Rita Rae

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:44

My castaway this week is the Honourable Lady Ray, Rita Ray. She's one of Scotland's most eminent judges. Her legal career has spanned five decades and brought some of Scotland's most notorious criminals to justice. She was born in Glasgow and from a young age she was determined to follow in the footsteps of her Italian grandfather, a lawyer who had taken a stand against the country's fascist regime and risked his life in the pursuit of justice. She qualified as a solicitor in 1974. She was 24 and was told by her new boss that women were emotionally unsuitable for court work. She set about proving him wrong. She was called to the bar in 1982, one of just 13 female advocates in Scotland at the time. After five years working on some of the country's most infamous criminal cases, she became a judge and quickly earned a reputation for executing her duties without mincing her words. In 2021, she was elected the first female working rector in the University of Glasgow's 570-year history.

Presenter1:48

She says, My approach has always been: do not dwell on the disadvantages. Try not to think about them. One should follow one's ambition, whatever hurdles present themselves. Lady Ray, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you. So, Rita, you describe the law as your passion. I wonder what it was about the law itself that ignited that when you were young.

Rita Rae2:10

It was always about the justice of everything, and I must have been very annoying when I was.

Rita Rae2:15

Very young, because I would argue back if I thought that something wasn't fair and

Rita Rae2:21

Got a reputation from my parents of being the last word.

Presenter2:25

That was your nickname when you were growing up, yeah.

Rita Rae2:26

Yeah, I must have annoyed my parents terribly, but i I think essentially it was hearing the stories of my grandfather that gave me that.

Presenter2:35

Mm.

Rita Rae2:35

Ambition

Presenter2:36

And we'll hear much more about him in a moment, Rita. But when talking about the criminals that you've sentenced, you've always been extremely careful with the words you use. You would never, for example, describe someone as evil.

Rita Rae2:48

I would never use that term when talking about the accused. I would.

Rita Rae2:53

use that term when talking about the crime, but I've always tried to attach the adjective.

Rita Rae3:00

to the crime

Rita Rae3:02

and not to the individual.

Presenter3:03

And what's the purpose of that? What's the thought behind you?

Rita Rae3:05

Because I've got a human being in front of me. Some people might not think that because of the awful crime, but I'm not there to judge them as an individual. I'm there to deal with the crime that they have committed.

Rita Rae3:19

And therefore I do not call people names, so to speak.

Rita Rae3:23

It's time for your first piece of music, Rita. What have you chosen? Rachmaninoff's piano concerto. Why have you chosen it? Because I've always wanted to learn the piano. I've got a beautiful piano and I haven't had the persistence in learning. I used to get lessons when I was very young, but I was one of these children who always wants to be out in the country outside. And unfortunately, I and my brother used to hide from the piano teacher who then told on us. But I just love the piano. I love piano music and I really need to get down to trying to learn it.

Presenter3:58

Alright, let's fire in then Rachmaninoff's piano concerto number two.

Presenter4:53

Part of the third movement from Rachmaninoff's second piano concerto with Vladimir Ashkenazi and the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Andrei Previn.

Presenter5:03

Rita Ray, your maternal grandfather, Carlo, is the person who inspired you to become a lawyer. Tell us about him. How did he set that example for you?

Rita Rae5:12

Well, I never met him and it was really only listening to stories about him through my grandmother and my mother. He was a well-known, outspoken anti-fascist. He was from Naples. He was from Naples. He was a highly respected lawyer. And he wouldn't keep quiet. My mother remembered my grandmother saying to him when he was going out, don't speak. And this was because she was worried that if he spoke out, he would be arrested. From what I can gather, he was wholly against Mussolini. He would not compromise his principles. But then he died just before war broke out. Correct. 1937. And I remember finding his, or my mother showed it to me, his law degree. And my great ambition was to have his law degree sitting next to mine. Does it? It does. And do you know anything about the kind of cases that he took on as a lawyer? It was mostly civil work. But one of the things he used to do, because he wasn't a very rich lawyer, he would read a set of papers. He would think, you've got no case. So he would return them, and when they said, well, what's your fee? he would say no I haven't done anything.

Rita Rae6:23

So it wasn't all about money, it was about

Rita Rae6:26

Doing the right thing.

Presenter6:27

So tell me about your grandmother and her having to deal with your grandfather's refusal to compromise. She sounds like a quite a strong character in her own mind.

Rita Rae6:35

She she from Yeah, she well, she certainly was. Um, because my uh mother after she'd married and came to this country, went back six months later and brought my grandmother over and she never really learned English. So that's why we were brought up bilingual. But she was strong. Oh

Rita Rae6:52

She never lamented in any way, not that I'm aware of. It was that generation they just got on with things, they didn't complain. I think that that enhanced my admiration of them.

Presenter7:04

It's time to hear some more music, Rita Ray. Your second choice, if you would. What is it going to be?

Rita Rae7:09

Ber de la Traviata and then it was difficult to choose a piece in that because that is my first love of opera. I was eight and my mother, who used to go to the opera with my father, she bought an L P of Traviata and I remember playing this and listening to it and reading the story about it and at that age in tears. It's absolutely beautiful.

Rita Rae7:42

No!

Speaker 28:09

DOG

Speaker 28:11

Uh

Rita Rae8:11

Uh

Speaker 28:11

What do you think?

Speaker 28:26

Ianti, I'm cheating, I'm sure.

Presenter8:49

Adite Allegiovine from Verdi's La Traviata with Angela Giorgiu and Leo Nucci, conducted by George Schulte.

Presenter8:58

So tell me a little bit more about your parents' story then, Rita. Your father, Sandy, met your mother Bianca in Italy just after the war, I think 1946. It was 1946.

Rita Rae9:07

It was nineteen forty six, yes.

Presenter9:08

What led to their meeting?

Rita Rae9:10

Mum had finally found a job. They were bombed several times in Naples and eventually had to move out to a place called Nola, which is just outside Naples. She was working in a kind of secretarial role in charge of a team of women who were working in what was a munitions factory. And my father was a bomb disposal expert who remained in Italy after the war. My father was in a pristine suit walking through this factory and there was a girl and she was carrying a box of munitions and one of the supervisors had seen, female supervisor, had seen my father walking through and this girl walking, obviously going to bump into him because it was a narrow space that they had to pass through.

Rita Rae9:58

So she shouted at the girl to stop, and of course the words in Italian for stop, I think she said basta, basta, to try and stop her. And of course my father

Rita Rae10:10

being the Scotsman, immediately thought that she was swearing at him.

Rita Rae10:14

I find this difficult to believe about my father, but apparently he got really angry and wanted her sacked, that she was calling him names. And the next thing that happened was that an officer was brought in and mum who was in charge of all of this. And when the officer who could speak Italian spoke to I think mum and everything was explained as to what happened, they all started to laugh. He was a lovely man. He was very embarrassed. He went out and bought some flowers. He obviously clocked my mum, as we would say, and he brought her the flowers because she was not the girl who was.

Presenter10:49

And not the girl.

Rita Rae10:52

And that that's how they made

Presenter10:53

So he took a shine to her immediately and obviously it was mutual because they got married six months later. They did. But neither of them spoke each other's language.

Presenter11:03

So how do they communicate?

Rita Rae11:04

I think she started to to learn English uh and uh dad never really learned proper Italian. He he he understood a lot, but he didn't learn Italian the same way his mum learned English.

Presenter11:15

How did your father's side of the family take to their new Italian family?

Rita Rae11:19

Yeah.

Rita Rae11:23

She was the enemy and I suppose you can understand that, it was 1946, but she was a Roman Catholic and my father was not Catholic. When dad went home to tell his father that the first grandchild was about to be born, you're proud to bring another Catholic into the world?

Presenter11:39

This is your brother.

Rita Rae11:47

So how did Your mother did.

Rita Rae11:49

Well, there was not a lot she could do, but what she did do was to insist that my father maintained his connection with his family.

Presenter11:58

And what about later in life? Was there ever a a a moment of reconciliation? The w

Rita Rae12:04

It wasn't really a reconciliation, but when his sister was dying and in hospital, my mother went to see her and that sister turned round and said that she was so sorry for what they'd done to her.

Presenter12:19

So you were born in Glasgow, 1950, but grew up in Plains just outside Airdrie to the east of the city. Yes. What was it like growing up there?

Rita Rae12:26

Awful

Rita Rae12:28

Uh

Presenter12:28

Uh Bye.

Rita Rae12:28

Oh, it was it was a it was a mining village and we were never really accepted. We were we were foreigners there, so to speak, and and the conditions that we lived in were not great. Things were shouted. But I was very shy, I was very overweight, so it was quite a lonely upbringing.

Presenter12:43

Yeah. Uh did you take comfort from your relationships with your family? It's

Rita Rae12:48

Uh

Presenter12:49

Rita, it's time for your third piece of music today. Disc number three, what have you got for us and why have you chosen it?

Rita Rae12:54

This is a piece of music which I heard again when I was very young and found difficult to listen to without being in tears, as was my mum. It's called Mamma by Benny Miniogli. It's a beautiful song. It's basically written at a time, I think it was 1940, the war was on, about a soldier singing about his mother.

Speaker 213:18

Mama Solo Pertera mía can a swona mama sarai co metolore sara vio

Speaker 213:48

Hey God.

Presenter13:50

Mama, performed by Benjamino Gigli with the studio orchestra conducted by Dino Olivieri.

Presenter13:57

Reiterate, what did your father do after the war when he came back to Scotland?

Rita Rae14:02

Well, when he came back to Scotland, obviously he was married and had to work. I think it was then that he trained as as a butcher.

Rita Rae14:09

He then moved on to doing a van driver, working with van driver. They then had a small cafe and that was my mother had an accident, so that went pear shape. But I think he would have loved to have gone into further education.

Rita Rae14:22

But when he came back he was married and then he had two of a family, so they came first.

Presenter14:26

So you mentioned your mother's accident. She was involved in a terrible car accident. You were 13 at the time. What actually happened?

Rita Rae14:34

Well, mum in the evening, I think it was a Saturday evening, would go and collect my dad late at night after he'd finished work. And often she would take my brother and he would have been in the passenger seat. But this night, I don't know what he'd done, he probably said something that he shouldn't have done. And Mum told him he wasn't coming. So she went into Glasgow. And just in a place called Burgetti, a car overtook another car on the other side of oncoming traffic, collided with a motorcyclist, killing his pillion passenger. And then Mum's car stopped his, so it was a head-on collision striking mum's car. And the engine.

Rita Rae15:16

I understand ended up in the passenger seat.

Rita Rae15:19

So if Charlie had been there, he wouldn't have lived. She wasn't meant to survive at all. What were her injuries? There were so many. I mean, she had heart failure, 14 broken ribs, punctured lungs, two broken legs, fractured skull. She was in intensive care for six weeks or something of that sort. And that's when I mean, she told us after she heard someone saying, a nurse saying, There's no point with this one, she's not going to survive.

Presenter15:23

What were heritages?

Presenter15:32

Bah.

Rita Rae15:45

Don't challenge my mum.

Presenter15:48

So so this is 1973, so she's in hospital for in in intensive care for an extended period. Were you able to see her? Did you know what her condition was?

Rita Rae15:54

Yes.

Rita Rae15:56

Did you know what her condition was? No. We we were told very, very little. Eventually when she came home, I mean I changed because from you know selfish thirteen year old, you then have to take on a role and try to help. It made me grow up.

Presenter16:05

Mm.

Presenter16:13

Hmm.

Presenter16:14

Did you ever find out what happened to the driver?

Rita Rae16:17

I think he was fined.

Presenter16:19

I think

Rita Rae16:19

I think for Keela's driving.

Presenter16:21

And some good in a strange way did come out of that dreadful time. Your mother actually got back in contact with her family in Italy.

Rita Rae16:28

She eventually got a small piece of compensation, not much, but it allowed us to buy a car and to allowed us to visit Italy for the first time. But she lost contact with all her family and the only way she could think of getting in touch,'cause she'd lost the addresses, was to write a letter to a famous fashion designer in Rome.

Rita Rae16:50

Who had married my mum's cousin. He had a boutique near the Spanish steppes, and she wrote a letter to Emilio Schubert Rome.

Rita Rae16:58

And he got it.

Presenter16:59

So what was it like going there with her and your first time in the country?

Rita Rae17:03

Not having had a family before, you were literally enveloped. You know, suddenly there's everybody's coming and hugging you and all the rest of it. And and it was just shock, I think, is is the the only way I could describe it. So I'm picturing you in an Italian kitchen with a a huge

Presenter17:17

Da

Rita Rae17:18

Extended family? Sort of, yeah. Um I had three elderly aunts and they had a

Rita Rae17:24

She wasn't a maid, she was more one of the family, and I spent all the time in the kitchen with Philomena learning all sorts of things.

Presenter17:31

It's time for some more music, Rita Ray, your fourth choice today. What are we gonna hear?

Rita Rae17:35

Uh

Presenter17:35

Next.

Rita Rae17:36

You know, the Neapolitans are so full of life and music is such an important part, both from the classical point of view but also from the Neapolitan. I mean I feel as if I'm not just half Italian but half Neapolitan as well. So there had to be a piece from one of the very popular singers in Naples, Massimo Ranieri. This was one of the ones that I really like as Arangeu Monamour.

Speaker 118:03

Aram Queens es chezormaila sera sudite.

Speaker 118:12

Esu cuesto mio viso legera que el lo que el tempo es quito ja

Speaker 118:23

Inum jorno lung tarno.

Presenter18:30

Ararque Monamor, Massimo Ranieri, arranged and conducted by Enrico Polito. Rita Rey, you graduated from Edinburgh University with a law degree in nineteen seventy two and you were apprenticed to a law firm in Glasgow. What was the ratio of men to women at the time in the firm?

Speaker 218:48

Then

Rita Rae18:49

I can't give an exact ratio, but I think there was a legal assistant who was female. I don't think there was any other f there might have been one other female apprentice.

Presenter18:59

You later joined the criminal law firm Ross Harper and Murphy. How did your clients react to being represented by a woman?

Rita Rae19:03

Mm-hmm.

Rita Rae19:07

Once they knew you knew what you were talking about, they were fine. It was the.

Rita Rae19:12

Fellow solicitors who were worse. When I became an advocate, I knew that there were solicitors that would not instruct me because I was female, unless it was a rape case.

Rita Rae19:24

Was it frustrating?

Rita Rae19:26

Yeah.

Presenter19:27

Uh

Rita Rae19:27

You could Yeah.

Presenter19:27

use that word?

Presenter19:30

The look on your face is the look of someone who repressed a lot of frustration at the time. So you became a partner at an incredibly young age, at just twenty seven. Did that help your standing with your peers among those lawyers who

Rita Rae19:39

One.

Presenter19:44

thought of you differently because

Rita Rae19:46

To some extent, yes, to some extent, when you you could prove that you you knew what you were doing.

Presenter19:46

Ticket gender.

Rita Rae19:52

But it didn't necessarily carry into on to the bar. There were many lawyers who would not instruct female advocates.

Presenter19:59

You

Rita Rae19:59

When

Presenter19:59

Just to judge by your gender back then though, Rita, religious tensions also divided people. And that pl actually played out in the workplace as well.

Rita Rae20:04

Yeah.

Rita Rae20:07

Yes, I I won't use the word that that that this lawyer used, but I remember they were making anti-Catholic jokes it was di at uh at dinner and I interrupted and said, Look, I I'm a Catholic and I said but my Catholicism comes from my Italian mother, my father was non-Catholic and one of them said, Oh, well, you're not a Fenian and then there was another expletive used. So that was okay. At which point I was with another couple of solicitors of my age and one of them grabbed hold of me by the shoulders and said, Right, look, Rita, let's move, because they knew what my temper was like.

Presenter20:42

Did you feel you had to keep quiet about it?

Rita Rae20:44

Yeah.

Rita Rae20:45

I've never hidden what I am or who I am, and if people don't like it, that's tough.

Presenter20:51

And your mother got to see so much of your success. I mean, she you as you mentioned after her accident, she wasn't expected to survive, but she lived a long life.

Rita Rae20:59

Knife

Presenter21:00

Did you talk to her about your work?

Rita Rae21:01

Oh yes. Oh yeah. She was the one I could talk to and used to sometimes come and

Rita Rae21:05

Sit in court. I remember when I was a temporary sheriff and she came into court'cause she used to come and listen.

Rita Rae21:11

The police officer was looking after her and I obviously when I walk in everyone's got to stand up and so she stood up and the police officer said to her, Pete, that's the first time you've had to stand up for your daughter, so

Presenter21:22

Rita, it's time for your fifth disc. What have you got for us?

Rita Rae21:26

I need something to make me laugh on a desert island and having gone to see a fascinating Aida who are just amazing. They are so funny, a bit rude sometimes. But the one cheap flights, which I I won't say which airline it's supposed to represent, is just hilarious. Is it cheap?

Presenter21:44

Is it you that you took your mum?

Rita Rae21:46

Save Four years.

Rita Rae21:47

She was a very holy lady, but she had a wicked sense of humour.

Speaker 221:51

Uh

Rita Rae21:51

Yeah.

Speaker 221:51

Uh He hid and died and died and died.

Rita Rae21:51

Well we clicked onto the website and were mightily surprised to find the actual cost wasn't quite as advertised. We'd forgotten airport taxes had also to be billed But a bargain is the bargain and Begara we were thrilled. Cheap flights, cheap flights standstead to trelle. That isn't every airline offers flights for 50p.

Speaker 222:15

Diddly eye and die and die and die. Diddly eyed and die and died and die. Diddly Iden died and died and died. After studying the website, we decided it was best to pay priority boarding so that we take three abreast. Three abreast, that's the best. And of course we'd all have luggage, so that's an extra cost. And then we paid insurance in case our cases might get lost. Oh, cheap flights, cheap flights, it's obvious to see. There must be extra charges when the flights are 50p.

Rita Rae22:17

Deadly is a

Rita Rae22:19

Diddly I can die and die and die

Presenter22:48

Cheap flights. Fascinating AIDA. Rita Ray, as your career took off, you took on some incredibly difficult cases, one of which was the Bothwell sewage murder. It was nineteen ninety two. What exactly was the case and who did you represent?

Rita Rae23:03

The case was about allegedly a planned shooting across a busy pub which no one saw and the body was then removed by I think men in Crombie coats and taken away to be disposed of. I think attempts were made to burn it and then it was put into the Bothwell sewage and of course not the whole body came back out so it was quite difficult.

Presenter23:28

What do you remember about your experience in the courtroom?

Rita Rae23:30

The courtroom was very, very tense because one of the accused had a tattoo of a cross on his forehead and was staring at me constantly. I wasn't appearing for him, I was appearing for uh the first accused who was uh acquitted on the basis that there was insufficient evidence. I don't know whether it was trying to intimidate or not, I have no idea, but I thought

Presenter23:51

Did you feel intimidated?

Rita Rae23:53

I felt uncomfortable. I just smiled at him because he constantly was staring at me. But when I smiled he turned away and that stopped it.

Presenter23:54

Yeah.

Presenter24:02

Do you ever meet people that you've you've sentenced later on? Do you ever see people in the street?

Rita Rae24:06

Not to have sentenced, but I have met someone who was in a case and was acquitted. I actually met him by accident coming out of court and he followed me and I thought and initially I didn't recognize him and

Presenter24:21

Can you t

Rita Rae24:22

Tell us anything about the case? It was a murder case and he he wasn't the only accused and he followed me out and he said you changed my life and he'd gone on to study at university and was in a in a profession and I I was so touched.

Presenter24:43

It's a difficult role, isn't it? Because you grew up with a very strong sense of justice, but the pursuit of justice in the legal system forces you to confront some of the worst things people can do to each other.

Rita Rae24:54

No, absolutely. But when it comes to being an advocate, I mean, if somebody said to me, and it's happened, or suggested to me it was my job to get them off, and I said, No, it's my job to present your defence if you have one. And it was another person when I said, How are you pleading? He said, Not guilty, and I said, Right, what's your defence? He said, What? I said, What's your defence? He said, What do you mean? I said, Well, you're pleading not guilty, and you need to tell me what your defence is. And he thought, Well, he said, I thought that was for you, and I said, If that's what you think, there's the door.

Rita Rae25:24

You know, we don't make up defences for people. We have a duty to present the defence, but we don't make it up.

Presenter25:26

Mm.

Presenter25:31

Reeter.

Rita Rae25:32

Tell us about your next piece of music.

Rita Rae25:34

This is the Bezes the Flower song, sung by Jose Carreras. Jose Carreras and his wonderful music means a lot to me. And I was involved in one of my very dear friends was dying of leukemia. After he died, his wife wanted to set up a group that we could raise some money for leukemia research. And we had the pleasure of doing the opening concert in the Usher Hall after all the refurbishment. And it was such a delight to have Jose Carreras and Lisa Milne come and sing that in memory of Hamish Sterling, who was a very dear friend.

Rita Rae26:18

Yeah.

Rita Rae26:19

Aveje d'Arma prison flatrice of Lord.

Rita Rae26:41

Karthusadusadu

Speaker 126:54

Pe pardon peasants. See you to message.

Rita Rae27:02

Pier Ferrampo Piero.

Rita Rae27:10

Poor side for the sake of

Presenter27:20

The flower song from Beze's Carmen performed by José Carreras with the orchestra of the Royal Opera House, conducted by Jacques Delacote.

Presenter27:30

Rita Ray, I wonder how you wrestled with your own feelings when you might have appeared for someone that you believed was guilty?

Rita Rae27:38

It's not for me to believe whether someone's guilty or not.

Rita Rae27:42

I will have the evidence. I will present it to the accused.

Rita Rae27:46

And if they're saying, well, I'm still

Rita Rae27:49

not guilty, I have a duty to defend and to present that case. But if an accused said, I'm guilty, but I want you to get me off, he would be told, I cannot defend you on that basis. So it's not a question of my

Rita Rae28:03

Deciding the evidence, that's not for the role of the advocate.

Presenter28:08

You became a temporary sheriff, a judge in the lower courts in nineteen eighty seven, and you had a reputation for giving out harsh sentences rather than lenient ones. Why did you personally feel longer prison terms?

Rita Rae28:20

I wouldn't say I gave out harsh sentences. I would just say that I gave out sentences which I thought were appropriate. And the other thing is, because I'm passionate about other disposals, especially with young people trying to keep them out of the criminal justice system. So I'm absolutely passionate about that. And it's not about giving them long sentences. It's about sometimes when people re-offend again and again and again, then there's not a lot you can do except that. I think sometimes when people commit very serious crimes, such as murder and other serious sexual crimes, then inevitably I think a lengthy prison sentence is not only just but necessary. I mean prison sentences shouldn't be used just because, you know, well, what else can we do? They should be used, especially if it's to protect the public and if they've committed serious offences. Goodbye.

Presenter29:13

How do we balance sentence severity with the necessity to rehabilitate people? Because the prison population is soaring and

Presenter29:22

And evidence suggests that long sentences don't necessarily help to rehabilitate people.

Presenter29:28

Yeah.

Rita Rae29:28

Well, you know, I think what people forget is that in sentencing there is an element of punishment. So you can't look at it only from one standpoint. You have to think about, yeah, rehabilitation, but you know, it's it's not just that.

Rita Rae29:42

That there has to be an element of punishment. But not always. It depends on the circumstances and the nature of the case. Do you know, the day that I get pleasure from sentencing someone is the day that I should never sit on the bench.

Presenter29:55

And what about the the day-to-day stories that you

Rita Rae29:58

You heard in course. I wonder what saddened you most? Children giving evidence about what's happened to them sometimes can be very, very difficult to listen to.

Rita Rae30:09

But you've got to remember in a trial situation.

Rita Rae30:12

You're hearing the evidence the same way the jury does and you should not be take any view of it and there is a presumption of innocence and that's absolutely important. But it you know you don't shut off your human emotion because sometimes it can be difficult to hear witnesses giving evidence about traumatic events in their lives.

Presenter30:31

Tell us about your next piece of music later.

Rita Rae30:32

Thank you.

Presenter30:33

Great.

Rita Rae30:33

Well, the next piece of music is the Ave Maria, not one of the more popular ones, but sung by Ignieze Galante. And it's a beautiful piece of music. I think it will remind me of my church and my faith, because I think I'm going to need a bit of reminding about that on a desert island.

Presenter31:56

Caccini's Ave Maria, performed by Inesse Galente.

Presenter32:01

Rita Ray, you retired as a judge in twenty twenty, but you're still very busy, Rita. You're rector of Glasgow University, you're chair of the new Scottish Catholic Safeguarding Standards Agency, and you still sit as a judge when you're needed, when you're called on.

Presenter32:15

What do you think your grandfather would have made of the career that you've

Rita Rae32:17

And

Presenter32:19

Yeah.

Rita Rae32:19

Built. Oh, I I would I would like to think he's he's um he would be proud and I like to think I think my mum would have been proud as well. She survived to see quite a lot of it, but not for me getting the full time job as a senator of the College of Justice. She didn't see that.

Rita Rae32:34

And that saddens me.

Presenter32:36

And I wonder after a difficult day in course hearing the kinds of stories that that we've talked about, how you would unwind, what comforted you, what restored your emotion?

Rita Rae32:45

Well the theatre is very important to me and music and concerts. I think one of the reasons I like the theatre is because very often the courtroom there's a bit of theatre in there. I don't mean to to minimise it or anything like that but I think that's that's what m made me enjoy the theatre so much. That the dynamics are are not dissimilar. Absolutely. We don't want any theatricals in court. But it is quite a dramatic place to be in. I'm about to send you off to the dead. Desert Island. I wonder what you're hoping

Presenter33:15

Uh

Rita Rae33:16

Yeah.

Presenter33:16

But

Rita Rae33:17

Do you imagine it?

Presenter33:17

Boom.

Rita Rae33:17

Well, I can't think of anything worse than having my own company.

Rita Rae33:22

You're not good in your own company. I'm not good in my own company. I'll enjoy the sun. I love the sun.

Presenter33:28

Okay, so we're hoping for a sunny desert island. I understand that cooking is a passion of yours.

Rita Rae33:33

Yeah.

Presenter33:33

Going back to your your mother's table and your Italian side of the family, what's your signature dish?

Rita Rae33:39

I've got a few, but I think everybody seems to like the especially the lasagna. It's I d I do it the Neapolitan way. The Neapolitans put in ricotta, not Bechamel, and it is very tasty.

Rita Rae33:51

Alright, well, one more track before we send you away. What's your final choice going to be? Well, the final choice is Climb Every Mountain from the Sound of Music. And it's a beautiful song. It just reminds me of just so many struggles and it just makes me feel keep going. Just keep going.

Speaker 234:13

Uh

Rita Rae34:13

I live every mountain. For drevist dream

Rita Rae34:22

Oh, everybody.

Presenter34:41

Just the ticket for the Desert Island motivational music, Climb Every Mountain, performed by Peggy Wood from the original soundtrack.

Speaker 134:43

The desert islands.

Presenter34:49

To the sound of music. So, Rita Ray, I'm going to send you away to the island. I will, of course, give you the books to take with you: the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and another book of your choice. What will that be?

Rita Rae35:00

Well, the book that I've chosen is a book called The Pursuit of Italy, and it's a history of its land, its regions, and their peoples, and it's by David Gilmour. And the reason I've chosen this is because I've got the book at home, but I've never had time to read it. So I might at least be forced to actually sit down for once and read a book.

Presenter35:22

Not the island son, dreaming of of being it in Italy with that extended family of yours.

Rita Rae35:22

The island Sun.

Rita Rae35:24

Live

Presenter35:28

It's yours. You can also have a luxury item. What would you like?

Rita Rae35:32

Well, most of my friends know that I'm fanatic about uh fast cars.

Presenter35:36

Petrol head.

Rita Rae35:37

I am, indeed, but I realized that you would not allow me to have a petrol car.

Rita Rae35:42

So what about a solar powered car?

Presenter35:44

Uh

Rita Rae35:44

Wow.

Presenter35:44

I mean, I guess I technically I could give you a petrol car, but it would run out pretty quickly. I think a solar-powered car is much more.

Rita Rae35:49

I think it's still in the power.

Rita Rae35:51

More sensible. Absolutely. Okay, so talk me through the spec. Well, anything fast. Mum and I used to drive to Italy every year together and I think we've done quite a lot of the Alpine passes over the top. Oh, there's many a hairpin bend. It's just fantastic. It's just fantastic. And that you really learn how to handle a car.

Presenter36:03

Many a hack.

Presenter36:12

Rated the twinkle in your eye.

Presenter36:14

Well, Rita, I think you'll be delighted to discover that there is in fact precedence for people taking motor cars of various kinds to the desert island, and I'm delighted to give you yours. Oh, thank you very much. And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you rush to save at the window?

Rita Rae36:30

I can't think that was really a difficult one, but the inspirational person in my life was my mum. So I think mum by many mean Julie.

Presenter36:42

The Honourable Lady Ray, Rita Ray, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Islands. Thank you very much.

Rita Rae36:48

Yeah.

Presenter37:00

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Rita, who's probably already zooming round the island at top speed in her solar powered car. Are you still a petrolhead if you drive a solar powered car?

Presenter37:11

There are many more pioneering castaways from the world of law in the Desert Island Discs archive, including Baroness Brenda Hale, Nazia Afzal, and Baroness Helena Kennedy. Search for Desert Island Discs on BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Emma Hart. The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky and the producers were Paula McGinley and Tim Bannow. The series editor is John Gowdy. Next time, my guest will be the playwright and screenwriter James Graham. Do join me then.

Speaker 137:45

Hello, I'm Brian Cox. I'm Robin Ince, and this is the Infinite Monkey Cage trailer for our brand new series. We've got mummies, we've got magic, we've got asteroids. Mummies, magic, and asteroids. What's the link? That it was an asteroid that magically went over the world that led to Imhotep the mummy coming back to life? That's correct. I thought it would be. We're as scientific as ever. But the most important thing to know is that we are going to deal with the biggest scientific questions. We finally ask: what is better? Cats or dogs? Listen first on BBC Sounds.