Simon Woolley

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:44

My castaway this week is Simon Woolley, Lord Woolley of Woodford. He's principal of Homerton College at Cambridge University, where he is the first black man to head an Oxbridge College. In 1996, he co-founded Operation Black Vote, which campaigns for greater inclusivity in politics. As its director for 25 years, he became known for an activism built on conversation rather than confrontation. He's worked with three Prime Ministers and helped set up the UK's first race disparity unit under Theresa May. He became a crossbench peer in 2019, shortly after being knighted for services to race equality.

Presenter1:22

All that pageantry and Ehrmine is a far cry from his early years. He was born to a young single mother and was fostered, then adopted by a white family and grew up on a Leicester Council estate. He credits the parents who raised him with instilling the self-belief and resourcefulness that have taken him so far. He says, I often tell people, it's not where you start, it's where you go, but even more importantly, how you go. Simon Woolley, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Simon Woolley1:50

Thank you very much. It's a great privilege and an honour.

Presenter1:53

Well, it's an honour to have you. Tell me a little bit more about that, Simon. What do you mean by how you go and why you feel it's so important?

Simon Woolley1:59

Character and how you manage yourself in life, in your workplace, in your personal space for me is very important. And I think that once you have your values, they help you then make the decisions. Almost the decisions are made for you because that's your well that you turn to when things get tough. It's been my North Star.

Presenter2:19

So that North Star, you've also got to know what you're trying to get to, what you're striving for.

Simon Woolley2:23

A fairer world, a more decent world, one in which individuals can have the opportunities to flourish.

Presenter2:30

When you look around your office at Hobarton College, do you take time to reflect on what you've achieved and the value of education? You must.

Simon Woolley2:37

I mean, I try not to I try to keep in the present and and not bask in this particular moment of success. It's okay, what are you going to do with it?

Presenter2:48

How did you familiarize yourself with the workings of the place when you first got the role?

Simon Woolley2:53

I spent each day with the different moving parts of the college. First up, the cleaners.

Presenter2:57

Ah, okay.

Simon Woolley2:59

got my overalls on and started scrubbing the floor and uh one of the cleaners said to me, I've been here for thirty years and none of the heads even know my name, much less have got on their hands and knees and scrubbed the floor with me and she started to cry. I mean for me it wasn't an extraordinary thing to do, it was just the right thing to do.

Simon Woolley3:18

So I chose to spend a day with the cooks.

Simon Woolley3:20

And all the gardeners, I thought to myself, I need to know how this place works. And for me, you know, to be fist bumping students or playing table tennis in their common room and they're saying, you know, our principal's the coolest in Cambridge. I'm not sure about that, but I can give them a good run for their money at table tennis.

Presenter3:39

Don't you know what we might be about to find out,'cause it's time to go to your music.

Simon Woolley3:42

Huh.

Presenter3:43

What's the first, and why have you chosen it?

Simon Woolley3:45

I want you back, the Jackson 5. Now, this throws me back to being a very young kid. And as a young black kid on a council estate back in the 60s, we needed heroes. We had Muhammad Ali, he was the loudmouthed, brilliant boxer. We had Pele, the greatest footballer on the planet. And we had the Jackson 5, particularly Michael Jackson. He could dance, he could sing, he had the best afro, and we wanted to be like him. This track for me sums up a quintessential, iconic Jackson 5.

Speaker 44:18

I had you to myself, I didn't want you around. Those pretty faces always make you stand out in the crowd. But someone kicked you from the bunch, one glass was all it took. Now it's much too late for me to take a second look.

Presenter4:49

Does you have the whole look going then?

Simon Woolley4:50

I did. Platform boots, flares. I didn't have a big afro. My brother, my brother Mick, he had a big afro and when we went to Wales they would think we were the Jackson 2.

Presenter5:02

I want you back. The Jackson Five. Simon Woolley were born in Leicester in nineteen sixty one. You spent your very early years in an orphanage. Can you tell me about the circumstances that led to you being there?

Simon Woolley5:14

It was an impossible position for my birth mum, who was forced to give me up in many ways. All I remember actually of that place is leaving it, being in a big car at the back seat and looking behind, leaving one place and going to another to start a new life with my mum and dad.

Presenter5:33

Phyllis and Dan. I want to ask about them, but tell me, you know, you mentioned your birth mother, Lolita, and you said you she had an impossible choice. She was forced to give you up in many ways. What happened?

Simon Woolley5:38

No.

Simon Woolley5:44

Yes, um she had an oldest uh child and then uh with another father and then she had me with my father and I think that her partner came back and didn't want me around. I think she was pregnant with her third child and so it was either be on her own with three kids or to be with uh a partner and and their two children.

Presenter6:06

And she was very young. She'd not long come over as part of the Windrush generation from Barbados. What was she doing here?

Simon Woolley6:10

Windrush

Simon Woolley6:11

From Barbados. What was she doing? Who was she from? From Barbados. Yes, I mean she spent most of her adult life caring for people. Caring for people and being a nurse. And she's a wonderful, wonderful woman. Most people are lucky if they have one mother. I had two, very special women.

Presenter6:27

So tell me a little bit more about your parents, Phyllis and Dan. Your first memories, as you say, start with them. How do you look back at those years?

Simon Woolley6:35

Oh my gosh. This family, particularly this woman, gave me everything.

Simon Woolley6:40

She fostered and adopted me and my brother Mick, but always looked after kids, so our house was full of kids.

Presenter6:45

And they had had, Phyllis and Dan had had their own biological children who were grown up by that point.

Simon Woolley6:48

Their own biological children were grown up by that point. And my mum gave me the belief, the belief that I could walk on water, I guess. I remember she once said to me.

Simon Woolley7:00

I don't worry about you. You're a good kid.

Simon Woolley7:03

And you're going to be fine.

Simon Woolley7:04

I'd been at Leicester football ground selling tickets, and I came back with lots of money.

Simon Woolley7:09

I came back with lots of money and I gave her some money to get her hair done.

Speaker 47:14

Yeah.

Simon Woolley7:14

And she she helped me.

Simon Woolley7:20

And said she'll be fine.

Simon Woolley7:22

I think she was right.

Presenter7:23

Powerful words Incredibly powerful message for a mother to give you.

Simon Woolley7:24

Uh

Simon Woolley7:27

I was so young and had that validation so early on.

Simon Woolley7:31

And sometimes you don't realize how much those little things stay with you.

Presenter7:36

What about your dad then, Dan? He was a foreman at Dunlop Tyres. What was your relationship like with him?

Simon Woolley7:39

Uh

Simon Woolley7:41

You know, back then, you never really chatted to your dad. You knew you were loved. It was a big man.

Simon Woolley7:47

And he'd come round the corner after work, and me and my brother would see him coming round the corner and...

Simon Woolley7:57

We would run up to him and he would uh he would go deep in his pocket, in his pocket.

Simon Woolley8:04

And give us a bar 6, a chocolate bar.

Simon Woolley8:06

And we would wait for this the chocolate bar to come out and then we'd walk with him t t to to home and a a very, very good and decent man, but not a big talker.

Speaker 48:09

Uh

Presenter8:17

No, so I think your parents adopted you officially when when you were in your teens. Did you call them mum and dad?

Simon Woolley8:23

You know, it's one of the biggest regrets of my life. They're white and you're black, and so you know that you're different. Me and my brother spoke about it years afterwards, that we both regret that we didn't call them mum and dad. They never demanded it, they never asked for it. Her name was Phyllis, but we called her Pippi. She was affectionately known as Pippi.

Presenter8:29

Mm.

Simon Woolley8:42

And I remember one of my uncles had a car and we used to go on these extraordinary trips down to Cornwall in a Hillman Minx. She would sit in the middle and my brother would be on one side of her and I would be on the other side. She had big arms and we'd sleep on her arms and that was our comfort blanket. Rest assured, she knew how much I loved her, that we loved her.

Presenter9:04

Let's have some more music. This is your second choice today, Simon Woolley. What are we going to hear?

Simon Woolley9:09

Well, my mum was born in the Rhonda Valley and of course the one of the world's heroes was Tom Jones. She would swear that she heard him sing on the valley tops or in in the local bars and stuff. And me and my brother would look at each other and say, Yeah

Speaker 49:22

Yeah.

Simon Woolley9:23

Uh

Speaker 49:23

Uh

Simon Woolley9:23

But this one was meant a particularly a special song for her and her roots, The Green, Green Grass of Home.

Speaker 49:31

Yes, say Lord, come to meet me arms reaching.

Speaker 49:39

Smiling sweetly

Speaker 49:42

It's good to touch the green, green grass of home

Speaker 49:52

The old house.

Speaker 49:54

It's still standing.

Speaker 49:57

Your paint is cracked and dry.

Presenter10:01

Tom Jones and Green Green Grass of Home, and that Simon Woolley was for your mum Pippi. Now, we talked about the idea of you kind of living out your values earlier, remembering your values as you went along the way, and she taught you and your brother to see the good in people and to embrace different views. How did she do that?

Simon Woolley10:17

Plant.

Simon Woolley10:20

When I saw her interact both with the kids that she looked after, me and my brother, but also the parents, often they couldn't pay.

Simon Woolley10:29

And she's got a lot of money.

Presenter10:29

So for the child-mindedly.

Simon Woolley10:30

For the childbinder, and she'd say, Don't worry, don't worry, settle up when you can. One mother used to make clothes for us. She couldn't pay, so she made clothes for me and my brother. Crimpoline suits me and my brother. Crimpoline. Crimpoline suits. That is a bold look. It's a bold look. It wasn't a great look, I'm not going to lie. But that was the sort of thing that she would do.

Presenter10:43

That is a bold look.

Presenter10:50

Interracial adoption has obviously been the subject of a lot of discussion in recent years. What do you think about it from a personal perspective?

Simon Woolley10:53

Do not

Simon Woolley10:57

Yeah.

Simon Woolley10:58

When love conquers, love conquered.

Simon Woolley11:01

But it wasn't without its challenges. I mean, that she didn't know how to do our hair. My brother had Afro-Hair, I had Afro-Air, and she didn't know. But one of her friends, Mary, Mary Conroy, had some black friends, and they said you need to go to Highfields. So me and my brother would go there on a Sunday, Sunday morning, and we'd go to this barber who became famous because he cut everybody's hair in Leicester. And we'd go there at 10 o'clock in his flat and sit on his bed and we'd have to wait till all the men got their hair cut, which was about five o'clock.

Presenter11:32

So you were there for the day.

Simon Woolley11:33

We were there for the day. My brother would sit there and we'd speak when we're spoken to. But it's there in the barbershop where I first was confronted with black politics. And I do remember these men saying that, you know, they're Jamaican or Bayesian and they say the white man owns our country. And even when we've got businesses, that it's on their terms. And I just listened to it and drink it in and I never knew how much it absorbed.

Presenter11:57

Hmm.

Simon Woolley11:57

until I was much older.

Presenter11:59

We've got to go to the music, Sam and Woolly. Disc number three, what are we going to hear and why are you taking this to the island?

Simon Woolley12:05

I got into jazz very early on, particularly when I came to London.

Simon Woolley12:09

And I'd get these records that clearly were from another generation, but I felt an affinity to them, to the music, to the history, and the artistry. That's why I've chosen Manhattan by Ella Fitzgerald.

Speaker 412:22

We'll have Manhattan, the Bronx and Staten Island too. It's lovely going through.

Speaker 412:34

The zoo It's very fancy On old Delancey Street, you know The subway charms a soul When balmy breezes blow

Presenter12:54

Ella Fitzgerald and Manhattan. Simon Woolley, education reform's a big focus for you currently. How do you look back on your own school experience?

Simon Woolley13:00

Kind.

Simon Woolley13:03

I survived. Okay, that's not a ringing endorsement. It's not a ringing endorsement. I was smart as a young kid.

Presenter13:05

Okay.

Simon Woolley13:09

I mean they were good teachers, but you know I was into lots of sport, captain of all the football team, basketball team, running team.

Simon Woolley13:17

But I do remember once that I went to the music teacher and said to him, Could I learn how to play the piano? and he looked at me and he said, Why do you want to learn to play the piano? You're a footballer, you're a basketballer, and just talk me out of it.

Simon Woolley13:30

So there was no ambition beyond the stereotype.

Presenter13:34

So your assessment is he was looking at you and saying, well, this is a black kid who's going to that. You're a sport. You're a sporter.

Simon Woolley13:39

Not a musician and you know nobody said I could be a scholar. So you never ran with it. Your ambition was when you left school to get a job.

Presenter13:49

Tell me a little bit more about developing your own sense of identity because you're growing up with white parents in a predominantly white area. How did that play out at school?

Simon Woolley13:58

There are big key moments.

Simon Woolley14:01

that halt you. I mean one was we were in the playground and the skinheads come by and they say that send the wogs to Vietnam and they were chanting and then I'd go back to my mum and I'd say why do they want to send us to Vietnam? Why do they want to send me to Vietnam?

Simon Woolley14:16

And she would hold me and she'd cry. And I you know, I realized afterwards Vietnam was a place that was at war. But me and my group on the estate, we were smarter than the average kids and we were we were good runners and good fighters and so we could hold our own.

Presenter14:31

And as we heard earlier, you sold tickets at Leicester City Football Ground to make some money. You say you were a bit of a hustler as a kid. How did it work?

Simon Woolley14:39

We would get the players, the junior players who got complimentary tickets. They'd be like 13, 14 and I'm 11 or 12 and they'd call me the big man, the big man. And I'd line them up, me and my friends, and we'd get 50 pence for the ticket and then we'd resell them for a fiver. And we'd be counting our money, we'd get a pie, we'd get a drink, counting the money, watch the first half of the game and then leave and go buy some clothes, look good, have money in our pocket. We absolutely knew that money gave you dignity.

Presenter15:09

Simon, when you're about sixteen, your birth mother, Lolita, got in touch and you met her. What happened?

Simon Woolley15:15

I was very, very curious uh to meet my family.

Simon Woolley15:19

And she hugged me. You know, this is a moment where you're reunited with your son.

Simon Woolley15:24

I felt love, but I wasn't a deep love, because it was my birth mother, but I d she was a stranger.

Presenter15:30

Were you able to start to get to know her, to make a relationship, or was it just too much?

Simon Woolley15:34

It was too much.

Simon Woolley15:36

The Betrayal

Simon Woolley15:37

that I felt from my mother who had nurtured and cherished me as her own son and then a little while after that Pibby passed away. So the betrayal was even intense. So I never I wasn't reunited with my birth mother for another 20 years and I did feel like I'd betrayed my mum.

Presenter15:47

Oh.

Presenter15:59

So you never you never got to talk to her about it either.

Simon Woolley15:59

So you never

Simon Woolley16:02

Not peppino.

Simon Woolley16:03

No, but she knows how her son always thinks about her.

Presenter16:09

She must have been so proud of you.

Presenter16:12

Listen, let's go to the music, Sam, and let's take a minute for some music.

Simon Woolley16:13

Let's take a look at the

Simon Woolley16:15

Yo

Presenter16:15

Your fourth choice today.

Simon Woolley16:17

So for my next track, it's Titanium by David Getter. Now anyone that trains out there, whether they're on the bike or in the gym, need to listen to Titanium because you go faster, you go harder. But even more than that, the lyrics of this track, you knock me down but I get up, knock me down but I won't fall. I am titanium. I think that's my experience. I think it's the black experience in some ways. That resilience to keep getting back up.

Speaker 416:46

Nothing to lose Far away, far away Break the shade

Speaker 416:54

Keep that correct

Speaker 416:58

Far away the summer dark

Presenter17:16

Titanium, the Morton Future Rave Mix. David Guesser featuring Sia.

Presenter17:21

Simon Woolley. By the time you were in your twenties you'd moved to London and you were selling advertising slots for rank films. That job took you to Oxford and Cambridge, and it was there that the university students inspired you to make a big decision. What was the trigger?

Simon Woolley17:35

You know, I saw these uh clever young people on their bikes with their cloaks, and I thought I want some of that and in some way I felt inferior to them.

Simon Woolley17:44

They'd read the books and if you read the books you were a better human being, you were a better person, you knew more. And so I remember walking into my boss's office in Wardore Street and I said to my boss, look, I can do this standing on my head. I want to do it three days a week and I want to go back to education. I need it. And he said, you're crazy. You're a high flyer. You go in places. I said, if you want this flight of fantasy, then you have to leave the job. And I got my company car keys out and threw him the keys and walked away from a well-paid job. And then I went to Epping College, it was near to me, and knocked on the door and said, can I take an O-level or an A-level, please? I want to be like them wearing those gowns. I want to read books. And they said, well, actually, we've got something that may be right up your alley. And it's called an access course. It was this course that gave mature students access to education. One year, and then you could go to university. And I loved it. I loved reading Paradise Lost and trying to get my head around all the complexities. Because it wasn't about getting a degree. It wasn't about getting a job. It was purely for the sake of learning.

Presenter18:56

But you did go on to get a degree in English and Spanish and as part of that course you travelled to Latin America. I know that you've said that time was an eye-opener for you.

Simon Woolley19:05

Boom.

Presenter19:05

In what way what happened?

Simon Woolley19:07

My neighbours were Colombian from Cali, Colombia, and they said to me, listen, Simon, you have to go to Cali, Colombia. But they didn't say that it was the drug capital of the world next to Medellin. But in Latin America, I saw politics roar. People prepared to fight for what they believed in. And when I came back after the year abroad, I said, nothing's going to stop me now from wanting to change my world. I'm not going to get shot. I'm not going to get kidnapped. What's my excuse not to change my world?

Simon Woolley19:41

And I lived in a house. They're all women because the men were doing their thing. And she had three daughters. And you heard salsa everywhere. There's this juxtaposition between this is a very dangerous country and there's this love of life through salsa. So one of the daughters is teaching me to dance salsa.

Simon Woolley20:01

And all of a sudden she said, Simon por favor, apreta me, aprete me, which was which was hold me tight, for heaven's sake, stop dancing like an Englishman and hold me like a Colombian.

Presenter20:05

Twist

Presenter20:07

Me tight.

Presenter20:12

I think we better have some music, don't you? What are we gonna hear next?

Simon Woolley20:15

Well this is this actually symbolizes that moment in Cali, Colombia, where the ecosystem of daily life was life and death. The life was through the music and it's such joyous music that you cannot but dance. And the track is Hagamos lo que digal el colosón by Grupo Niche.

Speaker 420:48

Men of Colvilla, came from Corsa Nara.

Speaker 420:53

Let it go

Speaker 420:56

Lama Holmes, love and be that for us

Presenter21:05

Agamos loque diga el corazon. Follow your heart. Grupo Nietze. Simon Woolley, in nineteen ninety six you co founded Operation Black Vote. What was the impetus in setting the organization up?

Simon Woolley21:19

The setting-up of the organization came out of the death of a black man in police custody, Wayne Douglas.

Simon Woolley21:26

And after the protest in Brixton, a lot of activists said, we need power. We need our own voice. And of course, we'd felt powerless for a long time. Things were done to us. And then there was a Eureka moment. I called all the activists into the room. And I said, I've got it. I've got it.

Simon Woolley21:44

You'll look at the data and far from being powerless, if we register to vote and vote, particularly in the areas where we have huge numbers, we can decide who wins any general election. Elections are a numbers game and we've got the numbers.

Presenter21:59

And it was very important to you right from the beginning that it was non-partisan and obviously not-for-profit too.

Simon Woolley22:00

And it was

Simon Woolley22:05

Right, I mean that was the genus in that we didn't really know but we instinctively knew.

Simon Woolley22:09

to get all the political parties vying for the when we say black vote we mean non-white vote, African, Asian, Caribbean and other ethnic minorities. So what we're able to do is to get the political parties vying for the black vote as never before.

Presenter22:22

And I can see you coming alive when you're slipping into it. It must have been fun.

Simon Woolley22:24

When you're

Simon Woolley22:26

Because imagine for a second a kid from a council estate that goes to see Ian Duncan Smith in their big offices. And frankly, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm blagging.

Simon Woolley22:37

But I you know, I'm confident about

Simon Woolley22:39

Hold your own. Stand your ground. You're talking about what you know, and that is tackling, laying bare race inequality, structural racism, and saying that there's votes in it if you lean into this.

Presenter22:53

Simon, during the Brexit referendum, Operation Black Vote was criticised for a Saaji and Saatchi poster campaign that showed an elderly Asian woman and on one side of a seesaw and then an aggressive looking skinhead.

Speaker 423:02

Uh

Presenter23:06

Yelling at the other. The strapline was a vote as a vote. And at the time, that caused consternation. It was accused of trying to divide society and imply that.

Speaker 123:09

Right.

Speaker 123:13

Uh

Simon Woolley23:13

Remplied.

Presenter23:14

People who voted for Brexit were xenophobic. How do you look back on that type of campaigning, that negative campaigning today?

Simon Woolley23:20

Well, it was a toxic time and there was a strand of Brexit that was deeply xenophobic. And we tried to call it out and say, not all voters for Brexit are racist. But of course, once you lose the narrative, now you're the racist. Explain, then you're not on the front foot, you're on the back foot. I had the pack dogs, the media outside my house, shock jock presenters screaming at me, now you're the racist.

Presenter23:46

Would you have done anything differently?

Simon Woolley23:47

I don't know. I think that you have to be true to yourself. You have to be brave. And sometimes things land well and sometimes they don't.

Presenter23:56

Let's take a moment for some more music. This is your sixth choice, Simon.

Simon Woolley24:01

Well, having got the job at Homerton, it's the first time in my life that I had a regular salary. So, I thought I'd treat myself to some very special speakers. I went out and bought these speakers. But the music that I was using was by this guy called Alexis French. Sometime later, he contacts me about my work at Homerton. He said, I'm a big fan. I said, You're a big fan of me. I'm a super fan of you. In fact, I bought my speakers based on your music. Fast-forward six months, he invites me to the Barbican.

Simon Woolley24:32

And then he he starts a a short uh monologue by saying, The last time I heard this track was at my friend's house. And Simon, if you are here, this is for you. Dreamland.

Presenter25:44

Dreamland, composed and performed by Alexis French with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by James Morgan.

Presenter25:52

You became a crossbench peer in twenty nineteen, Simon, so you're now part of the establishment, part of that hierarchy that you've continually challenged throughout your career. I mean, how do you feel about the the conflict there, the tension?

Simon Woolley26:05

There is a tension because the power

Simon Woolley26:08

that has dominated and often not been fair. I'm now a part of. I'm a legislator. I sit in one of the oldest universities in the world that has spawned lots of people that have kept the system as it is and I'm part of both.

Simon Woolley26:24

But I just focus on the present about what is your role, what is your purpose.

Presenter26:28

What do you say to yourself?

Simon Woolley26:29

To make it fairer, to make it more inclusive.

Simon Woolley26:32

You know, sometimes I stand in that chamber and it is a gilded chamber.

Simon Woolley26:36

It's just

Simon Woolley26:37

Jaw dropping.

Simon Woolley26:39

And I try not to let it overwhelm me. You're here to speak truth to power. You're here to speak for those that can't be here. I have that great sense of duty when I speak.

Presenter26:51

Have you found acceptance in in the House of Lords? Especially as a person of colour, you know, you talk about being in spaces that have historically not been open to black people.

Simon Woolley26:56

Are you talking about

Simon Woolley26:57

You also

Simon Woolley27:01

Overwhelmingly yes. But there was a reminder that people like me are not often seen there. And I'd sit in our beautiful library, it's only for peers, and I'd be at my desk when I first started, and I'd get a tap on the shoulder by a fellow peer who'd say, Excuse me, can you help me with the photocopying?

Presenter27:20

So they were assuming you'd work back but you said I'd get, so that happened more than once.

Simon Woolley27:25

Oh yes, yes. It happened three times. Yeah, and so the first time, you know what I did? I did it. Because rather than a confrontation.

Simon Woolley27:33

I just did it.

Simon Woolley27:34

The second time I showed my badge, we have a badge at the Lord's end, so the colour coding, the hierarchy, and so I showed my badge and the pier said, oh, oh, yes, yes, yes, thank you, sorry, sorry. And then the third time that it happened, I showed my badge, pushed it in his face and said, I'm one of you.

Simon Woolley27:52

Get some help over there. They're brilliant stuff here.

Presenter27:56

What goes through your mind when you're having to deal with an incident like that?

Simon Woolley28:00

To take them on a journey too.

Simon Woolley28:02

and to see that there's people like me that can enhance our democracy and have something to give.

Presenter28:09

It's time to make some space for the music. Disc number seven. What are we going to hear, Simon?

Simon Woolley28:11

Dis

Simon Woolley28:14

This comes from a parent perspective. Part of our job is to give them values, to give them good manners.

Simon Woolley28:21

and resilience, and for them to like our music.

Simon Woolley28:25

That's the most challenging part of the puzzle. That's the most challenging part. And so, you know, I'd introduce my son to Marvin Gaye, Ella Fitzgerald, some blues, you know, old school. And in fact, my son would say to me, Daddy, we've got old people's music again, old man's music, he would say. And then go on.

Presenter28:40

Yeah.

Simon Woolley28:43

And oh, and then go on to play some hip-hop. And then he got into anime, the Japanese cartoons, and they would have this eclectic fantasy stories with equally eclectic music. And then all of a sudden, my son would say, Dad, Dad, come and listen to this music. It's so lick, which translates to being pretty good. And I thought to myself, Yes, yes, my son has got some pretty cool music tastes. So, my next track, inspired by my son, Luca Santiago, is Cowboy Beep Tank by Nyari.

Presenter29:45

Cowboy Bebop Tank by Naari from the Cowboy Bebop anime television series.

Presenter29:50

Simon Woolley, as we've heard, you have a 17-year-old son, Luca. What are your hopes for his future?

Simon Woolley29:57

Coming from a council estate, you instinctively know how to fight, because you have to.

Simon Woolley30:02

And yet, of course, as parents, you want to wrap cotton wool around your kids and for them not to have to fight.

Presenter30:10

It's another one of the contradictions of success, I think.

Simon Woolley30:12

It is, but then you want them to have it. I want him to have the hustle. I'm really thankful that he does have a bit of the hustler spirit. But above all, I want him to be happy and I want him to... I don't want him to struggle and to confront racism as I had to. Although, I have to say, when he was online, on them online games and playing with his friends when he was, I don't know, 12, 13, 14, and he said to me, Dad, this person's called me an N-word. And I thought, damn, I thought we were done with that. But no. But he's a good kid. I mean, I just love him so much. I can't even tell you. And he's got that bit of steel, but he's got a decent heart too.

Presenter30:49

You said at the beginning of our conversation, Simon, that most kids are lucky if they have one mother that loved them and you've had two. Pippi died several years ago, but I know that you're in contact with Lolita. What made you get back in touch and what's your relationship like today?

Simon Woolley31:03

Yes, well having my son, I felt that I owed it to her to know her extended family. And she adores this kid. I mean completely adores him. I mean he loves her too and that has brought us together in a wonderful way. And we've talked and you know she would often say that, do you forgive me? And I said there's nothing for me to forgive. You had an impossible decision to make. It turned out okay. We're back together. My son loves you. It's still not completely 100%, you know, with a broader family, but it's in a very good place.

Presenter31:42

So, Sam and Woolley, I'm going to send you away to the island. What do you think the first thing is you'll do when you are cast away, when you're dropped off?

Simon Woolley31:50

I'll look and scan and I'll think to myself, okay, what can I do here? Because doing is my thing. And seeing what I can put right, because that's also in my DNA. There'll be a time for chilling. Trying to get the balance right, I think, would be one of my goals.

Presenter32:07

One more disc before we cast you away, though, Simon, your final choice to day.

Simon Woolley32:11

What are we gonna hear?

Simon Woolley32:13

This track symbolises who I am right now.

Simon Woolley32:17

My life is full of joy.

Simon Woolley32:19

I love my work. As you've heard, I love my son. I have wonderful friends. I have loving relationships right now. And this symbolises it. The essence of love in your life is everything. For Once in My Life by the great Stephen Wonder.

Speaker 432:36

For once unafraid I can go where life is me Somehow I'll be storm

Speaker 432:45

For once I can test what my heart used to dream of long before I do.

Speaker 432:54

There's someone won by two.

Speaker 432:59

Make my dream come true. Yeah, yeah, my life out of the song.

Presenter33:06

For once in my life, Stevie Wonder. So, Simon Woolley, I'm going to send you away to the island. I'm giving you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take one other book. What will it be?

Simon Woolley33:18

That will be Eduardo Galeano Football, Sun and Shadow. It talks about the beautiful game.

Simon Woolley33:25

with a backdrop of politics.

Presenter33:28

It's yours. You can also have a luxury item. What would you like?

Simon Woolley33:30

Well, my luxury item will be, if I can, take a razor blade. And whilst I'm shaving, I'm full of hope. I'm full of what am I going to do today? Whose life am I going to change? How can I make a difference? And so that simple ritual of thinking about hope and the promise of a new day.

Simon Woolley33:50

that I want with me for the simple item of a razor blade.

Presenter33:55

Symbolism, ritual. There's nothing practical about that. I can absolutely get behind it. It is yours, it will always stay sharp.

Simon Woolley34:02

I love that.

Presenter34:03

And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves if you had?

Simon Woolley34:08

My gosh, it's a no-brainer. It has to be Stevie Wonder for once in my life. This is the track full of joy and full of love.

Presenter34:16

Simon Woolley, Lord Woolley of Woodford, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Simon Woolley34:22

Thank you, and thank you for this memorable time of sharing with you and the audience. It's been very special.

Presenter34:42

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Simon. And although he'll be alone on the island, I know he'll take solace in his morning shaving ritual. We've cast away many crossbench peers, including Dame Louise Casey, Baroness Heather Hallett, and Professor Peter Hennessy. You can find these episodes in our Desert Island Discs programme archive and through BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the Formula One executive Toto Wolf. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 135:28

You know the problem with technology, right? We've made it too complicated. I mean, it's filled with jargon and buzzwords, and really, it doesn't need to be. So, I am gonna fix it. Understand Tech and AI is a new series from BBC Radio 4 with me, Spencer Kelly. I've got together some great guests to help me explain everything from getting online to avoiding the artificial intelligence apocalypse. So, I'll see you there. Subscribe to Understand on BBC Sounds.