Tuning in…
Tuning in…
Desert Island Discs
Presented by Lauren Laverne
Author and activist in the sustainable food movement, known for the maxim 'eat food, not too much, mostly plants.'
Eight records
This is the Banana Boat song, which is a work song, traditional work song. And my parents were a huge Harry Belafonte fan... I just remember as a little kid dancing in the den as they would put on this LP.
In middle school, I had a couple teachers who were just brilliant English teachers. And in this class with Mrs. Zaslow, she played us The Sound of Silence. And we read it as a poem. And it was my first kind of recognition that music and literature had this close connection and that you could find poetry in places other than books.
Around the time I was 13, after the Summer of Love, which was 1967, the kind of urban hippie experience turned sour in many ways. And there were a lot of drugs and overdoses and crime. And so a lot of people moved to the country and moved on to communes. And this is kind of an anthem of that movement, which I was, even though I wasn't ready to move to the country, I was very intrigued by the dream.
Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong
We're going to hear the song played at our wedding. And this was the first song. This is our first dance. We love the album by Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald. So it was obvious to us that Cheek to Cheek would be the first song.
Jerry Garcia and David Grisman
I want to play Shady Grove by Jerry Garcia and David Grisman. While I was working on these pieces, Isaac was born. And, you know, when you have a little kid, music becomes an issue in the car. Are you going to be able to listen to your music or are you going to have to listen to their music? And Jerry Garcia, of course, from The Grateful Dead, and I was a big deadhead. And Dave Grisman did this wonderful collaboration album that Isaac loved. So this was our common denominator. And I can't hear this song without thinking of car trips with Isaac in the back seat.
Well, I thought I would play one of my favorite artists, which is Joni Mitchell, and a song that means a lot to me, and it did way back when when I first heard it in college, and that's California. You know, we moved to California. This was a big change in our lives when Isaac was 11, and we were going out just to try it. We'd never lived on the West Coast. And I've just kind of rediscovered Joni Mitchell more recently, and I listened to her a lot. But this one is just so up, and I can see California sunshine when I hear this song.
Well, it's a Beatles song, Tomorrow Never Knows, the one that is sometimes cited by psychedelic researchers in preparing people for their experiences. The Beatles were huge for me. I actually had a Nehru jacket at the time that Sgt. Pepper came out. That was the fashion. They had started that fashion because of the cover image on Sgt Pepper. And my mother for Hanukkah got me a Nehru jacket that I was so proud of. And this very mysterious song, it would take me years to understand it.
Cello Suite No. 2 in D minor, BWV 1008Favourite
Bach's cello suite in D minor, number two in D minor, played by Yo-Yo Ma. I listened to this piece while I was dissolved, while I didn't have a self. When your ego dissolves, there's no wall between you and the world. You merge with whatever is around you. And at various moments, I felt like I could feel Yo-Yo Ma's bow, you know, the horsehair bow, going across my body, or I was inside that vault of space inside the cello. And it was just this experience of complete oneness with a piece of music. And it was the most profound listening experience I had had before because I became music. And I know how crazy that sounds. I played this for my dad when he was dying. We sat with him for those last couple days. And the communication that took place was through music. And I knew he loved Yo-Yo Ma and cello music. So this brings me back to that room, you know, in January of 2018. It's a very profound piece.
The keepsakes
In conversation
Presenter asks
Why do you put yourself through these [immersive writing] challenges?
People like to learn with you rather than be lectured at. And I also find that there's a quality of wonder that you get when you do something for the first time that you're never going to have again. And so it gives you an opportunity to see something even more clearly than people who are expert at it and do it all the time and that you could interview about it. And that might involve building a cottage, buying a cow and following it through the meat system. It would give me a point of view I couldn't get any other way.
Presenter asks
Is [your mother's permissiveness] a gift to you, do you think?
It was a huge gift. Your parents believing in you is so important to taking chances and risks and failure. And my father, too, who was a lawyer who hated the law, just put no kind of career pressure on me to do this thing or that because he felt he had chosen badly in some ways. Partly because of the pressure he felt from his parents. And they put enormous pressure on him to be the student council president, to go to law school, to, you know, he just had it. And he hated it. And he wasn't going to make the same mistake with us.
The recording
Timestamps play the recording from that turn
Presenter
BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.
Presenter
My castaway this week is the writer and activist Michael Pollen. He's a lifelong gardener, and his best-selling work explores what he describes as the troubled borders between nature and contemporary life. It's seen him named one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people. His books on horticulture, food and farming are central texts in the sustainable food movement, and many follow his maxim to eat food, not too much, mostly plants. He's a keen participant as well as a chronicler. When he was researching the cattle industry, he bought himself a cow, and for his book on architecture, he built himself a writing hut. Recently, he's been exploring, in several senses of the word, plants that can affect not just our bodies, but our minds, primarily caffeine, opium, and psilocybin.
Presenter
Appropriately enough, his lifetime's work cultivating big ideas started with the single watermelon seed he planted when he was four years old growing up in suburban Long Island. He says, The whole idea that you could plant something and create something of value with sunlight and water and soil and nothing else, to me was a miracle. It still is a miracle.
Presenter
Michael Polland, welcome to Desert Island Discs.
Michael Pollan
Thank you, Lauren. Very good to be here.
Presenter
As I say, Michael, you're very much an immersive writer. When you were writing about the cattle industry, you bought a cow, you built a hut in the garden to write in when you were writing about architecture. Why do you put yourself through these challenges?
Presenter
You know, I think...
Michael Pollan
People like to learn with you rather than be lectured at. And I also find that there's a quality of wonder that you get when you do something for the first time that you're never going to have again. And so it gives you an opportunity to see something even more clearly than people who are expert at it and do it all the time and that you could interview about it. And that might involve building a cottage, buying a cow and following it through the meat system. It would give me a point of view I couldn't get any other way.
Presenter
Michael, you've said many times that that your best ideas come to you when you are in the garden getting your hands dirty. Why is that, do you think?
Michael Pollan
There's something about gardening that leaves the mind very free to wander. Whatever people tell you, it's not that hard. It doesn't take up all your mental space when you're weeding or seeding or deadheading. And so you have a lot of kind of extra space to think. You know, you mentioned I built this writing house for myself. That you can't think because you'll lose a finger, you know, if you're not paying close attention. And I do get good ideas in the garden. It is a very rich place for me to think about our place in nature.
Presenter
This
Presenter
We're talking about immersive experiences, Michael. And on that note, it's time to get stuck into your music. Your first choice today. What are we going to hear? And why are you taking it with you to the island today?
Michael Pollan
This is the Banana Boat song, which is a work song, traditional work song. And my parents were a huge Harry Belafonte fan. He was a major figure in the late 50s, early 60s. I think they were very attracted to his activism. Harry Belafonte has always been a powerful human rights advocate. My parents were political and involved in civil rights struggle at the time. And I just remember as a little kid dancing in the den as they would put on this LP.
Speaker 3
Work all night on a drink o' rum
Speaker 3
Daylight come and we want more Stuck banana till the morning come Daylight come and we want
Speaker 3
Come Mr. Taliman, Talimi Banana. Be like come and be one who.
Speaker 3
Come Mr. Taliman, Talimi Banana.
Presenter
The Banana Boat song by Harry Belafonte. A huge smile all across your face during that track, Michael Polly, which is wonderful to see. So let's go back to the house where that music would be emanating from the stereo then. You were born in 1955. You've got three younger sisters. Tell me about family life back then.
Speaker 3
Got it.
Michael Pollan
So we grew up in a suburban house, a ranch house in suburban Long Island. It was a new neighborhood. It had just been sort of carved out of some farmland and forest. I think we were the first people to live in this house. And I planted my first garden, too, along the foundation of the house. I called it a farm, however. I was only eight. And so I called it a farm because to my mind it was a business enterprise and I would grow vegetables. I was not interested in flowers. They seem pointless. What can you do with a flower? And so I grew peppers and strawberries and carrots. And then whenever I got a harvest, and again, I was eight years old. I really didn't know what I was doing. I would put four strawberries in a little paper cup and sell them to my mother for a quarter or whatever. So that's why it was a farm.
Presenter
Your mother, Corky, I think you've described her as permissive. What was she like?
Michael Pollan
My mother was a brilliant mother, is a brilliant mother. She's still alive. But she was not a big believer in discipline. And I should say that each of my sisters might tell a slightly different story, but at least in my case, she was confident that things would turn out all right, whatever I did.
Presenter
Was that a gift to you, do you think?
Michael Pollan
It was a huge gift. Your parents believing in you is so important to taking chances and risks and failure. And my father, too, who was a lawyer who hated the law, just put no kind of career pressure on me to do this thing or that because he felt he had chosen badly in some ways. Partly because of the pressure he felt from his parents. And they put enormous pressure on him to be the student council president, to go to law school, to, you know, he just had it. And he hated it. And he wasn't going to make the same mistake with us.
Presenter
You said, Michael, that that your your mum had a really great sense of style back then and and she still does today. How does that show itself? When does it come into its own
Michael Pollan
Oh, she's well, when it's your birthday, you get the best gifts. You know, she was a journalist and worked for New York magazine, and she had a column called Best Bets, which le she did for 17 years. It was an institution in New York, and it basically told you where you could find cool, you know, tableware or clothing or various food items. She's ninety-three, and she can still pick out cooler clothing than for me than I can.
Presenter
It's time for disc number two. What's it gonna be?
Michael Pollan
The Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel. In middle school, I had a couple teachers who were just brilliant English teachers. And in this class with Mrs. Zaslow, she played us The Sound of Silence. And we read it as a poem. And it was my first kind of recognition that music and literature had this close connection and that you could find poetry in places other than books.
Speaker 3
Hello, Darkness Mile Friend.
Speaker 3
I've come to talk with you again.
Speaker 3
Because a vision softly creeping
Speaker 3
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
Speaker 3
And a vision
Speaker 3
That was planted in my brain.
Speaker 3
Still remains.
Speaker 3
Within the cell
Presenter
The Sound of Silence. Simon and Garfunkel. Michael Pollen, as we've heard, your father Stephen was a lawyer and writer. Now, you said he let you find your own way to some extent. Would it be fair to say he didn't like to follow the crowd himself?
Michael Pollan
Oh, yeah. He was a uh really a nonconformist.
Michael Pollan
He had a great independent streak, and he was a contrarian. And the most memorable example of that was when I was only four or five, and we hadn't moved to the house I described, which was in Woodbury. We still lived in a much more kind of working-class subdivision in Farmingdale, where everybody had a little ticky-tacky house in a lawn. And in America, the front lawn is a very important institution. In America, we have this democratic idea that all lawns should connect, like one beautiful park. But everyone has to mow their lawn for this conceit to work. And my dad was either a nonconformist or lazy, and you can put either interpretation on this, but he just wouldn't mow his lawn, and he couldn't afford to pay anyone else to. And at a certain point one summer, the lawn was like two feet high. It was a meadow, and it was the only one. And everybody else had the little crew cut, and then you had the meadow, and then the little crew cut. And we could feel the hot breath of condemnation from the neighbors. And there were parents who wouldn't let their kids play with me because this was the house that was.
Presenter
And little crew cat.
Speaker 3
Because of the subsidiary.
Michael Pollan
Yes, it's a huge deal on the American mind, at least on the East Coast. And there's a back story to this, which we were the only Jews in a very Catholic community. So I'm sure there was an anti-Semitic interpretation of what was going on. So we had one neighbor that we were very friendly with, George Hackett. And one day, George, he came over and he said, look, the neighbors are really upset about the lawn. So my dad goes out to the garage, cranks up the lawn mower, this old Toro that hadn't been used all season, and starts making a line through the meadow.
Speaker 3
Please
Michael Pollan
And then turns and comes back, and we can see that it's the letter S.
Michael Pollan
And then he makes an M. And then he makes a P. These are his initials, S M P.
Speaker 3
Mm.
Michael Pollan
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Michael Pollan
And that was it. And he did that for the neighbors and it was like, screw you, we're out of here and we moved the following year. So it was another data point in my fascination with the landscape and what the landscape could do.
Presenter
Mm-hmm.
Michael Pollan
In this case the landscape could be this incredible political protest.
Presenter
So you're an activist and both your parents had a social conscience too. What what kind of changes did they want to see?
Michael Pollan
It was a time of some racial tension in the suburbs. We were in a community called the Gates, and it was this new community, as I said. And there was a black family that moved in, and my parents welcomed them, and had a cocktail party for them. And it became clear that by the people who wouldn't show up to the cocktail party and people who were rude to them, that many people in the community didn't want them there and made them feel very unwelcome. And my parents did what they could to make them feel welcome. They extended themselves in all sorts of ways. But in the end, the family left. And this cost their relationship with many of the neighbors. There were very few families that were willing to engage with us. So we felt a little alienated again in this community.
Presenter
It's time for your next piece of music, Michael. Disc number three. What have you got for us?
Michael Pollan
Canned Heat had a song, a big hit, called Going Up the Country.
Michael Pollan
Around the time I was 13, after the Summer of Love, which was 1967, the kind of urban hippie experience turned sour in many ways. And there were a lot of drugs and overdoses and crime. And so a lot of people moved to the country and moved on to communes. And this is kind of an anthem of that movement, which I was, even though I wasn't ready to move to the country, I was very intrigued by the dream.
Speaker 3
All love this country, five minutes you won't
Speaker 3
Rangoon up the country, favourable chip water
Speaker 3
I'm going to some place where I've never been before.
Speaker 3
I'm going, I'm going where the water days like one.
Speaker 3
I'm going where the water tastes like
Presenter
Can't eat and going up the country. Michael Pollen, while you were a student you got a job as an intern for the Village Voice newspaper in New York. Now you worked with an editor on a section that ran stories about what to do in the city. What do you remember about the experience?
Michael Pollan
She was a wonderful boss, in part because she was in the midst of a torrid affair and was gone for like three or four hours every day. So she left me at 18 to my devices with this section. So I remember for my first piece, I was so excited. I was going to write a piece about pickup basketball and softball games around New York, but it was, of course, way too long. I was so exuberant about my writing. So it didn't fit in the slot we had. And so I had this brilliant idea. I'll shrink the type size. And we had total artistic control of these two pages. So I specified that it would be like six-point type.
Michael Pollan
And so I fit it all in, but at six point on newsprint, it was unreadable. Nobody could read my brilliant pearls of wisdom. So I actually got called in by the managing editor, like, what did you do? And so that was a disaster. But there was something thrilling about publication, I still feel. To see your work in print or even on the screen, but to just see it in that type is still a thrill to me. To hold a book that you've written, I just have that print fetish. And I've learned that you really should cut things if they don't fit.
Presenter
Yeah.
Presenter
It's time for your next disc. What are we going to hear?
Michael Pollan
We're going to hear the song played at our wedding. And this was the first song. This is our first dance. We love the album by Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald. So it was obvious to us that Cheek to Cheek would be the first song. And in 1983, we bought this house in Cornwall, Connecticut. And it was a run-down house on a sladry farm. Now it's just five acres, but five acres. And we built a barn. And this is where we decided to get married. We wanted to get married on our property, on our land. So when the barn was done, Judith filled it with her paintings. And she's a painter. And we had a fairly small wedding, like 75 people, because it was all we could fit. And I have such memories. I mean, it wasn't just played at our wedding, but we would listen to this while we worked. Because in this barn, Judith would paint downstairs, and there was a loft upstairs where I would write. And we had trouble agreeing on music for the reason that artists and writers have very different brains. And so an artist can listen to anything, including books on tape, while working because they're using the other side of their brain. Whereas a writer will be distracted with language that he hasn't heard before. So if a piece of music was familiar enough where you didn't have to listen to the lyrics anymore, I could listen to it while I worked. But nothing new. We could never put on new music. So we would get in these ruts. But one we loved to play was this album. And this song in particular has always meant a lot to us.
Speaker 3
And I seem to find the happiness I see.
Speaker 3
When we out together, dancing cheek to cheek.
Speaker 3
Take it, Ella, swing it.
Speaker 3
Heaven
Speaker 3
I'm in heaven.
Speaker 3
And my heart beats so that I can hardly speak.
Presenter
Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald with cheek to cheek. Michael Pollen, as you've mentioned, you moved to Connecticut with your wife Judith and son Isaac in the eighties, and it was there that you wrote your first book called Second Nature, a Gardener's Education. What did you learn when you were writing it?
Michael Pollan
In wild nature, you're a spectator. You don't have to do anything. You just have to have profound thoughts. Whereas in the garden, you have no choice but to engage. So ha what's the way to engage that doesn't destroy things? It's a place where ethics become very important.
Presenter
Well, on that note, I I do want to ask about one of your what you've, I think, referred to as your misadventures, in particular the intractable and quite bitter enmity between you and a a groundhog.
Michael Pollan
Better and
Michael Pollan
It was actually embarrassing. After I planted my first garden in Connecticut and laid out the rows of broccoli and kale and all those early, early crops, planted it and then came out the next day to see look at my garden.
Michael Pollan
And everything I had planted had been mowed down in the course of one night. I replanted, same thing happened. And I found this woodchuck burrow. And then I started in a series of escalating moves that got a little out of control. I went to war with this woodchuck. I found a dead woodchuck on the road, a roadkill, and I thought if I stuffed the dead woodchuck into the hole, that would.
Presenter
Oh my god.
Michael Pollan
I know. I told you I wasn't proud of this. That would terrorize the woodchuck and he would go away.
Presenter
Was there a moment of clarity during this time where you thought, wait.
Michael Pollan
Yes. Wait. It's about to come. Okay. The moment of clarity came. I had this great idea. I was going to smoke them out. I was going to pour gasoline down the burrow and light a match. Now, I was an English major, not a physics major. And this fountain of flames comes right up at me. It doesn't go down into the earth. It comes at me. And it throws me back.
Presenter
The majority of the
Presenter
Yeah. It doesn't
Michael Pollan
And it was at that moment I realized there had to be a better way to deal with nature.
Michael Pollan
But I realized I was acting the way my civilization is acting, right? I mean, we have a sense of entitlement, we have the big brain, we should be able to control this. And if we can't, we're going to use heavy artillery, right, to subdue nature. And that's essentially what we do. So that was just one example of the kind of lessons I was learning as a gardener.
Presenter
After gardening, Michael, your books began focusing on food, specifically how it's produced and why, in your view, we've forgotten how to cook and really enjoy it. Some of the writing that you did, particularly the maxim, eat food, not too much, mostly plants. You know, that's become a kind of central tenet of that movement. How did you make the switch from being an observer and a chronicler of what was going on to becoming a full-on campaigner and lobbyist? Did you have any idea that your role would evolve in that way?
Michael Pollan
Yeah.
Michael Pollan
It's an interesting thing that happens. If you specialize in an area, as I did for several years, eventually you're going to come to conclusions, right? And it becomes kind of disingenuous to write as the person who doesn't have an opinion. I saw how our food was produced, and some of the way it was being produced was simply wrong. It was unhealthy, it was bad for the animals, it was bad for the land, and it was bad for the eater. So I started becoming somewhat more opinionated in my writing. And fortunately, the editors at the New York Times were willing to let me.
Michael Pollan
take a stance on some of these issues. Part of that was the industry was still asleep. They didn't realize that this criticism was building, and they would eventually fight back. And then we had a a backlash from the industry that made me really feel like a campaigner.
Presenter
Well, I want to find out exactly what happened in a moment. First, though, we've got to get to the music. It's your fifth choice today. What have you got for us next, Michael? And why are you taking it with you to the desert islands?
Michael Pollan
I want to play Shady Grove by Jerry Garcia and David Grisman. While I was working on these pieces, Isaac was born. And, you know, when you have a little kid, music becomes an issue in the car. Are you going to be able to listen to your music or are you going to have to listen to their music? And Jerry Garcia, of course, from The Grateful Dead, and I was a big deadhead. And Dave Grisman did this wonderful collaboration album that Isaac loved. So this was our common denominator. And I can't hear this song without thinking of car trips with Isaac in the back seat.
Speaker 3
Peaches in the summertime, apples in the fall If I can't have the girl I love, I don't want none
Speaker 3
Shady Grove, my little love, Shady Grove I know.
Speaker 3
Shady Grove, my little love, I'm bound for Shady Grove.
Presenter
Shady Grove, Jerry Gossia and David Grisman.
Presenter
Michael Pollen, as we've heard, you've been very critical of intensive farming, and that has made you pretty unpopular with some of the big agribusiness corporations. Were you prepared for their reaction?
Michael Pollan
No, it was kind of very sudden. And I think it was a documentary that I worked on called Food Inc. that really got their attention. And suddenly, you know, I used to get invited to speak to ag schools to talk to people who were going to become farmers. And that was a really important audience for me to reach. Suddenly, all those dates either got canceled or weird things started happening. And so it got a little steamy. Yeah, how did you feel about that? We're having a debate. This is what we should have. So I thought it was a healthy thing by and large. I mean, the effort to shut me down wasn't a healthy thing necessarily, but I got my point of view out there. I still, you know, I no longer get invited to those kinds of schools, which I think is really unfortunate that young farmers are not hearing this critique. Young industrial farmers, anyway. But no, this is the way politics works.
Presenter
Okay.
Presenter
Yeah, how did you
Presenter
Michael, you believe quite strongly that people should eat home cooked, high quality meals and try to steer clear of processed food. But what would you say to someone who says, well, I'd love to do that, but I don't have the time or the resources?
Michael Pollan
Well, I don't know what those resources are. I mean, if you have a pot and a pan, that's pretty much all you need. I mean, you don't need a lot of resources to cook. I think what you need is time. I think, though, we have lost the skills. There are very satisfying and inexpensive meals you can make in 20 minutes. But also, cooking is about communion. It's about family. There's so much else that happens at the dinner table. So, with the full understanding that people can't do it every day, I think if you can put a meal on the table, home cooked, once or twice a week, you've struck a blow for your health, you've struck a blow for sustainable agriculture, and you've struck a blow for a happier family.
Speaker 3
Uh
Presenter
Yeah.
Presenter
It's time for your next piece of music. What are we going to hear, Michael, and why are you taking it with you today?
Michael Pollan
Well, I thought I would play one of my favorite artists, which is Joni Mitchell, and a song that means a lot to me, and it did way back when when I first heard it in college, and that's California. You know, we moved to California. This was a big change in our lives when Isaac was 11, and we were going out just to try it. We'd never lived on the West Coast. And I've just kind of rediscovered Joni Mitchell more recently, and I listened to her a lot. But this one is just so up, and I can see California sunshine when I hear this song.
Speaker 3
Sitting in a park in Paris, France Reading the news and it sure looks bad They won't give peace a chance That was just a dream some of us had Still a lot of lands to see But I wouldn't wanna stay here It's too old and cold And settled in its ways here
Speaker 3
All the California, California, coming home. I'm gonna see the folks I dig.
Presenter
Joni Mitchell and California.
Presenter
So Michael Pollin, your recent work addresses the current research around the use of psychedelic drugs as a potential treatment for some mental health conditions, including depression and post traumatic stress disorder. Why did you want to look into this area of medicine?
Michael Pollan
My basic underlying interest, which grows out of my gardening, is in plants and all the different ways we use plants and they use us. Along the way, I started hearing about this research that psilocybin, which is the chemical in magic mushrooms, was being used to treat people for mental illness. And in one particular study I read about, it was being used with cancer patients to help them deal with their predicament and their fear of death and their fear of recurrence. And they were getting these wonderful results. The idea that psychedelics could be used to treat mental illness was such a mind-blowing idea to me that I decided I should write about this.
Presenter
So Michael, as we've heard, you like to be part of the story yourself, but you weren't able to get on a medical trial. So you actually took the drugs illegally. Now there are risks involved in in taking psychedelics and their effects can be very harmful. Were you frightened about trying them?
Michael Pollan
Oh, yeah, I was terrified. I didn't know what I would discover about myself. I had always been afraid of psychedelics. I hadn't used them when I was a teenager. And, you know, bad things can happen. But I also felt that I could not understand what these patients were telling me without having the experience myself. I had to try it and see what it was like. So I tried as best I could to imitate what was going on in the drug trials, which is to say, I didn't do it on my own. I worked with a guide, a very experienced person who trained as a therapist, who, yes, was working underground.
Presenter
What did you discover about yourself?
Michael Pollan
Well, what was most striking, I think, was I had at the peak of this experience something called ego dissolution. This is something the psychiatrists talk about, where your sense of self just kind of dissolves. And in my case, I felt myself explode in a cloud of blue post-it notes, like confetti. And then it all fell to the ground and mushed into this puddle of blue paint. And that was me. But I was observing this from some perspective I had never had before. I think most of us think we're identical to our ego, and we listen to that voice in our head, which can be highly self-critical or mean or whatever. You know, it's a very selfish voice very often. And I learned from that experience that I'm not identical to my ego, that there are other perspectives in my head, and that I can ignore my ego sometimes. And I can just say, you know what, that's the ego up to his old tricks. I'm going to ignore that. But it's a very exciting revolution in mental health care that may be coming. And it's worth pointing out that, yes, there are psychological risks to taking psychedelics. I think they're very powerful substances and that it has to be used with great care and with guidance. I think that's critical.
Presenter
It's time for your next piece of music, Michael. Your seventh choice today. What are we going to hear?
Michael Pollan
Well, it's a Beatles song, Tomorrow Never Knows, the one that is sometimes cited by psychedelic researchers in preparing people for their experiences. The Beatles were huge for me. I actually had a Nehru jacket at the time that Sgt. Pepper came out. That was the fashion. They had started that fashion because of the cover image on Sgt Pepper. And my mother for Hanukkah got me a Nehru jacket that I was so proud of. And this very mysterious song, it would take me years to understand it. I was probably.
Michael Pollan
Just 11, I didn't really understand this song, is what I can tell you, but I loved it even so.
Speaker 3
Some clothes downstream.
Speaker 3
It is not dying.
Presenter
The Beatles and Tamora Never Knows. Michael, you've you've thought a lot and written a lot about the social function of food, you know, how it bonds us with with friends, family and as a community, and I've got to ask you, what are you like as a dinner companion, or what do you like to cook for?
Presenter
People must be intimidated, mustn't they? They must be terrified if they're hosting a dinner party and they invite you.
Michael Pollan
You know, it is true. I think I get invited to fewer dinner parties since I started writing about food. But um I'm you know, I'm a very happy eater. I'm not critical. So please invite me.
Presenter
And I mean, is there ever a day when you're rushing between jobs or on a long journey and you pick up a burger? Is there a any convenience food you would like for?
Michael Pollan
Yeah, pizza, I love pizza, and burgers too. I would rather it be grass-fed and not off of a feedlot, just because I have images now. I've been on feedlots, I've seen how the chickens live, I've seen how the pigs are confined, and I can't enjoy that food very much. But when I'm eating something that's been grown by a farmer who knows what they're doing and is treating his animals well or her animals well, I can eat meat with great pleasure.
Presenter
Well, Michael, it's almost time to send you off to the desert island. You are one of the better equipped castaways as such an experienced gardener for this adventure.
Michael Pollan
Such an experienced gardener.
Michael Pollan
Se and and really I should be bringing seeds and not music.
Presenter
How do you feel about what you might be able to cultivate there? What are you imagining you're facing?
Michael Pollan
Oh, God. I I don't know. You know, tropical soils are tough because they're they they drain, they have so much water coming through them. So I'm going to have to figure out what grows in that particular place. And I hope that there are coconuts on top of that that palm tree that I'm picturing.
Presenter
Well, one more track before we send you there. Your last choice today, Michael, what's it gonna be?
Michael Pollan
Bach's cello suite in D minor, number two in D minor, played by Yo-Yo Ma. I listened to this piece while I was dissolved, while I didn't have a self. When your ego dissolves, there's no wall between you and the world. You merge with whatever is around you. And at various moments, I felt like I could feel Yo-Yo Ma's bow, you know, the horsehair bow, going across my body, or I was inside that vault of space inside the cello. And it was just this experience of complete oneness with a piece of music. And it was the most profound listening experience I had had before because I became music. And I know how crazy that sounds. I played this for my dad when he was dying. We sat with him for those last couple days. And the communication that took place was through music. And I knew he loved Yo-Yo Ma and cello music. So this brings me back to that room, you know, in January of 2018. It's a very profound piece.
Presenter
Bach's cello suite in D minor, performed by Yo Yo Ma.
Presenter
Michael Pollen, I'm about to cast you away to the island. I'm going to give you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare. You can also take another book of your choice. What will that be?
Michael Pollan
Well, I guess I would want a book that's gonna last a long time.
Presenter
Mm.
Michael Pollan
So I might bring Ulysses.
Presenter
You can also have a luxury item for pleasure or sensory stimulation, what you fancy.
Michael Pollan
It would be dark chocolate, 75%. I could draw it out. I don't need to do it.
Presenter
I don't need to.
Michael Pollan
Yeah, I would just do a little square a day.
Presenter
And none of those fancy ones that they do with, you know, the salted caramel and the chili and everything. No.
Michael Pollan
And everything. No. No, no, no, no. That's very distracting. I just want straight dark chocolate.
Presenter
I'm going to give it. It's going to be huge. It's going to be like a wonker bar-sized.
Michael Pollan
Okay, thank you.
Presenter
Supply enormous
Michael Pollan
Uh
Presenter
And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you rush to save from the waves if you had to?
Michael Pollan
I think it would be the cello suite.
Michael Pollan
There's so much to think about in that piece.
Presenter
Michael Pollen, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.
Michael Pollan
Thank you, Lauren. It was a great pleasure.
Presenter
Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Michael. I'm quite sure he'll be able to cultivate a wonderful garden on the island. Let's hope there are no groundhogs there, though. We've cast away many gardeners and food lovers, including Monty Don, Hugh Fernley Whittingstall, Helen Browning, and James Reebanks. You can find their episodes in our Desert Island Discs programme archive and through BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Jackie Marduram, the assistant producer was Isabel Sargent, and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the climate scientist Professor Corin Le Carray. I do hope you'll join us.
Speaker 2
Is Batman actually a baddie? Wayne Enterprises have a huge carbon footprint here. What's really going on with Marvin Gaye? The moment you play it, everyone's raising eyebrows. Was Cleopatra a snake or a saviour? She's manipulated Roman leaders. Maybe she had a great personality. I'm Russell Kane and this is Evil Genius. It's where I join a panel of comedians to reveal surprising things about historical icons. Not even the Hobbits are safe.
Presenter
I'm on board.
Speaker 2
Have you dated any?
Speaker 2
Evil Genius with me, Russell Cain. Listen on BBC Sounds.
Presenter asks
Once you came to conclusions [about food production], how did you make the switch from being an observer to becoming a campaigner?
It's an interesting thing that happens. If you specialize in an area, as I did for several years, eventually you're going to come to conclusions, right? And it becomes kind of disingenuous to write as the person who doesn't have an opinion. I saw how our food was produced, and some of the way it was being produced was simply wrong. It was unhealthy, it was bad for the animals, it was bad for the land, and it was bad for the eater. So I started becoming somewhat more opinionated in my writing. And fortunately, the editors at the New York Times were willing to let me take a stance on some of these issues. Part of that was the industry was still asleep. They didn't realize that this criticism was building, and they would eventually fight back. And then we had a a backlash from the industry that made me really feel like a campaigner.
Presenter asks
What would you say to someone who says they'd love [to cook] but don't have the time or resources?
Well, I don't know what those resources are. I mean, if you have a pot and a pan, that's pretty much all you need. I mean, you don't need a lot of resources to cook. I think what you need is time. I think, though, we have lost the skills. There are very satisfying and inexpensive meals you can make in 20 minutes. But also, cooking is about communion. It's about family. There's so much else that happens at the dinner table. So, with the full understanding that people can't do it every day, I think if you can put a meal on the table, home cooked, once or twice a week, you've struck a blow for your health, you've struck a blow for sustainable agriculture, and you've struck a blow for a happier family.
Presenter asks
Why did you want to look into [psychedelic drugs as potential treatment for mental health conditions]?
My basic underlying interest, which grows out of my gardening, is in plants and all the different ways we use plants and they use us. Along the way, I started hearing about this research that psilocybin, which is the chemical in magic mushrooms, was being used to treat people for mental illness. And in one particular study I read about, it was being used with cancer patients to help them deal with their predicament and their fear of death and their fear of recurrence. And they were getting these wonderful results. The idea that psychedelics could be used to treat mental illness was such a mind-blowing idea to me that I decided I should write about this.
Presenter asks
Were you frightened about trying [psychedelics] illegally?
Oh, yeah, I was terrified. I didn't know what I would discover about myself. I had always been afraid of psychedelics. I hadn't used them when I was a teenager. And, you know, bad things can happen. But I also felt that I could not understand what these patients were telling me without having the experience myself. I had to try it and see what it was like. So I tried as best I could to imitate what was going on in the drug trials, which is to say, I didn't do it on my own. I worked with a guide, a very experienced person who trained as a therapist, who, yes, was working underground.
“People like to learn with you rather than be lectured at. And I also find that there's a quality of wonder that you get when you do something for the first time that you're never going to have again.”
“There's something about gardening that leaves the mind very free to wander. Whatever people tell you, it's not that hard. It doesn't take up all your mental space when you're weeding or seeding or deadheading. And so you have a lot of kind of extra space to think.”
“[My father] was a nonconformist. He had a great independent streak, and he was a contrarian. And the most memorable example of that was when I was only four or five... in America, the front lawn is a very important institution... and my dad was either a nonconformist or lazy, and you can put either interpretation on this, but he just wouldn't mow his lawn... And at a certain point one summer, the lawn was like two feet high. It was a meadow, and it was the only one... And we could feel the hot breath of condemnation from the neighbors.”
“I had at the peak of this experience something called ego dissolution... In my case, I felt myself explode in a cloud of blue post-it notes, like confetti. And then it all fell to the ground and mushed into this puddle of blue paint. And that was me. But I was observing this from some perspective I had never had before. I think most of us think we're identical to our ego, and we listen to that voice in our head, which can be highly self-critical or mean or whatever. You know, it's a very selfish voice very often. And I learned from that experience that I'm not identical to my ego, that there are other perspectives in my head, and that I can ignore my ego sometimes.”
“I listened to this piece [Bach's cello suite] while I was dissolved, while I didn't have a self. When your ego dissolves, there's no wall between you and the world. You merge with whatever is around you. And at various moments, I felt like I could feel Yo-Yo Ma's bow, you know, the horsehair bow, going across my body, or I was inside that vault of space inside the cello. And it was just this experience of complete oneness with a piece of music. And it was the most profound listening experience I had had before because I became music.”