Cher

Speaker 30:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Presenter0:05

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were castaway to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:45

My castaway this week is the singer and actor Cher. She's the only solo artist in history to have clocked up number ones on the Billboard chart in seven consecutive decades. Her acclaimed acting career in films including Silkwood, Mask and Moonstruck has earned her an Academy Award, three Golden Globes and the Best Actress Prize at the Cannes Film Festival. She grew up in Los Angeles and started out singing back up for the Ronnettes and the Righteous Brothers when she was just a teenager, before becoming one half of Sonny and Cher with her boyfriend Sonny Bono.

Presenter1:16

Following Mick Jagger's advice, they took their act to London, where Mick assured them their bohemian look would be a hit. He was right. I got you, babe, knocked the Beatles off the top of the chart and began a love affair with the UK that would last a lifetime. Her dance floor anthem, Believe, remains the biggest selling number one by a female artist in British chart history. She's been a TV star, a fashion icon, and has collaborated with everyone from David Bowie to the Wu-Tang clan. And this year, she was inducted into the Rock'n'Roll Hall of Fame. Now in her 70s, she's still exploring new frontiers. She says, All my adult life, I've had people telling me who I am. Sometimes the me they tell me I am is fabulous. At other times, that me is worse than garbage. They don't bother asking who I think I am because they already know better. I'm Cartoon Cher. End of story. Cher, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you. We're so thrilled to have you here. And of course, today is all about what you think, who you are, according to you. What are the most common misconceptions that people have?

Cher2:18

Well, I think that sometimes because of what I wear or not what I've done, but because sometimes I can seem really frivolous. I like being who I am and what I am and that encompasses so many things. I'm just not one thing. But I think maybe people don't know that I'm kind of shy when I'm not working.

Presenter2:38

Say I used to not like Cher, but I'm much more used to her now. I think she's improved. I wonder what changed.

Cher2:45

I don't know. I mean, after a while you get bored with someone, so you just go, Okay, fine, you're here. I'll let you stay.

Presenter2:52

How big a gap is there between the person and the persona?

Cher2:56

I'm all the things that I am, you know. So I'm all the things that you see, and then I'm all the things that you don't see because, you know, I'm going around in sweatpants and stuff like that, and I'm quiet.

Cher3:08

I've been on the road most of my adult life and I've just I'm just kind of me and

Cher3:14

I'm used to it.

Presenter3:16

As I mentioned, you were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame a couple of months ago, and that was a long time coming. And women have been underrepresented as inductees. They're a small fraction considering their contribution. Do you hope that your induction opens up?

Cher3:29

I don't know that that's going to do it, but I just the thing I'm proud about is to be with the people that I respect. It's not about all the other stuff, but I'm proud to be with them.

Cher3:40

And that's what it means to

Presenter3:40

To be.

Cher3:41

Uh

Presenter3:41

Well, it's fantastic to see you up there. And of course, we're talking music today. You're going to be sharing your Desert Island discs with us. I cannot wait to dive into your first, so let's go for it. Tell me about the first track that you've chosen today.

Cher3:54

It's A Whiter Shade of Pale by Prokhil Harrim. The first time I heard it.

Cher3:59

First I was singing, what are they saying? But then as it went on, I didn't care. And then I just love, I just like the sound. Music can be anything. Music doesn't need explanation. It doesn't need anything. So it's the feeling. Music is the feeling. And that wouldn't have been Sonny's favorite song. Sunny was more middle of the road.

Speaker 24:17

Hmm.

Cher4:20

He wanted to hear the lyrics and, you know, but I just thought it was genius.

Speaker 24:24

We skip the life and then go

Speaker 24:30

Turned cartwheels cross the floor

Speaker 24:37

I was feeling kinda seasick.

Speaker 24:43

The crowd called out for more

Speaker 24:49

The room was humming harder.

Presenter4:53

A whiter shade of pale. Procul Haram. So Cher, you were born Sheryl in Sarkeesia in nineteen forty six in El Centro, California. Your mother was a singer. She later became an actress and was known professionally as Georgia Holt. I know that you credit her with a lot of your success. What characteristics come to mind when you think about your mum?

Cher5:13

Yeah.

Presenter5:13

Yeah.

Cher5:13

Well, my mom was tough, and she was funny.

Cher5:17

And she was smart.

Cher5:20

And we fought lots, you know, when I was young too. I mean, I was like the only nine-year-old fighting with their mother, but not in the way like I could like, my mom would kill you if you dropped a piece of gum on the on the floor. I mean, she had like these things that really bothered her, but you know, talking back. So I never talked back to her. I knew the way to get to her was stop talking completely and just answer, Yes, mother, no, mother, okay, mother. And it drove her crazy.

Presenter5:47

Your mother was only nineteen when she married your father, John, an Armenian American truck driver, so you've said they weren't a great match, and I think she was planning on leaving when she found out she was pregnant.

Cher5:57

Right. My mom was very like my mom thought you'd get pregnant by French kissing, okay? She was kind of naïve. Sh she she liked him'cause he was a good dancer. It was the war and then

Cher6:09

She married him.

Cher6:10

And then she got pregnant. And then he spirited us away to Scranton, Pennsylvania. And he said he was going to New York. He had some business and he would come right back and he never came back. He put me in an orphanage before he left. And then my mom got a job in an all-night diner. So when he put you in an orphanage to be looked after temporarily? Well, yes, because he didn't leave my mom money and he said I'll be back in a couple of weeks and this'll be a good place for her while you got while you have a job.

Presenter6:38

So she went out to work in an all-night diner, you said. That must have been so tough. Her, did she get to come and see you?

Cher6:43

She'd come once a week, but then she got sick and she missed a week and they wouldn't let her see me again.

Cher6:50

That must have been Devon.

Presenter6:50

Uh

Cher6:51

And then she wanted to take me home.

Presenter6:51

That's a part.

Cher6:53

And the Mother Superior just said, No, you're not a fit mother. And so she finally met a congressman who helped her.

Presenter7:02

And that was how she got you back.

Presenter7:05

Did she tell you how long you were in the orphanage for? How long they kept you?

Cher7:08

All I know is I wasn't walking, I wasn't standing, and then she said the last time she saw me I was walking around the crib, but holding on.

Presenter7:17

Mm. So it must have been a few months at least.

Cher7:19

Yeah.

Presenter7:20

So your father had exited the scene, and you next saw him again when you were about 11? 11.

Cher7:25

Eleven. I know yeah, I never saw him till I was eleven.

Presenter7:27

Mm. What happened?

Cher7:29

He came to visit us and I was 11 and he came to the door and I opened it and I thought, okay, that's where I got that, that's where I have that. This kind of smile that I have that it's like not a real smile, but it's kind of a sm half smile. He has no temper. My mother and my whole family had volatile tempers. I don't have one.

Presenter7:51

And what

Cher7:51

Uh What did you make of him as a person? Did you like him?

Cher7:54

I did like him. He was very charming. He was cute and um he was kind.

Cher8:00

You know? He was a mess, though. He was like, he and I made my mother was crazy to be and

Presenter8:00

You know,

Speaker 28:01

Do we

Cher8:05

They got back together and I was like, Oh Jesus, this is not good

Cher8:10

And we went to Las Vegas and he he got high and burned down the bedroom, smoking in bed.

Presenter8:16

Were you angry with him for what he put you through, what he put your mum through?

Cher8:19

You know, my mom did it, so I can't you know, he h was who he was, and she knew who he was. I mean, he wasn't a bad person, you know. I mean, he was a drug addict, and he wasn't a truck driver that he that was my grandfather's fleet of trucks, and he lost them gambling.

Presenter8:35

So he lost his father's company gall.

Cher8:36

Yeah, except for one truck.

Presenter8:36

Yeah, except for one.

Presenter8:38

Uh

Cher8:38

Oh my goodness.

Presenter8:39

But

Cher8:40

He was a nice enough guy and he had many qualities that I I'm happy that I met him because they are qualities that that I have that didn't fit anywhere in my family. So when I met him I thought, Aha

Presenter8:53

Cher, we've got to make some room for the music. It's time for your second choice today. Disc number two, what are we going to hear next and why have you chosen?

Cher8:59

Love me tender, Elvis! My Elvis, Elvis to me was like, Elvis was the beginning of me going, like I knew what I was going to do. It's like most of my friends loved him. I wanted to be him. And he was coming to Los Angeles. I said, Mom, I really want to see him, please. I was 11. And so, and we didn't have a lot of money, but my mom said, okay, fine. Because my mom loved him, which I felt great about because my girlfriends' mothers didn't like him. They didn't like all of the gyrations and stuff like that. They didn't get it. And they didn't understand the music. And my mom was, you know, knew everything about music and loved music. I mean, I thought everyone sang because when I was little, my grandfather would come to visit. He would just get out the guitar. My uncle got his guitar. And my mom and my uncle and my grandfather and I sang.

Presenter9:48

Your mum had been on the road since she was a little girl, singing.

Cher9:51

Yes. On bar stools, I mean, on bar tops. So when Elvis came to

Presenter9:55

To LA, did you get to see him? Did did your mum take

Cher9:58

Yes. It was just amazing. And he came out in his gold suit.

Cher10:03

And I'm looking at the way he came out in the dark and then they flashed the lights and

Cher10:08

I was thinking, oh my god, that must be amazing to be on that stage. And I just said, Mama, I'm going to do that.

Cher10:15

And then all the girls got up on their chairs and were screaming. And I went, Mom, can we get up on the chairs and scream? And she said, Sure, let's do it. I mean, my mom was very.

Cher10:25

She was great. I mean, she could be a real pain in the ass, but she had a spirit in her that was amazing.

Speaker 210:34

Love me tender, love me sweet.

Cher10:34

Love.

Speaker 210:41

Never let me go

Speaker 210:47

And you have made my life complete.

Speaker 210:53

And I love you so.

Speaker 210:59

Love me

Presenter11:01

Elvis Presley and Love Me Tender. So Cher, your mother went on to marry six times. She married your dad twice. Yes. And then other husbands too. And every time she would remarry, you and your little sister George Anne moved with her, of course. And she would set up home with her new husband. So over that time, the family fortunes went up and down quite a lot. Things changed a lot.

Cher11:24

It's strange. Like mim I only remember women being in the house because my mother's girlfriends, they were like they were more like a family to each other and like they would be one of s of them staying with us or two of them staying with us. It's like all of these women were the most beautiful women you've ever seen. I mean I remember once being in a restaurant, walking into a restaurant and everyone stopped talking. And I mean I'm not

Cher11:48

being hyperbolic, that's what happened. And I thought, okay

Cher11:52

This is great.

Cher11:53

It must be them. Yeah, I remember the men, but they didn't seem to be that important, except for Joe and well, my dad, you know, my sister's dad, who I consider my dad.

Cher12:03

He was important in our life and I loved him and

Cher12:07

But then Joe

Cher12:08

Collins was my my favorite one because he was so much fun.

Presenter12:12

What do you remember about those times when things were tough?

Cher12:15

They were tough, okay? I mean, they were, you know, eating the same pot of beans for a week or my I was really hard on my shoes and

Cher12:24

The souls came off of

Cher12:26

my shoes and also I got a hole in one and I had to stick paper in it and we had to put rubber bands around the the and I just begged my mother, Mom, please don't make me go to school this way you know, and she said, Chair, I have no money for shoes yet. I you gotta take your shoes off So I went barefoot my whole life, but my mom too, because you're too hard on your shoes.

Presenter12:45

So that instability and all those changes that you were living with, do you think that shaped your personality?

Cher12:51

Well, I'm sure it did. Yeah, I mean, it of course you live in conditions and y what happens around you.

Cher12:57

Also, because I've had a certain

Cher12:59

Lifestyle since I was seventeen, but in my mind, like when you have work to do, you just do it. No matter I mean, I have to be really, really sick not to do it. If there's work to be done, nine times out of ten, I'm just gonna do it.

Cher13:14

So self-sufficient. What's the

Presenter13:16

Strong work ethic. That sounds like your mum.

Cher13:20

Yeah.

Presenter13:20

Tell me a little bit more about life with her, because you've described her as unconventional. Obviously, she was a young mum, so I'm imagining that, you know, even though there were tough times, she must have been a lot of fun.

Cher13:30

She was hysterical.

Cher13:33

She was hysterical, the greatest sense of humor. And my sister, my mother, and I have the same voice. I mean, l literally, like I could call my mom and go, Hey, Mom, Bubba, Bubba, Bob, and she'd go, Gee, share.

Cher13:44

No, share mom.

Cher13:46

I mean

Cher13:47

My mom just said things in a really funny way. My mom had a great laugh and and ridiculous but great. There was a game she used to play and I mean

Cher13:56

It was a spatula,

Cher13:58

cotton pads and uh like a baking tin and she'd b blindfold you and you'd have to try to get as many in as you could. I mean and I mean, it was what you do when you are have no money and you're artistic.

Presenter14:13

Cher, it's time for Simple Music, your third choice today. What are we going to hear next and why?

Cher14:18

Oh, dream is the wish your heart makes

Cher14:21

And that was the second movie I saw and

Cher14:25

This is Cinderella. Cinderella, yeah. I mean, I was what, four?

Cher14:30

Five? I don't know how old I was, but it couldn't have I it was before my sister was born and

Cher14:35

When we got into the car, I started singing it, and I remember my mom hit my dad and said, John, she's singing it. And he went, Okay She said, John, she's singing it, she just saw it And of course my dad was like, Okay, that's great but my mom was hearing a future.

Speaker 214:56

A dream is a wish your heart makes

Speaker 215:03

When you're fast to sing

Speaker 215:10

In dreams you will lose your heartache Whatever you wish for you cheese

Presenter15:27

A Dream is a Wish Your Heart Makes, performed by Eileen Woods, from the soundtrack to Disney's Cinderella. Cher, you must have gone to quite a few schools growing up. Were you a good student?

Cher15:38

Didn't? No.

Presenter15:38

Oh.

Cher15:38

No Yeah.

Cher15:39

No, I was a terrible sc student because I couldn't read and I couldn't understand numbers. Everything I learned in school was from listening, so I s I scraped by. You were dyslexic. Right.

Presenter15:50

Right. So they wouldn't have known what that was if they knew that.

Cher15:52

My teachers would say, you know, she's very intelligent, she just doesn't apply herself.

Cher16:00

And Woe Betide, my boyfriend, who tried to teach me Army time on my car and I couldn't get it and he said he made the mistake of saying, Cher, you're just not applying yourself.

Presenter16:11

Uh oh.

Cher16:11

And there were some like experts, and I said, Let me out of the car, and I got out of the car and walked to my friend's house.

Presenter16:16

So that was the the phrase that you you don't want to hear ever again.

Cher16:19

Right, no. And I was like and I I got a really bad, I think, D minus or something like that on math, a math test, and I said, Mom, I just can't see numbers I just'cause I thought, Oh, she's gonna get really angry.

Cher16:32

She never got angry at the things that I thought she was gonna get angry at.

Cher16:36

everything else. But, um, I can't see numbers. And she said, Don't worry, baby, when you grow up, you'll have someone to do numbers for you.

Presenter16:43

She's right about that.

Presenter16:45

How did your unconventional upbringing, I wonder, affect your school days? Did you know what to make of the other kids? Was it easy to fit in?

Presenter16:52

Did you feel different?

Cher16:53

Pretty popular. You know, I was great at sports and, um, I had a good personality and I put on Oklahoma in the fourth grade. Who's in the cast? Girls.

Cher17:05

We talked one guy into being in it and then I th I think he quit.

Speaker 217:05

Couldn't get any voice.

Cher17:11

Before we went on or during the production or whatever. So I just had a bunch of girls and I was trying to do, you know.

Cher17:17

pick up a slack. I mean, it was ridiculous, but it was fourth grade. It was after school on the last day before summer and it was funny. What do you remember about performing? At some point I just let it go, you know. I just stopped looking at everybody and just w was in my own world and I have no idea. It must have been horrible.

Cher17:36

But for you as producer, director and star, how did it feel? No, I felt like I had a flop, but that was okay because it was my first time.

Presenter17:38

Stop.

Presenter17:44

And what about the dynamics at school? I know that there was a a sharing day once that you weren't into.

Cher17:51

I was little and it was in new school and I got there and I don't remember if it was summer that they were sharing or just stories they were sharing and it was like, oh, we did this and my parents did so and so and then we went to blah blah blah and blah blah blah and I was so happy and I'm happy to be back at school and I'm thinking of all this and I'm just think I mean I knew how to curse when I was three and I'm thinking this is such crap. So I just stood up and I went

Cher18:19

You know, I'm not I'm not really happy to be here. I think all you guys are stupid and I'm leaving. And I walked out the front door and went home to my grandmother's, and I told my grandmother what I'd done, and she was hysterical.

Cher18:30

She said, Baby, that's the greatest thing I've ever heard.

Presenter18:35

Was that the reaction you were expecting? Was that typical of her?

Cher18:38

The strange part of my family was

Cher18:42

their attitudes towards things that I did.

Cher18:46

They were always very supportive and even when they were crazy, like my grandmother, she just lo she was so happy with me that day, she just couldn't stop laughing and tell me how fabulous I was. You know, and usually someone would not be that your grandmother wouldn't be, okay, you walked out of school and you told them what. But my parents were I mean, all of my relatives were kind of like that.

Presenter19:09

Unconventional.

Cher19:10

Yeah, just was that way from the time I was little where people in my family just had different viewpoints th uh than regular people th like my friend's parents.

Presenter19:20

Yeah.

Cher19:20

They were like parents. Sure, it's time for disc number four. What are we going to hear next? Oh, Stevie, evil. But you know what? I was listening. Stevie was a f when I left Sunny, it was the first music that I got. So, and I don't remember which one it was, Talking Book, or I have no idea. But then we became friends, but Stevie just meant the world to me, and he's such a genius. And it's like hearing Beethoven, you know. I'm sure those chicks were like, oh, God, this guy's cool, you know, in whatever the vernacular was.

Speaker 319:49

Uh

Presenter19:49

Mm.

Cher19:52

But that's the way I felt about Stevie. Also, Stevie kind of like felt like liberation to me.

Presenter19:56

The freedom of that time. You've worked together. He sang on your album.

Cher20:01

Yeah.

Presenter20:01

Ann played harmonica.

Cher20:03

Yes, I said Stevie, you know.

Cher20:06

I'm doing this Christmas album, and I want you to sing on it. And he goes, Fine, Cher, fine. And I said, Well, it's your song. And he said, Okay, cool.

Cher20:17

And I said, Well, is that all you need to know? He said, Yeah, sure.

Cher20:21

And then he said at the end, Oh, Sherry, you want me to play harmonica?

Cher20:24

I went, Yes. And then I jumped around my room and jumped up and down on my bed. Of course.

Presenter20:29

Quite right too. Why have you chosen this track in particular? Why be it?

Cher20:32

Because it's just I mean, I could have picked ten. I started looking for this and then I just thought I'm listening to all of them and I just don't stop listening for like an hour. His lyrics are so special, but the concept, taking evil and making it into that song, it's genius.

Speaker 220:51

Uh

Cher20:51

We the

Speaker 220:54

Why have you engulfed so many hearts?

Speaker 221:01

Easy

Speaker 221:04

Eva

Speaker 221:08

Why have you destroyed so many mines?

Speaker 221:14

Leave in

Speaker 221:17

Good for

Presenter21:21

Stevie Wonder and Evil.

Presenter21:25

Cher, you met Salvatore Philip Bono, Sonny Bono, in a coffee shop in nineteen sixty two. I think you were sixteen, he was twenty seven. What were your first impressions of him?

Cher21:35

When I saw him everyone else disappeared, and he wasn't handsome, he just was so electrifying.

Cher21:41

Dressed unbelievably. I think that always gets me, but he's not.

Presenter21:45

What's he wearing?

Cher21:46

He was wearing this beautiful mohair suit and a mustard shirt with a white collar and a mustard tie, and he had this beautiful like my bracelet, but it was a chain link. But um instead of having a a clasp, he had a little watch there. It was a watch.

Cher22:03

And he had the most beautiful fingers I'd ever seen. And when he sat down, he was really charming. Also, he was coming from my back, and all of a sudden I saw people going, Hey, son, come here, Sonny, come here. No, hey, son, sit with us. And I'm thinking, Who the hell is this guy? And then I turn around, it was like that.

Presenter22:18

Turn around it was

Cher22:20

Tony and Maria moment.

Presenter22:21

I think he gave you quite a colourful account of his family background.

Cher22:25

Yes, he did.

Cher22:26

What a liar. Um

Cher22:28

He told me that his family name was had been Bonaparte, but that his father, when they came to America, changed it to Bono.

Cher22:37

No, it was you know, it was crazy.

Cher22:40

So he was building the myth, but you fell for it? Yeah, but I mean, it wasn't like I wasn't falling. I mean, he wasn't trying to impress me, he just was being stupid.

Presenter22:43

Yeah.

Presenter22:49

So you must have got on okay, because you moved in with him as a housekeeper and assistant. It was a platonic relationship at that point. How did you find living together and how did you adjust?

Cher23:00

Well, it was easy as pie because he I was just Cher, you know, I was like, he didn't know how old I was. I had lied to him and told him I was 18. And then at some point someone said, you know, I don't think Cher's 18. And he came to me, he said, okay, what's the discrepancy here? And I went, okay. You know how when you're going to lie to someone, it's like, okay. You either put your hands like that or you put your hands like that.

Speaker 223:19

You then put your hands up.

Cher23:22

And I said, Okay, I'm so I'm I'm not eighteen. I'm seventeen and May, which was about to come around the corner, which is my birthday, is coming around the corner and I'm going to be eighteen He went, Okay, of course I was seventeen.

Presenter23:36

What did your mother know about your living arrangements?

Presenter23:39

Thought I was living with the stewardess.

Presenter23:41

So you said you had a a flatmate who had you know a girl

Cher23:44

And she was always gone because she was flying all the time. And I would just throw his clothes out the window to into my friend's apartment. So if your mother popped around. Yeah, but then she and I would always say, you know, call me before you come, Mom. And then this one day she didn't, and I was getting out of the shower and knock on the door. Cher, okay.

Cher24:03

Come on in, mom, I'll be right out. You know, I'm putting my clothes on, run out. And she is I I hear her in the kitchen and she's trying to rumble through stuff and I'd thrown all of his underwear in the kitchen for some reason, in the cabinet. Like that was gonna give me away. So, um, anyway, she was like

Cher24:19

Who are you living with? and I went, Well, I'm not living with the stewardess and she said, Okay, fine, you're coming home.

Cher24:25

But I didn't go home and she told Sonny how old I was and that she was gonna put him in jail and

Cher24:31

But I was not sure she was going to do it, so I just kept staying.

Presenter24:35

Back then, Sonny was working for the producer Phil Spectre, and you ended up singing back in vocals in the studio. What was it like your first time behind a microphone?

Cher24:45

It was a surprise. So s one day Sonny had come home, I was making the bed and I'm singing away and

Cher24:52

I didn't see him.

Cher24:54

Pick his head around the

Cher24:55

Doro jam and

Cher24:58

He said, was that the radio? And I said, no. And he said, what, that you? And I said, yeah. He said, you can sing. I said, yeah. He said, no, you can sing. I said, yeah.

Cher25:06

He said, sure. No, I mean you can actually sing. And I said, yeah.

Cher25:10

And that was kind of the end of it. And then he told Philip that I could sing. So one day Darlene had car trouble. This is Darlene Love. And Philip said,

Presenter25:17

Down

Cher25:19

Sonny says you can sing, get out there and I'm about to try to explain what I feel my my vocal accomplishment is and he said I just need noise, get out there.

Presenter25:29

Is it true that Phil Spector identified the power in your voice immediately and actually had to move you off the mic?

Cher25:36

Yeah.

Cher25:37

Sure step back, sure, step back, sure step back.

Cher25:41

Darlene said if she steps back any more she's going to be in Studio B.

Cher25:45

But I mean, it was a huge joke. And I could never reduce my voice because when I started to sing I just sang and I was excited, so I guess I was too loud. I mean, I obviously I was too loud, but

Cher26:01

He put me into a place where it seemed to blend.

Presenter26:05

In those days and in that setup, I mean, the producer was all powerful and Phil Spector was already exhibiting the eccentricities and the paranoia that would only worsen over time. How did you get on with him? What kind of character was he?

Cher26:18

Well, he was

Cher26:19

eccentric, but he wasn't anything, you know. He was twenty one and a genius, you know, and rich and powerful. But I got along with him because I met him before I met Sonny.

Cher26:32

I w one out with his his best friend, you know, Tempo.

Cher26:35

And so I walk in to this, and I see this strange little man.

Cher26:41

and he asked me in French would I go to bed with him.

Cher26:45

And in French I said yeah, for money.

Cher26:47

And that was our relationship for the whole time. And Sonny used to say, Cher, please be nicer to Philip. He's my boss. Please, Cher, please.

Presenter26:56

Yeah.

Cher26:56

We take it.

Presenter26:56

You you coming back at him like that.

Cher26:58

He was surprised. I never was so deferential to Philip. He didn't really ever ruffle my feathers, and I and I never took him seriously. You know, everybody else had except Darlene, never. But Darlene and I were the only ones that just said, Oh, whatever, Philip, get over yourself.

Presenter27:16

Cher, it's time for some more music, your fifth choice today. What have you got for us, and why?

Cher27:20

Oh, you've lost that love and feeling. I sang background on it. It was the last thing I did.

Cher27:25

Sonny, me and Darlene and a bunch of tall guys, and I knew Bobby and Billy, so I was so happy and also there was a lot of people in the studio and everybody was packing up and Billy was getting ready to go in and do the vocal, and I went out to do something, and then I came back later and I walked in

Cher27:44

and there were a couple of people in the booth because Philip didn't like people, but Brian Wilson always came. So we walked back in and all of a sudden I hear the beginning of it, and we're all standing and everyone just stopped.

Cher27:58

And we just stopped and the whole world stopped and Billy was singing and we all knew that this was going to be one of the great songs.

Speaker 228:07

You're trying hard not to show it.

Speaker 228:13

But baby

Speaker 228:16

Baby, I love it.

Speaker 228:20

You lost and I believe

Speaker 228:25

Oh, that love me

Speaker 228:30

You've lost that love and freedom, now it's gone.

Presenter28:37

The Writers Brothers, you've lost that loving feeling. Cher, you and Sonny started performing together and one night he woke you up to play you a new song that he'd just written. What did you think of it?

Cher28:49

He used to do this all the time. In the middle of the night, he wrote. And so he would say, Cher, come here for a second, like I'm awake. Cher, share, come here. Okay, he's sing this. And so I would just like, okay, sing the the melody that he wanted. And then I'd go back to sleep. And then this one night

Cher29:06

He woke me up and he said, Cher, come here, I need you to listen to this and I need you to sing this. And so I'm listening and then it's like, okay. I went back to bed. Like an hour later, Cher, I need you to come here and sing this. So I went back in. I was getting pissed off. And I went back in and I said, you know, I don't think much of this song. And I went back to sleep.

Cher29:29

See which I got you, babe.

Presenter29:29

See what's up.

Presenter29:30

Yeah. When did you realize that the song had something special?

Cher29:35

Well, when we went into the studio and it sounded really good, and Sonny had done the arrangement with Harold Baptiste because there was an oboe and a bassoon on it, and Sonny thought that would be a good idea. And I thought, where did he even get the idea?

Cher29:52

How does he even know Oboe and Bassoon? You know, I mean but so it it had a fresh sound, you know. It was not like anything I mean, I don't think it's the greatest record I've ever heard, but it it captured a moment.

Speaker 229:57

Yeah.

Presenter29:57

Do you know?

Presenter30:03

And It connected with people. You were in London when it went to the top of the charts here, knocking the Beatles' help off number one. How did it feel?

Cher30:12

Well, I mean, you have to realize we left America having sold or hawked everything we had.

Cher30:18

The grown ups in America didn't want to see us on T V, so that kind of stymied everything. And Jack Good and then Mick Jagger said, If you want to be famous, if you want to be successful, go to England, they'll understand you, they'll get you.

Cher30:31

So we get over here and we go to the Playboy Club and they wouldn't let us in. Said they didn't have our they lost our reservation or they didn't have it. Sonny has a camera always with him, so he's clicking away to see, you know, that we were, you know, we were registered.

Cher30:45

So anyway, we left and we walked outside and we're walking down the street and some guy with a camera takes our picture because we looked different, but w woke up the next day and it was our picture was on the front of some newspaper. Yeah, it was great. Everyone loved us. I remember going to sweet shop and this old lady took out her autograph book and said, Would you please sign it for me? I mean, people in America I mean the kids were starting to love us, but we had no outlet, you know, we couldn't do T V. They didn't want to see us on T V.

Presenter31:18

I want to ask you about TV, because later you and Sonny would go on to host your own TV show, the Sonny and Cher Comedy Hour. You've described it as a married couple poking at each other. You had great banter between the two of you, and you gave as good as you got on camera always. But I wonder behind the scenes, how different were the dynamics? Who was in control?

Cher31:38

He was very traditional Sicilian and I don't know if that says it doesn't say everything about him for sure, but he had that kind of his dad was that way with his mom. So a patriarch. Yes.

Presenter31:51

Hmm.

Cher31:51

But but I mean it was it was it was just way too much for me to handle, but I just did, you know, until I didn't. What kind of thing? He didn't want me going anywhere, he didn't want me talking to anybody, he didn't want me having friends, he didn't want me to do anything.

Presenter31:59

What was it?

Presenter32:07

And why did you put up with it?

Cher32:10

Because uh he and I had been together for so long and I was used to him in the beginning taking care of me,'cause I was sick when I first met him and he said you could stay with me.

Cher32:22

And I was like, Oh, okay, yeah, and he said, No, I don't find you particularly attractive.

Cher32:26

which I was happy and upset about.

Cher32:29

It's just that was who he was. And he

Cher32:32

was I didn't know it until later, but he just said I always knew you'd leave.

Cher32:38

So he he was worried about losing you.

Cher32:41

But it was not that he was really interested in me that at that time, but yeah, he just didn't want he didn't want any escape routes.

Presenter32:49

The two of you went through many personal and professional highs and lows together, but in the end your relationship broke down and you walked away. Sonny filed for divorce in 1974, and when your finances were scrutinized, it turned out that all was not well with your contract. Eventually you had to pay Sonny one point four million dollars. Why?

Cher33:08

I was signed to his company and he took all of the money.

Presenter33:13

So it was a 95% he owned. He owned the company in his

Cher33:15

He owned the company and his his lawyer owned five percent.

Presenter33:19

I mean I think

Cher33:19

Nice.

Presenter33:20

That is so wildly exploitative. How did you feel when you heard that?

Cher33:26

It was pretty interesting.

Presenter33:27

Interesting question.

Presenter33:29

Fury?

Cher33:30

Yes.

Cher33:31

I was

Cher33:32

really disappointed in him and I was really angry.

Cher33:37

It was past furious, truthfully. It was just like, I'm so disappointed in you. The worst thing about it that really made me upset was that.

Speaker 233:39

It was

Cher33:45

I was signed to the company and I couldn't work without his permission.

Cher33:50

So not only was he planning to take my money, he was going to do it so I couldn't work, so I'd be forced to

Cher33:56

Let them pick up the contract.

Presenter33:58

You did forgive him, though. Why was that?

Cher34:01

You know, because we were much more than husband and wife and and I mean, I was angry with him, you know, I was angry with him. I said to him, you know, I was there with you. You know, I wasn't at home eating bonbons. I was there for the everypo all of it, you know, for the

Cher34:18

staying at Motel Six and stuff like that, and you and you're gonna take my money now because? And then he said, It's because I thought I knew you'd always go. And I said, That's not a good enough answer. So it was just like

Cher34:30

It started to be that he didn't care about me at all in in that kind of way. I was Cher, but I was not like his wife Cher.

Presenter34:38

Yeah, a product. But of course over the years things change and and he died in nineteen ninety eight and you spoke very movingly about him, gave the eulogy at at his funeral. And reflecting on that relationship, you know, you you talked about how just how significant meeting him, knowing him, was.

Cher34:48

Yeah, it's feeling

Cher34:56

Yeah, well, I mean, because without sunny there would be no share.

Presenter35:00

Cher, let's have some more music. Your sixth choice today. What is it?

Cher35:04

I can't make you love me. Bonnie Ree. I love her and she's a great musician and she's got a great voice and

Cher35:13

Plays a slide like a demon and it's just it's one of the best love songs I've ever heard.

Speaker 235:19

Cause I can't make you love me if you don't

Speaker 235:27

You can make your heart feel something it wants

Speaker 235:36

Here in the door.

Speaker 235:40

His final hour

Speaker 235:43

I will later

Speaker 235:47

I feel the power.

Presenter35:50

Bonnie Raid, I can't make you love me. Cher, I have to ask about your incredible iconic costumes, many of which were designed by your lifelong friend and collaborator, Bob Mackey. They've gone down in fashion history. There was a wonderful exhibition at the VA here in London not long ago, showing off many of them. And obviously, you know, now they are lauded, but they caused numerous scandals over the years. Did you and Bob have that intention when you were going to a fitting?

Cher36:01

Collaborator, Bob Mackey.

Cher36:21

Oh, n well, no, I wasn't really sophisticated enough.

Cher36:26

To know what we were doing. And I'm not sure Bob knew in the beginning because also we didn't have money for those outfits in the beginning for those costumes because

Cher36:37

Our budget, we were a summer replacement show, so we had no budget. We were borrowing Carol Burnett's clothes. So he had dressed her for T V Fest.

Presenter36:44

And then

Cher36:45

And then, you know, give me old gowns. But I mean, he she had great gowns too. But then

Presenter36:49

But

Cher36:50

So then he started making them a little bit cheaper so I could get them when we started our real show. And they were always CBS was always bitching about it. But then they started to notice in the ratings that my clothes were one was one of the reasons, and so then I had open budget and Bob just did what he wanted.

Presenter37:06

I mean, these days, there are wonderful kind of internet montages of your outfit reveals. You walk out in a cape and then throw it off and are wearing something fabulous underneath. Did you and Bob ever think you'd taken things too far?

Cher37:10

Yeah.

Presenter37:17

No. Yeah.

Cher37:19

But with the d with the dress.

Cher37:22

I wore it to the to the Met Gala. This is the naked dress. Yes. And I actually was naked underneath it because there was no place for anything. I mean, when I laid in the sun, I had to be naked because Bob was cutting things always in places that you didn't want any kind of

Presenter37:37

And am I right in thinking that that

Cher37:39

That fabric was actually quite flammable. Right, it was illegal in America. So it must have been called. It's called Souffel. And what you do, it's brilliant. Waina Dietrich brought it to him. So you put it on.

Presenter37:44

Yeah.

Cher37:51

And then you take a spray bottle and you spray it, and then Bob would just press it to my skin. So then it would dry on your skin, and all you could see were sequins, you couldn't see fabric.

Presenter38:03

Cher, the scrutiny that you've been under has never abated over the years. From your clothes to your appearance, you've been under the microscope for decades. Do you accept the unrealistic beauty standards that are part of the deal for women in the public eye?

Cher38:18

Yeah, it's a bitch.

Cher38:19

But, you know, I've I I'm in it, so I gotta you know, I play by the rules. I don't really I play by my own rules, but still there's a standard to keep up and if you can do it, you do it for as long as you can, because it's more fun.

Cher38:33

It sounds like

Presenter38:33

Like you acknowledge the the disparity though, the fact that it's it's not expected of men in the same way.

Cher38:39

No, but I mean What is?

Cher38:43

No, they just kinda come in in their jeans, shave or not.

Cher38:48

You know, but I mean, m men in Hollywood are are vain, you know, don't you know, that's we can't pretend.

Cher38:55

But, um, no, it's hard for women because men can get scraggly, they can get old. I see some women doing it. Helen does it really well. And Myron. And, uh

Presenter39:05

How are we doing?

Presenter39:07

Yeah.

Cher39:07

There are I do

Presenter39:08

You were with Judy and Maggie Smith and Joan Plowright on the film Tea with Mussolini, directed by Franco Zeffarelli. How did you all get along?

Cher39:18

Yeah.

Cher39:19

They'd worked with him before and they were best friends. So we're out there and we're talking and singing and Maggie. I mean, I kind of just wanted to listen to those girls because, you know, they're all kinds of stories that they're telling about being there. And all of a sudden, I look over and Joan Plowright took all her clothes off and just jumped in the water. And I thought, you know what, you go, girl.

Speaker 239:38

And I thought, you know.

Cher39:41

No, she didn't care about anything. She just wanted to be free and but I mean these girls it was like I had a scene with with Maggie and I was sweating it. I was really like having the vapors.

Cher39:54

How did you get yourself together in a moment like that? You just do it. And Maggie said, don't be ridiculous.

Presenter40:01

Let me ask you about acting, because I want to ask you about that next. At first, it was a bit of a struggle to be taken seriously, but everything changed in nineteen eighty three when you were cast in Silkwood alongside your friend Meryl Streep and Kurt Russell. How did cinema audiences react to you taking on the role?

Cher40:03

Yeah.

Cher40:21

Well, in the beginning, I mean, before the movie came out, it was horrible because Mike called and said,

Cher40:27

The trailers in

Cher40:29

In the village, and go and see it because we're getting great reactions to it. So, my sister, my manager, and I went.

Cher40:37

to one of the big theaters there, Fox, I think.

Cher40:40

And we're sitting and

Cher40:42

The name comes up and then Meryl comes up and big applause, big applause and then Curtie's name comes up, big applause, big applause and then my name comes up and the whole audience laughs. But I mean the entire audience

Cher40:55

And the first thing I thought was, they're all doing it, so it's obviously a visceral feeling that everyone's feeling at one time. And my sister was crying, and I bit the inside of my cheek for a minute. And then I thought, you know, you can't argue with what everyone's thinking, and that's okay, but this is sad. And then I called Mike and I said, you know, this is how he said, well, you know.

Presenter41:15

He's the director.

Cher41:18

They might laugh before, but he said they'll be clapping at the end.

Presenter41:22

And he was right, you were nominated for an Academy Award and you won a Golden Globe.

Presenter41:26

Let's go to the music show. It's disc number seven. What have you got for us?

Cher41:29

Oh, minute by minute.

Cher41:31

I had such a crush on it.

Presenter41:33

Oh and Michael McDonald's.

Cher41:33

Yes, oh my god.

Cher41:35

Loved him. I should have told him.

Speaker 241:55

Yeah.

Speaker 241:58

You would stay just to watch me do

Speaker 242:03

Lift away lies from you.

Presenter42:08

Minute by minute, the Doobie Brothers.

Presenter42:11

Cher, you have two sons, Chas from your marriage to Sonny and Elijah from your second marriage to musician Greg Ullman. As a parent, you've faced some challenges. Elijah's been through heroin addiction. Chas is trans, he transitioned in 2010. And all any parent wants to do is protect their children. How did you navigate those experiences, especially living in the public eye?

Cher42:34

You can do your best.

Cher42:35

And you can be supportive and you can keep trying. Yeah, Elijah is so intelligent. And the truth is, he's so bright and so smart, but it's kind of hasn't served him well because he's in that kind of

Cher42:51

Above all of us, he's li thinking ab he's thinking beyond what we're thinking, you know, but it hasn't hasn't helped him really. And I loved Gregory, so I thought, right, I will stick with him because he's going to change. And of course, there are a lot of people who do. And he tried hard. I mean, once I was so exasperated, and I said, I'm so sick of you going to rehab, and he said, So am I, but I keep going for you.

Speaker 243:04

And

Cher43:17

They got demons, and, you know, it is what it is.

Cher43:20

With my son I'm not gonna give up on him, but it's it's difficult.

Presenter43:24

And what about Chas, you know, navigating that period?

Cher43:27

It was hard. It was hard for me. It was really hard. I was so frightened. And I mean, Chaz is great. A great person.

Cher43:35

And we've always

Cher43:37

Well, we've gone in and out a couple of times, but we're we're very close. I'm close to both of them.

Presenter43:44

Share your 79 next year, which is very hard to believe.

Cher43:48

I just became seventy eight. Let's not go there.

Presenter43:50

Uh

Cher43:50

Uh

Presenter43:50

I don't want to rush you. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Cher43:52

Okay, but

Presenter43:53

But you you did once say in our culture you're supposed to grow obsolete. Now obviously this is not on the cards for you. Where does your defiant spirit and your your drive to keep working come from?

Presenter44:04

Yeah.

Cher44:05

I like it.

Cher44:06

I like creating stuff.

Cher44:08

It's like I never made a Christmas album, and then all of a sudden I did.

Cher44:12

You know, and it was fun and I'm glad I did it. And uh now I'm gonna make another album. This will probably be my last because you're not really supposed to be singing at my age.

Cher44:22

But why still breaking down? No, no, no, it's not that. It's like your voice is runs out, you know. You can't hit the high notes or whatever. Thank God. Knock on with this, whatever it is. And uh looks like wood I'm yeah, po some polyester thing, unborn linoleum. But uh yeah, I've got great songs, so I really want to try my best to do my best.

Cher44:43

Sure, you mentioned

Presenter44:43

Your Christmas album, which you released last year. It is almost Christmas. How will you be spending it? What does Christmas look like, chezer?

Cher44:51

At my house it's pretty decked out and we've got Christmas tree we've got everything. It's like all the things that I wished I would have had. But my mom made it great anyhow, so it it wasn't I never lacked for excitement. So just do all the things that you want. Santa Clauses and

Cher45:10

Like you close your eyes and you wish it to be something and then it is.

Presenter45:14

Yeah.

Cher45:14

Yeah.

Presenter45:14

Before that, though, I'm going to send you to the island. How are you feeling about it? Do you have any practical skills? Will you be able to fend for yourself?

Presenter45:23

Yeah.

Cher45:23

Probably not so much. I don't have many practical skills. God didn't put me here to be practical.

Cher45:30

But you

Presenter45:30

Yeah.

Cher45:31

Uh

Presenter45:31

Bop All the tenacity, I think you're going to be fine.

Presenter45:34

Alright, then one more track before you go if you wouldn't mind share your final choice today. What have you gone for?

Cher45:39

Sonny and Sam Cooke were really good friends, and so this change is gonna come is like I would say it's one of my all time favorite songs. Like there are some people you know that their voice comes from some other place.

Speaker 245:53

It was ball.

Speaker 245:54

Oh by the river

Speaker 245:59

In a little tent.

Speaker 246:02

Oh, and just like the river I've been running.

Cher46:02

And just laugh.

Cher46:05

Running.

Speaker 246:08

Ever since it's been a long

Speaker 246:14

A long time coming, but I know

Speaker 246:19

Change gon' come.

Presenter46:23

Sam Cooke, a change is gonna come. So Cher, it's time to cast you away. I'm gonna send you away to the island. I will give you the books to take with you, the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can choose another book. Which one would you like?

Cher46:35

The Saracen Blade by Frank Irby.

Cher46:38

That's my first book.

Cher46:40

This is the first book I ever read. Sonny gave it to me because I'd never read a book. I mean, I would try to get through my workbooks, you know, my textbooks, but never for interest. And he just said, here, try this. I think you might like it. And I just started reading it, and I just thought, this is a whole new world. This is a whole new thing. You can also have a luxury item. What would you like?

Presenter47:00

Yeah.

Cher47:01

Oh, yeah, I want my eyelash curler because my mom said if you ever are on a desert island, make sure to take an eyelash curler.

Cher47:07

Yeah.

Presenter47:07

That is very good advice. And finally, which one track would you save from the waves if they were all going to be washed away?

Cher47:14

Oh, I think Sam's change is going to come.

Presenter47:16

Unchanged.

Cher47:18

Just because I think that it would be a song that I would never get tired of listening to.

Presenter47:24

Cher, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs and Merry Christmas. Thank you, you too.

Presenter47:40

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Cher. And who doesn't need an eyelash curler on a desert island? I know I would. We've cast away many singers, including Adele and Michael Booble, who duetted with Cher on her Christmas album. Cher's friends, Dames Joan Plowright and Judy Dench, are in our back catalogue too. The studio manager for today's programme was Emma Hart, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, the production coordinator was Susie Roylance, and the producer was Paula McGindley. Next time, my guest will be the former England football manager, Gareth Southgate. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 348:25

Sean Diddy Combs has occupied a top spot in the music industry for decades. He earned his stripes during the golden age of hip hop and he's been called rap royalty. Now, Diddy sat in jail awaiting trial. He denies all the allegations.

Speaker 348:42

I'm Anushka Matanda Dowati and from BBC Sounds, this is Diddy on Trial. Every week, I'll be examining the latest allegations, interrogating the rumours and answering your questions.

Speaker 348:54

Listen on BBC Sounds.