Klein21:07

So he just did.

Carol Klein21:10

No.

Presenter21:22

I got chucked out of my Spanish class, but never mind. But I just wanted to do art and I got a job as a shop assistant, first of all selling

Presenter21:31

buttons, and then hosiery in the haberdashery department.

Presenter21:36

I had a very unhappy time whilst I was at school, for one bit, and I actually tried taking pills and

Presenter21:47

Was, as you can see, was totally unsuccessful.

Carol Klein21:51

Yeah.

Presenter21:52

It's really difficult being a young teenager. I should imagine it's even more difficult nowadays. When I was that age, I had the opportunity. You know, I could actually chase my dream, follow what I wanted to do. But now it's just so, so difficult for young people. And you did, as you say, have friends, which must have made a difference. I know that you were making the most of going out and enjoying Manchester nightlife. There was a night that I have to ask you about where you shared a bath with John Lennon. Yeah, that's right. Talk me through it. I'm afraid it wasn't nearly as exciting as it sounds. It's a great headline, though. Yeah, it is, isn't it?

Carol Klein22:32

Yeah.

Presenter22:34

I used to go every night after I'd finished at Kendall Milne up to a a coffee bar called Amigos. I used to help drain up in the kitchen just to earn enough money for my bus fare back home. There were often parties arranged from there and one night I was invited to a party and I went and I was told that this group there who were called the Beatles were going to be there. I had no idea really who they were at all. It was the Oasis Club actually in Manchester where they'd been performing and this was very very early days. So I went along to the party and I got chatting to this bloke and he was really nice but it was very noisy party and the only place we could find to have a proper chat was sitting in the bath. We didn't turn the water on, we didn't take our clothes off. We just chatted. What did you talk about? About art mainly because I think he'd been to art college and talked a bit about music too, of course. Mainly about art. It was very nice, yeah. And that was John Lennon. Yeah.

Presenter23:42

Wow.

Presenter23:45

Well, as we've been talking about music, I think we'd better hear some your fourth disc today, Carol Klein. What's next for us? Well, it's not the Beatles, though. I could easily have chosen one of those. But it's Al Green. It's Let's Stay Together. Me and Neil went to see Al Green in Hammersmith and it was lovely. And we've always played his records. So you and your husband Neil love Al Green? Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't my husband then. Not Al Green, I mean Neil.

Speaker 224:15

Never be.

Speaker 224:17

Uh

Presenter24:21

Oh, baby

Speaker 224:27

Let's stay together

Speaker 224:31

Loving you well

Carol Klein24:36

Come to good and bad and happy as you are.

Presenter24:43

Al Green and Let's Stay Together. So Carol Klein, you got a place at Bolton College of Art. After more study in Newport and Brighton, you qualified as an art teacher and you worked in that field for thirteen years, I think. How did it suit you?

Presenter24:57

I loved it. I didn't want to go and teach first of all'cause, you know, I disliked school at the end of it. But um I absolutely loved teaching, it was great. And I've been so lucky, you know, the kids I've taught.

Carol Klein25:09

You know the

Presenter25:11

Fairness has always been important to you, Carol, and you actually took one of the earliest sex discrimination cases to court. You'd been teaching for quite some time. What happened? They gave the job that I should have had to a bloke who was less qualified than I was, so I took the Inner London Educational Authority to court. Did you win? No.

Carol Klein25:34

No.

Presenter25:35

My head of department was Paulie. He'd been ill for quite a long time. And then in the end he decided he was leaving. And there were several of us in the department, but I was the most sort of senior, if you like. I'd been there for quite a while. So when his job came up, I applied for the job.

Presenter25:52

I applied for it, and I knew I could do it.

Presenter25:55

Um I'd been doing it, in fact, for quite a while before that. I took them to court under the Sex Discrimination Act. Neil was my Mackenzie man in court when we we fought it, I explained what had happened. The judge reserved his judgment and then they came out weeks later with a decision that the Act didn't apply because it was when we had the interview it was before it came into

Presenter26:23

Whatever you call it, operation. It didn't count because it predated the kind of legal mechanism. So, did you disappoint it? I wasn't at all surprised.

Carol Klein26:23

View.

Presenter26:33

I knew the job should have been mine.

Presenter26:36

Carol, you mentioned your husband Neil. The two of you had had met by the time you brought the sex discrimination case then. You were living in a London flat then. I wonder how much gardening you were able to do there? First of all, we lived in Kentil Rise when eventually

Presenter26:52

He persuaded me, or I persuaded him, that we should be together. And all I had was a window box. I grew nasturtiums and sweet peas. So Mrs. Forbes, who lived downstairs, didn't really appreciate it, because all the nasturtiums were hanging down in front of her window. But this West Indian family on the other side of the road came out one day and applauded us because of course they could enjoy this place. But then we went to St Charles Square in Lebrook Grove and I asked my landlord if I could have a little bit of this garden at the front of the house and he said yes. So that was my first garden really. And what did you grow there?

Speaker 327:19

Yeah.

Presenter27:34

Well, it was about as big as this studio and

Carol Klein27:36

With

Presenter27:38

We're in a matchbox today. By the time we left, I had seven trees in there. Seven?

Presenter27:45

I took them all up and gave them to friends, so they all got replanted. And I used to go round all these houses that were derelict and their gardens were just and find all sorts of wonderful things and bring them into the garden. Carol, when you talked about getting together with Neil, you said when I persuaded him that we should be together. So that's an interesting sentence. I've got to pull on that thread. Right. What happened? So you're doing the persuading? He was trying to persuade me for ages and ages, but I'd had quite enough of men and he was a great friend, he was a and always has been. And then we were at a party one night and I wasn't too keen on you know changing our relationship but then this big beautiful gorgeous lady I could see her across the room just taking Neil off out of the door. So I thought it's now or never Carol so I went over and dissuaded him from going with her and then persuaded him that it was about time we really got together properly so we did. And that was that. Yeah. What's number five? What are we going to hear today?

Carol Klein28:53

Yeah.

Presenter28:55

Lou Reed. I didn't know which to choose but I thought in the end I had to go for perfect day. Me and Neil went on lots of picnics, both before and after. We changed our friendship into a something of a more romantic nature. This track just always reminds me of that, and happy times.

Carol Klein29:18

Oh, it's such a perfect day I'm glad I spent it with you.

Carol Klein29:30

Oh such a perfect day, you just keep me hanging on.

Carol Klein29:38

You just keep me hanging on.

Presenter29:46

Lou Reed and Perfect Day. So you and Neil moved to Glebe Cottage in Devon, Carroll, and you had two daughters. How did you make the move from teaching art to working in horticulture? People are always asking me about my career and I don't really never think of it as that. I was always mad about growing plants, just always wanted. So when we moved there, I just wanted to get out of London. It felt very unfair in one way because I knew a lot of the kids that I was teaching might never have that possibility. So I felt a bit like I was leaving them in the lurch in some ways. But on the other hand, I wanted a garden. And when we went down there, everybody tried to persuade us to, because we'd never owned a house or anything, to have somewhere in the town. And I said, no, I don't care about that. I just want a garden. The house is secondary. So I taught for a couple of years. Then I had my daughters. And all the time I was growing plants. We actually, I shouldn't tell you this, but I will. When we went there, one of the conditions of the mortgage was that we changed our windows because it was the original windows.

Carol Klein30:35

And the

Presenter30:59

And we've still got them. You've still got them now? Yeah, we've still got them now.

Carol Klein31:01

Because

Presenter31:03

Um

Presenter31:05

But I spent the money on a greenhouse.

Presenter31:08

And there are windows in a greenhouse. You could probably massage that to make the fact fit. I probably could, but I don't think they're going to take the house away. The only way I could sort of make a garden and stop the garden was by growing plants. And you'd had the girls, so you had your daughters. Did that make that whole work-life balance thing became more difficult? Although I'd been on maternity leave, I decided that I wasn't going to go back. And that was just going to try and earn a living.

Presenter31:37

Growing plants. What kind of places were you selling? Bonstable Market. Although I couldn't get in at my local market, South Moulton, until I'd been exhibiting at Chelsea for a couple of years. So I used to go twice a week in an old van, stock with plants. But I subsidised that by selling bread and jam from our soft fruit and any spare surplus veg because growing veg has always been quite important to me. So you first exhibited as Glebe Cottage Plants in March 1990 and you were doing 16 shows a year I think at one point. Yeah we did either 16 shows for 17 years or 17 shows for 16 years. I can't remember which one. That is quite a full calendar. How much pressure is there to put something together that's going to look perfect on the day and and do it 16 times per calendar year? Your only pressure really is from yourself.

Carol Klein32:21

Yeah.

Presenter32:36

Us might me.

Presenter32:38

A bit sad having to leave.

Presenter32:40

'Cause some of these things, like Chelsea, you're there for the week and a few days beforehand setting up. So it used to make me a bit sad leaving the kids and Neil. But we did find out that Neil could cook'cause up until then I'd cooked.

Presenter32:57

And he's a really good cook. So it freed Neil up in the kitchen. That's a bonus. It did.

Carol Klein33:00

So it freeze

Carol Klein33:02

Yeah.

Presenter33:03

I mean, w but what about you? Because I'm I'm imagining that actually as someone who'd trained in art, this must have been a real breakthrough to kind of, you know, go into doing the exhibitions because it brings together that side of what you love with loving plants, loving nature. Suddenly everything kind of comes together and it must have influenced the way you create your displays.

Presenter33:28

Yes, I suppose so. But I mean, I always love I think that the best part of gardening is putting plants together. The only thing I hated about shows was taking it all down.

Presenter33:40

You were very successful, O'Carol, from the beginning. Four years after you'd first shown at Chelsea, you were awarded your first gold medal for your cottage garden plants. What did it mean to you, that first victory? It was pretty important. And when you go in, you sort of put your fingers in your ears and put your hands up as blinkers, because you don't want anybody to tell you anything until you go up to your stand and you see this card.

Presenter34:05

So I did, just that, and people tried to stop me on the way and I just said, out of the way, out of the way. And I I saw that gold medal and it was just wonderful. And it was so wonderful for all the people who'd taken part in it too, you know, it was terrific. I think we might have had a glass or two of something. Something bubbling. And there was a little note beside it from Stephen Bennett, who was the show's director then, and it said, Well done, Mrs. Muddy Boots.

Presenter34:36

Time for some more music, Carol Klein. It's your sixth choice today. What's next and why? Little Richard, Tootsie Fruity. I could have chosen almost any Little Richard song. This is because I used to drive the girls to school first of all when they were little, before Alice could go on the bus. And I used to sing them Little Richard songs. We didn't have a tape or anything, you know, there were stapes in those days. And when they were in the bath, I'd sing them too, and we all used to join in. And I just love, love Little Richard.

Presenter35:12

Wa-ba-ba-luma-ba-ba-ba-ba-to-da-doo-ba- Oh no! Boo-da-doo

Carol Klein35:17

Hello, bro.

Carol Klein35:20

I'm Rudy, to the food I'm rude.

Carol Klein35:25

Root it, root it, oh rude.

Carol Klein35:27

Oh baba baluma bala ba bama got a girl.

Speaker 235:31

And now you're soon

Speaker 235:32

Tonight.

Carol Klein35:33

Oh, that's what Do

Carol Klein35:35

Uh

Speaker 235:35

Uh

Carol Klein35:35

Uh

Speaker 235:35

Uh

Carol Klein35:35

Got a girl named Super

Carol Klein35:37

To know less what to do.

Presenter35:41

Little Richard and Tootie Fruity.

Presenter35:45

You've been in the gardening business for a very long time. How do you think that it's changing? There are trends, aren't there, and fashions with planting. Do you pay much attention to those? No.

Presenter35:57

I think what's important for me is that everybody gets a chance to garden. So accessibility. Yeah. And to that end, I've expressed the view frequently, but to no avail so far, that horticulture should be part of the curriculum. Now, lots of junior schools do it, lots of primary schools.

Carol Klein36:20

Do I

Presenter36:20

But they never get any allowance for it. It's always voluntary and there's no proper allowance in the curriculum for it.

Presenter36:28

But I think it should be part and parcel of everybody's curriculum right the way through. And obviously having experience as a teacher, you must have a kind of clear idea of what the benefits would be of that. You know, what would your argument be about the benefits that it would bring to the kids? I think it it'd benefit them right across the board. You know, just putting your hands in the soil, actually doing that, growing things, just connects you to the earth. I mean, literally. But, you know, as far as you cerebrally too, I think. If we're expecting our kids to make less of a mess of looking after the world as we've made.

Presenter37:06

And I'm older than you, so I've made more of a mess of it than you have. Then I think we've got to teach them about the earth and teach them to respect it, love it, and want to help it to get better from what we've done. It teaches you about geography, it teaches you about history, it teaches you about maths. I don't just mean counting fees and everything, but the whole idea of exponentiality, you know, and how things sort of grow and get bigger and bigger all the time. And it teaches you yeah, the most important thing is it teaches you that you're part of the human race and as such you've got to look after the planet you live on. Carol, you went through a difficult time last year. You were diagnosed with breast cancer and had surgery. How are you feeling now?

Presenter38:00

I'm feeling terrific. Yeah, feeling really grand. I was very, very lucky because I had a double mastectomy which they decided we decided.

Presenter38:10

Um

Presenter38:11

It was great because it I had two surgeons, two women, one on each side.

Presenter38:18

And I've told them beforehand they'd better make sure that they matched. But it the thing that I've derived from that altogether is that it's hugely important to me to tell everybody right from the word go, and I think kids in school ought to be taught about it, girls and boys. I think it'd do a lot of good in other ways too, to check their breasts, to do it regularly, what it means, how much it's going to help. Because first of all, I was just incensed that when you be when you're over seventy you don't get invited back and you have to arrange yourself for a scan. For a mammogram, yeah. But uh it struck me how many young women particularly are suffering from breast cancer. So I think it's vital that people get in there quick.

Carol Klein39:07

I

Presenter39:09

I think there was a rose plant that helped in your recovery. How? Just outside a bedroom window. Because it takes you a little while to get over this. Didn't take me too long though. I was still able to do Chelsea. There's a rose called Banksia Lutia. They call it the Banksian rose. It's a rose from China. It's double yellow, pale, soft yellow. It's got the loveliest flowers. But it's the kind of rose you should plant when you've got a manor house and you've got a huge wall. It's much too big for a cottage wall, but nonetheless, it flowers its head off. It grows beautifully. And

Presenter39:47

I could actually see it when I was in bed.

Presenter39:51

It just came out over that period. It was sort of April and into May when I was recovering.

Presenter39:57

And then I read about it because I was doing some research, I was writing about it, and I found out that in China, where it comes from, it's used medicinally.

Presenter40:07

And it's used to heal wounds. And I just thought that was so so apt. But just going out there as soon as I could and growing seeds and knowing that the whole thing just goes on is the most sort of reassuring and magical thing. Yes, to find your way back into those rhythms is really, really therapeutic, I think.

Presenter40:34

That first cup of coffee in the garden or a cup of tea in the morning when you've been laid up in bed is a big thing, isn't it?

Carol Klein40:40

Yeah.

Presenter40:46

Oh well, I can see someone's feeling better. Right, let's have disc number seven, Carol. Your seventh choice today, what's it gonna be? It's the song of the skylark.

Presenter40:55

It was the most beautiful and the most optimistic thing in the world. And then it's seven years ago, because it's nearly Hampton Court time now, isn't it? My next brother down, Bill, he died. He he he had mesothelioma, it's the kind of lung cancer you get from asbestos poisoning.

Presenter41:16

And I'd been with them on the Sunday night and had to travel down to London to go to Hampton Court and he was very, very poorly that night. But as I went into the Marquis and I was on my own, I walked up to the end. My sister-in-law phoned up, lovely Helen, and told me um that he'd died. And I went out to the end of the Marquis and

Presenter41:42

When you walk out there, you walk out into all this sort of grassland and, you know, it was sort of waving gently and skylocked

Presenter41:55

Not just one, but there were loads of them'cause there were load loads of grassland. They were all flying up at various stages, singing their beautiful song. So, you know, I always think that it reminds me of Bill, and it just reminds me of all.

Presenter42:17

It just reminds me of all that's positive about

Presenter42:24

Being alive in the world.

Presenter42:54

The Song of the Skylark

Presenter42:57

Carol, in twenty twenty three you were awarded the Royal Horticultural Society's iconic Horticultural Hero Award. Do you think there's a Carol Klein style of gardening, and if there is, how would you describe it?

Presenter43:11

I'd love to think that people emulate me in terms of being mad about gardening, but I think that's one of the terrific things about gardening and putting plants together. Everybody does it differently. Some people think that colour is all important, and some people think that just growing your own stuff is most important. And I don't think it matters at all. You know, I just don't think it's important. It's just important to do it and love it and, you know, just be part of it. And it doesn't matter really whether you're gardening in a window box or, you know, you've got acres. Well, of course, Carol, you're going to have a new landscape to explore because we're about to cast you away to the desert island. What kind of island are you imagining would you like if you could choose? What are you picturing? Well, I'd thought it would probably be somewhere tropical.

Presenter44:09

I wouldn't like to have to garden in the tropics nearly as much as I would love to garden in a temperate climate,'cause nothing changes in the same way, and I think that's what's lovely about gardening here. Everything's changing all the time.

Presenter44:23

Even when it's going down it's changing, you know, and then it

Presenter44:27

Up again. So I'd imagine that there's got to be plenty of vegetation there,'cause I shall have to feed myself and I'll have to find out what I can grow. I'm not allowed a knife, I know. But I'm sure that I can fashion something, um, so I could layer things at any rate. You could probably knock up a flint or something. Oh, I I reckon I could. Found a yeah, a couple

Carol Klein44:49

Oh, I I reckon I could found a he

Presenter44:52

A couple of sharp stones somewhere.

Presenter44:55

It sounds, though, like the practical side doesn't daunt you too much, and you're quite into the natural aspect of it. What about the emotional side, the isolation? What would you miss the most?

Presenter45:08

I love people.

Presenter45:09

I love them nearly as much as I love plants. I miss my family hugely, that goes without saying. But I I I just love talking to people and finding out about them and I mean gardening can be quite a sort of you often do it on your own, which is why I love having the opportunity to talk to people about it, real people. So I might make up a few imaginary friends. Okay, yeah. Yeah, and then we could have discussions and argue about things and and agree sometimes as well.

Carol Klein45:25

On your own.

Carol Klein45:35

Okay, yeah.

Presenter45:42

I think you're going to be all right, Carol Klein. I'm quite looking forward to this for you.

Presenter45:46

It's time for one more disc before we cast you away though, your final choice today. What have you gone for? It was really hard choosing these eight. I mean so many things have been left out. But I'm going for Elvis Costello and Radio Radio. Why this one? It's quite rebellious and it's um you know even though I'm fairly ancient now I think it's really important not just to take everything you've told and just to find out for yourself and forge your own path and be yourself. So we've got to cultivate our rebellious spirits as well as our gardens have we? Yeah definitely. A bit of Elvis Costello will help. Let's go.

Carol Klein46:16

B

Speaker 246:25

They say you better listen to the wise shot reason

Presenter46:31

Yeah.

Speaker 246:31

They don't give you any choice cause they think that it's treason

Speaker 246:36

So you had better do as you were told You better listen to the radio

Carol Klein46:49

I wanna bite the hand that feeds me I wanna bite that hand so

Presenter46:55

Elvis Costello, for all the rebels out there, Radio Radio. So Carol Klein, it's time to send you to your island. I'm going to give you the books to take with you, of course, the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one other book. What will it be? Richard Maby's Flora Britannica. So this is a classic, as I understand it. Tell me about it. It's a sort of modern day, up-to-date version of all the old floras. So it's not just compiling a list of all the plants that grow in the British Isles, because that's what I'd love to be reminded of, of course. But it's all the tales of their connections with human beings. He did the most incredible amount of research on this book, and he's also the most wonderful writer. You know, you read one of these things, it's also illustrated, but you read one of these descriptions and you're right there. You know, you can see that field of oxide daisies. So even though I'm on the tropical island, I'm still going to be able to think about the plants and the people. Oh, what a glorious choice. It's yours. You can also have a luxury item for pleasure or for sensory stimulation. What would you like to take with you?

Presenter48:10

I think it's got to be a big bottle of Chanel number five. Oh. But I might need a fridge to keep it in my time. It's very hot. Chanel number five and a fridge. Done. And it's one of the few scents that's actually based on real flowers. What's it based on? Which flower? Roses and jasmine.

Presenter48:30

And finally, which track of the eight that you've shared with us today, Carol, would you save from the waves first if you had to?

Presenter48:38

It's a toss-up between Nina Simone and the Skylark. I think it might have to be the Skylark.

Presenter48:45

Carol Klein, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you for listening to them.

Presenter49:04

Hello, it was lovely chatting to Carol and I hope she's very happy on her island smelling of Chanel number five and discovering which plants are growing there.

Presenter49:12

There are more than 2,000 programmes in our archive that you can listen to, including other gardeners like Monty Don, Sarah Raven and Christopher Lloyd. You'll also find Richard Mabey, the author of Carol's chosen book Flora Britannica in the archive too. You can hear all of those programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Disc's website. The studio manager for today's programme was Sue Mayo. The executive production coordinator was Susie Roylance. The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky. The content editor was Mugabe Turia and the producer was Sarah Taylor. Join me next time when my guest will be the television producer Asher Tuller.

Speaker 350:07

Strong message here from

Speaker 250:08

From BBC Radio 4. I'm Amanda Yunucci. And I'm Helen Lewis. A comedy writer and a journalist teaming up like a pair of unkempt and unlikely superheroes.

Speaker 350:17

Our mission is to decipher political language.

Speaker 250:20

Stress testing to destruction those used and abused buzzwords and phrases.

Speaker 350:24

Finding out what they really mean.

Speaker 250:26

And looking at whether they're meant to deceive us or to destroy us. Or to disturb us.

Speaker 350:30

And our pledge is to help you spot the tricks of the verbal trait.

Speaker 250:34

But be won, this series does feature strong political language that some listeners may find an inverted pyramid of piffle.

Speaker 350:40

Strong message here from BBC Radio 4.

Speaker 250:43

Listen now on BBC Sun.