Donna Ockenden

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:42

My castaway this week is the midwife Donna Ockenden. She has dedicated most of her working life to taking care of mothers and babies. For many years she did it on the wards, more recently by leading the investigation into what became at the time the biggest maternity scandal in NHS history.

Presenter0:59

Initially she was asked to look into twenty three cases. That soon became over a thousand. Her landmark report, the Ockenden Review, was published in twenty twenty two. It revealed a shocking, decades long legacy of failings at the Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust.

Presenter1:16

A toxic mix of poor practice and working culture, which contributed to the deaths of more than two hundred babies and nine mothers.

Presenter1:25

She's currently leading her next inquiry into maternity services at Nottingham University Hospital's NHS Trust, which will be published next year.

Presenter1:33

It's already the largest investigation into a single NHS service, hearing evidence from over two thousand families so far.

Presenter1:42

Her own story is one of resilience as well as care. She's a survivor of sexual abuse who experienced homelessness as a teenager while she was in sole charge of her three siblings. Training as a midwife helped her build a better life. Her promise to improve maternity care was made not long after she qualified, to a baby she still thinks about every day.

Presenter2:03

She says, I had a little chat with a baby who had died, and I said, Gina, no matter how long or short my career is in midwifery, every day I'm going to try and do something to make maternity care safer.

Presenter2:17

I call it my Gina promise. I've tried really, really hard to keep my Gina promise every day.

Presenter2:23

That is what's driven me. Donna Rockindon, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you.

Presenter2:28

Donna, we'll talk more about Gina later, but I do want to start with how you cope in moments like that. It was one of so many incredibly tough days in your career. How do you keep your own feelings in check when you're supporting families through the worst day of their lives?

Donna Ockenden2:45

There were times in Shrewsbury when I would make these visits to Shrewsbury on my own, and I would go back to my hotel bedroom and cry.

Donna Ockenden2:55

However, I suppose since then I've learnt that when I do those family visits, although I might be in the room with the family on my own, I always now have a member of my team with me. So

Speaker 13:07

So

Donna Ockenden3:08

At the end of the day

Donna Ockenden3:10

There is someone else to talk to other than the four walls in a hotel room.

Donna Ockenden3:15

And then I think it is about honouring the families and honouring the babies or sometimes the mothers who are not with them.

Donna Ockenden3:23

and realizing that I am there for them.

Donna Ockenden3:27

Not them there for me.

Donna Ockenden3:30

As a young midwife, I learned a lot from hospital chaplains. And one particular hospital chaplain in Portsmouth spoke to me as I started my career as a bereavement midwife. And he said to me, You know, you have to learn you cannot carry everyone's suitcase of grief around with you, because if you do that, Don, you're going to be weighed down by that suitcase.

Presenter3:52

It is important to say right at the beginning that most women who give birth will have a positive experience. Yes. But your latest investigation in Nottingham has already been in the press, and the shockwaves from the Ockenden report were huge. It dominated the news when it was published. How did you feel the night before it was released?

Presenter4:10

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden4:10

I just thought I have given this my all, my team have given this their all. Many of the parents came to the launch and were with me when we watched Sajid Javid make the announcement about accepting all of the findings, and there was a huge cheer in the room when he did that.

Donna Ockenden4:29

So I hope that those parents and those families feel that it was a job well done.

Presenter4:36

We're also here to listen to your music choices today, Donna. Tell us a little bit about your first disc. Why have you chosen it?

Donna Ockenden4:42

It's So we've only just begun by The Carpenters. It it represents the love that my parents had for each other at that time. So Dad has gone away to Das Island in the Middle East, an offshore island, thousands of miles away.

Donna Ockenden4:56

And there was a programme on the BBC, I believe it was called Family Favourites, and Mammy would write to the BBC in London.

Donna Ockenden5:04

asking the BBC to play a dedication, this song, for Daddy, and Daddy would write from Das Island asking them to play this song for Mammy and myself and my siblings.

Donna Ockenden5:19

and mum would be cooking Sunday lunch. It was always played on a Sunday.

Donna Ockenden5:23

And we'd all, as children, sit around what we call the radiogram, a big wooden box thing, and we'd listen to see if Daddy's dedication would be played. And of course it wasn't every week, but it was on several occasions over those years. And the BBC played from Clayton Thomas in Das Island or Patricia Thomas in Aberam and Aberdeen for her husband Clayton, who's now in the Middle East. And so I remember that very clearly as a little girl. It's a very important song.

Speaker 45:51

We've only just begun to live.

Speaker 45:59

White lace and promises

Speaker 46:05

A kiss for luck and we're on our way We only begun before the rising sun

Presenter6:21

The Carpenters, and we've only just begun. So, Donna Ockington, you were born in Aberdare, South Wales, in nineteen sixty six, and grew up in the nearby village of Aberramon. Your dad, Clayton, loved his home country. Apparently he would always toot his horn when he was crossing the border home. Tell me a little bit more about him. What kind of person was he?

Donna Ockenden6:40

My dad was a carpenter by trade. He wasn't formally educated really. He left school at fifteen. He wanted to be the best dad and provider he could. He worked long hours.

Presenter6:52

Mum and Dad were young when they had you you born the eldest of four.

Presenter6:56

And like you say, your dad had left school and was working as a carpenter. Money must have been very tight.

Donna Ockenden7:02

Yeah, money was very tight. I think when we talk about poverty in 1970s South Wales, it was real grinding poverty. My dad worked six days a week on a building site. You know, he had one pair of work trousers. And I clearly remember we didn't have central heating. And I clearly remember that if he came home with his work trousers wet and dirty, that was what he had to wear the next day.

Speaker 17:26

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden7:27

There was no way of drying them, there was no way of washing them, we could only wash them in a we had a twin tub washing machine on a Sunday morning.

Presenter7:33

What

Presenter7:34

Uh

Donna Ockenden7:34

And what what about your your

Presenter7:35

Mum, but you know, she mustn't have had much to look after you with for herself, for her own needs.

Donna Ockenden7:41

Absolutely. So I remember mum having one pair of shoes. They had holes in. She stuffed them with paper to try and keep them dry. And I will just say it, she had one pair of knickers that she used to wash out in the kitchen sink at night to try and keep some decency about her. We were very, very poor.

Presenter7:57

Uh

Donna Ockenden7:58

So you said

Presenter7:58

Your dad was absolutely determined that you would have the best that he could possibly provide. Was he able to shield you from how difficult things were?

Donna Ockenden8:08

Yes, to a degree. Basically we never went without. I wasn't aware at the time that my parents got themselves into a huge amount of debt. So for years I thought I had an auntie called Auntie Evelyn.

Donna Ockenden8:20

But Auntie Evelyn was actually a debt collector and she would come round all times of the day and night, knocking on the door. I remember my mum had a beige card and Auntie Evelyn would fill in how much money she'd given and how much money my mum had then paid back on Daddy's payday.

Donna Ockenden8:37

I think that it took me until I became an adult to realise the sacrifices that my parents had made for me.

Donna Ockenden8:45

The way that my dad worked has also instilled in me a real work ethic to be the best you can. So you know, I have two lovely daughters, Katie and Phoebe. They would tell you if you asked them that mum's phrase is be the best you can.

Presenter9:03

Yeah.

Presenter9:04

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden9:04

You dad

Presenter9:04

ended up leaving Wales, as you mentioned. He was working for a construction company in the Persian Gulf at one point. How often did he come home around that time?

Presenter9:13

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden9:13

He did six months on Das Island and two weeks at home. And my mum was left to look after four little children. I think I would have been

Donna Ockenden9:22

Seven, so I was the oldest and my little sister was a baby. What kind of effect did that have on the family?

Donna Ockenden9:30

My mum plowed on in the best way that she could.

Donna Ockenden9:34

So my mum and dad wrote to each other every day.

Donna Ockenden9:37

And I wrote very regularly. Daddy would leave me money, and in those days it was flimsy blue air mail paper.

Donna Ockenden9:43

And yeah, once a month he would phone home to a neighbour's house and we would all have to run up the street to to take the phone call. So it was great excitement.

Presenter9:53

It's time for your second choice of

Donna Ockenden9:55

Music today, if you wouldn't mind.

Presenter9:56

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden9:56

Don't know what

Presenter9:56

Uh

Donna Ockenden9:56

Uh

Presenter9:56

Yeah. Take

Donna Ockenden9:57

Gonna be. Bye-bye, baby, by the Bay City Rollers. Because as a little girl, the BCR, as they were known, the Bay City Rollers, and all of the

Donna Ockenden10:06

Girls in my school, in Blangwa primary school, were absolutely mad on them. And there was a day when we were all going to wear either basity roller T shirts or tartan scarves. They were a Scottish boy band.

Donna Ockenden10:18

And I asked my my mum, Mum, I need a T-shirt and she was like, Oh, see what we can do, you know, see I you know, I'll do my best. And I woke up that morning and my mum had hand stitched a pair of tartan-edged trousers for me in Les McEwen, he was the lead singer, Les McEwen, white tartan.

Donna Ockenden10:38

And I went into school that day. I was the only girl with Les McEwen trousers, and I just felt like a supermodel.

Speaker 410:54

My my baby, don't let me buy baby.

Speaker 411:00

You're the one girl in town I married.

Speaker 411:05

Girl and Mary and now with flower

Speaker 411:11

I was here.

Presenter11:16

The Bay City Rollers and Bye Bye Baby.

Presenter11:19

So, Donna Rockington, your mum, Pat, was a very complicated person. You've described her as troubled. Where did her problems stem from?

Donna Ockenden11:27

Unfortunately, from the very earliest age until

Donna Ockenden11:32

She married my dad. She endured a life of tyranny.

Donna Ockenden11:37

and depravity at the hands of her father and her mother. And the trauma that she experienced, I think it's true to say stayed with her until the day she died in twenty twenty one. Was it physical abuse? Is it sexual abuse? Everything. Yeah.

Presenter11:53

Uh

Donna Ockenden11:53

What did you know about that when you

Presenter11:54

They were growing up.

Donna Ockenden11:56

I didn't know until I was eighteen, so mum did tell me.

Donna Ockenden12:04

Interestingly, though, we never spoke about it again. It was almost as though she had told me, and then it was never discussed.

Donna Ockenden12:12

Mum was on constant pain killers, pain relief of the strongest, strongest kind. She carried her medication around in a supermarket carrier bag. Pain relief. I mean psychological pain. Pain. But but but she saw herself as having lots of physical ailments and

Speaker 112:23

Okay.

Speaker 112:28

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden12:29

She would take pain relief in the middle of the night, she would take pain relief in the middle of the day.

Donna Ockenden12:35

She would take pain relief to sleep, she would take other tablets to wake up, all of which

Presenter12:40

Must have affected her behaviour. So, what do you remember about how she behaved, and when did you realise that that wasn't normal?

Donna Ockenden12:48

She couldn't tolerate close physical contact. If we fell over, she would pick us up. There we are then, brush us down. You know, never, if we cried, she never put an arm around us. She wasn't able to do it. Secondly, she was frightened of the dark. So she never went to bed at night. She would sit up, and hence the stitching of the Bay City Roller trousers. So she'd do that overnight. She'd do that overnight. She made Action Man clothes for my brother's Action Man and Cindy clothes and

Speaker 113:11

And I think

Donna Ockenden13:17

We didn't link that behaviour to the abuse that she'd suffered until much later in life, and it took her dying, passing away, for all of us to actually sit down and realize that all of these things were linked. It's interesting that.

Presenter13:31

idea of her sitting up stitching those trousers for you to go to school and feel great in, but not being able to put her arm around you. I mean, there's something in her there that's wanting to show her love. Absolutely. But was that her only way of expressing it? Would she be able to say it? What was her

Donna Ockenden13:46

emotionally engagement with you and her behaviour like She never said it. She never said it. And it was about what could she do, bearing in mind, you know, we were living in poverty, so she couldn't go out and buy us

Presenter13:48

If you like.

Donna Ockenden13:59

riches in gold. So it was what tasks could she do to show us that she loved us. Um and for me also she taught me to read. She was very, very keen that I should learn to read. And every Friday so that she could go with the others, um you know, push the pram up to Aberdeen to go and do the weekly shop and push the pram back. I had to stay for school dinners, but I was quite a good negotiator because the only way I would stay for school dinners was be if mammy brought me a ladybird book.

Donna Ockenden14:27

You know, she would choose the Ladybird book every Friday, a different one, and then sit with me and read. So she would give up her time. But she couldn't give affection.

Presenter14:36

What effect did all of this have on you, do you think? Did you become a kind of second mum, as many kids in that situation often do?

Donna Ockenden14:42

Yes, I did. And even now, so I'm fifty eight, I'm the oldest and my siblings are all younger than me, there is still a tendency in in our family to say, well, let's ask Don, what does Donna think? And we are really close. We're in touch every day.

Speaker 414:52

Mm.

Donna Ockenden14:57

Despite everything that we went through as children, we remain really, really close and together. And during.

Presenter15:02

That time, you did have your paternal grandmother, Beryl. I know she was a very important person to you. What did she provide?

Donna Ockenden15:10

So Nanny Beryl um was proper and solid and she wore outdoor clothes and indoor clothes, outdoor shoes and indoor shoes. So life at home would often have been chaotic and dirty.

Donna Ockenden15:25

And Nanny Beryl gave us structures. She would cook for us and she would insist that we sat at the table. The table would be laid. And she gave us time. We spent a lot of time at her house. And she was a role model of correctness and properness. But at the same time, she was also very affectionate. She had a rocking chair in her house. And we would queue up the four of us to sit on the rocking chair with Nanny.

Donna Ockenden15:53

So, you know, yes, she was very, very important to us.

Donna Ockenden15:58

Donna, it's time for your next disc. Your third choice today.

Donna Ockenden16:02

So we're going to hear Ukulely Lady sung by Ethel Merman. This was a song that Nanny Beryl.

Donna Ockenden16:08

would sing when she was applying her lipstick to go down to town, to go down to Aberdare. So she never went out of the house without makeup. She used to wear red lipstick and sing and ham along to this.

Speaker 416:20

If you like a you gale lady, you galely lady like a you

Speaker 416:29

If you like

Speaker 416:32

To linger where it's shady, you galally lady linger too.

Speaker 416:38

Eve

Speaker 416:41

Are you Kale lady? While you promise ever to be true?

Speaker 416:47

And she sees.

Speaker 416:50

Yeah.

Presenter16:50

Ukulele Lady, Effo Merman.

Presenter16:53

Donna Rockington, as you've said, your father got a job in Abu Dhabi when you were nine, and the family moved out to the city. What do you remember about life there?

Presenter17:02

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden17:02

It was a huge cultural change to move from Aberramon, a little village in South Wales, to Aboudabi. I mean, we'd never even been to an airport before as children.

Donna Ockenden17:13

My fondest memories of Abu Dhabi were that every evening, because my mum got a job working night shifts in a hospital called the Cornish Hospital.

Donna Ockenden17:24

Daddy would say to us Suk or Beach.

Donna Ockenden17:27

And my brother would always say beach because there were speedboats down on this particular beach called Batine Beach and I would always say soup.

Donna Ockenden17:35

And I was absolutely fascinated by the local ladies. They wore full face burkers, black abayas, and then very brightly coloured dresses. That remained one of my fondest memories, you know, going to the souk um with daddy. So your dad got a j

Presenter17:49

Dop in Iran

Donna Ockenden17:50

Uh

Presenter17:50

But then the revolution there meant that you all came back to Wales. He then went off to work again and he was in Africa for you different African countries. Absolutely. Yeah.

Donna Ockenden17:59

What will happen to everyone else? So, we stayed at home with mum in South Wales. By this time, obviously, my parents were comfortably off, and my dad had built a house, a large white house, in a place called Cumbach, so a couple of miles away from Aberdair. Unfortunately, my mother wrote to him when he was in Africa to say she had met someone else, he was not to come home, that if he did come home, he was to move in to Nanny Beryl's spare room, which he did. So, in it would have been 1979, daddy lost everything. He lost his home, he lost his children, he lost his wife, and he moved back in with his mother. And where were you? We were at home in Cumbach. My mother married again very quickly, deeply unpleasant character. And shortly thereafterwards, my sister was born, who we remained very close to. Was this when you were at boarding school? So I was briefly at boarding school. That was something that my dad very much wanted me to do. And then one day out of the blue, my mother came and collected me and took me back to Wales.

Donna Ockenden19:12

No warning, I had no idea. I remember being in in a a science class and the head teacher came in and said, Donna Thomas, your mother's here to collect you and I I didn't know. And was that fairly typical of your mum? That kind of

Presenter19:24

That kind of

Donna Ockenden19:25

Yeah. Uh

Presenter19:26

Behavior.

Donna Ockenden19:26

Behavior.

Presenter19:27

And your parents ended up in court fighting over where you should live. How much did you know about that battle between them?

Donna Ockenden19:34

Uh

Donna Ockenden19:35

We knew some of it.

Donna Ockenden19:39

However, at the time

Donna Ockenden19:41

I had decided I wanted to do law, and my mum said to me one day, Oh, don't go to school today. You got an opportunity to go and look round a court if you want to and I thought great. So I'm taken by my mother, and the person I later realized was her solicitor, round the back of this court in Merthyr Tydvil, I think, in South Wales.

Donna Ockenden20:01

And I'm sat down and they open a curtain and I'm actually in a witness box.

Donna Ockenden20:06

I'm in the witness box, and my dad and his then partner. How old were you, Donna?

Donna Ockenden20:12

I would have been in first year of O level, so I would have been maybe fourteen.

Presenter20:16

Fourteen fifty

Donna Ockenden20:19

And there's a judge there. I p presume it was a judge. He he didn't introduce himself. And he said, Your mother wants to take you to Ireland and you and your brother and your sisters. What do you want to do? I said, I I don't know.

Donna Ockenden20:30

I just want everyone to be happy.

Donna Ockenden20:32

And then my father started shouting in the court, don't take my children away, don't take my children away, crying and shouting.

Donna Ockenden20:40

And in the end, I remember saying, Oh, well, I suppose I do then. And the judge said to my mother, You can take the children to Ireland.

Donna Ockenden20:49

Um some months went by and nothing happened, and then we were told we were going to Ireland for a week end.

Donna Ockenden20:56

So we packed the car. This was with her second husband. We packed the car with a few possessions.

Donna Ockenden21:03

I did see my mother flash our goldfish down the drain.

Donna Ockenden21:07

We left the cats behind'cause we were only going for a weekend, and when we got there she had moved us to Ireland and changed our school. She changed our name as well. So we were stepfather's name. Yes. So we were

Presenter21:18

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden21:21

It was first day at school.

Donna Ockenden21:23

And I remember Sister Ita, the nuns, calling out Donna Williams, Donna Williams.

Donna Ockenden21:30

Donna Williams was calling the register, and I didn't answer,'cause

Presenter21:33

And I

Donna Ockenden21:35

I didn't know Donno Williams was. Yeah. And I remember thinking

Presenter21:37

Uh

Donna Ockenden21:39

But I'm Donna Thomas. My name is Donna Thomas.

Presenter21:44

Donna, let's take a break for some music. It's your fourth choice today. Tell us what we're going to hear next and why you're taking it to the island with you.

Donna Ockenden21:51

We're going to hear Isn't It Amazing by the Hothouse Flowers. It links my two.

Donna Ockenden21:58

Or three occasions when I lived in the Middle East. I lived as a child and as an adult opposite a mosque. I would hear, as a child, I heard morning prayers fajr and I didn't know what this beautiful sound was. And this song talks about, and our prayers will be heard to fill the air. And whenever I hear this song, I'm back in Abu Dhabi, which is a place that I love.

Speaker 422:22

Steady, steady.

Speaker 422:25

Steady go

Speaker 422:28

Every cry is a song

Speaker 422:52

Uh

Speaker 122:52

Uh

Presenter22:52

Isn't it amazing? Hothouse flowers.

Presenter22:55

Donna Rockenden, you were obviously a bright girl, and you came back to England alone to study for your A levels. Your mother, though, insisted that you lived with her father. It's difficult to comprehend that she would send you back to the man who'd abused her so appallingly. What happened?

Donna Ockenden23:13

I moved in with my grandfather and his second wife. I hardly knew them. We'd hardly seen them throughout our childhood.

Donna Ockenden23:23

And for a couple of months I didn't know that I was being spied on. You know, the lock on my bedroom door was broken. The lock on the bathroom door got broken.

Donna Ockenden23:33

I would try to go to the toilet and the door would be pushed open.

Speaker 423:37

Hmm.

Donna Ockenden23:38

Um and then it it um

Donna Ockenden23:42

progress to hands up my skirt, finding him in my room at night. I couldn't do the most basic thing. I couldn't have a bath for two years. That sounds ridiculous, but it's true. Because if I was to run a bath and get in a bath, he would be in the bathroom. I couldn't go to the toilet properly. So if I wanted to go to the toilet, it had to be a public toilet or toilet at school.

Donna Ockenden24:01

I lived in fear for the whole two years of my A levels.

Presenter24:06

Was there anyone you could ask for help, anyone you could talk to?

Donna Ockenden24:09

I think, first of all, in terms of school, I would have gone from, I know I did go from someone who was quite a bright student, who was expected to do very well, to coasting along the bottom of the A-level class. And my A-level results were really poor in the end. But no one inquired, no one was curious, no one asked why. And on a number of occasions, I had no money because my mother.

Donna Ockenden24:31

Sent me with no pocket money.

Donna Ockenden24:34

I walked miles across Bristol to my uh mother's family.

Donna Ockenden24:38

And said, I got something important to tell you. And I think I can remember doing that three times. And they just put me in a car and took me back.

Donna Ockenden24:46

So I was all on my own. Were you able to talk to anybody else? Friends? Were you able to get in touch with your dad? For some reason I didn't contact my dad and Nanny Beryl. I told my dad many, many, many years later.

Presenter24:58

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden24:58

The other thing that was why why

Presenter24:58

The other thing.

Donna Ockenden25:00

Well, the the first thing was um my grandfather blocked the phone so I couldn't make external calls.

Presenter25:00

Well

Donna Ockenden25:07

And I was just totally alone.

Donna Ockenden25:10

When every

Presenter25:10

Everybody moved over. I mean, how did you feel about that? Because you had this role as second mother figure to your siblings. You must have been scared for them. How how did you cope?

Donna Ockenden25:21

Well, I tried to prevent it, so it got so bad that I decided I was gonna somehow I was gonna try and tell my mother.

Donna Ockenden25:28

And I had to get through to the operator, and I told the operator what was happening, and she wanted to call the police, and I said, No, I just need to speak to my ma'am. And she said, Okay, I'm going to put you through, but if you don't get help, you must come back to us.

Donna Ockenden25:44

So I spoke to my mum and I said told her what was happening and I said to her, you know, I'm coming back to Ireland or I'm going to Wales. No, she said, it hasn't worked out in Ireland. He's left me. I'm going to do a moonlit flit. We're coming back to live. We called him Grampa with Grampa in Bristol. And I said, you can't. You can't do it. It's not safe. It's not safe. She said, we'll be with you by the end of the week.

Donna Ockenden26:10

And so then there had to be a watchfulness. I told my sisters, and I we had to try and keep we tried to keep an eye on one another the whole time. We tried, but couldn't always achieve it, to always have at least two of us in the house at any one time. So like a rota.

Presenter26:28

Yeah

Donna Ockenden26:29

Almost like, yeah, a protection rotor, but that wasn't always achievable.

Donna Ockenden26:34

And I think it was only maybe six or eight weeks. It was a short period of time. He beat my brother and that was it. We weren't having any of that. Myself and my sisters just verbally attacked him for it and he just he threw us out on the street. Literally, he threw us out on the street with our possessions.

Donna Ockenden26:56

And it a

Presenter26:56

Living in a homeless shelter, the whole family, and you spent quite some time there. How long and

Donna Ockenden27:02

What was life like?

Presenter27:03

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden27:03

There were no cooking facilities, there were no laundry facilities. We used to hang our milk outside in a carrier bag outside the window. So in winter they were frozen blocks, in summer it curdled. Cooking was illegal, it was not allowed, and if you were caught cooking, you were thrown out. So when we did cook on a little Primus gas stove or an electric one-ring cooker,

Donna Ockenden27:26

Mum used to block the doors with towels. And we became aware I became aware first, but we became aware that let's call them our neighbours within the homeless shelter. They were not necessarily safe to be around children.

Donna Ockenden27:39

And so again, that watchfulness, the five of us, the watchfulness around the plywood corridors, as we called them, were.

Speaker 127:46

Mm.

Donna Ockenden27:47

was very, very evident. We all looked out for one another.

Donna Ockenden27:53

Were you angry with your mother for all that she put you through?

Donna Ockenden27:57

I was more resigned, I think. One of the features of our relationship was, no matter the controlling and the behaviour,

Donna Ockenden28:05

Until we finally became estranged from her many, many years later, we tolerated it, and I can't really explain why that was.

Presenter28:12

Yeah.

Presenter28:13

Donna, I want to find out what happened to you in a moment, but first I'd love to hear your fifth music choice today. What's your next disc?

Donna Ockenden28:21

My next disc is a song called If Only by Hazel O'Connor, and it comes from the film Breaking Glass, where Kate, the heroine of the film, is

Donna Ockenden28:32

Dependent on drugs, and she's now in rehabilitation. It's the final song in the film, and she sings, I'll stand up again and I'll run, and I'll jump up till I touch the sun. I won't be the one to be bowed by the sound of If Only. And we used to play this on the record player in Neville House with a little record player, and it was a song that somehow resonated with me and it kept me going. I'll stand up again and I'll run, and I did.

Speaker 429:05

They turn on the light.

Donna Ockenden29:07

Uh

Speaker 429:07

You guard your heart, so they steal your sight You reach out in blindness, touch the lone Its icle fingers chill you to the bone

Speaker 429:23

What do you do when the cat gets you down?

Speaker 429:27

No way to tell it's all going wrong

Speaker 429:31

Smile that the birds are

Presenter29:33

Hazel O'Connor, if only.

Presenter29:38

Donna Ochendon, during this period of constant upheaval, you somehow managed to complete your nursing and midwifery training in Wales and then later Portsmouth.

Presenter29:47

Can you remember the first baby you?

Donna Ockenden29:49

You saw being born.

Presenter29:50

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden29:50

I can remember the first baby I saw being born. It was at Neath General Hospital, a little girl. I was so excited about seeing this new baby arrive in the world.

Donna Ockenden30:01

I didn't stay for the afterbirth to be delivered. I just wanted to tell my mum that I'd seen a baby being born. So I ran out of the room.

Donna Ockenden30:09

The maternity unit in Neath Hospital was at the top of a hill, and I just ran down to a phone box to phone my ma'am.

Donna Ockenden30:15

I got back and the Labour Ward sister gave me a huge telling off, a well deserved telling off, that, you know, the birth hadn't been completed because the afterbirth hadn't been delivered. Don't you ever do that again. I can tell you that I didn't ever do that again.

Presenter30:29

As you go.

Donna Ockenden30:31

I mean, it it's

Presenter30:31

Sounds like you you loved it from the beginning. You you'd found a passion. I wonder about what was driving you during that time, whether work offered a kind of salvation. I mean, obviously, literally a way out of the circumstances that you were in, but also emotionally, personally.

Donna Ockenden30:46

Yeah, absolutely. So from seeing that first birth, there was some something, some affinity, something that sparked

Donna Ockenden30:55

a love within me, and I knew from that day that I wanted to be a midwife.

Donna Ockenden31:01

And of course, I think the other practical issue is that I was able to move away from the chaos, go and live in the nurse's home. I didn't form close friendships because most of the other student nurses, you know, when they were off duty, they, you know, they would go out, they would enjoy themselves. I couldn't do it. And my little room, we had, they were nice rooms with, you know, sink and whatever. Mine was always neat, tidy. I was always running the little vacuum cleaner over. I was always polishing. Just keeping order was so important. I could never relax or let myself go or have a nice time. I was Mrs. Sirius, probably Mrs. Boring, because you know, I would think. But it's understandable. You've been through.

Presenter31:41

So much chaos, of course you want to have control.

Presenter31:46

At the beginning of the programme, I talked about baby Gina, and I know that her death was a huge turning point for you. Why was that? What happened?

Donna Ockenden31:54

So, I was a newly qualified midwife. I'd been qualified for less than a year, and I came on a late shift.

Donna Ockenden32:01

And the sister said, We've got a baby in the side room and she's expected to die this evening. And baby Gina had been born in a nearby hospital, not Portsmouth, and she'd been transferred in for expert neonatal care. But our neonatal team, who were excellent, couldn't do anything for her.

Donna Ockenden32:20

And so the morning sister who was handing over said, Who will go and help Gina's parents?

Donna Ockenden32:28

And this little voice said, I will. Of course that was me, and I remember standing outside their door thinking, Oh, why did you say that?

Donna Ockenden32:38

Did you, do you think? What what made you put your hand up?

Donna Ockenden32:40

I just wanted to help and I helped them cuddle Gina, bath her, put her best dress on and she died about half past six that evening and her mum said to me when it was time to take her to the mortuary that they were going to go because they didn't want to see that happen. But she made me promise. She said to me, you are to take her to the mortuary.

Donna Ockenden33:04

In her own cot, a stranger mustn't take her and she's not going in a mortuary casket.

Donna Ockenden33:11

And on that particular day it felt like half of Portsmouth had come into Saint Mary's Hospital. Every lift, every stairs, every corridor between the woods was just full.

Donna Ockenden33:21

So I'm pushing this little baby Gina. She's she's died.

Donna Ockenden33:25

And of course all of Portsmouth's children have run out. Can I see your baby?

Donna Ockenden33:29

And I didn't know what to do, and I said no, no, you can't see my baby.

Donna Ockenden33:33

So I went upstairs to the neonatal unit, where I found a room an empty room and I sat and I held her, and I was so angry I was so angry on her behalf and her mother Veronica's behalf.

Donna Ockenden33:45

Because

Donna Ockenden33:46

She shouldn't have died and she'd been she'd died because obstetricians and midwives had let her mother and her down.

Donna Ockenden33:54

And I thought, that's it. I'm leaving midwifery. How can I stay in and around maternity services when such things happen to babies?

Donna Ockenden34:02

and I was holding her'cause we had to wait till the end of visiting time.

Donna Ockenden34:06

And then I thought, but if I stayed

Donna Ockenden34:09

Could I make a difference?

Donna Ockenden34:11

And so I made a little promise to Gina that no matter how long or how short my career would be in maternity,

Donna Ockenden34:19

Every day I would try and do something to make a difference, to make maternity care safer for mothers and babies.

Donna Ockenden34:27

And I called it my Gina promise.

Donna Ockenden34:30

And I believe after all these years that I've done something. I've tried to do something every day to make maternity care safer. Were you able to keep in touch with Gina's family?

Donna Ockenden34:41

Many months later, a card arrived for me at the hospital from Gina's mum Veronica to say, I'm pregnant. You are the only midwife I can trust to bring my new baby safely into the world. So I asked a Portsmouth obstetrician, Patrick Hogston, would he look after Veronica with me? And we both did. And I was there at the Caesarean section to meet Sharne as she came into the world. And Sharne is my much loved goddaughter.

Donna Ockenden35:09

That's so lovely. And just a couple of months ago in September, I was given an honorary PhD by the University of Chichester for services to maternity safety. And Gina's mother and sisters

Donna Ockenden35:25

Um, we're there.

Donna Ockenden35:27

To hear me tell the story and to say thank you to Gina.

Donna Ockenden35:34

That m

Presenter35:34

Must have meant so much to you for them to be there.

Donna Ockenden35:38

They just said, You gave Gina a

Presenter35:39

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden35:40

Voice Gina made a difference.

Presenter35:42

Uh

Donna Ockenden35:42

Uh

Presenter35:44

Let's have some more music, Donna. It's your sixth disc. What have you chosen?

Donna Ockenden35:48

I can see clearly now by the hothouse flowers. It sums up where I am in my life today. I always dance. I probably look completely silly, but I always dance in my kitchen when I hear it. And it just makes me realize how far I've come. Because I wake up every day now with gratitude in my heart.

Speaker 436:08

I can see clearly now the rain is done

Speaker 436:15

I can see all obstacles in my way

Speaker 436:22

Gone of the dark clouds that had me blind

Speaker 436:28

Be a bride

Speaker 436:31

Sunshiny day

Presenter36:38

Hothouse flowers, I can see clearly now.

Presenter36:41

Donna Occundon, by twenty seventeen you were one of the most senior midwives in the country and you were asked to chair the independent review into maternity services at the Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust. It became known as the Occkendon Review. What shocked you most about what you discovered?

Donna Ockenden36:58

It was the way that women and families were treated, it was the way they were not listened to, and c the cases that resonate with me were when parents were lied to.

Donna Ockenden37:10

And in some cases, mothers were blamed for their own deaths. So where high-risk mothers had not been given the appropriate care and died, and then their family, sometimes their husbands or their partners or their sisters were told, well, if she hadn't got pregnant, we did tell her, this wouldn't have happened. I had met with family after family.

Donna Ockenden37:36

in Shrewsbury, and heard that, and surviving children, and heard them say

Donna Ockenden37:43

Well, if I thought, if I hadn't been born, that mum would still be here and therefore it was my fault. I've said I'd said to a number of families, This is not your blame or your guilt to carry, it's not you.

Presenter37:57

Was it easy to get the families to trust you? I mean, given everything they'd been through and the fact that they'd been lied to and and blamed in in some cases for what happened? Yeah.

Donna Ockenden38:07

Initially no.

Donna Ockenden38:09

And there was one family who said

Donna Ockenden38:12

Who's she, why do we want her? And made it really clear that trust and respect had to be earned. And I think over time,

Donna Ockenden38:24

As they saw the

Donna Ockenden38:26

compassionate and thorough approach to my work with a full expert multiprofessional team, I think the trust was won over a very long period of time.

Presenter38:38

I mean, the scale of it is absolutely staggering. Two hundred babies and nine mothers gone. Why had those types of incidents been allowed to happen time and again over decades?

Donna Ockenden38:51

I think it was a maternity service that, first of all, didn't link in with the rest of the trust. So the staff members who did speak to us talked about the car park culture. Maternity was on the other side of the car park.

Donna Ockenden39:04

So they didn't link in with the executive team?

Donna Ockenden39:07

So what does that mean? How does that influence?

Presenter39:08

Take the

Donna Ockenden39:08

It meant that incidents that should have made their way up to trust board level simply didn't. And I think in a number of cases there was deliberate cover-up. We were

Donna Ockenden39:24

Sent some information from the trust, a typed-up transcript where a senior member of the maternity team is saying.

Donna Ockenden39:31

We won't call this an SI because every Tom, Dick and Harry will be crawling all over it if we do. What's an SI? Serious incident, and that is in the report. That quote is in the report.

Donna Ockenden39:44

Shrewsbury and Telford

Presenter39:45

NHS Trust described your review as deeply distressing and has apologised to the families. The Trust says it's introduced many of your recommendations. Also, the West Mercier Police Force has launched an investigation into some of the cases in the review.

Presenter40:00

Donna, if you could wave a magic wand and see just one change happen as a result of your work.

Presenter40:07

What would it be?

Donna Ockenden40:08

Yeah.

Donna Ockenden40:09

I'd have to ask you for two. First of all, that all women receive safe care, regardless of where they live in the country.

Donna Ockenden40:19

and that staff on the ground are looked after and looked out for.

Donna Ockenden40:24

and able to deliver the care that the vast, vast majority of them want to deliver? Because what I hear every day across the country is staff under the most enormous pressure are not able to give the care that they want to give.

Donna Ockenden40:40

Yeah.

Presenter40:40

And how do you personally feel about those failings as somebody who's dedicated their career to looking after mothers and babies?

Presenter40:47

It makes

Donna Ockenden40:48

makes me more determined to do the work that I do.

Donna Ockenden40:52

There is also a deep disappointment, but there's a determination.

Donna Ockenden40:59

That probably comes back from the old days of being little Donner Thomas in Aberdare.

Donna Ockenden41:04

Let's have some more music, Donna. Your seventh choice. What's it going to be today? Wheel Keep a Welcome by Harry Seacombe and it links my mother and father's early life, just before they're off on their adventure to Abu Dhabi with us. The streets around us, Cardiff Road, Holford Street and Currie Street, all clubbed together and a male-voice choir sang to my parents to remind them that whatever happened they'd always be welcome in Wales.

Donna Ockenden41:29

And before my dad died, I spent a month by his bedside.

Donna Ockenden41:33

And we agreed that we would say goodbye to his coffin to this music.

Speaker 441:39

Will keep a world of me.

Speaker 441:44

The hillsides will keep a world song in Blue Vales. This land you knew will still be singing when you come home again.

Presenter42:09

We'll keep a welcome. Harry Seacombe.

Presenter42:12

Donna Okenden, your mother died in 2021. You'd been estranged from her for many years by then, but you were with her at the end of her life.

Presenter42:21

What do you remember about those final days?

Donna Ockenden42:23

We were estranged from mum for the last twenty years of her life because her behaviour became too much for my siblings and I to cope with. And the next time we saw her, we got a call

Donna Ockenden42:37

From my sister to say mum is in hospital and she's dying and she's asked for you and she's asked for all of you and we went and spent the last seventy two hours of her life with her. I hope that she died knowing that she was loved. She had spent her life looking for love and I hope that she felt it.

Donna Ockenden43:01

And on the last day when I knew that she was going to die, before I left my house that day, I just grabbed a pile of Lady Bird books. The books that she'd let you get as a little girl. Yes. And as she passed away I sat with my siblings and I read her the stories that she'd read me as a little girl, and I hope she felt the love.

Presenter43:20

How do you pick yourself up, Donna, when you're feeling swamped by the enormity and the emotional toll of the work that you do?

Donna Ockenden43:28

So in the last year particularly, so I wasn't always very good at looking after myself, but in the last year I've made a real commitment to that. I have lost a huge amount of weight, and I learnt Vedic meditation as well, very simple meditation.

Donna Ockenden43:46

It means that

Donna Ockenden43:47

I'm physically very well now, but psychologically I start each day with gratitude and a wholeness and a peace.

Donna Ockenden43:59

That makes me glad to be alive. I can then go and give what I need to give to families.

Donna Ockenden44:05

We've taught

Presenter44:05

You talked a lot today about grief and about loss. I wonder what your work and what your own life has taught you about those things.

Donna Ockenden44:14

I think that it's taught me that families need time and they need to be heard.

Donna Ockenden44:24

At the same time, I suppose what have I I've learnt for myself that I was able in my sense, because I I have lost a lot in life, I was able to recover, but my loss was recoverable.

Donna Ockenden44:39

The difference, I suppose, with the families that I hopefully provide both care for and the ability to listen is that unfortunately I cannot turn the clock back for them. I so wish that I could, but I can't. And so all that I can give them is my time and my expertise, I hope.

Donna Ockenden45:05

and my compassion.

Donna Ockenden45:07

I'm about to cast you away to the island. How do you think you'll get on?

Donna Ockenden45:12

I'm hoping that my life experiences of picking things up, getting on with things, making a home wherever I could will stand me in good stead. So I hope I'll adapt quite quickly because I've shown that I can adapt. How will you be on your own?

Donna Ockenden45:31

I do like my own company.

Donna Ockenden45:33

At the moment I spend every day listening to others, talking to others and and doing things for others quite rightly. But I will quite often be very happy to go away and holiday on my own. So I'm going to treat this as an extended holiday. Why not? If you've got to be on a desert island you

Presenter45:52

Might as well decompress. Absolutely. All right. Well, one more track before we send you there. What's it going to be, Donna? Your last choice today? Its front

Donna Ockenden46:01

Francesca by Josier. This is a song for me that causes me to reflect on where I've come from and where I am today. It talks about my life being a storm since I was born. How could I fear any hurricane? Are you proud of the journey you've taken? I am proud of the journey I've taken.

Donna Ockenden46:21

I'm not a completed article. My work, there's still so much to do, but onwards and upwards.

Speaker 446:29

Now that it's done

Speaker 446:34

There's not one thing that I would change

Speaker 446:39

My life was a storm.

Speaker 446:42

Since I was born

Speaker 446:45

How could I feel any hurricane?

Speaker 446:51

Someone asked me at the end

Speaker 446:55

I tell him, put me back in

Presenter47:00

Poseio and Francesca. So, Donna Rockendon, it's time to cast you away to the island. I'm going to send you there with the books, the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and another of your choice. What's that going to be?

Donna Ockenden47:11

I'm going to take with me Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte, because that was my first grown up book after graduating from Lady Bird Books, Jane Eyre. But I'm going to take a very special copy with me. Oh?

Donna Ockenden47:22

In the vaults of the British Library is Charlotte Bronte's own handwritten copy of Jane Eyre. I've had the privilege as a patron of the British Library to go and see it.

Donna Ockenden47:33

And I am going to reassure the British Library, I will take very good care of it on the Desert Island. Do you wanna let it get any of the surf or sand get on there? Absolutely not. So I'm sure that they will believe me and that they'll let me take this to the Desert Island. Has it got crossings out? Has it got her notes in it? It's got her notes in it. It's got her crossings out in it. Her changes in it.

Presenter47:38

I mean that is

Presenter47:47

Does it mean that?

Donna Ockenden47:52

And my task while I'm on the desert island is to learn Jane Eyre by rote, so that when I come back I'll be able to impress people with that.

Presenter48:02

Well, as long as you keep it dry, I agree. It's yours. What a fantastic choice. You could also have a luxury item. What will that be?

Donna Ockenden48:09

That will be a lipstick called ribbon, which is red, which I'm wearing today. And I think it's something that I took from the days of Nanny Beryl, a red lipstick to walk into Aberdare.

Donna Ockenden48:21

And I never start a day without my ribbon lipstick. Oh, yeah, we'll let you.

Presenter48:25

We have that. And finally, which track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves first, Donna?

Donna Ockenden48:31

Disc six I can see clearly now from the hothouse flowers and I'm going to start each day with my lipstick and dancing on my island.

Presenter48:40

It doesn't sound so bad. It doesn't. Donna Ockington, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you.

Presenter49:01

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Donna. I love that she's going to start every day on the island with an application of Red Lippi. We've cast away many nurses and midwives including Professor Dame Elizabeth Anionwoo, Edna Adan Ismail and the former nurse and doctor Dame Cicely Saunders.

Presenter49:18

The studio manager for today's programme was Never Miserian. The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, the production coordinator was Susie Roylence, and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the journalist, Lindsay Hilsom. I do hope you'll join us.

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Presenter50:17

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