Romesh Ranganathan

Speaker 30:01

BBC Sounds.

Presenter0:02

Me

Speaker 30:02

Mm-hmm.

Presenter0:03

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio 4. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds. Listeners will also get access to episodes 28 days earlier than everyone else. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:52

My castaway this week is the comedian Romesh Ranganathan. He's a BAFTA winning broadcaster, a stand-up actor and writer who's been a fixture on British TV screens for the past decade. His travelogues have taken him from the Arctic to the Sahara and he's tried everything from wrestling to opera singing with his good friend Rob Beckett in Rob and Romesh Versus. He starred in his own sitcom and in 2021 followed in the footsteps of Anne Robinson to host The Weakest Link. That's before we even get to the International Comedy Tour's best-selling books and bringing his love of hip-hop to Radio 2. It's almost as if he's making up for lost time and who can blame him? He was born and raised in Crawley and came to Standup in his thirties after a career as a maths teacher and starting a family. The early days were a struggle. At one point he was too skint to retrieve his car from the pound after it was repossessed. Eventually his star began to rise. He says, Contentment is not good for comedy. If I suddenly became happy then I think I'd have to quit. But luckily I'm a hugely pessimistic, negative person, so I can't imagine that's going to happen anytime soon. Romesh Ranganathan, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Romesh Ranganathan1:58

Thank you very much for having me. I'm quite slightly nervous actually.

Presenter2:01

Oh really? That's not like you, is it?

Romesh Ranganathan2:03

I know, well, it's just like sort of talking about I mean, I do talk a lot, it's my job, but like talking about myself like this.

Presenter2:08

Shoes on the other foot. There are two microphones on stage, metaphorically speaking.

Romesh Ranganathan2:10

On stage.

Romesh Ranganathan2:12

Absolutely, yeah.

Presenter2:13

Okay. So let's start with that discontentment that I just mentioned because you do play the misanthrope on stage. In person, you strike me as somebody who absolutely loves what they do. Talk me through those two personalities.

Romesh Ranganathan2:19

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan2:25

Basically, a lot of people say to me that they think I'm putting on an act when I'm on stage, but actually, I think I'm putting on an act when I'm off stage. And what what I mean by that is that when I'm doing stand-up, I am saying what I think unfiltered. And obviously, there's comic exaggeration, but actually, I'm not worried about the social repercussions of what I'm saying when I'm delivering it onstage. You know, the sweet spot for me has always been when you say something that you're slightly nervous to express.

Romesh Ranganathan2:56

And you can feel the audience resonate with that.

Presenter2:58

Okay, can you give me an example of that?

Romesh Ranganathan3:00

One of the examples that became so synonymous with me that I actually became worried about my second child and I'll tell you why it's because I did this bit where I said our first child was so great and so easy and then the second one came along I was just like why did we have another kid? It's terrible. Like this is horrible.

Presenter3:19

Because he just you couldn't get him to do whatever.

Romesh Ranganathan3:21

I read all the stuff, Lauren, about like you give them choices and you let them have agency in their decision. And I'd say to my eldest son, you can have this or you can have this, and this is the reason why we think you should have this. And you go, I think I'm going to have this, Daddy. And you go, Great. I can't believe people think parenting's hard. And then we had our second kid. It could have this, it could have this. These are the tortures. I don't want either. I want this. And you go, well, we don't have this, but that's what I want. I hate you. So I talked about that on stage. And people come up to me and go, Listen, mate, like, I think this, but I didn't realize you were allowed to say it out loud. You know, and so I'm hoping that the audience knows that I love my children, but within that understanding, that solid context, it can be really annoying. This is really annoying, you know. So I talked about this in my last show about how I sort of regret doing that bit because people would come up to me at like Chesington and go, Is this the one?

Speaker 34:01

Context.

Presenter4:15

Oh, and then you go

Romesh Ranganathan4:15

And then you go, dude, you can't.

Presenter4:17

And has he seen it?

Romesh Ranganathan4:19

Yeah, he's seen he loves it's made him like a cult hero.

Presenter4:19

Middleson

Presenter4:23

With his friend.

Romesh Ranganathan4:23

With his friends, you know.

Presenter4:25

To be fair, from the character sketch that you gave, this was quite a romantic. It's a kid who knows who he is. Yeah, exactly. He's not going to have a problem.

Romesh Ranganathan4:29

Yeah, exactly. He's not going to have a problem. He's going to be a great adult, but just as a kid, yeah, he's a rock star.

Presenter4:34

Please

Presenter4:35

Talking of your family, that they often feature in your comedy. So obviously, you know, you talk about your family, your wife and three sons on stage, your mum, Shanty, she's appeared with you on T V and your brother's comic too.

Presenter4:47

You've described comedy as the family's love language. Tell me more about that.

Romesh Ranganathan4:52

What we do have in common is just this kind of dark mickey taking out of everything. There is no safe space, whatever, however sad something is, let's find the funny in it.

Presenter5:02

Obviously, we know you love music, you know, two shows on radio too, to prove it. How has it been choosing your discs?

Romesh Ranganathan5:09

It's been tricky. My mum and to a lesser degree my dad are really into music and they always had parties and music was always playing in our house. And then I discovered hip-hop. But my one thing I would say is that I did such a deep dive into hip-hop that there are big gaps in my musical knowledge elsewhere. I think I was so... There was a point in my life where I think for about three years I only listened to stuff that was made on one street in New York. You know, like I really like got so niche with, you know, I'm really into this specific type of hip-hop. I don't want to hear anything else. What's that? It's got a snare. No, thank you. That's commercial.

Presenter5:35

You know that I'm

Romesh Ranganathan5:47

Sell out.

Presenter5:47

You know,

Presenter5:49

Secondly.

Presenter5:50

So what's your first disc romage?

Romesh Ranganathan5:52

It's Lose Yourself, M and M. The song is he's about to well, he doesn't actually get specific about it, but in context of the film that it's it's soundtracking, A Mar, yeah, he is about to inv get involved in a rap battle.

Presenter6:01

Yeah.

Presenter6:05

You've taken part in rap battles in the past.

Romesh Ranganathan6:07

Yeah, it was bad, Lauren.

Romesh Ranganathan6:09

and it was at the Scala in King's Cross.

Romesh Ranganathan6:12

I think I got to the penultimate round of the battle. I can tell you the lyric.

Presenter6:16

Oh yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan6:17

That led to my immediate exit from the competition.

Romesh Ranganathan6:21

This is Ranger, rocking at the scala, You can't handle the heat of my chicken teaka masala.

Romesh Ranganathan6:29

So anyway, I lost immediately I was asked to leave not asked to leave, you know, I was out of the composition and as I was leaving it was like I could I imagined it like a movie like a there'd be a camera on you know when you have a they've strapped a camera to the actor's head and it's facing down at them Yeah, and they're just like walking through like really morose. That's how it felt. I'm walking through the crowd and they were all shouting that's pathetic chika tikka masala. That's a really mild curry. You know all that kind of stuff. And then I decided I'm never going to do it again.

Speaker 46:40

Yeah.

Speaker 46:44

Yeah.

Presenter6:45

Uh

Presenter6:57

I think we should probably hear a professional now.

Speaker 46:59

He's dope, he knows that but he's pro. He's so stagnant, he knows when he goes back to this mobile home. That's when it's back to the lab again, yo. This old rhapsody better go capture this moment and hope it don't give it. Lose yourself in the music, the moment you own it, you better never let it go. You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow. Cause opportunity grows once in a lifetime, you better lose its health in the music. The moment you own it, you better never let it go. You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow. Cause opportunity

Presenter7:31

M and M and lose yourself. So Romesh Ranganathan, let's go back to the beginning. You were born in Crawley, West Sussex, in nineteen seventy eight. Now your given name is actually Jonathan Romesh Ranganathan. Has anybody ever called you that?

Romesh Ranganathan7:44

Everybody called me Romesh, that was my name. But every time a teacher would say the first register of the year, their first one, I'd have to go actually, can you call me Romesh?

Presenter7:54

Was that how you found out at school?

Romesh Ranganathan7:56

Yes, but the whole idea that you would change your name to make people in Britain feel more comfortable with it that f feels so ridiculous when you say it now. But my parents are obviously in a position then when they'd just come over to England from Sri Lanka and they were like, We're bringing up kids over here. How do we make it easier for them?

Presenter8:15

So your parents originally from Sri Lanka, and they were Tamil. They came to the UK a few years before you were born. What was life like for Tamil people in Sri Lanka in the run up to them leaving?

Romesh Ranganathan8:27

There's lots of horrible stories.

Romesh Ranganathan8:29

of mistreatment of members of my family purely because of a Tamil. My dad's eldest brother was taken away by soldiers and we never saw him again. My auntie, my dad's sister's husband was shot dead on his doorstep by soldiers. I feel like that was all simmering, but my dad came over to England

Romesh Ranganathan8:47

To finish his accountancy qualifications. And partly that I think it was a bit of push and a bit of pull in terms of what brought him over here.

Presenter8:54

And as you mentioned, your dad Ranga was an accountant. You've described him as a Sri Lankan Dell boy. Did he have the charm?

Romesh Ranganathan9:01

Yeah, my dad was a bit of a tornado in terms of I think he came over to England and like he'd been so used to the Sri Lankan way of life. I think it's almost like he was like a kid in a candy store, you know, like it was people were drinking and going out and he just threw himself into British life wholly and completely and there's a strong argument he should have implemented more boundaries than he did.

Romesh Ranganathan9:30

Yeah.

Presenter9:30

So what did he impress? He was the life and soul of the party.

Romesh Ranganathan9:33

He was the life and soul of the party, incredibly flirty.

Presenter9:36

Difficult to be married to a tornado. Absolutely. So, your mum, Shanty, she's got a great sense of humor herself. But tell me more about her. What was she doing?

Romesh Ranganathan9:38

Absolutely.

Romesh Ranganathan9:42

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan9:44

Well, if you think about it from my mum's point of view, she was 19, grew up in Sri Lanka, fairly strict upbringing, marries my dad, ends up being brought over to a new country. And the difference between her experience and my dad's experience is that my dad's going off to work and so you're immediately thrust into social connections and situations and you're making friends just by dint of that's your lifestyle. My mum is at home and she's obviously, you know, she's going to the shops and doing whatever. But I sort of think about it now and I think there's a 19-year-old girl that had kids in a foreign country. I don't say this lightly. My mum is like one of my heroes in terms of I feel like if I was to say things that I in my life that I regret, I think it's not having enough empathy or understanding of her situation.

Presenter10:37

And at first you were in your early years life was pretty good, I think, for the family. Tell tell me a bit about that. What do you remember about that period?

Romesh Ranganathan10:44

We were living in quite a nice little neighbourhood in Crawley. The way I think of it is like perfect start. The house looks nice, all the neighbours, everyone waves as they're heading off to work.

Presenter10:53

A private school?

Romesh Ranganathan10:54

Private school. So I started off at a private school and then even though my parents are well off, they needed me to get a scholarship to get the fees down in order to afford me going to secondary. It's difficult, isn't it? When people go to another country to set up a life for themselves, I feel personally, they get very caught up in what the external trappings of success look like. You have to have a nice car, you have to have a nice house, you have to wear these.

Presenter11:24

Because it demonstrates that it was all worth it.

Romesh Ranganathan11:26

Exactly. And I think my parents got caught up in that quite heavily.

Presenter11:31

It's time for your second disc. What are we gonna hear?

Romesh Ranganathan11:34

Yeah, this is Let's Hear It for the Boy Denise Williams. Now when I was growing up my mum and dad used to have parties there would there was lots of Sri Lankan community in and around us and from London actually and they'd all be like music like this playing and then what would happen was that my dad would get increasingly drunk and then he would start to want to sing songs from Sri Lanka.

Romesh Ranganathan11:59

He would get like pans from the kitchen and he would like turn them upside down.

Romesh Ranganathan12:04

and start playing them like drums while singing songs that but I didn't I couldn't really discern any words, so it's it'd be like banging on the like pans and going, Ah na da da and ja la da na na

Presenter12:15

Uh

Romesh Ranganathan12:16

And then they'd all be reaching their like all of his motors

Presenter12:18

The the reaching out gesture that you're doing now is qu seems to be quite key to the performance.

Romesh Ranganathan12:23

This is one of those songs that I feel there's a joy in it. I just love the sound of it. With songs like this, you listen to them loads and loads because you want that hit and then it goes away for a bit and then you go, I haven't listened to that song for a while. And you put it on and it comes back all over again.

Speaker 412:40

My baby, he don't talk sweet, he ain't got much to say

Speaker 412:47

But he loves me, loves me, loves me. I know that he loves me anyway.

Speaker 412:55

And maybe you don't dress fine, but I don't really mind.

Speaker 413:03

Cause every time he pulls me in, I just want a chin

Speaker 413:07

Here for the boy!

Presenter13:13

Denise Williams and let's hear it for the boy. Romesh Ranga Nathan, family life changed dramatically when you were 12, I think. What happened?

Romesh Ranganathan13:23

My dad had fallen into financial trouble. What it turns out is that he'd lost his job and he was trying to make money in his sort of Sri Lankan Delboy way and it wasn't working out and couldn't keep up the mortgage repayments on their house. And they couldn't, obviously they couldn't afford, even with like my scholarship, they still couldn't afford the fees at the school I was going to. And one morning, my mum said to me, can you and your brother stay here? I'm going out. She looked upset, but I didn't know why and she wasn't letting on why. Anyway, what turns out is that she'd found out that my dad

Presenter13:53

Anyway

Romesh Ranganathan13:57

Was seeing another woman and was regularly seeing another woman, actually had was intending on like living with this woman, but but my mum had found out now this is this is bad and I will say my mum does regret doing this, but this is what happened. My mum said to me, I've not heard from your dad. If I take you to this woman's house, can you please ask her where you're dad? I don't want to talk to her, but can you ask her where your dad is? So we knock on the door. She answers, I said, where's my dad? We haven't seen him. And she tells us that my dad had been arrested three days previously and he had been involved in some sort of fraud case. I don't know why we'd not heard, why he'd not got in touch, but.

Romesh Ranganathan14:42

This lady knew and we didn't know.

Presenter14:44

Did he go to prison?

Romesh Ranganathan14:45

He ended up going to prison for two years, or just under two years. You know, I remember my dad being convicted and going to prison the day before my birthday. And I think it's my fifteenth I think it's my fifteenth birthday. And so

Presenter14:58

I think it's my fifteenth. I think it's my fifteenth.

Romesh Ranganathan15:01

My friends were having like a party for me, but I didn't tell them. You did cancel the party? No, I just went and pretended that wasn't going'cause I guess because like um

Presenter15:05

Did you cancel the party?

Romesh Ranganathan15:10

You want some normalcy. You know, i i i everything is like falling to bits at home.'Cause we're for a while we moved out of that house and then we were in a we were in a the council gave us like a room in a a bed and breakfast for a while.

Presenter15:22

So this is with you, your mum and your brother?

Romesh Ranganathan15:24

Yeah, that that was all of us in in one room for like uh a while.

Presenter15:30

And you kept that secret from your friends.

Romesh Ranganathan15:31

We kept that secret. I remember once, a a f friend's mum in s I was trying to make my own way home because I didn't want anybody to know.

Presenter15:40

Where I was

Romesh Ranganathan15:40

Where I was living. So I was like my mate's mum said, I'm going to drop you home. So I just picked a house a couple of doors down from the bed and breakfast and got her to drop me off there. And she was like waiting for me to go to the house.

Presenter15:52

So we had to do the walk up the path.

Romesh Ranganathan15:56

I think I snuck down the sl like the side alley of this like st so that they would go.

Presenter16:01

This is obviously when you're that age, your entire world is your family, school and your home and all those things had changed for you.

Romesh Ranganathan16:12

Yeah.

Presenter16:12

What do you remember of your feelings about all that?

Romesh Ranganathan16:15

Um, it was a really good indication of the difference between how my brother and I processed stuff, because my brother became very angry. I, on the other hand, pushed it deep, deep inside and became very, very quiet.

Presenter16:25

What about you?

Romesh Ranganathan16:31

I think that the mental toll of that on my brother, me and my mum.

Romesh Ranganathan16:39

In a my mum.

Romesh Ranganathan16:41

Was the saddest I've ever seen her and I never want to see her that sad again.

Presenter16:43

And

Romesh Ranganathan16:46

I hur heard her crying so much, you know, and and it was so so horrible. And then she found a way to to look after us and and do the things she had to do in those circumstances.

Presenter16:58

She had to start because you mentioned earlier, you know, she was at home looking after you too. Did she get a job? Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan17:05

Yeah, so she got a job as a cleaner, like because we live near this industrial estate, so she got a job as a cleaner. And on top of that, she was dealing with two teenage boys who were horrendous and did all of the things that teenage boys do, which is be incredibly ungrateful for any effort that's been expended on them whatsoever. Blame the person that's there rather than the person that isn't for what's going on. All of those things. She had to put up with all of that.

Presenter17:25

Yeah.

Presenter17:29

Shanty, what a queen.

Romesh Ranganathan17:29

Mm-hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan17:30

I know, absolutely.

Presenter17:33

I think we should have some more music, Romesh. Your third choice today. What are we going to hear next?

Romesh Ranganathan17:38

Well, this is Huey Lewis and the News, The Power of Love. It it makes me feel better. I so I'm with an agency off the curb. They they booked me for a gig in Essex, Hornchurch actually, and it was the first time I'd done twenty minutes. I was incredibly nervous.

Romesh Ranganathan17:57

It was at this theatre, but it wasn't in the theatre. It was in the foyer of the theatre. They put chairs in the foyer. So I thought, what a funny thing it would be to just comment on the fact we're in the foyer, we're not even in the theatre. I thought it was a great opener. And I was very excited. Something along the lines of I was very excited about coming to this theatre. I didn't realise they were just going to stick us in the foyer. Anyway, it turns out the people of Hornchurch love that foyer, right? That got nothing. I then proceeded to play to silence. To the point where I said, thank you, I've been Ramashrang and Nathan. I don't remember them applauding.

Romesh Ranganathan18:26

I I'm pretty sure in my mind in my memory it's you could hear the mic click into the stand. Total silence. I walk off. One of the other comics goes, How do you think that went? That's a kiss of death. When another comedian says to you, How do you think that went? I can tell you badly.

Presenter18:32

Total silence.

Romesh Ranganathan18:43

Anyway, I get into the car, in my head, I'm thinking, that's it.

Presenter18:49

It's over.

Romesh Ranganathan18:49

It's over. I'm done.

Romesh Ranganathan18:51

How do I make myself feel better? I put on Power of Love by Huey Lewis in the news. I get to the end of the song, I still feel a bit sad, so I put it back to the beginning, I listen to it again. Long story long, I listen to that song over and over again for an hour and 45 minutes.

Speaker 419:09

It's a curious thing.

Speaker 419:12

Make a one man weep, make another man sing.

Speaker 419:16

Said your hawk to a little white dove.

Speaker 419:20

But I'm gonna feed it

Speaker 419:23

Cover a Love!

Speaker 419:30

Rich like cream Stronger and harder than a bad girl's dream

Speaker 419:36

Make a better one good

Presenter19:38

Huey Lewis in the News and The Power of Love.

Presenter19:43

Romesh Ranganathan, your dad was released from prison and after that he came back to the family. How did his return affect things and how did you feel about it?

Romesh Ranganathan19:53

It was uh tricky because

Romesh Ranganathan19:56

He'd been away for a bit. My mum would be looking after us, and also now he's trying to come back and be dad. And how did that go? Well, you know, I had one of my worst ever conversations I've ever had. I say conversation, it was a monologue for me, but basically, I was at university. And I come home for the weekend. So, obviously, your parents are excited to see you, and then gone out with friends from back home and then not said when I'm going to be back, and got back quite late. And then I walked in, and my dad said, You need to tell us when you're going to come back. And then I turned around and delivered.

Presenter20:02

How did that go?

Romesh Ranganathan20:32

a m monologue at my father.

Romesh Ranganathan20:35

Basically it started with something along the lines of you have got some nerve telling me what I need to do in this house and then just went into one about what I thought about his behaviour, how I thought about how he treated mum, how I think about how he treated us, how he thinks he can just waltz back into the house and suddenly he's going to be back to normal. Proper, proper, disrespectful rant.

Romesh Ranganathan20:58

And we never spoke about it again.

Presenter21:00

Did you regret saying it?

Romesh Ranganathan21:02

Um I regret saying it in the way that I did. I think that I I can't imagine if one of my kids turned around to me and said those things that I said to my dad, I think it would create a scar that I would never that would never heal for me.

Presenter21:17

But then there's also isn't there

Presenter21:19

For being the kid who wasn't expressing how angry they'd been when your dad left.

Presenter21:24

Who'd kept it all in? Yeah. In a way, your parents might have been relieved to see you say it all at last.

Romesh Ranganathan21:26

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan21:30

Yes, I agree with I totally agree with you. But the the thing is, is like my on my dad's 60th birthday, by that time our relationship had really kind of improved. You know, I'd had kids at that point and I I saw the way that my dad was being with my children and I was like, this is like I think I've ever seen this side of my dad and we're in a really good place. And I wrote in my card.

Romesh Ranganathan21:52

I really feel lucky to have a dad like you. Thank you so much for being such a great dad.

Romesh Ranganathan21:59

And he looked emotional and he said to me, do you really think that about me? That made me feel incredibly sad because then I thought, I think that my dad, in between me saying what I said to him that night and him opening that card, I think he's thought that I think he's not a good dad. And that isn't what I thought about him. The case is I think you're flawed. as we all are and I think you made some errors but you're a great guy and I love you and like my memory of my dad is of like as I said a taunt a flawed tornado

Presenter22:35

And he was so supportive of you in your stand up. I mean, he would come to all the gigs, he would often put them on when he he owned a pub for a bit and he he would let you put gigs on in the pub.

Romesh Ranganathan22:44

And

Romesh Ranganathan22:46

He was amazing. He'd come to every one of my gigs and he would sit at the back with a big like picture of lager and just watch and give me honest feedback afterwards.

Presenter22:55

He died in 2011. So he saw the beginning of your stand-up career, but not the take-off. He was there for the failure.

Romesh Ranganathan23:02

He was there for the failure.

Romesh Ranganathan23:06

He was there for the bit where nobody thought it was gonna work.

Presenter23:08

Accept him.

Romesh Ranganathan23:09

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Presenter23:10

So what do you think you would have been proudest of of all the things that you've achieved since?

Romesh Ranganathan23:15

I think he probably would have been the proudest of doing stuff with mum.

Romesh Ranganathan23:21

If w from our point of view as a family, we were so struggling financially and we didn't know w what was going on and to then think that now my mum has kind of become a s a a sort of celebrity in a cult comedy heroine. Yeah, basically, one of the safest hands in British comedy.

Presenter23:33

Cult comedy heroine.

Romesh Ranganathan23:38

I think he would have been really, really pro I think he would have been annoyed that it wasn't him, to to be honest with you.

Presenter23:43

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan23:43

But I think you'd have been proud, yeah.

Presenter23:46

Ramesh, let's have some more music. Your fourth choice to do.

Romesh Ranganathan23:49

My fourth choice is by Kanye West. This song is Through the Wire. You know, his recent behaviour has led to, you know, I am no longer, I've disavowed myself of his work. But at the time when this came out, the song is, he got into a car accident and his jaw is wide shut. All of the vocals on this song are him rapping with his jaw wide shut. He...

Romesh Ranganathan24:17

is reflecting on the fact that he came so close to dying and now he's come you know he's he's gonna try and make it and it was like a breakout song for him

Romesh Ranganathan24:26

And I remember

Romesh Ranganathan24:28

I was about to do this competition, Leicester Mercury Comedian of the Year. And when I was about to go and do the gig, I was done with comedy. I was like, I'm not making any money from this. We're struggling. So I phoned Lisa and I said, Lisa, I'm going to Leicester to do this competition. I don't know why.

Romesh Ranganathan24:46

I'm going to go back to teaching. She said to me, Rom, go and do the competition, then come back and we'll have a talk about it. And I went to do the competition and I won the competition. And that is my through the wire moment. Unfortunately, it's not that cool to do a song where you go, I did the Lesser Mercury competition. I thought I wasn't going to win it, but I did. You know, that's not, nobody wants to hear that tune. So let's hear this one instead.

Speaker 425:03

Sit down.

Speaker 425:11

Yo Chi, they can't stop me from rapping canning.

Speaker 425:15

Cheney hot.

Speaker 425:19

I spit into the wire, you may

Speaker 425:24

Too much stuff on my heart right now, man.

Speaker 425:27

I'd gladly risk it all right now.

Speaker 425:32

It's a life or death situation man. Y'all don't really understand how I feel right now man. It's your boy Kanye Cheddar.

Speaker 425:39

Chateau, what's going on?

Presenter25:41

Kanye West and Through the Wire. So Romesh Ranga Nathan, you have been very honest about problems that you've had with mental health over the years. When did you first realize that actually you were struggling a bit?

Romesh Ranganathan25:55

When I was coming up to like doing my A levels, I wasn't in a headspace doing my A levels and I wasn't going to get the results I wanted. And I drafted my suicide note. I was like, I don't want to be here any like, you know, I don't want to be here anymore. I was just like, I used to think about how I'm going to do it.

Romesh Ranganathan26:18

I went through a I've been through in my life a number of periods of suicide ideation which is where I'm fantasizing about it and I want to do it and every and the best way of describing it is for me personally is that when I thought about it I thought about it in the same way that you might think about going on holiday I'd be like that'd be so good I won't feel like this anymore and other people it would be better for other people you know like I just really would deep fantasize about about it and

Presenter26:29

I'm

Presenter26:45

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan26:53

As I speak to you now, I feel like I'm probably... This is running close to one of the best places I've ever been in my life mentally. And...

Romesh Ranganathan27:05

I think recognizing is half the battle. You know, so sometimes I just go through a dark period and I know that I've got to do something about it. But one of the things I've noticed is when it comes to mental health, you do stuff that works, right? And it's proven to work for you personally. And then for some reason, you just stop doing it. Like you just go, oh, it's really good if I spend some time reflecting or if I run or if I do a bit of reading on this or if I do some breathing exercise, that makes me feel better. Oh, I've done that every day for a week and I'm really feeling better. Shall I just stop? Yeah. And then shall I.

Presenter27:07

Mm-hmm.

Presenter27:31

I feel great. Yeah, I wasn't sure.

Presenter27:45

Shall I?

Romesh Ranganathan27:46

A few weeks later, wonder why I feel much worse than I did. Yeah, I think I'll do that.

Presenter27:50

Shall I look at the news on my phone for an hour?

Romesh Ranganathan27:53

Yeah, let's do that. Let's doom scroll before sleep.

Presenter27:54

Mess

Presenter27:58

Do you ever talk about mental health in your act?

Romesh Ranganathan28:01

Yeah, there is nothing I won't talk about on stage. I talk about admitting that I've thought about taking my own life publicly and how my friends reacted to that for the first time and how men react to their friends showing emotion. You know, that's kind of what the bit's about. And you've got to be really careful because it's triggering. The way

Romesh Ranganathan28:23

That I try and tackle that is to talk about it. I'm trying to normalize feeling like that. And not that it is normal, but I'm trying to destigmatize it.

Presenter28:32

To make the conversation normal.

Romesh Ranganathan28:33

To make the conversation normal, exactly. And so

Presenter28:35

And so

Romesh Ranganathan28:36

You would talk about physical illness openly. You know, ideally you would talk about that openly and you'd express all those things. So that's what I'm trying to do with this. But you do also have to be mindful of the fact that people may have been affected by that. And then if I suddenly say I had thoughts about taking my own life and somebody's lost someone through that or they've had those moments themselves, you have to be sensitive to that. And you don't always get it right, but I think the rewards outweigh the risks.

Presenter28:53

Or

Presenter29:02

Romesh, let's have some more music. It's your fifth choice. What are we going to hear next and why?

Romesh Ranganathan29:07

I am yet.

Romesh Ranganathan29:10

To do anything stand-up wise, that I'm truly proud of, right? In terms of, I don't think my comedy is good enough yet. Every bit of stand-up I've ever done, there's something not quite right about it, is how I feel. I'm really happy with what the comedy I've done, but every show I can tell you is not, it's not the show. I've not done the show yet. But what I think the moment will look like.

Romesh Ranganathan29:36

is one day I'm going to do a show where essentially I get metaphorically naked on stage and say to the audience, here I am, right? And I haven't done it yet. Somebody who I think does that brilliantly is Sizza and that is my next disc. What makes her unbelievable is her ability to take her insecurities, her mental fragilities, her thoughts on life, her thoughts on relationships, her thoughts about herself and turn those into just beautiful, beautiful poetry. And she does it consistently and there are some people in this world who I think are scarily talented and I think she's one of them.

Presenter29:47

Okay.

Speaker 430:24

Run fast from a day job, running fast from the way it was. Jump quick to a great check, running back to the strip club. I'm never going back, never going back. No, you can't make me. Never going back, never going back. They never take me. I fit enough of petty dudes. I put enough of shit noons. I had a thing for dirty shoes. Since I was ten, love dirty men are like

Romesh Ranganathan30:38

Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 430:50

Oh

Presenter30:52

Scissor and broken clocks. Romesh Ranganathan, after you got through your A levels and went to university, you became a maths teacher at your old school in Crawley. What did you learn about yourself while you were in the classroom?

Romesh Ranganathan31:05

There wasn't a single day of that job.

Romesh Ranganathan31:07

That I didn't feel completely fulfilled. I felt very stressed. It's the most stressed I've ever been in my life, actually. There's not been a single day of my comedy career that's even come close to the stress that I felt as a teacher. I cannot speak highly enough of teachers and teaching and how much I loved that job. I'll give you one example. I went to teach at a school that had just come out of special measures, and it was a really tough school. A lot of the kids had difficult backgrounds, and I was teaching a bottom set.

Romesh Ranganathan31:38

Year nine, and I went in to teach my first lesson with them. I just started at the school, and they were throwing stuff around, they were like just shouting, screaming, and it took me half an hour to get them sat down. And the lesson was an hour. And I looked at like their fathers, and they were just like really troubled kids, right? And a lot of them were struggling at home. Why should they listen to a maths teacher? I get it.

Romesh Ranganathan32:04

And I every lesson I just like worked and worked and worked at like trying to get on side with them and like get them to enjoy the lessons and da da da. Anyway, one lesson, one day I walked in to start the lesson and they were sat with their books ready to start the lesson and that

Presenter32:21

Oh.

Romesh Ranganathan32:23

It's probably the proudest I've ever been of anything I've ever done, including comedy and anything.

Presenter32:29

It's interesting because this sounds like a really fruitful time for you because you start teaching, you meet Lisa through teaching, your wife, and you also start doing open mic comedy gigs in your spare time.

Presenter32:43

How much did you enjoy your early performances and what kind of reaction were you getting from audiences?

Romesh Ranganathan32:49

It's tricky because when you start doing stand up, you're so full of adrenaline from just being on stage with a microphone that you think it's going great, but it isn't.

Presenter33:02

So you're enjoying it.

Romesh Ranganathan33:04

Yeah. You're talking and like any laugh you get is amazing. But what happens is as you do stand-up, your expectations are constantly being recalibrated. So, you know, what I think, well, back then I would have thought would be a really good gig. If I had that gig now, I'd probably quit. But Lisa used to come and watch me a lot. And she was a drama teacher. And frequently, my experience would be I'd have a, she'd come and watch me do a gig at some open mic gig.

Presenter33:05

I

Presenter33:12

Hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan33:29

I'd think that I was the second coming. Well, you know, I'd have a good gig. So that's an exaggeration. I think it was the second coming, but I'd I think I have a good gig. And I'd come off stage and she'd go, You rushed that bit and you kept touching your glasses and you're breathing quite heavily during one of the routines.

Speaker 333:43

Yeah.

Presenter33:43

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan33:44

And I should

Romesh Ranganathan33:46

And she was sort of giving me very

Presenter33:47

Is that really useful for you?

Romesh Ranganathan33:48

Really useful, like very, very like.

Presenter33:51

Granular.

Romesh Ranganathan33:51

Yes.

Presenter33:54

I love that.

Romesh Ranganathan33:56

But I was buzzing. I was like loving doing stand-up and at that time I didn't realize that comedians use material more than once.

Presenter34:02

So you were writing a new show every time you checked it out.

Romesh Ranganathan34:03

Every time I did a gig, I was writing brand new material.

Presenter34:06

Oh man.

Romesh Ranganathan34:07

And then it only occurred to me, it was told to me by somebody like you'd see all the same comics on the open mic circuit, and this guy had three gigs of me in a week. And he did the same set three times, and I did a completely different set that I'd written like that day. I was a teacher as well, but I don't know where I was finding the time to do this, but that's what I was doing. And he comes to goes, What are you doing?

Romesh Ranganathan34:30

And I said, What do you mean? He goes, You're writing new material every gig. I said, Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan34:34

And he goes, people don't do that. You know, you hone your material. And I was like, oh.

Presenter34:38

So your dad was at your gigs, but your pupils also came to your gigs sometimes. What was that like for you in the early days?

Romesh Ranganathan34:43

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan34:45

Bad. I once told a really dirty joke on stage, didn't realise that there were people from the school there, and then that joke was repeated back to me in a maths lesson.

Presenter34:58

Was that your first inkling that these were going to be divergent paths?

Romesh Ranganathan35:03

That's when I thought these things might not be compatible. This is why Mickey Flanagan doesn't also teach biology.

Presenter35:11

Romesh, it's time for your next piece of music, your sixth choice today. What are you taking to the island next?

Romesh Ranganathan35:15

A song that we played at our wedding and it is Back at One Brian McKnight. It has a very personal resonance because it's one of the first kind of love songs that Lisa and I kind of heard together. But what I would say is it is very saccharine. No, listen, I do love this song.

Romesh Ranganathan35:37

It's that is he's in that tradition of American RB singers whose vocals are just impeccable. And look, the truth is, I think the song's great, but I'm just slightly embarrassed that I've chosen it, okay?

Speaker 435:48

Undeniable that we should be together

Speaker 435:55

Unbelievable how I used to say that I'd fall never

Speaker 436:02

Basis need to know if you don't know just how I feel

Speaker 436:09

And let me show you now that I'm for real.

Speaker 436:16

Careful.

Presenter36:18

Brian McKnight and Back at One. I think that revealed your romantic side, Romesh. Thank you. I liked it.

Romesh Ranganathan36:22

Thank you. Thanks very much. But it's not a side I've revealed before.

Presenter36:26

Well, thank you very much for sharing that with us.

Romesh Ranganathan36:27

Listen, happy to give in exclusive.

Presenter36:31

So Romesh, um, was it scary to to give up teaching?

Romesh Ranganathan36:37

Yeah, but to be honest with you, I was very excited by the idea of somebody going to what do you do for a living? And then I said, I'm a comedian.

Presenter36:43

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan36:44

That was so exciting that it kind of outweighed my fears.

Presenter36:48

But Lisa, by the sounds of it, you know, when you were talking about going to the Leicester Mercury competition.

Presenter36:54

She was all supportive.

Romesh Ranganathan36:56

Yeah, incredibly supportive. And then, on top of that, in a typical sort of bloke way, I would then moan about comedy to her. Like, you know, and then go, oh, the gig didn't go well. I mean, like.

Romesh Ranganathan37:08

Yeah.

Presenter37:08

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan37:08

It's so

Presenter37:09

And she's got two tiny children.

Romesh Ranganathan37:10

Two children. We're not making any money. Then I come home and go, they didn't laugh the way that I wanted them to tonight. You know how I've thrown all of our ongoing livelihood under the bus? Well, it's not working out the way I hoped it was going to. Could you be a little bit more supportive, please? So it was really, she had to put up with a lot. But I've asked her exactly why she was so supportive. And I think part of it is just she's just fundamentally, at her core, a wonderful human. But she said, she just said there was something, she goes, I just knew you were going to be a comedian. She said, I don't know what it is. I just thought Romesh is going to make it as a comic. She said, I just didn't have any doubt.

Presenter37:38

Meth.

Presenter37:49

You know, in the early days you had played some tough crowds. You said that you have, you know, experienced racism from audiences on stage.

Romesh Ranganathan37:57

Yeah.

Presenter37:57

Yeah. What what happened and and how did you deal with it?

Romesh Ranganathan38:00

I remember once walking out on stage, this is before I had any kind of profile, somebody shouted terrorist before I got the b picked up the microphone. Now ordinarily, if somebody said that to me in the middle of the set,

Romesh Ranganathan38:12

The audience are already on my side because they've heard me tell a few jokes, right? And so now I can tackle this guy. As it is, I've walked out on stage, the guy said this, and the audience don't know who I have not had any time to form an opinion of me. If the first thing I do is to then eviscerate this man, my gig's over, really. So, what I did was.

Presenter38:15

That's right.

Romesh Ranganathan38:36

Is I gambled that he was going to say something else. So I started my set, and all I thought was, if you say, please say something else, because once I've told a few jokes and the audience are on side and warmed up, then I can deal with you. And thankfully he did. And then I just went to town. I mean, that was the rest of my set. It was absolutely destroyed. Then I said, and by the way, I heard what you said, and that was it. You know what I mean?

Presenter38:59

Do you think attitudes have improved over the time that you've been working?

Romesh Ranganathan39:02

What I can say to you is that I am frequently disappointed by comments that are made to me on social media and that still continues to this day. So I'll give you an example. There was a bit of controversy about the England shirt and they changed the flag on the back of the collar and I did a joke video about how I hope they keep arguing about it because it just delays me having to buy the shirts for my kids because they're so expensive. It's just like a really stupid simple thing. And then I just got so much abuse and people going, of course you don't care. You're not English. You're not even supposed to be here. And I thought to myself.

Romesh Ranganathan39:38

I'd forgotten that there are people that feel like that about me.

Presenter39:41

How do you deal with that?

Romesh Ranganathan39:43

I don't think reacting aggressively to that is going to be helpful. Really, in an ideal world, you'd have you'd have a chat with those people to go, why do you feel like that? and try and broach it. I haven't got time to do that. So you just have to live with it.

Presenter39:55

Romesh, it's time for some more music. Your seventh choice, please.

Romesh Ranganathan39:58

My seventh choice is one of the greatest to ever do it, Stevie Wonder. If Stevie Wonder was to sing my choices on a food delivery app, I would listen to that all day, every day. But the problem that I now have with Stevie Wonder is that when Lisa went into labor with our first son, I had Stevie Wonder on in the car as I drove her to the hospital.

Presenter40:24

Oh, okay.

Romesh Ranganathan40:25

Do you see the problem?

Presenter40:26

Yeah, so she can't have it on hold.

Presenter40:30

So you literally need to be on a desert island to correct.

Romesh Ranganathan40:33

Correct. Yes. Yeah, and even then, it'll probably trigger some sort of contraction.

Presenter40:34

Yeah, I need to.

Romesh Ranganathan40:39

From way over wherever she is, however far she is from the island. So anyway, that's my choice. Stevie Wonder, I wish.

Speaker 440:48

Little nappy hit it all

Speaker 440:55

Then the only worry was for Christmas what would be my dog?

Speaker 441:04

Even though we sometimes would not get a pay

Speaker 441:08

We were happy with

Presenter41:13

Sneaking out

Presenter41:15

Stevie Wonder and I Wish. So, Romesh Ranganathan, we've talked a lot about the

Presenter41:21

Struggles that you went through early in your comedy career. Is there a moment, a turning point, when you realized that it was all starting to go right?

Romesh Ranganathan41:30

As soon as I was regularly paying for the big shop with comedy, it felt amazing and I thought this is probably going to be alright. And then ever since then, everything else has been an incredible bonus, to be honest with you. I have no you know, I know that people sort of say I'm busy and I'm always like trying to work and stuff. There is no strategy, there's no game plan, I have no end game, there's no vision board or anything like that. I just literally just doing whatever feels good.

Presenter41:56

You've joked in the past about the moment when your star starts to descend.

Romesh Ranganathan42:02

Yeah.

Presenter42:02

How would you feel about that if one day you weren't so busy?

Romesh Ranganathan42:06

I do feel like I'm sort of I'm sort of settling into winding things up. Like not winding things up, but I'm taking a step back. I want to be at home a bit more and

Presenter42:16

But a

Romesh Ranganathan42:17

By the way, this is not an announcement of retirement, but I do feel like relatively recently, this is quite fortuitous that we're talking at the time that we are because I have just hit this period of thinking, I am probably going to just be a bit more measured in what I do going forward. And I think I might take like a bigger break between bits. You know, I've told you I've not hit the thing yet. Maybe this next thing could be it, but it's not going to be it if I don't go off and just live life for a bit. Do you know what I mean? Just like allow those kind of things to happen. You know, a walk in the park could lead to my next stand-up idea.

Presenter42:45

Do you know what I mean? Just like a

Presenter42:52

It's filling up your reserves.

Romesh Ranganathan42:53

Exactly. That's exactly it. I need to fill up my reserves.

Presenter42:56

Ramesh, you are going to get plenty of time to think up your next comedy idea because we're about to cast you away to the desert island.

Romesh Ranganathan43:03

Okay.

Presenter43:03

So tell me how you feel about the prospect. Total isolation, completely stranded, fending for yourself.

Romesh Ranganathan43:09

Okay, there's two strands to this. One, I'm quite good at being on my own in terms of mentally. But in terms of actual survival, I reckon I've got about forty, forty-five minutes.

Presenter43:20

Minutes.

Romesh Ranganathan43:21

I just don't think I cling on to life very effectively. I don't think I'm good at being a person. You know how sometimes when people have survived something and they say, Do you know what? It's only down to their resilience that they're able to get through this and it's their desire to survive and wow, it's so amazing. I think.

Presenter43:34

Hands up.

Romesh Ranganathan43:41

Somebody's going to come across my body and they'll go, if you tried a bit harder, it would have been alright.

Romesh Ranganathan43:48

That's that's okay.

Presenter43:48

Okay.

Romesh Ranganathan43:49

That's where I'm at. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think it'd be like

Presenter43:51

Yeah.

Presenter43:52

So you're not going to be like instantly strategizing, okay, what have I got?

Romesh Ranganathan43:54

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan43:55

No, that that somebody will get they'll find me on the island and they'll go, Did he staff to the camera? No, he smashed his own head in with a coconut by accident.

Presenter43:56

Let's go to the T4.

Presenter44:01

Uh

Presenter44:04

Well, I hope you get to listen to your discs at least once before that kicks in. Probably about 45 minutes worth here. We've got one more before we cast you away.

Romesh Ranganathan44:11

Yeah.

Presenter44:11

Last choice today.

Romesh Ranganathan44:13

Many, many years ago, a friend of mine left a tape at my house.

Romesh Ranganathan44:19

And that tape was Public Enemy It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. And I put that tape on and the first song that came on is this song that's my final disc. And it's Bring the Noise. And Chuck D, who's the lead rapper of Public Enemy and the creator of Public Enemy, his voice is perfect for rapping. Just an authoritative tone.

Presenter44:40

Hmm.

Romesh Ranganathan44:44

Sits on the beat so beautifully. His politics, his social commentary, like such an intelligent, smart guy. I took the fact that he was in his 30s when he started doing it as like a bit of inspiration. You know, I'm a late star. He's the old statesman of hip-hop. Exactly. And then you throw into that mix flavor flave, wearing a top hat and a clock, just kind of being his hype man, probably the ultimate hype man in all of hip-hop.

Presenter44:55

Like a bit

Presenter44:58

The elder statesman of hip hop was that.

Romesh Ranganathan45:09

And so it would be, I couldn't go to the island. I'd refuse to go to the island. I'd say to Lauren, I'm not going unless you let me have this song, Public Enemy, Bring the Noise.

Speaker 445:15

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 445:20

How low can you go? Deathro? What a brother no once again. Back is the incredible. Rhyme animal, the incredible beast. Public enemy number one. Five both said freeze. And I got numb. Can I tell him never really never had a gun? But it's the wax that determined an ex-bun. Now they got me in the cell. Cause my records they sell. Cause a brother like me said, well, Sarah cause a prophet and I think you wanna listen to. But they can say to you, what you wanna do is follow for now. How do the people say? Make a miracle.

Presenter45:50

Public enemy and bring the noise. So, Ramesh Ranga Nathan, it's time to send you away to the island. I'm going to give you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one other book. What will that be?

Romesh Ranganathan46:01

The Life of Pie by Jan Martel. On the face of it the book is about a boy that gets trapped on a boat with a tiger, but I think it's a book about

Romesh Ranganathan46:11

Life itself is a book about philosophy, it's a book about religion. And then it's sort of it's kind of an open ending and it's open to your interpretation as to what actually happened that whole time. I found reading that book such a great experience that as soon as I finished reading it, I went straight to the front and started reading it again. Having said all of that, now as I'm saying it to you, it sounds like quite a bleak choice if you're on an island.

Presenter46:34

Desert island-wise, survival-wise. We're not looking for an open-ended.

Romesh Ranganathan46:35

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan46:37

Yeah.

Presenter46:40

Conclusion, it would be good to, yeah. I know, I think it's well, I suppose it's what is your island experience about?

Romesh Ranganathan46:42

Yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan46:47

Yeah, if it's about sort of

Romesh Ranganathan46:49

doing things that remind me of the bleakness of my isolation, then Life of Pie is the perfect choice.

Presenter46:56

You can also have a luxury item for pleasure or sensory stimulation. What's that going to be?

Romesh Ranganathan47:00

What's that going to be? Hear me out on this.

Presenter47:02

Okay.

Romesh Ranganathan47:03

It's a large, vacuum packed.

Romesh Ranganathan47:06

Hermetically sealed.

Romesh Ranganathan47:08

Container of my mum's aubergine curry.

Presenter47:11

Oh yeah.

Romesh Ranganathan47:13

I don't know if you can do this. I'd love it to be some sort of like bottomless brunch version of that, where it's like an unlimited supply.

Presenter47:14

Yes.

Presenter47:18

Like refills.

Romesh Ranganathan47:19

Yeah, because the idea of sort of reading life of Pi while I get to the bottom of that container is too much to think of.

Presenter47:24

Hmm.

Presenter47:26

You're not gonna last long anyway, so I reckon

Romesh Ranganathan47:27

No that's

Romesh Ranganathan47:29

He died. His feet were sticking out the top of the container to try to get out of the last bit of aubergine, and he suffocated. More ways to go.

Presenter47:36

More ways to go though.

Romesh Ranganathan47:38

But that would be it. I love my mum's aubergine curry. She's taught me how to make it. I've tried to make it since. I'm going to say this to you now. My mum, if you've ever asked my mum for a recipe for aubergine curry, any of her friends that might be listening to this, she hasn't told you the full recipe. She always keeps two ingredients back and then when you can't figure out why it doesn't taste like that, she'll tell you, I think I've just got magic in my hand. But it isn't that. She's left that two ingredients. She's told me what they are, but I still can't get it to taste the same as her.

Presenter47:40

Right.

Presenter47:44

Um

Presenter47:58

Didn't that

Presenter48:04

Okay, but we're gonna have her perfect Aubergine Curry.

Romesh Ranganathan48:07

Yes, please.

Presenter48:09

And finally, Romesh, which of the eight disks that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves first if you needed to?

Romesh Ranganathan48:17

I think it would have to be despite me complaining about it being too saccharine.

Romesh Ranganathan48:23

It's back at one Brian McKnight because it just reminds me of my wife so much.

Presenter48:27

Ramesh Ranganathan, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Romesh Ranganathan48:31

Thank you, Lauren.

Presenter48:52

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Romesh. I'm relieved that he'll enjoy some home cooking on the island. We've cast away many comics, including Daro Breen, Victoria Wood, Sarah Millikan, and Jennifer Saunders. The studio manager for today's programme was Bob Nettles. The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky. The production coordinator was Susie Roylands. The producer was Paula McGinley, and the editor was Mugabe Turia. Next time, my guest will be Professor Lucy Easthope, who advises on disaster recovery. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 349:48

I'm Annabel Dees, and from BBC Radio 4, this is Shadow World: The Smuggler.

Speaker 449:53

People coming to this country was making me successful.

Speaker 349:57

A year ago, I met a people smuggler, a British man who joined an international smuggling gang. I uncover his motivations and his methods.

Speaker 450:06

I'm telling you now how easy it is.

Speaker 350:08

and investigates whether his tactics are still possible. That does leave a really exploitable loophole for individuals who want to do harm. Shadow World, The Smuggler. Listen now on BBC Sounds.