John Boyne

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:42

My castaway this week is the author John Boyne. He's best known for the international bestseller, The Boy in the Striped Pajamas. It's a literary sensation, selling more than 11 million copies in 60 languages, making him the most translated Irish author in history, and it was adapted into film, ballet, even opera.

Presenter1:02

He is as prolific as he is popular, with 14 novels for adults and 6 for younger readers, as well as novellas and short stories under his belt. He was born and raised in Dublin, but started off writing about pretty much everywhere and everywhere else. The first 15 years of his career took him from czarist Russia to Edwardian London via both world wars. More recently, he's explored creative territory closer to home. His book, A History of Loneliness, drew on his own experience of childhood abuse at the hands of one of his teachers. He says, I want to push myself with each book. At the end of my life, I'd like to see a progression through a body of work from youthful energy, like a puppy dog jumping all over the place, to a much more thoughtful and introspective style. John Boyne, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

John Boyne1:49

Thank you very much.

Presenter1:50

So, John, I mean, prolific is the word, isn't it? You've written 25 books by my count. Does it always feel like there's more creativity to come?

John Boyne1:57

Oh, it always feels like there's a a lifetime still to come. I've never been one of those writers who says that I don't like writing, I wish I didn't have to. It still excites me as much as it did at the very start. Every time I'm finishing a book I get excited about what the the next one might be.

Presenter2:11

And is it always like that for you? Is it kind of a link in a chain, a thing after a thing, rather than multiple ideas germinating at the same time?

John Boyne2:18

I do seem to get a lot of ideas. I think sometimes if you're writing a lot and reading a lot, which I do, the brain is open to ideas. The imagination is working at full play. And I find that when I'm getting close to the end of writing a book, all the final edits, there's an idea that's kind of jumping up and down in my head and saying, this one, write me next.

Presenter2:37

I'm next.

John Boyne2:38

Yeah, so you know I already know that I'm going to be starting a new book in a few weeks and the idea that I have for it is one that I've had for about six or seven years. It's never come to the fore of my brain and now it feels right and I sort of trust my instinct.

Presenter2:50

You've learned to do that over the years. So you write for both young people and adults, though I think you prefer to think of it and describe it as who you write about, not who you write for.

John Boyne2:59

I sort of changed that wording for myself a few years back because I think that the books I've written that are ostensibly adult novels, and most of them could be read by teenagers, young people, and the same with the young adult books. These terms in a way are bookshop terms. You know, I spent seven years working in a bookshop, so it's where we put the books. When you think about books like Treasure Island or Kidnapped, I remember from my bookshop days, they were the kind of books people could come in and say, you know, do you have a copy of Treasure Island? And one bookseller might say, oh, it's in the classics. Another would say it's in the kids section. Another would say it's in general fiction. And I think back in the 19th century, writers weren't thinking in those terms necessarily. They were just thinking about telling a story. And that's what I try to do. I don't write differently when I write about adults or young people. They're just shorter books, generally for the kids' ones.

Presenter3:39

Yeah.

Presenter3:47

And you're going to be sharing your music with us today, of course. I know you've taken a lot of care over your selections. Do you listen to music while you're writing?

John Boyne3:49

Uh

John Boyne3:54

No, I don't. When I'm writing a first draft of a book, I need silence and I'd prefer to be at home in Dublin for that. However, once that first draft is done, I can take that on the road. I can sit in the corner of like a busy pub or a train, a plane, anything, and tune out the world around me and just focus on the screen before me. But once I have a draft and it's basically the bare bones of what the novel can be, then I can just take my time with it and chip away at it. I always look at it like you've suddenly got the block of stone then and you're chipping away and inside it, hopefully there's a beautiful sculpture awaiting you.

Presenter4:28

Well listen, let's get started. I'd love to hear your first disc, John. What have you got for us and why have you chosen it?

John Boyne4:33

I've Chosen Bright Eyes by Art Garfunkel. This was the first single that I bought. I think I was about seven when I bought it. And owning a single, owning a record, was just amazing to me. And so I played it over and over and over. And it is such a beautiful song. And of course, it was the theme music for the animated film of Watership Down. I remember seeing that movie and finding it very scary. It is about a lot of rabbits dying. It's heartbreaking. Yeah, and there were some quite brutal moments in it. And it's such a classic. It's such a wonderful book. And then a couple of years later, when I was about 12, it was a classroom novel in my English class. And it was great then to read it again. But I distinctly remember that a lot of us had read forward in the book, you know, because you're only reading a little bit every day. And there was going to be this point later on where the eagle, Kihar, says, piss off. And the English teacher was reading it out every day, or he was getting one of us to read. And we were all on the edge of our seats, just waiting, you know, as 12-year-olds, waiting for this day to come and waiting for that line. When it appeared, you know, we basically all just fell off the seats and rolled around, you know, in hysterics of laughter, which seems so innocent now, looking back, but it's just one of those memories that stays with me.

Speaker 45:38

Yeah.

Presenter5:42

Uh

Speaker 45:42

Yeah.

Speaker 46:03

How can the light that burns so brightly, suddenly burns so pale?

Speaker 46:11

Bright up

Presenter6:15

Art Garfunkel and Bright Eyes. So John Boyne, let's go back to the beginning of your story. You were born in Dublin in 1971 to Sean and Helen and the third of four children when you were part of quite a tight knit community.

John Boyne6:28

I think I had like a fantastic childhood. You know, my parents were fantastic. They were loving, supportive to us all. We got some great holidays. We always went down to Wexford on the southeast coast of Ireland every summer for a few weeks. You know, beautiful beaches, beautiful sea. I was an alterboy, which was actually a good experience in my life. I know some of my novels have talked about religion and the church and so on. But my experience in the Alter Boys actually was very positive because firstly we had a wonderful priest looking after us who would take us off on day trips and just give us a lot of fun. I went to a very sporty school and I was quite shy and introverted and the boys who were in the Alter Boys were perhaps a bit more nerdy, shall we say, and I got on with them a little bit better. My best friend to this day I met in Alta Boys when we were seven and you know in 45 years we always say we've literally never had a crossword.

Speaker 26:51

But

Speaker 47:11

Okay.

Presenter7:11

Yeah.

Presenter7:19

Oh.

John Boyne7:19

Um

Presenter7:20

It's a tough gig being an altar boy, though. I mean, I grew up Catholic, and you've got to know when to swing the incense, you've got to know when to stand up, when to kneel down, all of these things. Did you ever get nervous about it?

John Boyne7:24

Yeah.

John Boyne7:26

Oh yeah, yeah, but you have to do it.

John Boyne7:28

All the time. What I loved most was Easter and Christmas because we would do rehearsals and you could just, you know, rock up to the church in your tracksuit and you felt like you were putting on a show. That's the way I you know, I wasn't actually very religious. I wasn't religious at all. But I felt like we were putting on a stage show. And I just loved it.

Presenter7:40

Wasn't lit

Presenter7:44

Mm-hmm.

Presenter7:46

There is a little bit of drama in there somewhere. And obviously you started out as a reader, as all writers do. Who nurtured your love of reading when you were little?

John Boyne7:54

Uh my mum, really. We got a half day from school every Wednesday and there's this beautiful library in Dundrum in Dublin which is very close to my house and my mum would bring us all to the library every Wednesday afternoon and I remember we could take out three books. The only times we really bought books was when we were going to go on holidays and then we would go to the bookshop and we could buy books to bring with us.

Presenter8:15

So there weren't too many books in the house, but there was a a be a love of reading and a sense of its importance.

John Boyne8:19

A sense of its importance. Yeah, and my mum still goes to that library and has been going there her entire life.

Presenter8:25

John, you once said of Enid Blyton's character Noddy, I loved Noddy in ways that I have loved few men over the years.

John Boyne8:30

Yeah.

Presenter8:31

So I've got

John Boyne8:32

Duh.

Presenter8:32

Yeah.

John Boyne8:32

Yeah.

Presenter8:32

See you back.

John Boyne8:32

Oh god, I adored Naughty. He was so good. I had a little noddy outfit when I was about four, five.

Presenter8:38

Did the hat have a bell on and everything? The little triangular hat?

John Boyne8:40

I think it was the full thing, and it was very, very hard to get me out of that outfit. I could just read those stories over and over and over again.

Presenter8:42

And it was very, very

Presenter8:47

But you weren't content just to read. Even as a little kid, I think you were under ten when you decided that you wanted to be a writer.

John Boyne8:53

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean they were completely connected to me. I was writing stories from that very young age and I remember my mom and dad would do the weekly shop on a Thursday evening and I always asked her to get me paper, you know, just nice fool's cap paper. And I would write stories of, you know, naughty stories, Bobby Rooster stories. You know, I would take characters from those books and write stories for them. I would often sort of fold them up and bind them and put my name on the side and put them on the shelf. And I was just always writing. And when adults would say to me, you know, what do you want to be when you grow up? I always said, I want to write novels. And they would laugh. And I would think, you know, I don't see what's so funny about that. You know, but I guess they thought it was very precocious. I just felt it instinctively. And I didn't know if I was going to be good enough.

Presenter8:58

Yeah.

Speaker 29:30

Do you know, but it

John Boyne9:36

But I never veered away from that path that was this is what I want.

Presenter9:40

John, I want to ask you more about that, but first, I'd love to hear your second disc today. It's time for disc number two. What have you got for us?

John Boyne9:46

The Sound of Music with Julie Andrews. My mum grew up in another part of Dublin called Artain and we used to go there every Sunday for Sunday dinner to my grandparents' house. And my grandfather had a record player and I would sit down in his armchair and I would put the sound of music on and put the headphones on and I would not be moved, you know, until I'd finished the whole album. You know, I had it all memorised. I loved it. And years later, I suppose, I do think it was the sound of music that sort of began my interest in the Second World War and you know led to the time when I wrote Boy in the Striped Pajamas. You know, as a teenager, I became very interested in the Holocaust, started reading widely about it, and for years after, it was always a subject I would return to time and again in my reading, both fiction and non-fiction. If it doesn't sound like trivializing it, I think it was the sound of music that got me interested in that because there was so much lightness earlier in that film, but there's darkness later on. Rolf, who's the boyfriend of Liesl, in that, and, you know, does 16 going on 17 and 17 going on 18 at the start, and it seems light-hearted enough, but then he is the one who literally blows the whistle on them when they're trying to escape being captured later on. And in some ways, I think he influenced the creation of Lieutenant Cottler, who is in Striped Pajamas and All the Broken Places. And it is quite dark and scary later on when they do that concert in Salzburg and are fleeing and you don't know if they're going to escape or not. Yeah, this song is just one that I think brings me back to that and really led me to a big important subject in my life.

Speaker 210:20

You know, I

Speaker 210:53

Yeah.

John Boyne11:18

The hills are alive with the sound of music.

Presenter11:22

Yeah.

John Boyne11:22

Yeah.

Presenter11:22

Uh

John Boyne11:23

Who was he?

John Boyne11:25

With songs they have sung for a thousand years The hills fill my heart with the sound

John Boyne11:38

Who's the

John Boyne11:41

My heart wants to sing every song it hears.

Presenter11:48

Julie Andrews, singing the sound of music from the original film soundtrack. John Boyne, I want to ask a bit more about your mum and dad. If they were characters in one of your books, how would you describe them, do you think?

John Boyne12:00

Loving, supportive, kind.

John Boyne12:03

Always got my back, you know, they're I couldn't have wished for better parents.

Presenter12:07

And you still will live very close together.

John Boyne12:08

Yeah, we do. They live in the house that I grew up in and we're very lucky that, you know, they're totally healthy and very independent. I live about ten minutes away. My two sisters live also in the same area. We call it the Boeing Triangle because we all live around the same area. The only one who doesn't is my brother Paul who lives in Boston.

Presenter12:20

And because we all

Presenter12:24

Mm-hmm.

John Boyne12:24

But the rest of us all all live around the same area.

Presenter12:27

And I wonder, you know, that sense of Catholicism shaping the community, the life that you lived, the area that you lived in. It was pretty devout in your part of Dublin back then.

John Boyne12:38

It was, and it was a good thing, actually. You know, there was a lot of strengths to it and a lot of positives, a sort of community spirit. Everybody would go to Mass on a Sunday and there was a lot of parish things that would go on, parish faiths and so on. It's such a tragedy that that has been lost, really, you know, because of all the things that we know have gone on over the years and because of the revelations that really have come out since about 2000 in Ireland. And I remember when I was writing A History of Loneliness, interviewing the parish priest and who, you know, was telling me that they don't have alter boys or alter girls even anymore. They just can't take the risk of that because it's just not worth the risk. And there's a sadness to that, I think.

Speaker 213:00

Yeah.

Presenter13:16

So John, your own experiences. You you went to Terranier College in Dublin for secondary school, and you've talked b about the culture there. It was one of sexual and physical abuse, and it has led to teachers being prosecuted decades on.

John Boyne13:30

Yes.

Presenter13:30

So can I

John Boyne13:31

Plant convicted.

Presenter13:32

And convicted, absolutely. What were you and your fellow pupils dealing with, and how routine was the abuse that was happening?

John Boyne13:39

It was very routine and it seemed like this is just what happens. And you know, you're a kid, you trust adults, you think this is just what happens, you know, and you don't really know how to question it. There was definitely a culture of violence in the school and there was definitely a cohort of teachers, both lay teachers and priests, who were sexually abusing boys. We knew it was going on.

John Boyne14:03

As weird as this sounds, we would joke about it at thirteen. You know, we would say, oh, such-and-such is now the new favourite for such-and-such.

Presenter14:12

You would kind of recognise the dynamics as in the wider group, do you mean?

John Boyne14:15

Yeah, yeah. I mean, half the time they would do it in front of you. There would be things that would happen in a classroom and.

John Boyne14:21

you would be watching you know something

John Boyne14:23

Really inappropriate taking place, you know, touching, feeling, if I can say, even like trousers being pulled down for spankings and so on.

Speaker 214:25

Uh

Speaker 414:25

I'm touching

John Boyne14:30

As kids, you know, you laugh.

John Boyne14:32

Maybe'cause you're frightened and you don't your brain can't compute what's happening in front of you.

Presenter14:36

And also because that's how children communicate. You're trying to understand, you're trying to process what you're seeing.

John Boyne14:38

Yeah.

John Boyne14:41

And it took many years for people to have the courage to actually stand up and talk about it publicly. You know, and a few years ago.

John Boyne14:48

There was 23 guys in Dublin from various years of Terranier who jointly took a case against my English teacher, their rugby coach. I have to say, those 23 guys from Terranure, even though it took decades, they are the real heroes for me of the Terraniure story because they are the ones who then got that ball rolling. The day after that verdict, after the sentencing came down, and I was in court as a support person for a friend of mine, I went to the Garter station in Terranier and reported what had happened to me at the hands of somebody else.

Presenter15:17

It was a different

John Boyne15:17

It was a different teacher. And as it turned out, over the months that followed, quite a number of people did as well. And that teacher was then brought up on charges, arraigned. The trial was due to take place, but he died in October of natural causes. He was well into his 80s. How was that?

Presenter15:33

From your point of view, hearing that news.

John Boyne15:35

It was a very strange moment because on one hand it meant that I would not have to go into the box and tell my story and be cross-examined. On the other hand, it meant I didn't get to

John Boyne15:47

Look him in the eye and say what I wanted to say. But more importantly, I think the thing that really upset me was that I have found myself through my job, through my career, in a fortunate position. I can write about these things. I can talk about them to an audience as I'm doing right now. There are plenty of people, the majority of people, who do not have that opportunity. And standing in the box in the courtroom would have given them that opportunity, that catharsis that I get whenever I talk about it or write about it.

Presenter16:14

At the beginning when when you were just a little boy and this was starting to happen to you, how did you cope with what was going on? Because you were abused sexually but also physically. At one stage you were off school for a couple of weeks because you'd been beaten so badly.

John Boyne16:24

Pew.

John Boyne16:28

Oh yeah, yeah. We had a um a priest who who would keep um a stick up the arm of his um habit, and at the top of the stick he had a metal weight taped to it, and he called the stick Excalibur. He was terrifying. I mean he was one of the most terrifying people I've ever met in my life. And when he saw red,

John Boyne16:47

He really saw red. And I was 14 when he beat me so bad with that stick that I was out of school for a couple of weeks. And it was.

John Boyne16:54

Very difficult for parents to know what to do. And I don't blame them at all for anything there. It was the mid-80s. The church had such a hold over.

Speaker 216:56

You know, and I

John Boyne17:02

society. I think my parents were bewildered by what was going on because I was basically a good boy and I just got into trouble this one day and this happened. I was not like a regular messer, type as we would say in Dublin.

Presenter17:14

Five.

Presenter17:15

Yeah.

John Boyne17:16

The only person to blame for what happened there was was him.

Presenter17:16

Uh

Presenter17:19

I'm just trying to imagine this little boy who comes from this incredibly loving, supportive, lovely home.

Presenter17:25

And then to be plunged into that, it must have been bewildering for you.

John Boyne17:28

It was, and it's trying not to cry, you know, and

Presenter17:31

You know?

John Boyne17:33

What was great was I I also remember like at the end of class that everybody in the class kind of came to support me.

Presenter17:40

John, let's take a break with some music. It's your third choice today. Tell us what you're taking to the island next.

John Boyne17:46

One of my favourite artists of all time is Elton John. I just love and adore Elton John. I play piano and my party trick is I play your song and I do a pretty mean your song. But I haven't chosen that. I've chosen a song by Elton John that is not as well known and it's called Elton's Song and it's slightly unusual because the lyrics were not by Bernie Taupin. They were by a guy called Tom Robinson. But the song is about a boy in school who's realising he's gay and has a crush on another boy. And the fact that he has this crush has got around the school. And I did see Elton John live once actually. It was in Ada Sport Relief. So there was only like 2,000 people at it. And it was just Elton John and the piano. And he belted out all the hits and it was just amazing. It was just one of the most extraordinary musical experiences I've ever had.

Presenter17:55

Well

Speaker 217:55

But I haven't chosen

Speaker 218:01

Uh

Speaker 218:06

Yeah.

Presenter18:36

You'll always have slouch on.

John Boyne18:37

I'll always have slap. At the time I thought it was pronounced slough.

Speaker 418:46

Uh

Presenter18:46

Staring out alone.

Presenter18:49

And you great since I

Presenter18:53

Cut it to the bone.

Presenter18:56

Will you raise a blessed smile

Speaker 418:59

Um

Speaker 419:01

What playing boom?

Speaker 419:04

Some Around the Sky

Speaker 419:09

Hello

Presenter19:13

Elton's song, Elton John. John Boyne, you started writing about the experiences like those you went through at school once your career was established. But interestingly, it's not always that you write from the point of view of the victim. Time and again, you return to characters who are either guilty or more guilty than they would like to admit of committing or enabling cruelty to others. And I wonder about that. I mean, apart from telling a compelling story for the reader.

Presenter19:42

What does it give you to to get inside the head of a character like that?

John Boyne19:46

I think if there's a running theme through my books, or at least through the books of the last 15 years, it's complicity. You know, it's people who haven't committed the crime, but have known the crime is going on. And I want to understand that. You know, well, I've written about Nazis, I've written about child abusers, but I've never, within that, focused on the person committing the crime itself. Because I think if you are committing a crime like that, there's something clearly wrong with you.

John Boyne20:11

It's more interesting to me to say, but why would somebody know that's happening and do nothing about it? And growing up in Ireland during those years, when people did know a lot about what was going on and nobody did anything, it baffles me. And the other way sometimes they say about writers that it's not a writer's job to find the answers, but to pose the questions better. And I think that's what I try to do. And I try to figure those things out myself. Like in a recent book, Water, it was the wife of a... swimming coach who had committed these acts and she takes a year on an island where she has to look at 25 years of marriage and think did i know this was happening if you create a character who is pretty horrendous and does terrible things i want to know why what led them there what was their childhood you know we talked earlier about the things that happened in the school well what happened to those guys who did that in the first place they were 40 years older than us so they were growing up at an even worse time what happened to them and that's not to justify any of their actions but unless we understand what leads people to do these things and as a novelist i can create characters and invent a backstory for them and try to understand what would be their motivations

Speaker 220:58

Yeah.

Presenter21:18

John, you you knew you wanted to be a writer from when you were just a little boy and went off to study English literature at Trinity College in Dublin after school. Your student days there, I know, weren't particularly happy. What was going on? Obviously you'd been through a huge amount at at secondary school and that must have been in the mix somewhere.

John Boyne21:35

Yeah, it was partly that. It was partly being very introverted at that time, you know, very, very shy. And, you know, still, you know, late teens, still dealing with being gay and coming out. And I don't think I made the best of my experience. I made some friends there that remain my friends to this day. I don't think I made enough of the opportunities that were there, which is why when I got to the end of four years in Trinity and when I did get to UEA in Norwich, when the plane landed and my train brought me into Norwich, I said, I'm not doing that again. You know, and I threw myself into my masters with a plom, I would say.

Speaker 221:54

There.

Presenter22:07

Let's have some more music, John Point. It's time for your disc number four. What are we going to hear?

John Boyne22:10

Yeah.

John Boyne22:11

This is an important one for me because I don't know about you, but I can trace the moment of my sexual awakening in life to a very small period of time. And that period of time is between 7.02 and 7.06pm on Thursday, the 7th of November, 1985.

Presenter22:27

Okay, what was happening? Where are we? Let's go.

John Boyne22:27

What's happening? Where are we? Four minutes of time. I was sitting at home. I was watching Top of the Pops, like I always did on a Thursday night. I bet you were watching Top of the Pops as well. I'm sure.

Presenter22:37

Yeah.

John Boyne22:37

And a Norwegian band of three guys came on called Aha and at the front of that band was a guy called Martin Harkut.

Presenter22:45

Oh.

John Boyne22:45

And his hair was quiffed up and he was wearing a white T shirt and a leather jacket. His arm was covered in all these little leather straps and he sung Take On Me. And by 7.06, when he'd finished singing Take On Me,

John Boyne22:57

I was a different guy.

John Boyne22:59

So Morten, if you're listening, if you're out there somewhere, thank you for that.

Speaker 423:04

Today isn't my day to find you shy away.

Speaker 423:10

I'm a coming real love of game

Presenter23:34

Aha, and take on me. So, John Poyne, life started looking up for you when you went to study for an MA in creative writing at the University of East Anglia. What was it that changed?

John Boyne23:47

It was my first time away from Dublin independently for a year, and it was a totally new group of people. There was twelve of us on the course, twelve aspiring writers, and a good range from different countries and slightly different age groups. And I could just reinvent myself, I think, and I did. I purposefully did. So what did that look like?

Presenter24:04

So what did that look like? Talk me through it.

John Boyne24:05

Well, being gay for one thing, you know, going to gay clubs in Norwich. I don't have any hair now, but dying my hair at the time. Blonde, I think, at one point. Just being much more social. Like, I remember the first day where we all met, and Malcolm Bradbury was teaching us. It was his last year teaching before he retired. And, you know, we did all the introductions and everything. And at the end of the class, I was the first one to stand up and say, anybody going for a drink? And I felt I was in the right environment for me, writing, you know, this famous course that so many people had gone through and this famous writer teaching us. I felt very empowered by even getting on the course in the first place. And I wanted that year to really matter and count for something.

Speaker 224:15

Yeah.

Speaker 224:23

Yeah.

Speaker 224:30

Yeah.

Presenter24:44

So you made the most of it. Tell me more then about being taught by the great novelist Malcolm Bradbury. What was the most useful thing that you learned?

John Boyne24:51

From my perspective, he was very clear that I wasn't writing my own work. What I mean by that is I would give in stories and he would say, that's your Deity Salinger story, that's your Philip Roth story, that's your Market Atwood story, and it took a few years to find that own voice and what style I wanted to write in. So I think he kind of broke me out of that. We used to have this bar game that on average, a third of students would get published. And of those third, only maybe half of those would go on sort of 10, 20, 30 years still being published. So for 12 people, it meant in theory there would be four who would get published and maybe two of those who would continue to be published. And it was always changing. Who do you think it'll be?

Speaker 225:02

All right, that's your markup.

Presenter25:32

And how's the class doing now? How are we looking?

John Boyne25:33

It pretty much did that. We got about five published, I think, but four continued. So we actually had a pretty good year.

Presenter25:41

Your first published novel was The Thief of Time. What do you remember about the moment that you found out it was gonna make it to print?

John Boyne25:48

Oh, well, I was watching East Enders. I remember that. I was living in London. I was 28 and I was working in the head office. I've spent seven years in a bookchain. I was working in the head office. And I'd got an agent a year before, and he had sent the book out in, I think, June of that year to about 20 publishers. And he'd done it sort of where on such and such a date, as an auction that, you know, we'd like your offers in if you're interested in this book by close of business on, let's say, 7th of June, for argument's sake. And that day came and no offers. And I was absolutely devastated. I felt, you know, and I had already had a couple of novels rejected, but I was devastated. I felt it's never going to happen for me. I was already seeing the other students get published. I went home to this miserable little flat I was living in and I remember just sitting there just thinking I'm hopeless and my life is not going to work out. Unbeknownst to me, he continued sending the book out and the Frankfurt Book Fair came around in October and I was at home watching East Enders and the phone rang and it was my agent Simon Truan and he said I have some news for you.

John Boyne26:51

I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't waiting for the call. And my life changed in that moment. I was like,

John Boyne26:57

It's actually happening, it's actually happening and I got a two-book deal with Weidenfeld and Nicholson and I just felt all of those years of hard work, dedication, believing in myself and my parents believing in me, it had gone good. When the check came through, I went back to Dublin because to be honest, I wasn't loving living in London. I had about, you know, £10 to my name on any given week. I was happy enough to go back to being a bookseller in Dublin first. And I knew it would take another couple of years before I could write full-time.

Speaker 227:18

Uh

Presenter27:18

Yeah.

Presenter27:25

You left your job at the bookshop in quite dramatic fashion. One evening, you were at the pub with your fellow booksellers. How did it happen?

John Boyne27:32

It was the 20th of January 2003. It was payday. And seven years there. And my first two books had come out and they hadn't really sold very well. And my editor in the publishing house who had bought my books had left. And so nobody owned me anymore. That's a difficult position to be in. It is. If you don't have the championship. If you don't have a champion. So I had delivered what became my third novel, Crippen, and it had been rejected by Orion. And it felt like, is it over? before it's all begun. This was supposed to be the start of everything. And so 2002 was a very miserable year for me because that's when I was out of contract and had nothing going on. Anyway, it got to this point at the start of 03. By then I was manager of the shop and I was working 12 hours a day. It was, you know, we had a staff of like 45 people and there was always something. So we went to the pub, about eight or nine of us, and everybody was complaining. Everybody, you know, about their jobs and how they hated their job and they hated the management, i.e. me. I just saw red. I always loved working there, but it got to a point where I hated it. And I took the keys of the shop out, threw them on the table. I said, look, one of you, you can open up tomorrow. I'm out. I retire. I resign. I went home. I emailed the area manager with about, you know, seven pints in me. And emailed the area manager and said, I'm out. I won't be back tomorrow and I won't be back again. Woke up the next morning and I was like,

Presenter27:48

Mm, that's a difficult position to be in.

Presenter27:51

You don't have a chump.

John Boyne28:51

What

John Boyne28:53

Yeah.

John Boyne28:54

But I stuck to it. I never went back. Within five days I had moved from Dublin to Wexford and I took our little house on the beach and walked every day, swam every day, wrote and worked to get myself back into an industry that very rarely gives second chances.

Presenter29:12

We'll find out what will happen next. First, though, it's time for your fifth choice today, John Boyne.

John Boyne29:16

It's going to be A Lullaby for Kane by Sinead O'Connor. There's a couple of reasons for this. Well, firstly, it's a beautiful song written by Gabrielle Yarrod. I was lucky enough to meet her a few times. I had dinner with her once. And she was fragile, interesting, beautiful. And there was a strength as well inside her. And she has done so much for Irish people, I think, Irish children and women in particular. Back in the day, you know, when she ripped up that picture of the Pope on Saturday Night Live and she was... you know, castigated all over the world and there was a period of time where Irish people were up in arms against her. She was proved right. But also this song appears in the opening scene of The Talented Mr. Ripley, directed by Anthony Mangella. And that's a film that I love. And Anthony Mangella played a big part in me getting my career back.

Speaker 229:27

What do you like?

John Boyne30:06

So during that year that I mentioned in 2003,

John Boyne30:09

One morning I was listening to the radio and Anthony was being interviewed and he was talking about his creative process and he sounded so interesting and so thoughtful on it that I I did something that I just normally would never even think of doing, which is I wrote him a letter and I explained who I was. I published a couple of books and I said what was what had happened, that my

John Boyne30:29

I was lost. You know, I no longer had a publisher and I didn't know what to do. And I just asked for his advice. I didn't expect to hear back from him.

John Boyne30:37

But email had just arrived I suppose on the scene and about a week later he emailed me and he sent me a lovely email with lots of um support and then he finished it by saying, you know, if you're ever in London, you know, let's meet up and I was like, oh well by chance, yes, I'm going to be in London next Tuesday you know. I you know I wasn't gonna miss that opportunity.

John Boyne30:56

Yeah, so I went to London a week or two later and he invited me out to his production office and we met and we went for lunch and we talked and over the course of you know eight, nine months or something, you know, we stayed in touch quite a bit and the last time I had spoken to him was actually in 2008 and it was when I had the dates for when the London premiere of Boy in the Stripe Pajamas movie was going to take place and of course I was inviting him. Sadly he didn't make it because he passed away. But what I always think about him was he was just this very kind man who had had no reason to offer his hand of friendship and support to this Irish kid who he never knew before and that wasn't even making films. And yet he just did. And I thought, you know, isn't that a wonderful thing for a person to do?

Speaker 431:45

Sing all

Presenter31:47

Hello

Presenter31:52

Mother is close by.

Presenter31:59

Innocent dies, such innocent doors can be stolen.

Presenter32:15

Sinead O'Connor and Lullaby for Kane from the film soundtrack to The Talented Mr Ripley.

Presenter32:21

John Boyne, everything changed for you in 2006 with the publication of your breakthrough bestseller, The Boy in the Striped Pajamas. It was one of those comet-like literary phenomena that only come along very rarely. 11 million copies sold, a glittering array of prizes won. But that first draft, I know, was written in just two and a half days. The two and a half days before your birthday, funnily enough.

John Boyne32:44

Yes.

Presenter32:44

Talk me through that phrenetic writing process.

John Boyne32:47

Well, I mentioned earlier that I had been a student of Holocaust literature since my teens and had read so widely on it. But I also said that I never thought I would write about it because I didn't think I would have a story that I wanted to tell. But I had the idea for Striped Pajamas on a Tuesday night. And all the idea was was an image in my head of two boys sitting on either side of a fence talking to each other. And I immediately knew where that fence was. And I sat down the next morning and I just started to write. And I wouldn't normally just sit down and say, right, I'm going to start writing a novel today. But I didn't know what it was. I didn't know if it was a short story, a novel, what it was. And I wrote about three chapters when I thought to myself, this is actually a children's book, perhaps. I'd never thought about writing for kids before, but because there was a child at the center of it, Bruno, I thought this is maybe for young people. And I thought, that's fine. Just keep writing. And by the end of the first day, of Wednesday,

John Boyne33:37

The story was pouring out to me so much and I never had an experience like it that I thought if I go to sleep I'm gonna lose this. So I stayed up and I kept, I mean I would take breaks between chapters and you know, you know, have a cup of tea or a sandwich or something. But I wrote all the way through Wednesday, I wrote all the way through Thursday and I finished that first draft on Friday at lunchtime. And it was like my body, my mind had been taken over by something and I didn't want to analyze it. You know, I didn't want to start plotting it out or anything. I just wanted to keep writing and just see where it takes me.

Presenter34:01

Now

Presenter34:03

Yeah.

Presenter34:05

So there was obviously part of you that knew that you had a huge hit on your hands. This was different.

John Boyne34:10

I knew it was a mess, as all first drafts were, but I knew with inside it there was something very powerful. And I felt so excited, you know, because I thought.

John Boyne34:21

This book is going to find me a readership and I think it's an important book. I think I have an important story here and I think people are going to like it. Now I did not think that 20 years later I would still be talking about that book and I didn't think about the journey it would go on and the ups and downs it's gone on in a way over the years.

Presenter34:32

Okay, I didn't think of it.

Presenter34:36

Over the

Presenter34:36

Uh

John Boyne34:36

It's pro

Presenter34:37

come a film, an opera, a musical, a ballet. How do you see that story now? It it poured out of you like nothing else had up to that point. It is it sounds like a once in a lifetime experience.

John Boyne34:47

It is, and I think it's a once-in-a-lifetime experience that most writers don't get in that way. You know, I was just very fortunate in the way that it happened. It's the defining book of my life, and it will always be. And there's a lot of people who don't like the book, and that's fine. You're allowed not to like a piece of literature. But there are so many people who do, and who have said so many wonderful things to me over the years. And through that book, you know, I got to meet.

John Boyne35:09

Holocaust survivors around the world, which is one of the most extraordinary experiences I've had, and speak at Holocaust Memorial Museums and so on. And that's been something that I will remember because, of course, I'm part of that last generation of writers who really gets that opportunity because there were very few le left with us. So that's been a privilege, really.

Presenter35:24

Because the ref

Presenter35:28

As you said, this book has had an incredible life and it's also had some ups and downs. In recent years, there has been some criticism of The Boy in the Striped Pajamas from historians and Jewish groups who object to the fictionalized nature of the story. And you've also said that it might not be published if you submitted it today. Why not?

John Boyne35:46

I think that the current climate that we're living in in publishing is very nervous of anything that could potentially be controversial.

John Boyne35:54

My view on that book, and I have listened to a lot of the criticism, I've taken it in. Some of it I understand, some of it I don't understand. But what I feel about it is that it is a novel. It's subtitled A Fable, a work of fiction with a moral at the centre. It was never pretending to be anything more than that. If you want the facts of the Holocaust, don't read a novel, read a non-fiction work. And in all the schools I've gone to over the years around the world, I've always made it clear to children, this is a made-up story. These boys did not exist. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. The historians would say, well, you know, this should not be used as a tool in studying the Holocaust. Of course, it shouldn't be. It's a novel. If you're studying, use a wide range of things. Read non-fiction. Again, I did not write a textbook. The one thing I would say absolutely in my defense is a whole generation of children has grown up and read that book and has got some insight into the Holocaust. And maybe some of them have gone on and read further about it and got interested in it. And that itself, I think, is something to be proud of.

Presenter36:56

Let's have some more music, John Poyne. It's time for your sixth disc today. What are we going to hear?

John Boyne37:01

A few years ago, a young Jewish composer called Noah Max contacted me and wanted to turn the book into an opera. He was only like 22 or something at the time. And we talked a bit and I said, go ahead, see what you can do. But the first person to talk to, I said, isn't actually me, because I don't own the rights to those kind of adaptations. Once the movie was made, you know, it was sold to Miramax. And Noah went to Miramax and Miramax said to him, sure, you can do it. One million pounds, please. And Noah was like, well, I don't have a million pounds. Anyway, so I went back and forth for ages. He refused to let go. He was so tenacious. And he finally got them down to like a manageable number. And he produced this opera and this beautiful opera. He then subsequently wrote a new piece for a string quartet. He works for the Tippett Quartet. And he dedicated the piece to me because we've become good friends and because I supported him on this. So string quartet number four by Noah Max.

Presenter38:46

String Quartet No. 4 by Noah Max, performed by The Tippet Quartet. Joan Boyne, you didn't set a novel in Ireland until twenty fourteen. You were in your early forties by that point and it was a history of loneliness. Why did you wait?

John Boyne39:01

Well, the true answer to that is probably different than the answer that I always used to give people. Well, I used to say though at the start to people, because most Irish writers do write about Ireland. And people used to ask me, why don't I? And I would say, well, you know, I just don't haven't got a story to tell yet. And I think actually I needed to wait until I was in a place in my life where I was... personally feeling secure in my career, in my personal life. I'd met somebody, formed a long-term relationship, and I felt confident enough to talk about things that had happened in the past. And for the first time, I decided I'd not only set a book in Ireland, but write something very personal.

Presenter39:06

Yeah.

John Boyne39:38

And once I started writing it and started writing about the streets in which I grew up, the churches I had attended, the floodgates opened. Even though it's a dark book, it was actually a very pleasurable book for me to write because I was. It was good to get it out. Oh, yeah, yeah. Subconsciously, I needed to wait until I was in that secure place in my life where I felt happy to talk about those things.

Presenter39:50

Oh yeah.

Presenter39:58

It was a landmark release for you, but the time that followed the book's release was a difficult one for you because the relationship that you'd been in, which had allowed you the security to write it,

John Boyne40:07

Thirty two

Presenter40:08

broke up the the year after it was published, I think, twenty sixteen? Yes.

John Boyne40:12

Yes, that's right.

Presenter40:12

And it wasn't your choice that the relationship ended. I know you were absolutely devastated, but I do think that in the aftermath you managed to keep writing.

John Boyne40:21

It was an 11-year relationship and it did seem to me to be the relationship that was going to last for the rest of our lives. It was a big shock to me when it came to an end and I really did struggle for a long time because, you know, I just missed him for one thing very much. And then that's all the associated hurt and pain. So I did struggle with that. And writing was the thing that just kept me going. I produced some of my best books during the period where I was at my lowest. Hearts Invisible Furies is probably the book that people like the most of mine, that nobody criticises too much. And I wrote that during it. I wrote A Ladder to the Sky during it, which people like. I'm so thankful to writing because it gives me my sense of self. It gives me...

Speaker 240:32

For

Speaker 240:35

Very much

Speaker 240:51

Yeah.

John Boyne41:00

It gives me a reason to get out of bed every morning. Psychologically, I seem to be able to separate the two things. I look back at those years and think, God, you know, there was pretty some dark days there.

Speaker 241:01

Thank you.

Presenter41:04

To separate the two things.

Presenter41:08

Alright, it's time for some more music, John. Your seventh choice today. What's next?

John Boyne41:12

Sometimes the songs that is personal do not reflect a happy time, but reflect something sad. And we were talking there earlier about the end of that 11-year relationship. We were actually in a civil partnership, and we had that wedding day type thing for a civil partnership, and it was a lovely, lovely day. And the first song that we had was Make Your Own Kind of Music by Mama Cass. And it was a song that we both really loved, but particularly because of the lyrics in it, where nobody can tell you there's only one song worth singing. They may try and sell you because it burns them up to see someone like you, but you've got to make your own kind of music. So it seemed like appropriate. So whenever I hear that song, I remember that day in that hotel in Dublin and that dance and the sense that we could do a civil partnership that I had after years of like wondering whether my life would come together. I had met somebody. It was a very loving day. It's not a day I regret, but it's a sad memory as well. But it's a great song too.

Speaker 442:06

Nobody can

Presenter42:08

And for you.

Presenter42:10

There's only one song worth singing They may try and sell ya Cause it hangs them up To see someone like you

John Boyne42:19

Uh

Speaker 442:25

But you've gotta make your own kind of music, sing your own special song, make your own

Presenter42:38

Mama Cass and make your own kind of music. So, John Boyne, you write at home in a quiet suburb of South Dublin in the Boyne Triangle, which we've already heard about. And your house is absolutely beautiful. It is lined with vividly coloured bookshelves, meticulously arranged, and it actually won Ireland's Celebrity Home of the Year one year. You describe that as your proudest achievement.

John Boyne42:59

I think it is. I think it is. The thing that saddened me was they didn't give me a prize. I didn't want it.

Presenter43:04

I just wanted you know, didn't even get Voss.

John Boyne43:07

Nothing. I wanted like something to put on the the shelf, you know.

Presenter43:10

Yeah. So you redesigned the place completely after you got divorced. Was that therapeutic?

John Boyne43:14

After the breakups, yes.

John Boyne43:15

Oh yeah, every corner had a memory in it. So I couldn't like I just structurally re-changed it every you know

Presenter43:21

Exactly.

John Boyne43:22

Exactly, yeah. And the way that you would have looked at the television is now you look at it a different way, you know. So I changed it all, opened up the the roof, a ladder to the sky up there, you know, putting books up there, just changed it ex you know, one of the positives was that, you know, I could just do this exactly as I wanted.

Presenter43:37

You've also got an ego room. Now, every writer should have one. What's yours like?

John Boyne43:41

Yes, it's a room out the back of my house in the garden, and I put all the editions of my own books out there, all the foreign language editions. I don't keep them in the house itself. It's just a nice place to store them and any prizes I've won along the way. It's handy to have it, and it's also where I work, but it's also nice sometimes to just go out there and look and say,

John Boyne44:00

I did okay.

Presenter44:00

If you're having a self-doubt day, I can imagine.

John Boyne44:02

Which everybody gets. I think there's nothing wrong with once in a while sort of giving yourself a bit of a clap on the back.

Presenter44:09

So we're going to be casting you away to the desert island shortly. I wonder what kind of environment, what kind of island you're imagining?

John Boyne44:16

something peaceful. I mean, obviously I'm the only person there, so it would be peaceful, but I do like quiet most of the time. Actually, I'm good with solitude. I'm good traveling on my own. So I think a desert island would suit me quite nicely.

Presenter44:29

What will you miss the most?

John Boyne44:31

My family. They're the people I rely on the most that I see a lot of. Every few days I would see one of my sisters or my nephew or niece or my parents. So th it would definitely be them.

Presenter44:40

And what about the practical side, fending for yourself? I mean, you know, you talked about redesigning your home. How practical are you? Hopeless.

John Boyne44:48

Oh, I won't survive very long. You know, I don't even know if I'd survive long enough to hear all eight songs. Uh I wouldn't be able to build it. I can't ha you know, hammer a nail into a wall.

Presenter44:56

Okay.

John Boyne44:56

You know, when you see those kind of movies like Castaway or something and they they figure out how to open coconuts, it's not going to happen. You know, I'll be eating sand by the end of week two.

Presenter45:04

Alright, well I think we've better make sure you've got all eight discs with you when we send you away, John. So it's your final choice. What's it going to be next?

John Boyne45:11

Probably as much as any novelist has influenced me, this singer has. I fell in love with Kate Bush when I was a child. I just became an Instant fan. And when I was fourteen, that's when Hands of Love came out. And that's the album that, you know, is my favourite album probably of all time. I have a tattoo here on my right arm.

Presenter45:30

Now I noticed that as soon as you came in because I recognized that the font that it's in. So that's from her live show. There was Confetti that fell from the ceiling at the end of her gig in Hammersmith.

John Boyne45:30

Is that

John Boyne45:34

It since

John Boyne45:40

That's right, and on that piece of confetti it said wave after wave and it was written in the same font that's used on the back of Hands of Love album, which is the quote from Mort Arthur, Tennyson's Mort Arthur. And so I got that tattoo the day after the concert. She writes these extraordinary songs, but I love the storytelling in her albums as well. So I went for a song called Night of the Swallow, which is on The Dreaming, which was released in 1982. And there's a wonderful story to this as well, about, you know, a smuggler. It always feels to me like it's about a smuggler and highwayman type thing. Like with Elton's song, I feel this is a song that people should know better.

Speaker 446:18

The highway with no names ventured. Tonight's the night of the night, they're far enough. I'll be over the war. Tonight is for no one. There's no rest in our whistle up there, no more lights. No picks in by the never mind. They frozen as the night upon.

Presenter46:47

Kate Bush and Knight of the Swallow. So, John Boyne, the time has come. I'm going to cast you away to the island. I'm giving you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to take with you. You can also have a book of your own choice. What would you like?

John Boyne47:00

I'm really surprised by the book that I ended up choosing. I spent a lot of, because obviously I'm a writer, I spent a lot of time thinking about this one. I don't read a lot of poetry, I have to say. I've always struggled with poetry. But the book I've chosen is a book of poems, actually. It's The Wasteland by T.S. Eliot. And the reason I've chosen it is it's a book I go back to time and again. I've read it many times. There's such storytelling in it. I still probably am only 10% of the way in terms of understanding what it's all about. And I thought this book is something I could read over and over and over again, all the sections of the different voices, the different characters that come in and find something new in it every time. Which, like with the best albums, that's what you want. You want to find something new every time. So I thought I would take that with me, that.

Presenter47:46

That's a beautiful choice. You can also have a luxury item. What will that be?

John Boyne47:49

This was a tough one. Originally I thought maybe a piano, but then I thought no. I thought if I'm going to survive on this island, there's one thing that I need to be entertained. So I want a little D V D player that just plays one film, and it is the the greatest film ever made in the history of cinema.

Presenter48:05

Go on.

John Boyne48:05

So some people might think it's The Godfather, some people might think it's Lawrence of Arabia, but I think all sensible people know that the greatest movie ever made is The Devil Wears Prada. I just want to sit and watch The Devil Wears Prada over and over and over. And honestly, there's probably no more than three months go by every so often that I do not sit down and watch The Devil Wears Prada. Well, I quite understand that. So I think that would get me through. You know, it would make me laugh.

Presenter48:27

Well, I quite understand.

Presenter48:32

Okay, so we need to set up a screen. So, would you like a sort of drop-down kind of outdoor cinema scenario? I can do that for you.

John Boyne48:39

Yeah, that would be nice. Thank you.

Presenter48:40

Okay, consider it done. And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves?

John Boyne48:42

Thank you.

John Boyne48:47

It was either gonna be Elson John or Kate Bush, because I love them both so much, but I at the end, I've gotta go with Kate Bush, Night of the Swallow. I've probably heard Night that song.

John Boyne48:57

five thousand times in my life and it still sends chills down me.

Presenter49:01

John Boyne, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

John Boyne49:04

Thank you.

Presenter49:18

Hello, it was lovely to chat to John and I hope he's happy on his island re-watching his film choice. There are more than 2,000 programmes in our archive which you can listen to. We've cast away many writers over the years including Anne Enright, Zadie Smith and Roaldahl. You can hear their programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Disc's website. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley, the production coordinator was Susie Roylands, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky and the producer was Sarah Taylor. The series editor is John Gowdy. Join me next time when my guest will be the actor Rebel Wilson.

Speaker 450:23

But she needs to see this.

Presenter50:24

She needs to see Paddington too, apparently, so keep it brief.

Speaker 450:26

Nobody, comma, in the country, comma, can access any of their money. Full stop.

Speaker 450:35

Money Gone. A new fast-paced satirical thriller from BBC Radio 4. What does everyone need in a zombie apocalypse? Oh, baseball bands. Health kits. A world in crisis.

Speaker 250:46

He's signalling to us. He might need help.

Speaker 450:49

Yeah, he could be a hijack for all we know. Look at him. After our petrol or our bodies. How thin are the barriers between civilization and chaos when no one can access their money?

Presenter50:58

I am a law-abiding citizen. I haven't done anything. This is it now. They have started the cult.

Presenter51:06

Your money's gone, because you're redundant now.

Presenter51:09

I don't need you.

Speaker 451:11

It isn't.

Presenter51:11

Uh

Speaker 451:11

Uh

Speaker 451:13

The Powers That Be

Presenter51:20

Money Gone Available on BBC Sounds.

Presenter51:24

It's the Great Reset.