Mark Knopfler

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:45

My castaway this week is the musician Mark Knopfler. He shot to fame as the lead singer and guitarist of Dire Straits. His brand of cinematic songwriting and his subtle mastery of his instrument stood apart from the new wave pop and punk of the late seventies and early eighties and made Dire Straits one of the most successful bands in history. He earned his place in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but while he was always happy with the rock and roll, he could take or leave the fame and he didn't attend the ceremony when he was officially inducted in 2018.

Presenter1:15

After Diastraitz disbanded, his creative adventures continued as a solo artist, as Bob Dylan's musical director, as the composer of acclaimed film scores, and as producer and collaborator with some of the greatest artists in contemporary music. He grew up in Newcastle and found his voice as a songwriter when he was a young journalist, capturing the stories of the people he met, whether they were old-timers playing swing in the back room of a pub or delivery men wishing they were stealing a living on MTV instead of moving refrigerators. He says, Once you start becoming a songwriter, the songs start pushing to be born. Mark Knopfler, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Mark Knopfler1:54

Well, thank you very much. You make that sound very impressive.

Presenter1:58

It certainly is impressive. Mark, I want to start with those creative labours with you, which are still ongoing. How much has that process changed in 50 years or so? Writing a song?

Mark Knopfler2:09

Well, I tell you, I've still got a junkyard of of stuff that I can wander into and wonder if I'll find a place, a thing for it, and that s hasn't changed. And every time I start recording, it feels like the first time.

Presenter2:24

It's exciting.

Mark Knopfler2:25

Yeah, it's exciting and it's a challenge as well.

Presenter2:29

I like the junkyard metaphor, but there's a sort of experimental attitude to that. It's tinkering.

Mark Knopfler2:34

I think tinkering is a kind word. It's a good word. And that is a bit what it's like.

Mark Knopfler2:40

It's mysterious, too. It took a while before I could call myself a guitarist. It took a while before I described myself as a songwriter. I mean

Mark Knopfler2:49

A songwriter, I thought there are people who really do this.

Presenter2:53

So it felt too grand, kind of like a fine.

Mark Knopfler2:54

Yes.

Presenter2:54

Two.

Mark Knopfler2:55

Exactly.

Presenter2:56

Your songs are very often stories and often inspired by real life moments. I would imagine that having written like that for many years, it makes you a really good listener.

Mark Knopfler3:08

You can tell a lot about a person by the way they listen to music, actually. And I asked my mum this, how did I listen when I was little? And you listening to the B B C sitting on the carpet just as a baby, listening with mother and children's favorites was a big thing for me. I never missed it.

Speaker 23:23

They are

Mark Knopfler3:25

And she said you used to listen really intently.

Speaker 23:28

Uh

Presenter3:28

Mm-hmm.

Mark Knopfler3:29

And I think I did, and that's what switched me on to lyrics as well as the music. I think I I loved it all, the whole thing, so I could sing Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer all the way through it eighteen months.

Presenter3:42

And those lyrics, some of which you've caught snippets of real life conversations, characters that you've met that have made their way into your songs. Are you the kind of person who carries a notebook and is always ready to write one of those down?

Mark Knopfler3:55

Quite often I have to look for a pencil. I was actually in a electrical shop in America, in in New York, and there was a guy sounding off about the rock bands that were playing on M T V,'cause all the T V s in the shop were tuned to M T V. What he was saying was so classic and funny that I I had to go and ask for a bit of paper and I

Speaker 24:10

I would say

Mark Knopfler4:17

And so that I I actually sat down in a kitchen display area in the window and started writing the song there.

Presenter4:21

Uh

Mark Knopfler4:22

Yeah.

Presenter4:22

And that was literally him saying, that's the way you do it: money for nothing and checks for free. That was him.

Mark Knopfler4:27

Yeah, he actually said things like, that ain't working, and you know, maybe get a blister on your little finger. You know, it was one of those, you know.

Presenter4:32

I'm not a little fancy.

Presenter4:36

Mark, you're still writing songs and very much enjoying recording. In fact, you released your 10th studio album earlier this year. You've written tons of hits, not just for yourself, but for other artists too. And many of them have been chosen here by other castaways on Desert Island discs. Going Home from Local Hero comes up a lot, and Tina Turner's Private Dancer, that's another one that springs to mind. Do you know when you've written a hit of that magnitude? Do you know in the moment?

Mark Knopfler5:00

Yeah.

Mark Knopfler5:02

Absolutely not. No, I I never think about hits that uh

Mark Knopfler5:05

If there was a formula or a promise, I'd tell you what it is.

Presenter5:10

I know it must have been very difficult for you to choose the discs that you're bringing us today, just eight. It's a real task to narrow the music that you've loved down, I'm sure. What criteria did you use?

Mark Knopfler5:21

I tried to use the innocence of

Mark Knopfler5:24

childhood and the innocence of youth and I tried to use the

Mark Knopfler5:29

Just growing into knowing more about it.

Presenter5:32

Well, you've got a lifetime's worth of music to share with us, Mark Notfla. So let's get started. Disc number one, what are we going to hear first?

Mark Knopfler5:39

Well, one of the first artists that I will have heard on the radio will have been Paul Robeson.

Mark Knopfler5:45

Old man Re you know.

Mark Knopfler5:47

And then I heard Ray Charles just amazing artistry. And when I heard Ray Charles sing in Old Man River,

Mark Knopfler5:57

It really struck me because um

Mark Knopfler5:59

This session was interesting. First of all, it's got the traditional choir singing for about feels feels like an hour at the beginning. And then and then Ray comes he comes in and it's just pure genius. And

Speaker 26:08

And then

Mark Knopfler6:14

never fails to move me tremendously. He had a cold on that session and he did keep falling asleep while the choir was singing the intro. But that he yeah thank goodness he stayed awake for the take and it's just magnificent.

Speaker 26:28

I know that oh

Speaker 26:33

Old Man River

Speaker 26:41

At Old Man River.

Speaker 26:49

He must know something.

Presenter6:52

That was Ray Charles and Ole Man River. You were absolutely transported by that track, Mark.

Mark Knopfler6:56

It never fails.

Presenter6:58

So let's go back to the beginning then, Mark Noffler. You're born in Glasgow, nineteen forty nine, to Louisa and Irwin. Now your dad's surname, Noffla, that's Hungarian. Tell me a little bit more about him and his story. How did he end up in Glasgow?

Mark Knopfler7:08

Yeah.

Mark Knopfler7:10

Well, he was a refugee and he came to England in uh

Mark Knopfler7:14

39. He was given two quid, I think, by the Red Cross, and he was a lovely man. I mean, he we had a regular childhood, three kids, and he got a job working in the architect's office'cause he studies in Vienna and then he managed to get to England and was working in the city architects in Glasgow. And then when he got a job in Newcastle, it was the same thing.

Mark Knopfler7:45

to do the same thing for the city architects and my mum's family were all from Newcastle. They were all Geordies. So uh when I was about eight we moved to Newcastle.

Presenter7:57

See, dad was a city architect, and that was very important to him. I know that, you know, for his politics, he was a municipal architect, and he believed.

Mark Knopfler8:03

Oh yeah, no, he never uh you know, he never wanted to go private. He called them architects of those. Yeah.

Presenter8:09

So it was all about the good of the people and the community. Are any of his buildings, any of his designs still standing? Did you get to see them?

Mark Knopfler8:11

Yeah.

Mark Knopfler8:15

Yeah, I think they're still dotted about. Yeah.

Presenter8:17

And he was a a keen chess player as well.

Mark Knopfler8:20

Yeah, he was. He played for Northumberland and uh he played in the Scottish Championships when he was in Glasgow. He taught me how to play chess, but I wasn't um quite the same standard.

Presenter8:31

And tell me about your mum, Louise. How would you describe her?

Mark Knopfler8:34

Mum was from one of those working class families that wanted to improve. My nana sowed her way through life and brought up all her children that way because she lost her husband just after the First World War and she lost a son in the Second World War.

Mark Knopfler8:55

Nana, God bless her, you know, she s sewed clothes for the blood transfusion.

Mark Knopfler9:00

professionally, but at night time she would run up dresses for people and try and earn a little bit of money with that sewing machine never stopped.

Presenter9:08

Let's have some more music, Martin Offler. It's your second choice today. What are we going to hear next?

Mark Knopfler9:13

Well, when I was little I had an EP by Emile Ford and the Checkmates, and he did Red Sails in the Sunset and it Red Sails in the Sunset. But then I didn't realize that it was a standard. So I slowly gradually realized that other people had recorded it too. As soon as I heard Dean Martin, which would be years later,

Mark Knopfler9:37

I love Dino, you know. He has a lovely, relaxed way of I think all that drinking thing was a complete spoof, you know. I think he just yeah, I think I think he probably had some tea in those glasses, and I don't think that

Speaker 29:44

I think all

Presenter9:48

The rat bag era.

Mark Knopfler9:55

Apparently he always knew his lines.

Presenter9:57

And that kind of big band sound, you know, the crooners and all of that, that would have been the music that you were growing up hearing via your parents' generation, both.

Mark Knopfler10:04

Well, I suppose, I mean, I remember my mum singing, singing, singing.

Mark Knopfler10:09

When I was sitting on the floor.

Presenter10:11

She must have been happy.

Mark Knopfler10:12

Yeah, she was happy and she was singing.

Presenter10:14

Did your mum sing this song? Did you sing Dean Martin?

Mark Knopfler10:17

Yeah, she would have definitely sung Red Sails in the Sunset.

Speaker 210:21

Red sails in the sunset Way out on the sea

Speaker 210:32

Carry my loved one.

Speaker 210:38

Home safely to me.

Speaker 210:43

She sailed at Dodoni.

Speaker 210:48

All day I've been blue.

Presenter10:52

Dean Martin and Red Sails in the Sunset. So, Martnoffler, your family moved to your mum's hometown of Blythe when you were around seven, and that brought you nearer to your Uncle Kingsley, one of your early musical influences, with his boogie woogie piano. I think he had a banjo, too. Did your parents encourage your interest in music, your love of it?

Mark Knopfler11:11

Oh yeah, they never stood in the way. I played shockingly bad Boogie Woogie piano taught by my Uncle Kingsley in the house. You know, I played it and played it and played it. I don't think it ever improved.

Mark Knopfler11:24

I could not believe how patient they must have been, because as well my brother David had a drum kit.

Mark Knopfler11:32

Dad always built a garden shed wherever we were, so the drums were in the garden shed, just in the little back garden there.

Mark Knopfler11:39

The poor neighbours My poor parents were the boogie woogie and that, and then later on, when I got a guitar, I'd be stumper stumping on the floor.

Mark Knopfler11:48

You know, they used to say, Please, Mark, will you stop thumping on the you know but they never stood in the way of it, ever.

Presenter11:55

So Mark, your playing style is is very interesting and it developed in a particular way because you you're a left-handed person playing right-handed guitar. So how did you come to play like that in the first place?

Mark Knopfler12:05

Well,'cause my big sister Ruth, and I think big sisters are very important in this world. We had these dodgy little tennis rackets like you know, that you could get for not very much money. Used to use the tennis racket as a guitar. I was playing it. I was pretending it was a guitar. And she turned it round so that I was holding it right-handed. She said, That's the way you play.

Presenter12:26

Yeah.

Presenter12:28

And what does that bring to your technique? So your stronger hand is forming the notes. What does that let you do?

Mark Knopfler12:33

A little bit of fle flexibility. So if you get a vibrato

Mark Knopfler12:37

I could maybe do it on two or three strings at a time, so a bit more flexibility in that left hand.

Presenter12:44

And what about the finger picking? Where did that come in?

Mark Knopfler12:47

The finger picking came from um not having an amplifier and

Mark Knopfler12:51

You know, after dad forked out 50 for the guitar, I didn't have the nerve to ask him for an amp. Realized I needed an amp.

Presenter12:56

I realized I needed an answer.

Mark Knopfler12:58

I didn't have the nerve I didn't think it was right, actually.

Presenter13:01

What was it like when you finally got your hands on the guitar? And what was it? What kind?

Mark Knopfler13:05

It was like an imitation strat. It was really in imitation fender.

Mark Knopfler13:10

There were lots of people making them too, trying to sell guitars to all the kids that wanted to be in the beat groups and uh

Mark Knopfler13:17

The whole beat group thing was about that. You know, you'd sort out who'd be a guitar player, who'd who'd end up with a bass, and who'd end up on the drums, and who'd end up maybe having a van. I mean, if you had a van, you were in.

Speaker 313:29

You had a van, you were in.

Speaker 313:32

You can't go anywhere without the van, that's a very important rule.

Mark Knopfler13:35

I never thought that I I would ever

Mark Knopfler13:39

um make a living at it or I never cared about

Mark Knopfler13:42

D you know, ma that happening. I never thought about that being possible until, you know, later in the teens.

Presenter13:49

On that note, Mark Knopfler, disc number three, what's gonna be next?

Mark Knopfler13:54

Well, it has to be the Shads, you know, it has to be the The Shadows. I was still in short pants, I think, and uh they played Apache and uh that was being the first big hit Jerry Lorden wrote. I was totally struck by the sound of Hank, you know, this magic sound.

Mark Knopfler14:13

What it is, it's you're playing the guitar, but your left hand's not doing the vibrato. It's coming from the tremolo arm, or what Americans call the whammy bar.

Mark Knopfler14:22

But the magic of that sound. And Wonderful Land was one of the Cherry Lorden went on to write Wonderful Land after Apache. I actually got to meet Cherry Lorden just after the Straits got successful. And it was a wonderful thing to do. But Wonderful Land just filled me with joy. Just the sound of it. I'd be in school.

Mark Knopfler14:46

twanging away, you know, singing the tune. And I remember one of the teachers coming in saying, No, you stop making that metallic sound at the back of your throat, boy.

Mark Knopfler14:57

Um you can use to call us boy, then.

Speaker 214:57

Um you can use a call as boy.

Mark Knopfler15:00

But Wonderful Land just seemed to me to sum up the promise of the time. The word is promised to me, it just promised everything.

Presenter15:10

The optimism, the excitement.

Mark Knopfler15:12

Yeah.

Presenter15:12

And a real live whammy bar, let's go!

Presenter15:45

The Shadows and Wonderful Land, Mark Knopfler. Now, interestingly, you you went to grammar school in Gosfeth and I I think your former headmaster wrote that you'd always gone your own way. What did he mean by that?

Mark Knopfler15:56

I would be one of the people that you'd want to talk to about the length of their hair after assembly or something, you know.

Mark Knopfler16:04

But I don't think that there was anything that the education system could do about people like us. And we were forming beat groups and we were in bands and we that's all that we we would have cared about. And I just always felt I was too young for it, just always slightly too young. I was just always behind. You know that Beatles and the Stones and all of that and the kinks, you know. They were away and going and I was still stuck at this school, you know, and and it in a different in a different system as it seemed. So I couldn't wait to get going and get out of it. But it took a while. But in a way I'm glad it happened the way it did.

Presenter16:43

So after school, Mark, you know, as much as you were harbouring all of these dreams of making music, you did get a proper job. You were an apprentice on the local paper and then you got a job on the Yorkshire Evening Post. Why did you choose journalism?

Mark Knopfler16:54

In it would be a different kind of a job, offer something else, a bit of excitement, maybe.

Presenter16:59

What were you covering? What kind of stories?

Mark Knopfler17:01

There the first job I got was on the Yorkshire Evening Post.

Mark Knopfler17:05

for uh was it under ten quid a week, and you're a junior your cub reporter with the accent on cub. And uh I didn't know anything, but I tell you what, I think it grew me up quite a lot that the good thing about that is that it does give you a clue. You've got to get yourself organized.

Speaker 217:11

And uh

Speaker 217:16

Bye.

Mark Knopfler17:23

I think in some ways the songs got accelerated that way.

Presenter17:23

Thing

Presenter17:26

So they started growing out of the characters that you met?

Mark Knopfler17:29

Yeah, for instance, I was sent to

Mark Knopfler17:32

interview the cost of this pantomime at you know the theatre in Leeds and

Mark Knopfler17:38

And I'd find myself talking to where the oldest, ugly sisters in variety, you know, about what

Mark Knopfler17:44

Anyway, I saw those lines in my notebook, you know, years later, and started to think, well, maybe this could be a song.

Mark Knopfler17:52

That became a song, as I said, I'm very slow. So years later, I wrote this song, and years after that.

Mark Knopfler18:00

It got on an album actually got on the Sailing to Philadelphia album was called Song was called One More Matinee.

Speaker 318:04

Was good

Speaker 218:04

Cool.

Mark Knopfler18:06

And uh

Mark Knopfler18:09

I've started to call them portrait songs.

Mark Knopfler18:12

There's a language that belongs to songs and you realize, you know, I wouldn't be very good at writing a note for the Milkman.

Mark Knopfler18:20

I wouldn't. Honest, I'm serious. I wouldn't be very good at that. But b songs have their own language. It's not the same as poetry either.

Mark Knopfler18:28

And I just seemed to be happy in the songs. That's where I felt as though I could.

Mark Knopfler18:35

survived because I became more critical of that kind of writing and kind of feeling more comfortable in songs.

Presenter18:43

Speaking of songs, it's time to hear another one if you wouldn't mind. Your fourth choice today, Mark Knopfler. What's it gonna be?

Mark Knopfler18:49

Mississippi Fred McDowell.

Mark Knopfler18:51

Write me a few lines.

Mark Knopfler18:54

I was already mad about the blues, you know, and so I became a blues nut. And when I was at Journalist College actually, you know, doing my one year's training there down in Harlow, Essex, I used to go to a blues club every week without fail.

Mark Knopfler19:08

It was in Bishop Stalford in a loft, and I saw a lot of the blues bands.

Mark Knopfler19:14

And also when I was at the paper, I used to go to all the gigs at Leeds University and at the Poly. A week would never go by when I wasn't at a gig. I realized there was a whole world of acoustic blues music and country blues music that was before all that, you know. So and I got to know this lovely guy in Leeds called Steve Phillips. And he had a National Steel guitar and he was a proper blues singer. And of course Steve had a record collection. A lot of the great country blues artists as well.

Presenter19:47

So did he introduce you to Mississippi Fred MacDell?

Mark Knopfler19:50

Yeah, I will have heard Mississippi Fred, and I always loved him from the minute I heard him. I think he used a finger finger pick and and sometimes he used a bottleneck on one of his fingers and and and I'd take into that like a Doctor Water anyway, buzzplaying.

Presenter19:56

I think he used a f

Mark Knopfler20:05

That's called slide guitar and I was doing that anyway.

Mark Knopfler20:09

I sort of realized that it was all part of a magnificent patchwork of music.

Speaker 220:20

Lord bring it home, baby.

Speaker 220:25

Please write me a fury of

Speaker 220:40

Love it on, baby.

Speaker 220:44

Salaam

Presenter20:45

Mississippi Fred McDowell and write me a few lines.

Mark Knopfler20:49

He's a terrific rhythmic player, wasn't he? That's just you can see the boots on the floor.

Presenter20:57

All right, Mark Knopfley. You went on to complete an English degree at Leeds University and then you moved to Essex with your guitar and you got a job as an English lecturer. You also joined a band called Brewer's Droop. Pobrock I think is the the genre. At that point it's safe to say. How much did you enjoy teaching back then?

Mark Knopfler21:13

Oh, I liked it and it it it it gave me I could afford then I bought a motorcycle and

Mark Knopfler21:18

And then I managed to buy a a car that enabled me to put the guitar on the amp that I'd got, you know, in the back.

Mark Knopfler21:25

and go down and start diastrates in Deptford.

Presenter21:29

So you moved into a new flat and started the band with flatmates actually. You were living in Deptford with your brother Dave and John Ilsie as well, I think. So the three of you formed Dire Straits. Now, again, it's interesting because, you know, you said earlier that you felt a little bit too young while the Beatles and the Stones were taking off. But by this point, like 1977, summer of 77, it's the height of punk. So, you know, I think the Sex Pistols are in Highbury making the album Never Mind the Bollocks. And you guys are creating Dire Straits. You're working on what become these legendary demos. And it's safe to say that, you know, the sound you were creating, this world that you were occupying, was very much outside the zeitgeist.

Mark Knopfler21:36

Ballot

Mark Knopfler21:49

You know

Mark Knopfler22:06

Yeah, well I was twenty seven.

Mark Knopfler22:08

And I was into all this music and I'd been through all this music and uh influenced by all this other music and uh

Mark Knopfler22:18

If I'd been seventeen

Mark Knopfler22:21

I wouldn't have survived.

Mark Knopfler22:22

You know, I've seen a lot of that.

Presenter22:24

In what way what would have been too early? Come to you too early.

Mark Knopfler22:26

Yeah, I mean, I just don't think it's a good thing for children to be idolized, particularly.

Presenter22:33

So you had the advantage of knowing who you were as a person. But I wonder about that what it felt like making music that that must have sounded and felt so different from what was fashionable at the time.

Mark Knopfler22:43

Yeah, funnily enough, we'd go and play in a cellar or in London wherever.

Presenter22:43

Yeah.

Mark Knopfler22:47

And um

Mark Knopfler22:49

you know, the next time we go there'd be more people in and uh you know, you'd be queuing down the stairs and the next time they'd be queuing round the corner. So it was resonating with people from the get go when we started playing. It didn't you know, so we managed to hang on in there and then then we went

Mark Knopfler23:08

On a tour with talking heads in a mini bus.

Mark Knopfler23:12

And uh

Presenter23:13

Very early days. What was that like?

Mark Knopfler23:14

Very early days and that was that was that was great. We used to get encores, you know, and things like that back then.

Presenter23:21

So you were doing something that was that was kind of against the grain, very different, but it wa it was embraced at home. I mean, obviously every British band that starts to get a certain level of success is then set the challenge of breaking America. Was that in your sight, having grown up as such a like you say, this junkie for American music right from the beginning?

Mark Knopfler23:40

Well, we were hit in Europe first, before England. England was the last place.

Mark Knopfler23:45

And when we did hit in England it was massive.

Presenter23:48

Your first single, Sons of Swing, reached the top ten in both the States and here in the UK. Where did the idea for that song come from?

Mark Knopfler23:56

It was uh one of those situations like Money for Nothingness. You're in a room and

Mark Knopfler24:01

And suddenly you realize that the bits of the song are are possibly in place. Yeah, uh Sultan's Swing was in Deptford, and uh in Greenwich there was a a little pub that I'd never been in. And um it was a just a grubby midweek night and it was pretty wet outside and there was a a bunch of guys that looked like geography teachers, I mean, playing

Mark Knopfler24:25

Dixieland jazz and uh which wasn't my favorite kind of thing anyway. And uh at the end of the set, one of them, who must have been the leader, he said, Well, thank you very much, you know, good night. We are we are the Sultans of the Swing and I just laughed, you know, I mean you'd never see

Presenter24:44

They did not look like the Solomon's.

Mark Knopfler24:45

Like they did not look like sultans of anything.

Mark Knopfler24:48

And um uh so again, it's that kind of thing that just

Mark Knopfler24:54

gives you the the bones of an idea, you know, to to write about it because it really couldn't have been less glamorous if it I was in the studio to do the first album.

Speaker 225:00

Yeah.

Mark Knopfler25:06

And I said, this might be just another record to you, but it's not to me. And that's how.

Mark Knopfler25:14

I forget it's easy to forget how important it was to me just to get something out there and get those songs born.

Presenter25:24

Mark, I'd love to hear your next track. What have you chosen for us?

Mark Knopfler25:27

I've just chosen an unusual one by Bob Dylan just because, you know, I've been a Bob Dylan fan all my life, um, since his first album. And again, big sisters are important because Ruth will have bought Bob's first album into the house, I think. God knows how many records Bob's made.

Mark Knopfler25:46

over the years, but it's a thing called Duquesne Whistle and it's just to me it it's totally original, it sums up it's a beautiful little piece of American life, you know, the whole panorama of it, the whole richness of it.

Presenter26:02

You've collaborated a lot over the years. What do you like to work with?

Mark Knopfler26:06

It would vary from song to song just because all all songs are different and so you never know what you'll be involved with with the song because they're all so different.

Speaker 226:18

Listen to that duquesne whistle blowing.

Speaker 226:23

Blow light's gonna sweep my world away

Speaker 226:28

I'm gonna stop in Carbondale and keep on going.

Speaker 226:33

That Duque train go round me night and day

Speaker 226:38

You say I'm a gambler?

Speaker 226:41

You say I'm

Speaker 226:44

But I read neither one.

Presenter26:47

Bob Dylan and Duquesne Whistle. So Mark, the band was doing well, but in 1985, that was when things really went stratospheric for Dire Straits. The album Brothers in Arms exploded and it remains one of the best-selling albums of all time. 30 million copies. And its mega success, part of it, you say, was down to technology was on your side. It was the development of a new format. The C D was coming in. MTV was obviously a huge deal, you know, especially in the States. And Dire Straits were kind of perfectly poised to take advantage of both those things.

Mark Knopfler27:22

Yeah, it was almost like critical mass and it was a lot of luck involved because the our record company, Philips of Polygram or Phonogram or the Polyglots or whatever you want to call them,

Mark Knopfler27:35

They had invented the C D and so they brought it out in Europe. And I think that coincided with the Brothers in Arms record and also.

Mark Knopfler27:44

We'd had.

Mark Knopfler27:46

some hit singles in America and I really think that just combined. So we'd had I think So Far Away and we'd had

Mark Knopfler27:55

Walk of life and we'd had money for nothing.

Speaker 227:57

Uh

Mark Knopfler27:59

And there was also a lot of people wanted to see the band play live.

Mark Knopfler28:04

It all just came to together at the same time.

Presenter28:07

Yeah, you were putting the hours in. I mean, you took on a huge tour to promote that album. I think you did 234 shows in 12 months.

Mark Knopfler28:14

And you've got to want to do it.

Presenter28:15

How did that lifestyle suit you of touring, travel?

Mark Knopfler28:18

Oh, so it's me down the ground. And uh you've got to want it means you've got to want all of it, you know, and I my favorite

Presenter28:25

I'm

Speaker 228:25

Uh

Mark Knopfler28:27

Bits are rehearsing and favorite bits are writing, but favorite bits are performing. So I was one of the lucky people who liked the whole cycle. If you don't want to do it, then you can go home.

Mark Knopfler28:41

I remember once we were hiring some roadies and one guy said, Oh, I've got to be able to watch Wimbledon.

Presenter28:49

How did that cut down? Did he get the job?

Mark Knopfler28:51

No.

Presenter28:51

Uh

Presenter28:54

Two point five million people came to see you on that tour. How was that playing to enormous crowds night after night, being part of this huge machine? Because it kind of grows up around you along with your success, I'm imagining.

Mark Knopfler29:04

But it's what you always wanted, isn't it? That's what you wanted, isn't it?

Presenter29:06

Yeah.

Presenter29:07

How's that feel?

Mark Knopfler29:09

It's great.

Mark Knopfler29:10

I had a great time with diastraits and I loved it and I still I mean I was talking to John yesterday and I've got lots and lots of good memories of it.

Mark Knopfler29:20

How can you describe it? It's not a normal.

Mark Knopfler29:24

It's not a normal existence, but it's what you always wanted. That's the only thing I can say. If you you wanted this.

Mark Knopfler29:32

I think the by product of the success is the the fame thing. It's almost like exhausting a in an engine. I mean the I I couldn't see much point in all of that. I mean I loved the success because the success enabled me to build a studio.

Speaker 229:41

Mm.

Mark Knopfler29:49

And the success enabled me to b to buy instruments that I wanted and amps that I wanted.

Presenter29:53

Hmm.

Presenter29:56

You're working with your heroes, playing to fans, but the fame.

Mark Knopfler29:57

Yeah, playing to fans, but the fame you didn't like. No, I could never see the point of that. And I still, you know, don't if you can think of something good about it, then

Mark Knopfler30:08

Tell me what it is. The only thing that

Mark Knopfler30:12

uh enabled me to survive was the fact that I was

Mark Knopfler30:16

or wasn't a teenager.

Mark Knopfler30:19

I think if I'd been seventeen or eighteen I wouldn't have survived it.

Presenter30:23

You called time on Diastrates in 1995. The band had already been on sabbatical for a few years by that point. Why was it the right time?

Mark Knopfler30:31

Well, I think it just got too big and we were exhausted, you know, or I was exhausted too. I mean, I think

Mark Knopfler30:38

The last tour that we planned, it had what we call um leapfrogging stages, where you're doing a big stage somewhere, big gig somewhere, which and incidentally even that, that the gig becomes an event. So it's a different thing, slightly.

Presenter30:56

Because it's like a mini city with all these people and catering and all of these and all that kind of thing. Yeah.

Mark Knopfler30:58

A link

Mark Knopfler30:59

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and you have another stage being set up somewhere else. And I think sometimes there's three stages. I'm not quite sure how all that works, but.

Mark Knopfler31:08

It's an incredible industry when you think about it. You're in a different place every night. You develop a thing with a crew, you're like a little family circus.

Mark Knopfler31:20

And you'd sit with the

Mark Knopfler31:22

the truck drivers because you know'em, they're part of the company, you know. But once you start doing bigger stuff, if you gigantic stuff, you don't know the crew, you don't know all of them. And uh I didn't like that. I didn't like that feeling. I I quite enjoyed the little family circus thing.

Speaker 331:40

Yeah.

Presenter31:40

Yeah.

Mark Knopfler31:41

You're like show folk almost.

Mark Knopfler31:43

Um

Presenter31:44

That back to the ugly sisters again.

Mark Knopfler31:46

Exactly, you know.

Presenter31:48

But you miss being able to see the white of the audience's eyes by the sound of it.

Mark Knopfler31:51

Yes, that's right. It's slightly different. The intimacy.

Mark Knopfler31:56

goes. And I always enjoyed playing in round places for some reason.

Presenter32:01

All right, let's have some more music, Mark Knopf for your sixth choice today. What have you gone for, and why are you taking it with you to your island?

Mark Knopfler32:07

It's Ennio Morricone's Deborah's theme from Once Upon a Time in America. Morricone is a genius.

Mark Knopfler32:15

And I actually met him in Italy and we had a cup of coffee together.

Speaker 232:18

Yeah.

Mark Knopfler32:22

It's a wonderful piece of music. I d to me it's just inspiring and um it's one of those pieces of music that I feel as though I need to hear it every so often, you know.

Presenter32:35

What was it like having a cup of coffee with Egno Morricone? Please tell me you were in a sunny piazza with the the smell of lemons in the air.

Mark Knopfler32:40

The smell of lemons in the air. Exactly that. You know, you have to be in Italy to have a cup of coffee with Morricone. And you know, another thing is that you'll know it'll be good coffee. Yeah. It was lovely to meet him.

Speaker 232:48

Yeah.

Speaker 332:48

Yeah.

Speaker 232:49

Uh

Speaker 332:49

Uh

Presenter33:22

Deborah's Theme by Enyo Moricone from the film soundtrack to Once Upon a Time in America. Mark, one of the things that you've invested some money in is your recording studio, British Grove. It's home not only to your solo recordings, but very much a destination for other musicians. And people talk about it in these hushed, reverent tones once they've been. Tell me about it, what treasures does it contain?

Mark Knopfler33:45

Not a lot. I mean, I just wanted to be able to do things in there that I found that I couldn't do.

Mark Knopfler33:51

In other studios when I was going round the world to record, and I would be going to America to record.

Presenter33:56

The desk is pretty special by the sounds of it.

Mark Knopfler33:59

Yeah, there's a desk

Mark Knopfler34:01

The big desk in the big studio is probably Analog's last great shout. And I've got a couple of early EMI desks as well, which are just lovely things. And it's funky junk, a lot of it. You know, there's uh

Presenter34:13

But I love that as part of the romance. Like you say, it's the story that makes it.

Mark Knopfler34:18

The important thing is that it gets used. I've still got a guy who began at EMI.

Mark Knopfler34:25

As a junior back in the days when

Mark Knopfler34:28

The staff used to have to wear white coats to operate the machinery. And this chap who still works at British Grove, you know, and he was the first kid to refuse to wear a white coat to operate the tape machine. But I think it's important to keep the tape stuff going if you want to use, if you want to record with tape. You can do digital editing in there, of course, you know, and it's got the the latest and greatest digital stuff. But I like the good stuff to try to work in tandem with the best old stuff working with the best new stuff.

Presenter35:06

Your studio was the venue for a new version of Going Home not too long ago. That came out earlier this year, and the cast list is a real who's who of rock and roll guitarists Bruce Springsteen, Pete Townsend, Niall Rogers, capturing the final performance of the great Jeff Beck. What was it like working on that song?

Mark Knopfler35:24

Oh, well, it it was just marvellous. And the quality of the contributions were

Mark Knopfler35:29

It was incredible. The first day

Mark Knopfler35:33

And this was for Teenage Cancer, I should say, the Teenage Cancer Trust. Pete Townsend.

Mark Knopfler35:38

comes in with a guitar and an amp the first day, and you can hear Pete's chords ringing through the studio on the first and you know when Pete plays a chord, boy

Speaker 235:44

You know the first

Mark Knopfler35:48

It just went on from there. I mean, Eric Clapton came in the next day and he did some beautiful playing and then shortly after that was Jeff Beck, it was Dave Gilmore. But the but the Jeff Beck stuff came from Jeff's studio himself and it's just it was so magnificent. It made me quite emotional.

Speaker 235:58

Oh, that's

Mark Knopfler36:07

And guy too.

Presenter36:08

That's Guy Fletcher, the musician and producer.

Mark Knopfler36:11

Because he really was on some

Mark Knopfler36:13

magical level with the guitar. And um it just went on like that. I'd come in and poor guy would be de trying to deal with

Mark Knopfler36:23

Too much music. I mean, there would be Bruce Springsteen would have sent a piece from the States, or, you know, Joe Bonamassa, or whoever it would be.

Mark Knopfler36:30

And um so it was only really due to Guy's brilliance at editing and um that he put it together. It it seemed as though it would never stop happening. I mean, Hank

Mark Knopfler36:42

Sent a piece from Australia that was just lovely, and it's great to hear him playing that tune again. And you name it, they were on it.

Presenter36:50

Mark, I've thought of a good thing about fame. Do you want to hear what it is? Go on. Sometimes you get to have a dinosaur named after you.

Mark Knopfler36:58

Well, yes, and there is that, but that was just again, that was just luck again, because when they were playing the records on the digs, they found stuff.

Presenter37:09

So this is the archaeologist on site on Madagascar listening to Dire Straits Ovs and they unearthed the Massiarchosaurus Nopfleri.

Mark Knopfler37:11

Yeah.

Presenter37:22

What did you make of of this little fella? He's about the size of a dog.

Mark Knopfler37:23

This little fellow

Mark Knopfler37:27

It's something, isn't it? It's uh it's you know, it's like when some astronauts told came in and told me that they'd been playing the stuff up in space. This must be, God, thirty, forty years ago, I can't remember a lot, but uh that was an amazing

Mark Knopfler37:42

Amazing thing. Just stuff like that. Stuff that happens like that. Yeah, you don't realize what what what it is that you're getting into.

Presenter37:47

Well, but it does have its perks.

Presenter37:54

And soon, before you know it, you've got your own dinosaur. Quite an unusual looking little fella, the dino.

Mark Knopfler37:59

I must put him up somewhere.

Presenter38:02

Listen, Mark, it's time for your seventh choice of music today. And this is another hero of yours and also someone you've collaborated with many times.

Mark Knopfler38:10

Yeah, again, Van Morrison's somebody I've been playing Van Records every place I've ever lived since I was a teenager anyway. And the only reason I'm playing this is, you know, and telling you these circular moments is when I'm on the studio floor and I've got the guitar in my hand and Van Morrison is in the vocal booth and you're hearing Van's voice and you're playing the lick. I mean this is before they put the lead guitar on it and I was just playing this lick along to the music, you know, and

Presenter38:15

Uh

Mark Knopfler38:48

I had sort of came up with a leg for the song and what I like about it is it's about Van's life. You know, Van's talking about his his early days when he's cleaning windows and that's the song, Cleaning Windows, and uh it's a great song. And it was it's fantastic to be part of it and um to hear Van's voice coming through

Mark Knopfler39:11

your headphones. That's that's quite a quite a thing and it um it brings you know, it's another one of those what what you'd call a circular moment circular moment.

Speaker 239:23

In a down joy.

Mark Knopfler39:28

Uh

Speaker 239:28

What's my life? I'll have to clean it windows.

Speaker 239:37

Take my time, I'll see you when my love grows

Speaker 239:44

Baby, don't let slide. I'm a working man in my prime.

Speaker 239:51

Clayton Westlow

Speaker 239:54

Number 36.

Presenter39:57

Van Morrison cleaning windows. So Mark Knopfler, earlier this year Christie's auction house sold off an array of your guitar collection with a quarter of the proceeds going to charities. The collection raised almost nine million pounds, but I know it was painful for you to see some of those instruments go. I think you described it at the time as a happy pain. Which ones hurt the most?

Mark Knopfler40:18

Oh well, it was much more happy than pain, I can tell you. No, it's always great too, because I give guitars to whoever I'm playing with, you know, on tour and recording with. You always say, I hope there's a song in this for you, and that's what it is. And I had a lot of guitars that be just be gathering dust. So it's nice to think of them going to happy homes.

Presenter40:41

It's almost time to cast you away, Mount Knopfler. The next chapter in your story's The Desert Island. How will you manage in isolation, do you think?

Mark Knopfler40:49

Pretty badly. I'm happy in a calf with a mate, so...

Mark Knopfler40:53

It's there'd be no calfs and no mates, so I I don't think I'd do very well.

Presenter40:58

What will you miss the most about your everyday life?

Mark Knopfler41:01

I think just the banter and uh I think the humor that you have to have in music is is very important. You c you couldn't you couldn't survive without it.

Mark Knopfler41:11

So I think that's what I'd miss.

Mark Knopfler41:14

You know, when I'm touring, uh very often um you'll see us walking on stage and we'll still be getting over the last joke that somebody's told.

Mark Knopfler41:25

And you couldn't survive without it. So I think that's what I'd miss most would that be the humour.

Presenter41:30

You so you said that there's there's three parts to the job essentially of being a musician. You know, you write, you record and you tour. And you also said that touring is always the first thing to go as artists get older. You're seventy four now. Do you want to keep playing? Do you see an end to

Mark Knopfler41:45

I do see an end to the to touring. Yeah, I think uh that would be the just because with the st the studio

Mark Knopfler41:52

I've got to be in there. You know, I haven't had a bad day in there. And I want to, I think, be able to record in there a bit more.

Mark Knopfler42:00

Than I have done.

Mark Knopfler42:02

So that would be I think the touring is the sensible thing to

Presenter42:05

Go ahead.

Mark Knopfler42:06

To go first. And also, Kitty's been so patient. You know, Kitty's your

Presenter42:09

This is your your wife, Kitty.

Mark Knopfler42:11

Yeah, she's and she's incredible'cause she's never made me do anything. She's never, never stopped me doing what I wanted to do and and it's time to uh I think it's just time to have a little break from the road maybe.

Presenter42:25

Well, you've got some time on your island first. What sort of place are you imagining that you'll be cast away on? You've toured the world. I mean, you must have seen a few islands in your time, Mark.

Mark Knopfler42:34

I think it would have to be quite

Mark Knopfler42:37

Quite a warm place because I like, you know, I do like that.

Presenter42:40

How will you cope with making a shelter, looking after yourself, the practicalities of life?

Mark Knopfler42:45

I think I'll use every version of every every memory from every desert island thing I've ever read or seen on the box.

Presenter42:51

Uh

Mark Knopfler42:55

Um

Presenter42:55

Um

Mark Knopfler42:56

Well, I don't think I'd be much cop. Um

Presenter42:59

Not practical.

Mark Knopfler42:59

Uh

Mark Knopfler42:59

No, I don't think so at all. I don't think I'm terribly practical at all.

Presenter43:04

Hmm.

Mark Knopfler43:04

And I'd be the one furiously waving, you know, from the highest point on the island if a ship was sailing past.

Presenter43:12

Desperate for rescue.

Mark Knopfler43:13

Yeah.

Presenter43:14

You'd have your discs to keep you company, though, and you've got one more to share with us before we send you away. What's it going to be? Your final choice?

Mark Knopfler43:21

Well, yes, I know. I I realized when I was picking these things I I sh I should have really had five hundred other ones. But I love Bobby Gentry, you know, and like everybody else I you know, I love O to Billy Joe. That's the one that everybody loves and everybody knows. So I thought I'd just play

Speaker 243:37

Everybody

Mark Knopfler43:41

or suggest one that um nobody seems to know or lots of people. I always say, do you know this song, Jessie Elizabeth? It's um I think it's a great song and there's something very tender about it, but there's a little thing that that's sort of got that gothic

Speaker 243:53

Little f

Mark Knopfler43:56

Southern thing that

Mark Knopfler43:59

Bobby Gentry seems to get into what she does. This is like a it's like a mother-daughter thing, isn't it? You know, where she's whispering to her daughter who's asleep. It's a very tender thing. But there's something else, just like there always is something else. Yeah, there is something else there. But uh and and that's part that's the depth of, I think, of Bobby Gentry.

Presenter44:15

Darkness under the surface.

Speaker 244:23

Pray tell Jessie Elizabeth.

Speaker 244:30

Tell me why you're weeping Pray tell Jesse Elizabeth When you should be sleeping What secret are you keeping?

Presenter44:51

Jesse Lizzie

Speaker 244:53

Uh

Presenter44:54

Bobby Gentry and Jessie Elizabeth. So, Mark, the time's come. I'm going to cast you away to the island. I will, of course, as well as your discs, give you the books, the Bible, and the complete works of Shakespeare. You can also take another book of your choice. What would you like?

Mark Knopfler45:09

I think I'd like to take a a slim volume because, you know, I'll have to so busy reading all the Shakespeare

Mark Knopfler45:17

Penelope Fitzgerald. She wrote a little book called The Blue Flower and it's about Germany at the end of the you know, the eighteenth century. So it's the Romantic period. It's a different Europe. It's a whole y you you transport it into this whole other

Mark Knopfler45:34

Saxony and

Mark Knopfler45:36

You're in this world.

Presenter45:38

Well, you can enjoy that under your palm tree. You can also have a luxury item. What do you fancy?

Mark Knopfler45:43

Well, my luxury item from heaven would be one of my favourite guitars and a lovely thing it is.

Presenter45:52

And finally, which one track of the eight that you shared with us today would you rush to save from the wave's first, Mark?

Mark Knopfler45:59

I think it would have to be Bob, just because you know,'cause I've been just a Bob fan all my life and uh I would just like to have that to hand. I think it would be the Bob Dylan track.

Presenter46:14

Mark Knopfler, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Mark Knopfler46:19

Thank you very much for having me.

Presenter46:34

Hello, it was lovely to chat to Mark and I hope he's very happy on his island, jamming away with his guitar.

Presenter46:41

There are more than 2,000 programmes in our archive that you can listen to. We've cast many other musicians away, including Bono, Noel Gallagher, Adele and David Gilmore. You can hear their programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Discs website. The studio manager for today's programme was Jackie Marjoram, the production coordinator was Susie Roylands and the producer was Sarah Taylor. Join me next time when my guest will be the writer and creator of Peaky Blinders, Stephen Knight.

Speaker 247:20

Hello, it's Simon and David here from When It Hits the Fan. And we'd just like to tell you about our bonus series of mini episodes that's coming up over the summer. That's right, Simon. Quick Wins is the place where we answer your personal PR questions and share everything we've learned along the way about how to manage your reputation at work. That's right, David. We'll be answering some of the questions you've sent us from how to deliver unwelcome news, dealing with backstabbers at work and how to be an effective leader. These short and sweet how-to guides will be popping up in our feed. So make sure you're subscribed to When It Hits the Fan so you don't miss them. They may just change your working life.