Shirley Ballas

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:44

My castaway this week is Shirley Ballas, the head judge on the BBC's Saturday night entertainment show Strictly Come Dancing. As a former champion dancer herself, she knows all about the hard graft it takes to make Ballroom look effortless. By 21, she'd won nearly every major title she competed in. Three years later, she ranked world number one. She remains the only woman in history to win the British Open to the World Professional Latin Championships with two different partners, and her dancing career lasted over two decades. She was born in Wallasey on the Wirral Peninsula and discovered Ballroom when she chanced upon a class at her local church hall at just seven years old. It was a cha-cha-cha that opened what she calls a magic door. Her mother, who was raising her alone, was the one who helped make the magic happen, working in a bar, waiting on tables and driving a forklift truck to help her daughter achieve her dreams. In 2017, she bagged one of the biggest jobs in British television and has been dispensing encouragement, constructive criticism and the occasional well-earned 10 ever since. She says, when I stepped out onto the dance floor aged seven, I knew I had found something that I uniquely loved to do, that I could completely lose myself in, that I wanted to do more than anything else in my life. Shirley Ballas, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Oh, I'm so delighted to be here. This is just such an honour and I'm so moved by listening to your beautiful words. Thank you for that. Well, it's your story and we're delighted to tell it and to talk to you about it today. As we're speaking, we're approaching the Strictly final and for the dancers, this is obviously an incredibly nerve-wracking time. How does the experience of having been judged as a pro yourself feed into how you approach your job on Strictly?

Shirley Ballas2:13

Um

Shirley Ballas2:16

He bite it.

Presenter2:30

Different lessons throughout my life have made me feel that when I'm adjudicating, I want to be fair.

Presenter2:36

without fear or favor, and I want to mark exactly what's in front of my eyes and appreciate the weeks' work that they have put into their work. I think that you can have constructive criticism at the same time you and be honest, but you can do it in a way where you're building people rather than destroying people.

Presenter2:54

So, Shirley, what's the first disc that you're taking to the island today? Well, I thought it would be quite nice to do Get Lucky by Daft Punk, which was my first samba on Strictly Come Dancing in 2017, and it will hold some of the most dear memories with the cast that I danced with. It was amazing. So, this was when you'd first joined the show, and the executive producer wanted to introduce you to the viewers, so she got you to perform a routine before you sat down behind the judge's desk. Now, it had been a while since you'd done anything like that. What do you remember about that night? I remember her saying to me, I think we're going to have to put you in a Latin dress, Shirley, and a pair of high heels, and you're going to have to get there and do the samba to get lucky. And I just looked at her and said, I haven't had a pair of shoes on since 1995, you know, so I don't even know if I can still balance in them. She said, You just got to trust me. So, I did. I walked around in the high heels, hardest thing I ever did in a beautiful red dress that Wardrobe had made for me. I was very, very nervous, and I remember perspiring, and it was running down my back, and my knees were shaking. But somehow, the minute the lights go on, lights, camera, action, music, and off I went.

Speaker 24:03

Phoenix

Speaker 24:07

All ends with beginnings.

Speaker 24:11

What keeps the planet spinning?

Shirley Ballas4:15

Wasn't the beginning.

Shirley Ballas4:19

No.

Shirley Ballas4:21

We come too far to give up

Speaker 24:26

Yeah. Who we are, so let's raise the bum.

Presenter4:34

Get Lucky Daft Punk featuring Pharrell Williams and Niall Rogers. Shirley Ballas, your mum, Audrey, sounds utterly tenacious. The two of you remain incredibly close. She lives with you today. What are the qualities that you most admire in her? Well, the qualities I learned as a young girl was nothing in life is for free and work ethic is key. So growing up watching her have all those jobs, she used to work at Cadbury's on the cakes, but she'd get a couple of pound more if she qualified as a forklift truck driver. Now she's five feet tall, barely weighs about seven stone. And I thought, she's never going to get that job. And boy, oh boy, she qualified for that job. I remember being a bunny girl. I remember making sales, babysitting, working in nightclubs. I mean, she did everything she could to give me an opportunity to be able to dance. And for that, I'll always be grateful.

Presenter5:22

So let's go back to the beginning then Shirley. You were born in Wallasey 1960. Now your dad Andy left the family, so that was you, your mum and your older brother David, when you were two. How much contact did you have with him after he left? Not a lot really. I think the most devastating thing as I've gotten older, you know, that I see is that we would get ready on a Sunday for him to pick us up and my mum had put us in, you know, your Sunday clothes as they were called back then. And he didn't turn up for one reason or another. And I'm not judging him, but it is the fact.

Shirley Ballas5:45

Hmm.

Shirley Ballas5:48

And I'm not judging him.

Presenter5:50

My mum didn't get any help at all, not for anything, whether it's school clothes, dancing clothes or a pair of Latin shoes. So I think from a very, very young age, I had an appreciation for the small things. Like when I got a pair of dance shoes, for example, I was holding onto those shoes. I mean, they were in my bag. I never lost a shoe. I never lost a little skirt or a top because I knew my mum worked so hard to get those things. And obviously, David was your big brother. Did he step in to kind of keep an eye on you, to look out for you a bit? Oh, he was a rock. And we lived on a housing estate that could be rough at times. He never let me hang around street corners because with my mum being at work and if I had a night off, I wanted to kind of hang. But I'd see him across the field and I'd spot him and I'd leg it home and he'd leg it after me. And he looked at me from the age of about 12 and 30 and he'd say to me, you are going to be a dancer and you're going to make us all proud. So as a kid, you and David both qualified for free school meals, not just in term time, but in the holidays as well, which must have been a relief for your mum. How did you feel about it?

Shirley Ballas6:28

But

Presenter6:53

I loved the school free dinners. I knew exactly where to queue up in the queue and it was normally towards the end and they were trying to get rid of the food so you got an extra roast potato, a little extra veg. But my brother was the opposite. He was embarrassed because as we come out the school gates the kids would be shouting, you're on welfare, you haven't got a dad. And then I would say, well, you've got a cheese butty and I've had a really nice roast dinner. So I was always the cup was half full for me. And I wonder about that sense of resilience. Where did that come from and you, do you think? I think it came from, again, my mother. And I think that each bullet that penetrated, I put up this really steel vest where the bullet couldn't penetrate. Hence, in 2017, when I got on the show, I was told you need to let those walls down so the general public can really see you for who you really are. And that was it took me a year or two.

Shirley Ballas7:38

And so the

Presenter7:43

You know, to take everything that the job came with. Well, I want to hear more about that, Shirley, after your second disc, if you wouldn't mind. Number two, what are we going to hear next? Ring of Fire by Johnny Cash. Now, when my mum was a young girl, this was her favourite song. And when she was working in nightclubs and it came on, she would actually stop serving the drinks and dance with her best friend Mavis. The two of them love this song.

Speaker 28:04

Uh

Shirley Ballas8:04

Uh

Speaker 28:05

I fell into a burning ring of fire I went down, down, down, and the flames went higher And it burns, burns, burns The ring of fire The ring of fire

Speaker 28:21

The taste

Shirley Ballas8:22

Our blovers read

Shirley Ballas8:27

When hearts like ours beat

Presenter8:31

Uh

Presenter8:34

Johnny Cash and Ring of Fire for your Mum Audrey, Shirley Ballas and of course Auntie Mavis.

Presenter8:40

So let's go back to the moment that you first discovered dance, Shirley. You saw a cha-cha-cha, but I think it was the music that led you there, right? Well, I was doing CPR in the Brownies. I was actually in another room in the church hall, and then I heard this music, which I later learned was wheels. So I made my way to the other room, and it was a big wooden door with a round piece of glass. I pulled myself up and looked into the glass, and I thought, oh, everybody's moving. Knocked on the door, and the gentleman came over and I said, What are these people doing? He said, This is the cha-cha-cha, dear. And he said, We've got children's classes starting Saturday. Why don't you come along? Oh, wow. So, wheels is that dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun.

Speaker 39:19

Da da da dun dun da dun.

Presenter9:20

So you were seven and it sounds like from that point on all you wanted to do was dance. Well I went home and I told my mother about my experience. She said well how much is it? I said it's 15p for the class. Well 15p back then was a lot of money and mum said well we'll start. We can do a few classes and see how you get on. And of course it went on and it went on and she could see that I absolutely loved it. It was twirling around in the kitchen knocking cupboards and dishes and cups onto the floor and breaking everything as you do when you dance in your tiny kitchen. And of course so much hard work. I think you've said about dance Shirley if it looks like you're working hard you're not working hard enough so how hard did you have to work? Well at the beginning it was just on a Saturday children's classes and then when I got my first boy partner it became Friday, Saturday and Sunday and then it was five nights a week. So what's the personal cost of that then?

Speaker 39:20

Yeah.

Shirley Ballas9:21

Uh

Presenter10:14

Well, of course, at that time I didn't realize. I mean, I never went out, never socialized, didn't stay at people's houses, didn't do anything like that. Once I was serious into dancing, my mind was set.

Shirley Ballas10:22

What

Shirley Ballas10:25

Ta-da.

Presenter10:25

I just had to do it. So talk me through the journey then as a young dancer. One of your first partners was a boy called David. You were going to dance with him in a studio on the other side of the Mersey. So how long did it take you to get there? You would have been about 12 at this point. He finished school about four o'clock and by five o'clock I needed to have my little suitcase with my makeup in. I needed to be at that bus stop on the Liso housing estate. And from there I would get the bus to Liso Station.

Shirley Ballas10:40

What's the point?

Presenter10:51

From Liso Station I get the train to Liverpool Central, get off there, and run across to the Ribble bus station back in the day, because they weren't close. Get on a Ribble bus all the way to the hour to Crosbie. It was actually quite easy when it was light, but coming home at eleven o'clock at night

Presenter11:08

Was very, very scary indeed. It was very, very difficult to travel alone. I was often trying to find somebody who would give me a lift or a ride to different competitions or a ride home, which stood me in good stead when I was older because I can get anywhere now on any kind of transport. At least you don't have to run anymore, Shirley. I don't have to run anymore. Not quite such a nervous experience. I think we'll have some more music now if you don't mind your third disc today. What are we going to hear next?

Speaker 311:27

Yeah, for sure. And

Shirley Ballas11:29

Quite such a nervous.

Presenter11:35

My next track is Moon River by Frank Sinatra, which was the first waltz that I ever did in the church hall, and also it was the dedication dance that they did for Len Goodman on Dancing with the Stars a few months ago. He was one of my teachers back in the day.

Presenter11:52

I knew him before my son was born, so what was so ironic he'd come round to dinner when Mark was just a little baby, two or three years of age, and then of course when Mark was twenty one he went on dancing with the stars, and Uncle Lenny was the judge.

Speaker 212:08

Yeah.

Speaker 312:11

Better than a mile.

Speaker 312:14

I'm crossing you

Speaker 312:17

In style

Speaker 312:19

So

Shirley Ballas12:20

Monday

Shirley Ballas12:24

Oh the dream

Shirley Ballas12:28

Make it

Shirley Ballas12:31

You are

Shirley Ballas12:33

Breaker

Shirley Ballas12:35

Where

Speaker 212:35

Yeah.

Presenter12:36

Frank Sinatra and Moon River. Shirley Ballas, when you were 14, you got a new dance partner, a boy called Nigel. He was the star pupil at another studio. The problem was he lived 80 miles away from you in Shipley, West Yorkshire. So you left home and moved in with his family. You and Nigel were able to practice all the time, but how did you find living away from home at such a young age? I would say living with another family is difficult because there was about five to six of us in the house.

Presenter13:05

And being away from my mother was also difficult, you know, so I had to call her every day to check in with her. We had a phone by then. And it was just very tough and very difficult, but I wanted to dance and I knew if I lived on the Liso housing estate, I wouldn't progress. So it was a sacrifice. By the time you were 16, you and Nigel were engaged and you'd moved to London, where you both got jobs. You were a secretary, but you always had your eye on the bigger picture. What happened next? One day my teacher, Nina Hunt, called me and said, Do you want to get married and be with Nigel? Or would you like the opportunity to dance with another man called Sammy Stotford, who's ranked seventh? In the world, as a professional Latin dancer. Now, I was an amateur, probably somewhere in the 96 of the Latin and the 24 of the ballroom. And I thought to myself, I said, Can I go home and talk to Nigel? She said, No, you've 10 minutes to make a decision. So I made a decision to at least have the tryout. And I told Nigel, he was doing the ironing, and he was mortified and beside himself. Anyway, it was that night that we split. What do you remember about the tryout? I was only in there about 10 minutes, and Sammy Stotford said to me, Well, I don't know who you are, never heard of you, Shirley Rich. He said, But you feel like a Rolls-Royce packy bag, you're coming with me. And that was it. I moved back to Manchester with Sammy Stott. It's a big design, isn't it? At 17. And there was only one ruler in our partnership, and that was Sammy.

Shirley Ballas13:49

Yeah.

Shirley Ballas14:18

Yeah.

Presenter14:25

So for many, many years I didn't have a voice. I didn't I didn't have a voice because I wouldn't have known what I was talking about, to be perfectly honest, to Sammy. So he picked the costumes, he picked the events, he was the one who picked all the teachers for the private lessons, and he was the one who moulded me to be the way he wanted me to be. And it it was Nina really who suggested back in the day that

Presenter14:45

You've got Sammy Stotford and Shirley Rich. It would sound better as Sammy and Shirley Stotford than non-stop Stopfords. And I said to her,

Presenter14:53

You really think that we should get married? And she said yes. And hence that's where it was born because Sammy and I, to be fair to Sammy and I, we never dated. Everything was always about dance, dance, dance, dance, dance. So thank you to Sammy for the start. But from there, I was able to run with my own career. Did you ever regret that you didn't marry for love? Well, at the time, I thought it was love, and I was so in love with dancing. But from 17, you start to grow up, don't you? We just went different ways, you know. I started to grow and learn about what I wanted to be as a female in my own skin, really.

Presenter15:27

Well I can't wait to hear about that Shirley but after your fourth disc if you wouldn't mind what's your fourth choice today and why are you taking it to the island? Sherry the Four Seasons was a Broadway show that my son got cast in in 2016 where Frankie Valley picked him to play Frankie Valley and this was the first song that Mark played to me on the guitar before he went on to Broadway.

Presenter15:49

And I think I saw the show over forty times and never got tired of that show and listening to Mark sing in those very, very high notes which he hit tremendously well.

Shirley Ballas16:06

Cherry Pay Russia!

Shirley Ballas16:16

Shit!

Shirley Ballas16:18

Can you promise?

Presenter16:32

Sherry, the four seasons for your son Mark Shirley Ballas. So listen Shirley, you and Sammy, the non-stop Stockfords, appropriately named because you went from strength to strength at great speed. In 1983 you won the British Open to the World Professional Latin Championships. You were ranked number one in the world the following year. How did getting the success that you'd always dreamed of feel? Well, you know, it was quite a journey to get there and at 22 holding that trophy in 1983 was just an ecstatic moment in my life. I thought this is what it's all about. But as I stood there with that trophy, I was empty.

Presenter17:10

There was something in my life that was missing, and I didn't know what it was. And back then, you know, you didn't have all the counseling or anything like that. So I found myself sort of spiring a little bit in my own mind, feeling down a lot. Started to complain a little bit more with Sammy, but didn't really know what I was complaining about. But there was something missing in my life, and I just had to figure out what it was. So there was a bit of a mismatch between what you'd imagined it would feel like and the reality. And I wonder if that thing that was missing was passion, because that arrived pretty quickly after that. It did. You know, like I say, I cared about Sammy a lot. We kind of grown up together to be these top professionals. But I think that I missed fun, going out, having a holiday, meals out, laughter, even though I had a solid partner, one that would never cheat on me, one that would.

Shirley Ballas17:27

Yeah.

Presenter17:59

Be there for me. He was that kind of character, but something in the passion department was definitely missing. And then, hence, I met Corky Ballas at a function in Canada. He's an amateur dancer from Texas at that point. And you left Sammy, moved to Houston to be with Corky. Part of the attraction to Corky was this very welcoming family that he had as well, who really took you under their wing. Well, a mum and a dad, and five siblings, and his father invented the weed eater-that's the strimmer that cuts the weeds from around the trees. They were an affluent family, really, really well off. And Corky had this charm, and it was difficult at first. He was a chef, he worked in his father's hotel. But I thought to myself, Sammy trained me, perhaps I could do it the same for Corky, exactly like we see on our Strictly Come Dancing. And that's what I did. I trained Corky from scratch, very difficult road. We started out rock bottom. People were laughing at me. You know, she's left our country, Great Britain. She's dancing with a boy that's got two left feet basically, and they were really mean to Corky. He taught me again to be more resilient and bulletproof.

Presenter19:04

And from there it went from strength to strength. We became 10 times United States Latin American champion. Of course, in the midst of all that, we had our baby son Mark. Yes, you were back to work competing just six weeks after having Mark. What did your dance teacher say to you when you went back? He said to me, you know, we don't want to see your stretch marks. I hate it that your skin is wobbling and you actually make people feel physically sick. You need to sort yourself out.

Shirley Ballas19:09

Hmm.

Presenter19:27

So then you go on these extreme diets. So I found that to be extremely difficult. And so you were on those extreme diets? I was a yo-yo dieter. But it was down when I look back now, it was down to the negative criticism our industry was built on. You had to be the right shape. I remember walking onto the floor with Corky once, hoping to make the United States final. I could hear these people sniggering behind me, saying, Look at the size of her bottom. It's twice the size of her partner. I'm just about to go on to fight for a place in the final. And I can hear these remarks behind me. What does that do to you psychologically?

Shirley Ballas19:33

I wanna

Presenter19:59

Well for me, I think I compartmentalised and it was only years later that I dealt with it after I finished competing through counselling. Corky could also be very strict. In fact, while you were pregnant, he took matters into his own hands. What did he actually do? I saw pregnancy at the time, young, 24, 25 years of age, as let me eat every food that I have secretly desired throughout my life. And one of those was Shipley's donuts, which you could buy in a box of 12 with a carton of milk. And I would just gorge. And then there was this particular day that Corky took all the chocolate icing off. And tree roaches back in Houston, they're everywhere. And he got this dead roach and he put it in my donut and put the chocolate icing on. Of course, when I picked it up to eat it, I had the legs kind of dangling from my mouth. And from that day to this, I've never eaten another donut.

Shirley Ballas20:39

It's

Presenter20:49

I mean, that's okay. I mean, to be fair to him, he said to me at the time: it's a joke.

Shirley Ballas20:50

I mean

Presenter20:54

And probably I had a good laugh, and it did do the trick. So, thank you, Corky, for keeping me on the control path. But looking back, Shirley, I mean, there are people who, you know, you use the word control, there are people who would say that's controlling in another way. I mean, how do you look back at it now? He knew that when I was overweight, how miserable I was, that I was getting this extra critique. So, I think when I look back on it now, I see a person that didn't know how to stop me eating all those donuts, and that was his way of stopping me so that I wouldn't be miserable further down the line.

Presenter21:25

It's time for disc number five. What's next? Smells like Teen Spirit by Nirvana. I didn't like the song at first, but Mark would often take me into his bedroom strumming on his guitar, you know, this is the way to go, Mum, listen to Nirvana. And then after several years of it, I thought, Oh my goodness, that's a great Pasadoble.

Presenter21:44

That is a great Pasadoble.

Speaker 221:44

That you see.

Speaker 221:47

Cut up on guns, bring your friends, fun to lose, and to pretend she's overborn.

Presenter21:56

Self-sure now the dirt

Presenter22:16

Nirvana and smells like teen spirit. Shirley Ballas, you moved back to London with Corky. In 1996 you became British champions for the second year running and after that you decided to retire at the top. Now you'd achieved everything you dreamed of in dance but some of the years that followed were extremely tough for you, especially in 2003. That year you experienced a devastating loss, the death of your brother David.

Presenter22:42

What happened? This particular day, Mark got a part to sing in one of the Westminster church and I called my mum. She was taking care of my brother because he was unwell. That was the extent of what I knew he was unwell. Looking back, he was depressed, brother. He was depressed. You know, he wasn't feeling like he could get up in the morning. We didn't know anything about mental health back then. And this particular day, I invited my mum and my brother to come down to London.

Shirley Ballas22:55

But he was

Presenter23:08

and my brother urged my mother to go.

Presenter23:11

Or perhaps she should never have gone. Well, in fact, she should never have gone. And I shouldn't have been the one that was pushing for them to go. And then it was that night that uh

Presenter23:19

He'd picked up his milk in the morning and stopped his refrigerator and then something went drastically wrong in that short period of time to where he took his own life in the home that we lived in. David didn't leave a letter, so you're all surmising. Did we see the signs and what were the signs? Now that I'm more into men's mental health and I work a lot for calm campaign against living miserably, I know the signs now, more or less. But back then...

Shirley Ballas23:36

Uh

Presenter23:43

I didn't really know too much about it. And I went through years and years and years of blame. And still to this day it'll be his anniversary on the fifth of December. That's why we've never really celebrated Christmas. You know, he was my cheerleader and I missed that. We spoke every day at four o'clock.

Shirley Ballas23:52

That's

Shirley Ballas23:56

Mm-hmm.

Presenter24:00

I always said, If anything happens to me, will you take care of my boy? And if anything happens to you, I'll take care of Mary, his daughter. And and I I I followed up on my end of the bargain. You did, I took in his little girl because she then lost her mother who found David. It was her mother who found David. She died of alcoholism, so Mary was left without a a mum and a dad.

Shirley Ballas24:08

You did.

Shirley Ballas24:12

Grandmother

Presenter24:18

I mean it must have been extraordinarily difficult for you Shirley because you know as you say subsequently you took in his daughter you're supporting your mum who's going through the most awful grief. How did you cope with your own grief and how do you cope with it? I mean as we're talking it's it's coming up to the 20th anniversary. I wonder sometimes if I have ever really dealt with the grief because I exactly what you just said, I have to be strong for Mary and she's done me proud. And then of course every day on a daily basis with my mother you know there's photographs of him we have his urn. We talk about him on a regular basis and I see her little face and I you know and I've got a son of my own and it's just difficult and it never goes away and I wonder sometimes if I've truly grieved.

Presenter25:04

Shirley, obviously, understandably Christmas has always been a very difficult time for you and for you and your mum for many years.

Presenter25:11

Because of David's anniversary, but I think that you have said working on Strictly has helped to shift things a little bit for you.

Presenter25:19

Because of this job, I did pantomime and I met Danny Taylor. And then he became my boyfriend in 2018. And I remember him coming round at Christmas and saying, oh, boy, you don't have a tree up. And then he went out and he bought us a little tree with lights. It was just a tiny little thing that we felt obliged, because we'd just met him, to put on the TV. And I think that was the start. And then from there, because of just such the Christmas spirit in Strictly, I think it's uplifting. And I think, you know, even this Christmas, I'm not going to lie, my mum was like, do we really need to put up Christmas trimmings? Every year she says that to me, do we really need to put them up? And I go, yes, we're going to put a tree up. We're going to have some lights. We're going to have some joy and we're going to have David. We'll do all our things and set the table for him as well. So you set a place for me. Which says place for David is very much part of the memory, but I don't think I can ever move on from that tragedy.

Shirley Ballas25:51

Yeah.

Shirley Ballas26:02

We said

Presenter26:08

Let's have some more music, Shirley Bala. See you next track.

Presenter26:12

Well this is probably going to be the hardest track and I think even now I'm going to get emotional even just saying it. It's You to Me Or Everything by The Real Thing and it was my brother's favourite song and he used to have me samba all around the living room while we'd have the song on and it was the last track that he cut for me on a C D before he died. And I'm going to have a moment while you play that.

Speaker 226:35

You should be all everything, the sweetest song I could sing more, baby.

Presenter26:42

Yeah.

Speaker 226:42

Oh, baby.

Speaker 226:44

To you I guess I'm just a clown who picks you up each time you've got all baby

Speaker 226:51

Oh, baby.

Speaker 226:54

Give me just a taste of love to build my own coupon

Speaker 226:59

You know you got the power girl to keep me holding on So now you

Presenter27:05

The real thing, and you to me are everything.

Presenter27:09

Shirley, your brother got to see you achieve so many of your dreams, but there was one in 2017 that you say has been particularly important in your career. Sadly, he didn't get to see you become head judge on strictly come dancing. I know that you've said that job saved you. Why? What was happening? I think at the time I was going through immense bullying in the industry from men at the top. I'll just go as far as that. And they were stopping my work. You know, I was like an elitist teacher. I was teaching the top couples in the world. And then there was threats going to certain couples saying, there's nine of us and one of her. If you train with her, we're going to make sure you don't make it in the industry, men and women. Stopping me judging in certain, I had a job once overseas for £100. And they had a phone call or a letter that said, if you employ her, we'll make sure that you lose your license. So there was an awful lot of things going on like that for no particular reason other than they didn't want a woman.

Presenter28:06

In any high places. And that's how I felt, and that's my perspective on it. So there was misogyny, was that? For sure, 100% for sure. And I don't think it's much better today.

Shirley Ballas28:07

And that's how I felt.

Shirley Ballas28:12

Yeah, for sure.

Presenter28:16

I still think that bullying goes on. There's a lot of great people in my industry. There's a lot of people who want to see people do extremely well. And I think we have this handful of, like you say, misogynistic people with egos that just

Presenter28:30

It just will not deflate. Even the other day, I was reading messages of a couple that had been to a competition overseas of different professionals that had written these most horrendous messages to them. It still goes on today. I don't know how people get away with it until it becomes name and shame. And I'm pretty much close to doing that, I'll tell you. So, are other people? I mean, were you able to talk to anyone about this? Is there a movement against it in the dance? Well, when I spoke, I did speak to some people, which I will remain nameless, and they would say to me, You know, Shirley, you're loved in the industry, you're a strong character, you'll be just fine. Nobody really took me serious, nobody really listened, and I was going to take up yoga. My mum had said, You know, work ethic, Shirley, you don't need boreham dancing. If they don't want you in the industry, you can take up another job.

Shirley Ballas28:44

Mm-hmm.

Shirley Ballas28:55

Well

Presenter29:16

Fortunate something aligned and I got to the job on Strictly. So thank you very much to all the bullies in my industry, and you know who you are, and everybody in my industry knows who they are. Thank you because you gave me a platform and a job that I sincerely love and adore.

Presenter29:33

It's time for disc number seven.

Presenter29:35

What are we going to hear? Disc number seven is highs and lows and it's written by the band Alexander Jean. Alexander Jean is my daughter-in-law BC Jean and my son Mark Ballas. I actually think the lyrics resonate with anybody who has a loved one. Boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, married. If you really listen to the lyrics, I think it will resonate with many, many women, maybe even gentlemen too.

Presenter30:03

Like it in the middle.

Presenter30:04

Mm-hmm.

Presenter30:05

I don't

Presenter30:06

If I go skinny dick

Presenter30:09

You won't, even when you blow the punchline to my joke.

Presenter30:14

Making me insane, babe.

Presenter30:18

I'm gonna love you.

Presenter30:22

Even when

Speaker 230:24

Me that I'm

Speaker 230:25

I love you from my heart

Presenter30:26

Right.

Presenter30:30

No missed no.

Presenter30:33

Alexander Jean and Highs and Lows Shirley, your mum's been with you every step of the way. I wonder what she thinks of your performances to day. She must be an avid Strictly viewer, I'm assuming.

Presenter30:45

Well, she sits there in her little armchair watching the show. And when I get home on a Saturday evening at 12 o'clock midnight, she sat there with her arms folded looking at me. Now, I thought so-and-so and so-and-so, and you marked so-and-so and so-and-so. Explain to me so I can understand. So, what I say to the listener is: when you're watching the program, you might see from the waist upwards or overhead shots. When I'm in the studio, I can see all the feet. You might not be privy to the feet. So, we are watching different things. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, you know, I've got the full view, the full view, and you get old sparkle and the beautiful bits. And I have to sometimes watch a heel lead that is unacceptable. But I have to get up and show my mother, well, I saw this and I saw that. And she goes, Well, okay, then. I guess you know best.

Shirley Ballas31:01

So I want to explain.

Speaker 231:19

Yeah, you know.

Shirley Ballas31:34

I guess you know best.

Presenter31:35

As long as it's firm but fair, that's fine.

Shirley Ballas31:36

On September.

Presenter31:38

Shirley, we've talked a lot about resilience today and you're definitely going to need that quality because you'll be on your desert island soon, living life as a castaway. I wonder how you'll adapt? I think I would be very good, actually.

Presenter31:50

I will have my memories and I can just cherish them and maybe that for me would just be enough.

Presenter31:57

Time for one more track before you go, Shirley Ballas. What's your last choice today? Last choice is We've Only Just Begun from The Carpenters, and it was a song I loved all my life. But when I gave birth to Mark in the hospital, it came on.

Presenter32:11

It was just like thirty minutes after he was born, and any time that he hears it in the supermarket at thirty seven years of age, he also starts crying. And he chose that song when he got married for the mother and son dance. We've only just begun will always be mine and my little boys song.

Shirley Ballas32:30

We've only just begun

Presenter32:39

White lace and promises

Presenter32:45

A kiss for luck and we're on our way We've only begun before the rise of the sun

Presenter32:58

The Carpenters. We've only just begun. So, Shirley Ballas, it's time I'm going to send you away to the Desert Island. I'm giving you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one other book of your choosing. What would you like?

Presenter33:11

I think I'd probably have to take Unleash the Power Within by Tony Robbins because it's a book that helps with resilience. You know, that double pat on the shoulder that you can do anything you set your mind to. You can also have a luxury item show. Well, if I was on this desert island, I had lots of sand. I don't really like the feeling of sand, so it would have to be a great big pair of knickers, cotton knickers, that go all the way up past my tummy button. So I didn't get any sand in areas that was rather irritating. Understood. Okay, so big girl pats. Yes, for sure.

Shirley Ballas33:24

Well

Shirley Ballas33:40

So big bill comes.

Presenter33:42

They're yours. And finally, Shirley, which track of the eight would you rush to save from the waves if you had to? I would rush to save from the waves highs and lows by Alexander Jean because my son has been there at the highest point in my life and he's been there in the lowest points of my life. And Shirley, he's now made you a grandma, which is fantastic. A glamma? A glammar, grandma, call me granny. I don't mind. Beautiful baby boy. Will you teach the baby to dance when he's old enough? I might sneak in a cha-cha-chaw lesson if I'm babysitting him when he's a little old.

Presenter34:17

Quite right, too. Shirley Ballas, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you very much.

Presenter34:46

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Shirley.

Presenter34:49

Those big girl knickers should do the trick. We've cast away many people from the dance world, including Shirley's friend and teacher Len Goodman, also former Strictly Judge Oti Mabusi, and the choreographers Akram Khan and Wayne McGregor. You can find their episodes in our Desert Island Discs programme archive and through BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Emma Hart, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, and the producer was Paula McGinley. The series editor is John Gowdy. Next time, my guest will be the actor and director, Greta Gerwig. I do hope you'll join us.

Shirley Ballas35:36

If anyone is an artist in their soul, it's Johnny Mitchell. There are some artists that change music forever.

Speaker 235:43

The mastery of the guitar, the mastery of voice, the mastery of language.

Presenter35:47

that shape the musical landscape for everyone who comes after.

Speaker 335:51

When the dust settles, Joni Mitchell may stand as the most important and influential female recording artist of the late 20th century.

Presenter35:58

Legend is a music biography podcast from BBC Radio 4 that explores the extraordinary lives of musical pioneers.

Shirley Ballas36:06

I think people would like me to just be introverted and bleed for them forever.

Presenter36:09

Legend, the Johnny Mitchell story, with me, Jessica Hoop. Listen now on BBC Sounds.