Gareth Southgate OBE

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:44

My castaway this week is the former footballer and manager Gareth Southgate. He recently called time on the biggest job in English football. For eight years and 102 games, he has carried the hopes and heartache of millions of fans, not to mention the England men's team, on his perfectly tailored shoulders. Nobody has represented England more than him, first as a player, then as a coach. As a leader, he distinguished himself by what he did and how he did it. The nation's most successful manager in the modern game, he took his team to the World Cup semi-finals for the first time in 28 years and was the first England manager to make two major tournament finals at the Euros. He also changed the culture of the national team. In a 2021 open letter, Dear England, he articulated a new kind of England identity, a patriotism founded on team spirit and inclusivity. It struck a nerve that pandemic year. Newspapers carried it in full, millions shared it online, and it inspired a critically acclaimed stage play. Not bad for a lad who started out on a YTS scheme at Crystal Palace. Croydon College are very proud, and so is he. He says, As a proud Englishman, it's been the honour of my life to play for England and to manage England. It has meant everything to me, and I have given it my all. Gareth Southgate, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Gareth Southgate OBE2:05

Thank you very much. Lovely to be here.

Presenter2:07

We're delighted to have you. Gareth, in that letter that you wrote, which I mentioned, you say that only one thousand two hundred men have ever had the chance to wear the England shirt. I wonder what that feels like when you put that on for the first time?

Gareth Southgate OBE2:19

Oh, incredible. It's not just what it means to you, but there are all the people that have worked with you along the way. So, of course, your immediate family, your coaches, the junior teams you played for, the area you grew up in. So, we always made a point of telling the players that when we presented them with a cap that was commemorating their first appearance. And, of course, you've got in your mind the history of the shirt and the nights that you've watched and agonised and lived through when I was younger. So, I'm a huge patriot. And even just putting the training kit on when I first was involved with the England squad, I remember it was in my room, went to my room at Burnham Beaches, put the training kit on, and then just looked at it in the mirror, looked at the badge, and yeah, it was quite a surreal moment.

Presenter2:34

Hmm.

Presenter3:07

The memories that that you create as a footballer and of course as a football manager too, the the moments in those games, they stay with people for a lifetime, don't they? They remember who they were watching with, they they become part of their own story, you know, their their lives. I wonder if you have a favourite England memory as a coach?

Gareth Southgate OBE3:25

Well definitely beating Denmark in the semi-final at Wembley. I mean both semi-finals that we won were dramatic games. Holland in the last Euros, Denmark in the previous one, but just that feeling and that understanding that this was going to be the first final for 55 years and that we were creating another bit of history in our journey as a team and just to see what it meant to people, what it meant to the country, not only in the stadium that night, but the days that followed leading into the final and the journey to the stadium of the final where we were just coming out of that COVID period, but streets were lined with people all the way from Watford where we were staying, where I was born.

Presenter4:01

But

Gareth Southgate OBE4:08

Right the way to Wembley, amazing thing to experience really.

Presenter4:11

And that atmosphere that you're talking about, you know, the the boost to the national mood, that's just one part of what football can do beyond the pitch, isn't it? It's it's such a powerful game.

Gareth Southgate OBE4:21

Well, it is. And especially with the national team. I mean, clearly, clubs mean a lot to people. They're part of their communities. And people week to week enjoy that release of not having to go to work, following their club. It means so much to people. And then the national team captures everybody because it's not just the regular football fan. It's auntie, it's granddad, it's whole families coming together for national moments, a bit like royal events, really, the big tournaments, the things that bring together viewing figures of 25 million plus across all the different platforms we have now. But people do remember where they were when those games were played and they do remember those iconic moments.

Presenter5:05

And of course, you've chosen your eight tracks to take to the island. I mean, did you use music to kind of fire yourself up and get yourself in the zone?

Gareth Southgate OBE5:13

Well both ends of the spectrum really. Definitely when I was playing to get fired up. Definitely when I was manager to calm myself down.

Presenter5:21

Let's get started. Tell us about your first choice today. What have you gone for and why?

Gareth Southgate OBE5:25

This is Bruce Hornsby and the Range, the way it is. Anybody of my age, so growing up in the early 80s, whenever I listened to final score and the results were being read or the league tables, this tune for about two or three years was playing in the background and it was synonymous with five o'clock on a Saturday, hearing the results come in, looking at the league tables. But I didn't know at the time, you know, what is this tune? I love the backing track.

Presenter5:53

Yes, it would be a bit tricky to find out in those days as well, pre-internet.

Gareth Southgate OBE5:57

There was no Shazam or whatever other apps people use. And then eventually found out that it was this track. And of course the lyrics are powerful in terms of equality and opportunity. But I love the record. I do like piano as a background. It's one of those things that I'd say at this stage of my life, oh, I wish I'd learned how to play that or play the guitar. But that's not going to happen because I've promised myself that for decades. So this record I really enjoy listening to.

Presenter5:59

Yeah.

Presenter6:01

So

Speaker 46:44

Turn it up.

Speaker 46:45

Long in time waiting for the welfare dynamic

Speaker 46:49

They can't buy a job

Speaker 46:53

A man in the slips and hurries by as he catches the portal

Presenter6:57

Bruce Hornsby and the Range, the way it is. So Gareth Southgate, let's go back to your early years, shall we? You were born in Watford in nineteen seventy to Clive and Barbara. Now am I right in thinking that they met through sport?

Gareth Southgate OBE7:11

They did actually, yeah, they both went to the English Schools Athletics Championships which you had to qualify for your county basically. So dad was a javelin thrower, mum did the hurdles. Much made a haven. Yeah, yeah. That was the first time they met and stayed in touch and so there was always a bit of a sporting background at home.

Presenter7:22

Much greater heaven.

Presenter7:32

Was that important in the family? Did it encourage you and your sister?

Gareth Southgate OBE7:35

Where I was blessed with my parents, they were supportive without being pushy. Dad, in particular, you know, dad's watching football, it can be really difficult for kids that are playing. You know, if you watch any Sunday league football or Saturday morning football, you'll see parents living their lives through their kids. And my dad was never like that. You know, we never had that conversation in the car on the way home about, you know, what were you doing there and why didn't you score this or why didn't you pass there? So he always had that sort of coaching background because he used to coach athletics. Okay. Yeah, that was so important for me. I didn't know it at the time, but it allowed me to develop and find my own way. And but of course, you can't have a career in sport or it's very difficult without somebody being able to get you to places and being supportive when you go home. So whether that's mum or dad or both. And I was blessed to have both. So it was nice as I grew up for them to be able to then, having stood on so many touchlines, be able to go to Wembley and watch games.

Presenter7:54

You know, we

Speaker 48:07

Okay.

Gareth Southgate OBE8:36

Live right the way through the journey really.

Presenter8:38

And what did they do for a living when you were growing up?

Gareth Southgate OBE8:41

Well mum gave up work to bring me up but she she then went back to work helping at local school first as a dinner lady but then helping kids with the reading difficulties and she sort of got more qualified to be able to do that. Dad for years worked for IBM in sort of building services, building management, so his background was in the building industry but then he managed those offices that he worked at.

Presenter9:07

So you moved around quite a lot as a kid. Was was that due to your dad's job?

Gareth Southgate OBE9:10

Yeah, so we moved to Lancashire when I was very young. We lived in Bury, which was sort of where I started supporting Manchester United'cause th they were fairly local and then we moved to Portsmouth and then up to Crawley which was where I ended up most of my school life and yeah, most of my life growing up really.

Presenter9:28

And how are those moves for you? You know, I think it can go one of two ways for kids. You know, they either thrive on the change and learn to adapt or it can be a bit of a struggle.

Gareth Southgate OBE9:37

Generally speaking I'm a bit more of an introvert. I like my own space but I got used to having to make connections with people and I think when I went and played football and joined new teams and moved clubs I wasn't worried about just sticking with one or two friends. I was able to cross over dressing rooms and definitely as a captain that helped me to sort of connect teams together I think.

Presenter9:52

Yeah.

Presenter9:59

Was it always football first few?

Gareth Southgate OBE10:00

Yeah, I mean I also did a bit of athletics so I triple jumped and won the county schools when I was about 14 but then I developed Osgood Schlatters as a which is like a growing pain in the knees and yeah ultimately I had to stop doing all sport for three four months when I was about 13, 14 and it quickly became apparent that actually, okay, no point in doing this triple jumping if I want to play football I can't put that strain through my ankles and knees. But I love watching any different sports really.

Presenter10:13

And

Presenter10:25

Never.

Presenter10:35

Gareth, we're going to go to the music now. It's got to make room for your second disc today. What's it going to be and why are you taking it with you to your desert island?

Gareth Southgate OBE10:43

When I was growing up, one of the house moves we had, I remember mum and dad had a collection of 78s and I tripped and fell and shattered virtually their whole collection of 78s. So there was a period where there was a l more limited range of music in the house. If I think about growing up and the soundtrack, it was more often the Carpenters. I particularly like Rainy Days and Mondays. That would be my favourite of their track.

Presenter10:54

Yeah.

Presenter11:10

So where does this take you back to when you hear it?

Gareth Southgate OBE11:13

a place of warmth and love. One of the stabilizing factors in my life was that relationship with mum and dad where home was safe and I know that's not the case for everybody but I have that warm feeling when I hear this record'cause it just takes me back to being young and being in in the house and feeling safe really.

Presenter11:21

Okay.

Speaker 411:32

Talking to myself and feeling old

Speaker 411:38

Sometimes I'd like to quit

Speaker 411:41

Nothing ever seems to fit

Speaker 411:45

Hang it around

Speaker 411:48

Nothing to do but frown

Speaker 411:51

Rainy days and Mondays always get me dressed

Presenter12:01

The Carpenters and Rainy Days and Mondays. So Gareth Southgate, as you said, you were a supporting man you as a kid. You picked them up along your journey. Who are your football heroes?

Gareth Southgate OBE12:11

Well Brian Robson was captain of Manchester United and England at the time, so he was a big hero. And also Steve Coppel, who played on the wing for United at that time, who actually was my first manager at Crystal Palace. So even when I meet him now, sort of thirty-five years on, I'm still a little bit in awe of him. Still feel I should call him boss and

Presenter12:31

No.

Presenter12:34

That must have been a pinch member to beaten him

Gareth Southgate OBE12:35

To beat him for the first time. Definitely. But of course you quickly get into that rhythm of, okay, it's not important that he was a player, but I've got to impress him as a manager. And I found that transition from schoolboy football to professional football quite difficult. I wasn't physically very strong and I didn't have as much resilience, of course, at that age. And it's a tough world. You know, professional sport is a tough, tough world. And it goes from being something that you do for fun and that you love every time you go out to play to all of a sudden it's your job and that does become quite a significant difference actually.

Presenter13:12

Tell me about the years leading up to that because you must have shone on Sports Day at school, but I'm wondering what you were like the rest of the time. How did you perform in the classroom?

Gareth Southgate OBE13:18

What you were like

Gareth Southgate OBE13:21

Not bad. I mean I've got showing my age, I've got ATO levels, so and I used to love things like history, geography. I wasn't so great at math, sciences, but humanities I really enjoyed. I was determined, so you know, if ever there were setbacks, I mean I had setbacks as a young player, I was released at sort of 13, 14 by Southampton. I always wanted to prove people wrong. I suppose it's something that we probably all carry with us right throughout our lives, really. There's enough people that write you off at different times of your life and you use that as motivation to inspire you moving forward.

Presenter13:55

Yeah.

Presenter13:59

So as a young lad, at at what point did you think that you could turn professional and that that football could be a viable career for you?

Gareth Southgate OBE14:08

Well really having left Southampton and that sounds like that was my choice which is certainly

Presenter14:13

So this is Southampton Academy, so you've got

Gareth Southgate OBE14:15

Yeah, well you didn't have an academy in those days so they had a centre, used to train one night a week at a centre in Crawley near where I lived, which was quite forward thinking. Southampton also had a centre in Newcastle, which was why Alan Shearer ended up there as a kid. So um so they had a very good youth system which meant that I wasn't good enough for it. So you'd been spotted?

Presenter14:22

Which was

Presenter14:37

But then you were

Gareth Southgate OBE14:37

It was then released and I wouldn't say I was bitter about that, but I've still got the letter at home tucked away in a drawer.

Presenter14:45

And obviously you did come back from it, but how did you do it? What did it take?

Gareth Southgate OBE14:48

I guess I developed a bit more resilience. I grew quite a bit, 14, 15.

Presenter14:53

Because you'd been small on the team, hadn't you?

Gareth Southgate OBE14:55

Yeah, I'd been. I mean, not a tiny dot, but, you know, a skinny teenager. And.

Presenter15:01

And

Gareth Southgate OBE15:02

You know, I'm just over six foot now.

Presenter15:04

That must have been tough to tell your parents that after all of those picking you up from football practice, taking you to fixtures on the weekends and stuff, that maybe it wasn't going to happen. How did they react?

Gareth Southgate OBE15:14

So it was more they were disappointed that my dream might have disappeared for a brief period. But mum was also thinking, well, that's great, because I think you should be staying at school to take A-levels anyway and get a proper job. And do you realise how few kids make it? And so all those sorts of conversations were going on in our house, really.

Presenter15:25

Sydney Wyng

Presenter15:33

And were you tuned into that? Were you looking at plan B? Or were you thinking, no, I'm going to make it? Absolutely.

Gareth Southgate OBE15:40

Those that end up having careers in the game have probably had that belief and that's why they end up getting there. But I also knew that there had to be an option if I didn't make it. So that was why mum and dad always pushed, you've got to work hard at school. And it was only the year I had at Crystal Palace between sort of 15, 16, where I started playing in their youth team. So they had a first team, a reserve team, and then youth team. And I was in, that would have been under 18s. And then after Christmas, they started talking to me about signing as, well, it was an apprentice, but you were on the YTS scheme in those days. So £27.50 a week plus your travel expenses. Yeah, all figures that stick in your mind because I knew where every pound had to go. So that was when it suddenly, oh, okay, there's a job here. This is something which we might be able to go and achieve.

Presenter15:54

And it was

Presenter16:22

Same money.

Presenter16:35

Well, I want to ask about that, Gareth, but first I want to hear your third choice, if you wouldn't mind. What are you going to treat us to next?

Gareth Southgate OBE16:41

This is a track that I went on a football tour, not with my district actually, but I got invited to go with another district when I was about, well must have been 14, 15. And we were in Germany and one of the lads had this album and it ended up being the first album I bought. Tears for Fears, the album was Songs from the Big Chair. And I mean it's a well-known track. Everybody wants to rule the world so you hear it a lot. But the whole album in my head was, I could remember it from that trip where we were away playing football in sleeping bags on the floor of a community centre somewhere. So really luxurious memories, but it sticks with me when I hear these tracks.

Speaker 417:27

Don't turn any better

Speaker 417:31

Even while we slay

Speaker 417:36

We were born to acting on your best behaviour. Turn your back upon nature. Everybody

Presenter17:53

Tears for fears. Everybody wants to rule the world. So Gareth Southgate, after Southampton, you moved to Crystal Palace Academy and you started your footballing career as a YTS apprentice on twenty seven pounds fifty a week.

Gareth Southgate OBE18:05

In those days they probably took on between eight and ten players a year and you knew that at Palace they could only afford to keep two. So you were competing with the lads that you were playing with in the youth team and you knew that okay there's only two spots here and I've got to outrun the others and out work the others and play better than the others.

Presenter18:25

How is that with the group dynamics?

Gareth Southgate OBE18:27

Well, everybody just sort of accepted it for what it was as they do now, really. I knew if I could keep improving, then one of those two contracts could be mine. So that was always the mindset, really.

Presenter18:37

There were jobs to do as well, like cleaning boots and things like that. That was part of what you did back then.

Gareth Southgate OBE18:42

Yeah, the club didn't employ a load of cleaners to come and do the training ground. You went in, you had responsibility for the three players in the first team to clean their boots and make sure they were ready. And then you had a dressing room to mop or the kitchen to mop and sweep out and helping the groundsman out. You know, you'll hear a lot of old players talk about this being part of the game that should still be there. But I do think it actually gave you a great connection with the first team. You know, it meant you interacted more with the first team.

Presenter19:11

Uh

Presenter19:12

You were earmarked as a leader very early on. I mean, you were made captain of Crystal Palace when you were just twenty three and led the team to win the first Division Championship that season. What was it like captaining? How did you adjust when lots of the players were older than you were?

Gareth Southgate OBE19:26

Hm. Well, I found that hard. When I was younger they made me the captain'cause I was the most sensible.

Gareth Southgate OBE19:32

Well in fact going back to school

Presenter19:32

Yeah.

Presenter19:33

The look on your face tells me that that's

Presenter19:37

Perhaps a back-handed thing.

Gareth Southgate OBE19:39

It certainly wasn't because of any particular attributes I had at that time. But once you start to be a captain and you realise some of the responsibilities that it brings and the situations it puts you in, then you do start to develop some leadership qualities. And by having that experience, that allowed me to grow a bit. But I was as a 23-year-old, 24-year-old, I was immediately thinking, well, what do the senior players think of this? You know, one of the reasons I was captain at Crystal Palace was the manager at the time, Alan Smith, who has been an amazing mentor for me through my life. He was my youth coach, so he knew me. He trusted me completely. He knew what I could bring. So that then was a challenge. And immediately I was trying to make sure I had the respect of everybody and not overstep the mark when I was talking to the more senior players and try and make sure that, firstly, as a captain, you've got to play well, earn your place in the team and earn respect that way. But I probably used to think I've got to be winning the running and winning every challenge at that end. And if they're going out on the night out, I've got to be the last one up. So I was probably trying to be the last one in the bar and the first one in the running. And of course... They don't really go together. They don't. Well, now I'm the last one in the running and the first one home at the bar. So that's how life changes for you, really.

Presenter20:04

Mm-hmm.

Presenter20:29

In trial

Presenter20:51

Do you want me to go?

Presenter21:00

It's time to make room for some more music, Gareth. It's your fourth choice. What are we going to hear next?

Gareth Southgate OBE21:05

We talked a little bit about Crystal Palace and we had a couple of pre-season trips to Portugal and I also had a couple of holidays there where there was a bar that we used to go in and at the end of the night the band would play this track. So it's The Whole of the Moon by the Water Boys and it just became a thing that we did as a team, you know, right, we're all heading to this bar and we're going to stay for the last track and the band would play and we all know all the words so we're all going to join in and lads that played with me in that era would recognize this song from that period I suppose of our early twenties.

Presenter21:38

It's truly anthemic, this one. Who would you have had your arms around? Who's there with you on the dance floor?

Gareth Southgate OBE21:43

Well, my best man is now the manager at Bromley, a lad called Andy Woodman, and uh yeah, generally he would have been my sidekick at these moments.

Speaker 421:57

A

Speaker 422:01

While you just stayed in your room

Speaker 422:04

I saw the crescent.

Speaker 422:10

He saw the whole of the movie.

Speaker 422:15

The heart of the moon

Presenter22:24

The Water Boys and the Whole of the Moon

Presenter22:28

So, Gareth Southgate, after your time at Crystal Palace in 1995, you moved to Aston Villa for a fee of two and a half million pounds, which seems like a bit of a bargain now.

Gareth Southgate OBE22:37

It was actually a club record at the time.

Presenter22:39

Where am I doing right now?

Gareth Southgate OBE22:40

Thank you.

Presenter22:41

The British tabloid press were relentless in their pursuit of footballer stories at the time, but you managed to keep yourself to yourself and stay out of the papers. How did you do it?

Gareth Southgate OBE22:52

Well, I was a bit dull of an old he had this

Presenter22:56

Gareth, is it true that when you first spotted your wife Alison, she was working in a clothes shop and you made several trips there trying to pluck up the courage to talk to her, and you ended up buying things you didn't need?

Gareth Southgate OBE23:06

Yeah, I mean I was uh hopeless at all that sort of thing really. So, yeah, I definitely had a nice range of jumpers and shirts that I didn't particularly need or want, but I was twenty six, just coming up twenty seven when I got married and knew that wanted to be with her for the rest of my life and that's where we we're still at.

Presenter23:24

So nineteen ninety six was a pivotal year for you, Gareth. Villa went on to win the League Cup, and it was also the year that the Euros took place in England. Terry Venables was the manager at that time. How did he prepare you for the tournament?

Gareth Southgate OBE23:39

Well firstly he was an amazing manager. I mean he'd been the manager of Barcelona before he was England manager and it was an excellent coaching team. We were so well prepared. He was a warm guy and a lot of the things I remembered about playing for England and how I wanted the atmosphere around playing for England to be came from the period I had playing under him really.

Presenter24:02

And speaking of atmosphere, I mean, it was all over the country that year, wasn't it? What was Euros fever like from your point of view?

Gareth Southgate OBE24:10

It was my first season playing for England. The standout game was when we beat Holland 4-1, which would be one of the best England performances for anybody that's been alive for that period of time. That would be one of the special nights, I think.

Presenter24:24

But of course, there was agony as well as ecstasy. England reached the semi final, played Germany and then ultimately were knocked out by penalty shootout. So you stepped up to take a penalty, penalty number six. What are your memories of that match?

Gareth Southgate OBE24:39

Well, that we played well during the game and that there were two really big chances towards the end of extra time that we didn't quite connect with. We had won a penalty shootout the Saturday before in the quarterfinals against Spain. And then I just remember Brian Robson coming to me in the gap at the end of the game saying, you know, if the penalties goes to number six, are you happy to take a penalty? And because I'd been a captain all my life and... had a sense of responsibility, you know, yeah, no problem. But I hadn't, I'd only taken one previously and that was at Palace and the keeper had saved it. So we weren't in an era where a lot of work was done on penalties really. You know, not many games went to penalties. FA Cup ties used to go to replays and a second replay rather than penalty shootouts as they do now. I'd say it was the only thing that we hadn't prepared to a really high level in the coaching area. And ultimately, you know, I wasn't able to execute a skill under pressure. That's what it boiled down to. People talk about penalties being luck, but that's not how I see it. That's not what I took from it when I was coaching my teams subsequently. You're then living with the fallout from being the guy that has ultimately missed the penalty that's cost us a place in the final.

Presenter25:20

You know

Presenter25:58

And what was that like for you, just a few caps into your England career?

Gareth Southgate OBE26:02

I didn't know where to go with it really because I didn't have the context that I have now. You know, I know when we lost the Euros in final in 21, I don't for one minute think about the reason being the players that missed the penalties. You know, we had 120 minutes to win the game. It was my decision to put them in that situation. So I've said to those boys, all of them, you know, that's not how I view that night.

Presenter26:13

Mm-hmm.

Gareth Southgate OBE26:29

But it's still how I view 96 in my head because I was the player then. And I struggled to move on from it. In those days, you didn't have a team of psychologists. I just remember going home from the tournament and all the media are parked on our driveway. I mean, we lived in Sutton Coldfield in a cul-de-sac, so all the neighbours had got them because they were all parked all over their gardens and things like that. And for two days, almost frozen because we were sat in the house, didn't want to go out. But there was no sort of aftercare or support because nobody had thought about it in those days, really. You know, once you've been through that professionally, you're probably going to never going to have to face anything as tough as that again. So that then does give you confidence later in your life.

Presenter26:29

But

Presenter26:32

Because I was the player.

Presenter27:10

So

Presenter27:15

I wonder as well about that idea of having been through that experience yourself, which must have been crushing in the moment, but then to manage the England team and to know that the players that you're taking care of, they're going to face the same reaction if they miss a penalty with all the extra pressure of social media these days too. You must have been able to bring a lot more empathy to that experience than you would have otherwise.

Gareth Southgate OBE27:37

I had to support those players at that time and then offer them whatever support they needed and that was at different levels and you know my first thought was got to protect them. Then overnight you know they suffered a lot of racism as well so the following day when I was speaking with the media I was very clear that we've been on this amazing journey together as a team but it's not acceptable that now we're knocked out all of a sudden everybody fractures and the nation fractures and the public generally saw that that wasn't an acceptable reaction and there was a lot more positivity then towards the boys which is as it should have been but you've got to help them that's what coaching is about.

Speaker 427:59

Uh

Presenter28:10

And that

Presenter28:18

Alright Gareth, time for some more music. Disc number five. What are we gonna hear?

Gareth Southgate OBE28:22

You two have probably been my favourite band and that's quite hard to pick out which of their tracks was favourite. I mean I loved the whole Joshua Tree album but I've chosen one and I actually like the version with Mary J. Blige in it as well and I like the message in it of basically we've got to find a way to get on and live together.

Speaker 428:48

One life, one hands, one knee.

Speaker 428:53

Nice.

Speaker 428:56

On love get to Sherry Lee's darling.

Speaker 429:03

Don't care for it.

Speaker 429:10

Oh, very oh.

Presenter29:15

YouTube with Mary J. Blige and one.

Presenter29:19

So Gareth Southgate, after a successful time with Aston Villa, you moved to Middlesbrough. You eventually became the manager there. How difficult was that transition from player to coach?

Gareth Southgate OBE29:29

Well firstly it was overnight, which isn't a path I would recommend to any aspiring coach. Yeah without doubt that was the most difficult step up that I've ever experienced because you're starting again, you're starting a new career. Of course you understand football and you understand lots about the game but the skills that you need, the experiences that you need are all just completely different.

Presenter29:41

Yeah.

Presenter29:55

And you hadn't even finished your qualifications.

Gareth Southgate OBE29:57

No, I still needed to go through my UE for A and my pro licence and you know people would look at it and say after three years Middlesbrough were relegated and they kind of dismiss your ability to run a Premier League club. But finishing 12th and 13th in the league in my first two seasons with Middlesbrough was without a doubt as I look back the biggest achievement of my life because everything was new, everything was stressful and I'd literally walked off the pitch. So I was lucky I had support of some really good coaches around me because it would have been possible on my own.

Presenter30:31

Gareth, in twenty thirteen you you went on to become the manager of the England Under Twenty Ones. I wonder what your most useful experiences as a player were when it came to moving into coaching?

Gareth Southgate OBE30:42

Well, I think you have empathy with players. You know how difficult it is. You know what performance needs to look like. I played with some of the best players in the world and against some of the best players in the world. So you knew that sometimes their world was a bit different as well. And with young players, you know the journey. So even if you're a junior international under 15 or under 21, you're not guaranteed to have a career even in professional sport. You recognise all of that. I joined the FA at that time because I wanted to help make a difference to English football. We kept getting knocked out of tournaments earlier than we wanted. And I was really fortunate to have the opportunity to coach the under 21s, but also oversee the other junior teams as well. You've often got young men who need mentoring, need guiding in their life. So yes, there's the football bit, but there's also this bit of influencing them as they grow up. And with the national team, you've got that added responsibility that we're ambassadors for our country when we travel. We're representing our country, so it's a sign of excellence, but also the whole public are looking at you to see how this is going to operate. And they expect to see endeavour, they expect to see effort, but also they expect a certain way of carrying yourself.

Presenter31:17

Hmm.

Presenter32:01

Careth, it's time to go to the music. Your next choice, if you would. Your sixth to day.

Gareth Southgate OBE32:06

Both the last Euros tournaments, we were very lucky to be able to ask Ed Sheeran to come in and play for the players. That was a bit bizarre in 21 because we were still in slightly restricted COVID time. So how did that work? Well, we were okay because we were outside, but I remember we had two players, Mason Mount and Ben Chilwell, who they had to be isolated because they'd broken a thing in the tunnel. They'd been in the tunnel for too long with another player. So they had to watch from their bedroom in the hotel looking out at the rest of us, having a beer and Ed playing his guitar. So quite bizarre thing, really. But I have to say Ed was brilliant and his music connects with everybody in the team. He's a big football fan as well, of course. And why have you chosen this track? Well, Shape of View, I think, is my favourite track of his. And I've gone for the version with Stormsey because I think he's another amazing British artist. Reasons to be proud of our nation. Music talent is one of those things. And to see young people like these two able to be worldwide superstars is just, yeah, it's brilliant to watch.

Presenter32:18

Granted.

Presenter32:34

The rest of us have

Presenter32:48

And why have you chosen this track?

Speaker 433:14

I'm in love with your body every day

Speaker 333:19

I gotta tell you I'm in love with your shape. You said the mother brothers couldn't really juggle your weight and you were shy in the beginning, used to cover your face. You got that sweet, sweet love, and I'm a sucker for cake. I know, girl, you got a body they will kill for. Love you through whatever, who you tryna skip a meal for? Girl, you're too precious, why you tryna split the bill for? I ain't even guessing, they should have you up on billboards. That's all talking, you can go to work killing.

Presenter33:42

Ed Sheerand with Stormsey, Shape of You. Gareth Southgate, in twenty sixteen you were appointed as manager of the England men's football team, a post you had for eight years, and you held so many players' dreams in your hands. How did you manage to tell them when they hadn't been selected for the squad?

Gareth Southgate OBE34:02

Without doubt, that's the worst part about being a manager or a coach, because everybody has the dream and everybody wants to play. And of course, all of the players are huge stars at their clubs. And then when they're with England, very often they've got to be the supporting act or they don't even make the squad. So I always try to do that as respectfully as possible. But however well you think you've done it for the receiver of that news, it's a moment they're never going to forget and quite possibly will never forgive you for. So you've also got to understand that, really.

Presenter34:35

But

Presenter34:38

In twenty twenty one, ahead of the delayed twenty twenty Euro Championships, you wrote an open letter to English football fans, and it spoke very powerfully of your expectations of the team and of the country. What were you hoping to achieve by writing it?

Gareth Southgate OBE34:52

It was a consequence of an interview I gave where I was asked about my feelings for being English, my thoughts about what we are as a country and also there was definitely the moment where we'd experienced some racism as a team for example. We played away in Bulgaria and I felt that we'd dealt with that night as well as we could as a group, the lead into it, what happened on the night. I felt we supported the players in a better way than we had in the past and going into that Euros we'd had a big discussion as a team about whether we should take the knee and heard the views of the players and that of course as many people come up and thank me for that. We also alienated and I alienated people that were supportive of me prior to that. But I felt it was an important message for young people in our country, people of all communities, because the shirt is about the whole of our country and about every community and I think we started to connect more communities to the England team than had been the case in the past.

Presenter34:57

Mm

Presenter35:31

Yeah.

Presenter36:00

The letter actually inspired a a play at the National Theatre. It was written by former castaway here, James Graham. Did you get to go and see it? Or would it have been too weird?

Gareth Southgate OBE36:08

Or would it have been too weird? I didn't, yeah, I'd have found that difficult. I mean, the casting of Joseph Fiennes was very generous, really.

Gareth Southgate OBE36:16

So I know that people who've been loved it and I think it took a different audience to the theatre as well from what I can make out.

Presenter36:23

Well, it was just one facet of a summer that really resonated with people and an approach that did. I mean, tell me a little bit about that, the feeling of leading England into a major tournament, knowing that the whole country has come together to watch.

Gareth Southgate OBE36:37

It's hard to talk about that without talking about what it meant watching England as a kid, what it meant watching this come so close so many times, living through the history of missing a penalty myself, living through being in a pub watching games as a sort of teenager. So you carry all that with you? Well you do because you know that every time you walk out as the England manager, you've had all those managers that have been before you, you've seen them suffer, how the media had dealt with them. You know, even some of the best people I've met in my life, like Sir Bobby Robson and Graham Taylor, who were amazing human beings. So you know all that history is there and also then the pride of representing your own country and what that means. So you're carrying all of that when the national anthem's playing and I'm standing singing it. I'm thinking about all of those things really and it's an absolute privilege to be able to be in that position in those moments.

Presenter36:56

So you carry all that with you.

Presenter37:35

You came so close to the holy grail of a major tournament win for England. How often do you think back to past games? You said that, you know, ninety six there's still part of you that hasn't quite let that go.

Gareth Southgate OBE37:44

Mm-hmm.

Presenter37:47

What about the the more recent losses?

Gareth Southgate OBE37:50

I suppose too. Yeah, there are moments where you see pictures or you see video montages and but also that chapter in my life is closed now. You know, it will always live with me. There'll always be part of it that is hard to give up. And I've also got to recognise that the team now has to go on and the organisation has to go on and I've got to give them space as much as possible. So you know, I'm sure there will be times in the future where I'm quoted about the team. But I'm going to try to avoid that as much as I can because inevitably your words will be used. And yeah, I've been the man in that seat and I would never want to be in the way and making performance for them more difficult.

Presenter37:50

Other winds too.

Presenter38:23

Because it

Presenter38:36

Let's have a break for some music, Gareth. Your seventh choice. What are we going to hear?

Gareth Southgate OBE38:40

Another amazing British artist who I got to see in one of those nights with, so Adele, and the track I've chosen is someone like you. And I kept playing it towards the end of the last Euros because I knew I was going to be leaving. I'd made my mind up that it was time for change on all sides. And there are so many of the words within it that, yeah, even if I hear it today, it relates to my relationship with England and their relationship to me and how I feel about it all really.

Presenter39:12

So leaving someone who's once in a lifetime behind.

Gareth Southgate OBE39:15

Yeah, and you know, they've got to move on and you wish them the best and there are regrets but they're actually memories that were made and you know there are so many lines within it that really resonate with me.

Speaker 439:27

I hate to turn up out of the blue uninvited but I couldn't stay away I couldn't fight it I had hoped you'd see my face And that you'd be reminded that for me It isn't over

Speaker 439:43

Never mind, I'll find someone like you. I wish nothing but the best of you to die.

Presenter39:58

Adele and someone like you. Gareth Southgate, going back to your days as a player, you would have had matches on Boxing Day and New Year's Day. I mean, Christmas must have been quite work focused for you back then.

Gareth Southgate OBE40:10

Oh completely. Yeah, don't miss any of that. Normally players at football clubs, they'll leave the train on Christmas morning and then go home and have time with the family and be ready to play if they're at home the next day. But so many teams, even if they're at home now, stay in a hotel overnight. So often you're opening the presents with the kids. Then you're going into training and you don't come home Christmas night and you can be in a random part of the country playing somewhere. So I mean that is one of the moments where being a professional athlete takes you away from that family at a very important time.

Presenter40:29

So

Presenter40:49

2024 has been a huge year for you. I wonder what 2025 holds. I mean, you've given up one of the biggest jobs out there.

Gareth Southgate OBE40:52

Good.

Presenter40:57

What what do you see looking to the future? What what would you hope for this next New Year?

Gareth Southgate OBE41:02

The fact it is one of the biggest jobs, I think has meant that I've wanted to give myself more time to talk to lots of fascinating people who have been in big jobs and find out what they did after that and

Presenter41:18

So who have you approached have you talked to?

Gareth Southgate OBE41:19

Oh, well, I I don't want to betray their confidences, but you know, people have been really generous with sharing and talking about those things. And all of them have said, don't rush. I've been thirty-seven years player and coach, and I'm not against the next period of my life being something totally different.

Presenter41:42

That's exciting.

Gareth Southgate OBE41:43

No, it is. As a coach, when you've had one of the biggest jobs, how do you follow that up?

Presenter41:47

You're at the top of the ladder.

Gareth Southgate OBE41:48

Whether you're at the top of the ladder or not, others will have a view, but it's hard to follow that. And of course, with the national team, it has a higher purpose as well. But there will be challenges out there that will excite me. And as I say, that for me doesn't have to be within coaching.

Presenter41:54

Mm.

Presenter42:05

Well, speaking of challenges, Kareth, I'm about to set you one because I'm about to cast you away to the desert island. How do you feel about being all alone there? You did say you're an introvert by nature.

Gareth Southgate OBE42:09

Tipodes at U

Gareth Southgate OBE42:15

I don't mind time on my own. You know, I love being with friends and I love being with family, but I know that as I've got older, when I need to find energy, I need to go and actually give myself time and listen to music or just read. And yeah, the idea of a desert island doesn't frighten me at all.

Presenter42:35

And on the survival skills front, I did see you running down a cliff face with bare grills.

Presenter42:41

So I'm thinking you've been in the wilderness and you might have picked up a few tips.

Gareth Southgate OBE42:45

Yes, I can do that physical thing. Cooking is not a strength, so that would be a bit more of a problem.

Presenter42:51

Looking back as we have been today, I wonder what you think that young Gareth, you know, perhaps around the time you'd been let go by Southampton, thirteen, fourteen years old, what you would have made of the path that you've taken and the career that you've had?

Gareth Southgate OBE43:05

I think that's fascinating because as I sit here now, you have regrets for the finals that you didn't win and you always want more in life, don't you? So and yet if we went back to that time, it would have been a dream to imagine that I'd play for England as many times as I did and then manage England. Well, I wouldn't have thought about the management bit because that would have been too far in the past. But you know, if you were able to look ahead and say that's the life you have, and these are the countries you could visit, and this is the responsibility you could have, then I'd have settled for that at that time, that's for sure.

Presenter43:40

Well, we're going to cast you away, but not before we let you have one final disc. What's it going to be? Your eighth choice?

Gareth Southgate OBE43:46

We pieced together a montage for our players and it was a really powerful montage that talked to them about when you're an England player you have a moment in time to be able to make history and their ancestors before you and people that come after you. And the music that played was Ludovico Ainaudi. It wasn't this particular track but it got me interested in his music. More of a sort of modern classical I suppose. But again I love the piano part of it. But equally I just find it stirring and quite often on the way to games I would have had this playing in my earphones on.

Presenter44:17

Do you know?

Presenter45:28

EXPERIENCE BY LUDOVICO AINAUDI It's time to cast you away to the desert island, Gareth Southgate. I wonder what the first thing is that you'll do when you arrive?

Gareth Southgate OBE45:38

We got very good at, when we were with the national team, working out where were the right places to stay for the team to create the environment we wanted. So I'd probably recce the island and see where I was gonna pitch up and what the best place to sleep and get the feel of it all just before I j dive into something.

Presenter45:54

Just before I

Presenter45:55

Old Hubbard

Gareth Southgate OBE45:56

Yeah, exactly.

Presenter45:58

You won't be totally alone. We'll give you the books to keep you company. As always, you can have the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and one book of your choice. What will yours be?

Gareth Southgate OBE46:07

Anybody that knows me won't be surprised that it's not a work of fiction. So I love reading books on leadership. My family will hammer me because, oh, it's another self-help book. It's another learn a bit more about what you know so much about. But I am a sucker for non-fiction. I mean, I'm also in a book club with a load of dads that we met at my daughter's school. You're in a book club with dads? Yeah, well, which has forced us to read, you know, we decided we should read some fiction, some classic fiction from down the years. Cater in the Rye. The last one we read was Rebecca by Daphne De Maurier. We've read On Chezle Beach. By the way, we've read 40, 50 books over this. I mean, it's an excuse for a beer and a night out, really. Sounds great. But we have read some classic books along the way. The book that had the biggest impact on me, and actually little book club that I'm part of, Steve Peters wrote a book called The Chimp Paradox, and he basically explains how the brain works. So he was the psychologist that worked with British cycling and had such a big impact on some of the Olympians. And I just thought it was a brilliantly simple way of explaining why we react in the way we do at certain moments. And it definitely helped me to deal with other people and their little outbursts.

Presenter46:29

You're in a book club with dad.

Presenter46:32

Which has forced us to

Presenter46:41

Fourier

Presenter46:50

Yeah.

Presenter47:24

You can cogitate upon all of that, on humanity as a whole, and our impulses. You can also have a luxury item for sensory stimulation or to ease the pain of your isolation. What have you gone for?

Gareth Southgate OBE47:26

On humanity.

Gareth Southgate OBE47:35

Part of me thought I've just taken up golf again and I'm hopeless in bunkers and I should take the sand wedge that you play out of bunkers because you could practice it for months on end and improve your game. But I've also become a bit of a coffee snob. So I, some sort of, you know, a coffee machine where actually you can get to that moment mid-morning where you've done your chores, whatever they would be on the island. A bit of whittling fishing. Just sit back and a little shot of caffeine. But now I have to have it with like some sort of frothy milk.

Presenter47:40

The saddle.

Presenter47:43

Tremendously.

Presenter47:51

Mm-hmm.

Presenter47:58

Yeah.

Presenter48:05

On the island, it'll have to be solar powered, but I suppose that's my problem, not yours. And of course, I couldn't deny you a lovely cup of coffee. So I'll give you coffee machine with a frother, and we'll have to give you some long life milk as well. And if you could just save one track of the eight wonderful tunes that you've shared with us today, which would you go for?

Gareth Southgate OBE48:08

Okay, true.

Gareth Southgate OBE48:24

Well, that's so hard, but I love the Inaudi one at the end. There would be something on it about being isolated on a desert island and just having that sort of classical music, so I think that would be special in that environment.

Presenter48:37

Gareth Southgate, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Gareth Southgate OBE48:41

Thank you for inviting me.

Presenter48:54

Hello, it was lovely to chat to Gareth and I hope he's very happy on his island making his morning coffee. There are more than 2,000 programmes in our archive that you can listen to, including some of Gareth's favourite musicians, Ed Sheeran, Adele and Bonno. They've all chosen their Desert Island Discs along with another former England manager, Sir Bobby Robson. You can hear their programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Discs website. The studio manager for today's programme was Emma Hart, the production coordinator was Susie Roylance and the producer was Sarah Taylor. Join me next time when my guest will be the ballerina Marionella Nunez.

Speaker 450:01

Hello, this is Danny Robbins. Three years ago, I was told one of the scariest stories we have ever had on Uncanny. The entire room erupts. There are things flying around all over the place. In 1973, a young climber called Phil spent the most terrifying night of his life in an abandoned house in the Scottish Highlands. We're absolutely terrified. And we hear this thing going around the building.

Speaker 450:27

Now, we are going back there with Phil returning to Louis Belt, 50 years on to confront whatever he experienced there.

Speaker 450:35

There it is, Phil. Yeah, that's it alright. Poking up over the hill like a grim specter. How are you feeling? You okay? Nervous. Yeah? Yeah. Subscribe to Uncanny on Boobsy Sounds.