Edward Enninful

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:43

My castaway this week is Edward Enninful, the editor-in-chief of British Vogue and the editorial director of Vogue in Europe. He's the first man to hold the post and the first black editor in Vogue's 100-year history across any of its 26 international titles. Under his leadership, the magazine has championed diversity and encouraged writers, models and designers of all backgrounds and experiences to tell their stories in its pages. His mission was to provide not just aspiration but inspiration, in his words, for every woman to be able to find themselves in the magazine. His love of fashion goes back to his childhood in Ghana, where his father was a major in the army and his mother was a dressmaker. She was, he says, his role model. As a child, he sat by her sewing machine, filling notebooks with designs for elaborate gowns, much to his father's disapproval.

Presenter1:35

When he was a teenager, political turmoil forced the family to relocate to London. There, he was scouted as a model, which opened his eyes to fashion and all its possibilities. He worked as a magazine stylist before taking on his first editorial role at just 18. But despite his success, like a true trendsetter, his focus remains firmly on what comes next. He says, I still feel like I'm at the beginning. I feel the fire of something new, staying stagnant. That's terrifying. Edward Enful, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Edward Enninful2:08

Me, it's such an honor to be here.

Presenter2:10

Well, it's a pleasure to have you. So let's start with editing, because it is an ever evolving, ever changing role. What part of being an editor do you find the most rewarding?

Edward Enninful2:20

I mean, you know, when you're on a shoot, you know, you get there in the b in the beginning.

Edward Enninful2:24

It's what I call the search. You're trying to find the image, you're trying to play with hair, makeup, and then when that moment happens, when you're like, this is the character, this is where we're going, there's nothing like it. It always starts with a character for you, right? What was the character? Yes, for me, you know, I remember years ago I'd go to Paris and I'll see the shows and there'll be a dress and most stylists would take that dress and create a story and I just couldn't. And I realized that, you know, I liked a narrative, so I had to have a character, where they lived, that became the location. And then the clothes were the last really resort in the story.

Presenter2:59

You said uh that fashion can be a brilliant place to hide. What did you mean by that?

Edward Enninful3:04

I was a total nerd growing up with my glasses and my afro. So, you know, I can produce images, really strong images that can contribute to change in the world, whether it's about diversity or whether it's shining a light on people who've been othered or whatever. It's so important. I can just be quiet in the background and really let the world see what I can do.

Presenter3:27

How would you describe your own style?

Edward Enninful3:30

I remember as a stylist, I never wanted to be the focus, so I'd just wake up and put on something black. And to this day, it's more of you know, more or less the same. But now I wear a little bit of blue, a little bit of white, but it's so I don't stand out.

Presenter3:43

I think your style might owe a little bit s to your father's uh look throughout his life.

Edward Enninful3:48

Throughout his life, he wore dark colours a lot, didn't he? He used to love sort of V neck sweaters, grey pants, just really classic. And now I look at myself and I'm like, Oh my god, I look like my dad. That's to do with my moustache as well. And he had a moustache, so

Presenter3:56

Yeah.

Speaker 13:59

Oh.

Presenter4:03

It's time for your first disc. What are you going to start with?

Edward Enninful4:06

It's a Ghanaian high life song called Chenchenbi Adimawu by Alhaji K. Frimpong. When we were growing up in Ghana, I'll be with my mother. My mother was an incredible seamstress. And you know, watching all these incredible women come in, all different shapes and sizes. And this song will be playing in the background. And so it reminds me of really happy days. And I remember my dad, who was very strict. One of the few times where he would let his hair down was he would have his friends would gather around in our lounge and my brothers would dance for him to this song.

Edward Enninful4:40

And they'll be drinking palm wine and it was such a great memory.

Edward Enninful5:00

I sound like

Edward Enninful5:02

I said never in my school.

Presenter5:14

Chen Chen B. Adimawu by Alhadike Frimpong.

Presenter5:19

So, Edward Ennenfel, you were born in the port city of Takaradi in Ghana in 1972, and it was your mother, Grace, who ignited your interest in fashion. How did you do it?

Edward Enninful5:28

Yeah.

Edward Enninful5:30

I mean, my mother, you know, was a seamstress, I mean, a designer essentially. And she had an Atelier with 40 apprentices, as she called them. And every day was magical. Every day was sketching with her, watching women get dressed, you know, African dresses, headscarves to the sky, tiny waist, those incredible color combinations, oranges and greens. And I just loved just watching my mother work and watching all these incredible women, black women, just come in and out. And I think that really sort of informed my styling because I can tell when a woman is happy. How can you tell? I can just tell by a little wrinkle of the nose or a little intense look in the eye. But I learned all that from my mother.

Presenter6:13

Yeah.

Presenter6:15

She took you along to fittings.

Edward Enninful6:16

Yeah.

Presenter6:17

What what did you do?

Edward Enninful6:18

I would go to the Presidential Palace'cause she was friends with the First Lady. And I was obsessed with my mum, so I'd always stare at her. I didn't want to be more than a feet away from her.

Edward Enninful6:28

this world opened up, this world that was fashion. I didn't even know what it was at the time. But I knew clo I loved clothes and my little sketches, sort of in my notepads, and she would encourage it and she would encourage me to dream.

Speaker 16:32

But

Presenter6:40

So this sounds like a real contrast, that that world you were enveloped in with your mother to your father's world. He was a a a major in the army, in the Ghanaian army, your father Crosby. What sort of parent was he?

Edward Enninful6:53

My father was a disciplinarian. He didn't quite know what to do with me, you know, like my sketches. I'll have to hide them when I saw him. And I was very soft. So I k I think that's what really happens to a lot of

Presenter6:59

Uh

Speaker 26:59

Yeah.

Edward Enninful7:06

I guess a lot of gay kids, you know, you don't know what you are, but you kind of sense there's a diff you're different.

Presenter7:13

You said your dad was a disciplinarian, so you you were physically punished as a kid.

Edward Enninful7:15

Don't

Edward Enninful7:17

Well, you mean I remember you h you hold out your hand and

Presenter7:17

Ah.

Edward Enninful7:20

Slapped over here, this host tail whip, and you slapped the kids in the hands. And for my brothers, it was okay. They're like, oh yeah, we'll just do it. It'd just be a couple of lashes or whatever. But for me, it was so deep.

Speaker 17:25

The back

Edward Enninful7:31

Because I didn't feel I've did anything wrong. I never went out to play. I never you know, all I did was like I would line up stones and be the teacher. And I would teach the stones and I'll give the you know, they'll be in detention and they'll be performing. That's all I ever did. So, yes, I was a little.

Edward Enninful7:48

Yeah, I was a little sensitive.

Presenter7:50

Edward, we're going to have some more music. This is your second choice today. What have you gone for and why?

Edward Enninful7:55

Oh my god, sung to the siren by this mortal coil. The singer is Elizabeth Fraser from the Cocteau Twins, who I was obsessed with. And you know, it was a time of MTV. It was this new world that was just so magical. This is when you.

Presenter8:11

This is when you just arrived in London.

Edward Enninful8:13

Yeah, we just arrived in London, you know, the home of the Queen, the home of boy George, who I you know, I worshipped because he was gay, um and just, you know, a relief from the harsh realities of Margaret Thatcher's eighties, you know, when you left the house, you were stopped and searched and the Brixton riots. So MTV was so great for me and Elizabeth Fraser's voice was just so magical.

Presenter8:38

On the floor in shapeless oceans

Presenter8:45

I didn't know

Edward Enninful8:49

My best to smile

Edward Enninful8:54

Till you're my singer guys

Presenter8:58

Fingers.

Presenter9:00

Drew me laughing to your eyes

Presenter9:08

Song to the Siren, this mortal coil. So, Edward Enninful, your father was an army major, as we mentioned, so you lived on military bases when you were growing up. One was called Birmer Camp. What do you remember about living there?

Edward Enninful9:16

Yeah.

Edward Enninful9:22

So I remember there was a hill, and on the hill there were these sticks, and every weekend somebody would be marched a few people would be marched up there, sort of covered with sacking, and essentially be executed. But we were so young, so we'd be like, you know, Sunday's firing scot day. And it's funny what becomes acceptable as a child.

Edward Enninful9:44

You didn't equate death with Burma Camp. But my mother did and got us out of there so fast. But, you know, that was part of growing up. Oh, it's it's firing squad day. So, you know, hours of therapy needed.

Presenter9:58

Wow, it's as you say, you know, at that age, whatever you.

Edward Enninful9:58

See you later.

Presenter10:02

or growing up in was normal. But but looking back, you know, it was this hugely politically volatile time in in Ghana in the early eighties. And your dad's life was was actually in danger. So so by nineteen eighty five

Edward Enninful10:03

Pin is normal, but

Edward Enninful10:08

Let's go.

Presenter10:15

He'd made the decision to seek asylum in London. You all lived with your aunt, I think, first, in Vauxhall.

Edward Enninful10:25

What were your early impressions? Oh, my God. So I remember turning to my brother and saying, oh my God, it's all white people. I mean, we we'd never seen so many white people in our lives. You know, in Ghana, we were the majority. Everybody was black, you know, lawyers, doctors, the President.

Speaker 110:34

Yeah.

Edward Enninful10:40

And so coming to England was very different. And we went from essentially being a middle class family to being sort of

Edward Enninful10:48

Not having anything, penniless and

Edward Enninful10:51

going to school in Vauxhall and being called names like Bubbo,

Edward Enninful10:55

It was a real culture shock. Because I remember w you know, in class the teacher saying something like to the black kids, like, Oh, don't worry about them, they're not going to amount to anything. But for me, that was so strange because I like I said, I come from a country with doctors, lawyers, everybody sort of

Edward Enninful11:10

in the, you know, the social ladder and it was really shocking.

Presenter11:13

It was really good.

Presenter11:14

So a teacher said that about the kids in your class to you.

Edward Enninful11:17

The black kids who were not maybe didn't want to study or a little bit loud and yeah, literally gave up on them. So I remember even from that age thinking.

Edward Enninful11:27

I will never give up on people who need help.

Presenter11:29

Your father couldn't work, which was because of his status as an asylum seeker. He he wasn't allowed to work for three years. So so what was life like for you, um living in your aunt's flat? You were all quite quite crammed there.

Edward Enninful11:31

Yeah.

Edward Enninful11:40

Yeah, there was six of us, and it was my aunt and her two kids. But I remember being so happy, squashed into those two rooms in Vauxhall, watching Top of the Pops, reading Smash Hits, number one magazine. I was soaking in everything. When I say soaking in culture, beauty, it was like Willy Wonka or something.

Presenter12:02

It's time for some more music. What are we going to hear next and why?

Edward Enninful12:05

Next we're going to hear Strange Fruit by Nina Simone.

Edward Enninful12:10

My school was predominantly black and Asian, and I remember hearing the song in a music class and listening to the words, and it was the first time I realized that being black really was

Edward Enninful12:25

was difficult.

Presenter12:27

And that wasn't a sense that you'd grown up with in Ghana. It wasn't until you came to the UK.

Edward Enninful12:30

Until you you came to the UK? It was a song that my father would play and I didn't really understand the sort of American experience. I didn't understand about slavery. And it wasn't until I heard it again in London

Edward Enninful12:44

And analyze the words that it made sense. Seven trees.

Speaker 112:54

Barren Strange fruit

Speaker 113:01

Blah.

Edward Enninful13:01

Uh Uh On the leaves.

Edward Enninful13:08

Uh

Speaker 113:08

And blood at the roots.

Edward Enninful13:15

Black bodies swinging in the summer

Presenter13:25

Nina Simone and Strange Fruit.

Presenter13:28

Edward Eninful, by nineteen eighty eight your family had moved into a council house in Ladborough Grove, West London. One morning on your way to college by tube, you met someone who you've said more than anyone else changed the course of your life. I think you were flicking through a fashion magazine, daydreaming. Who was he and what happened?

Edward Enninful13:45

Yeah.

Edward Enninful13:47

A guy was staring at me, I remember, from Hammersmith all the way to Baker Street and I was so innocent, I was so naive, I just thought I'd done something wrong. And in Baker Street he got up and said his name was Simon Foxton, that he was a stylist for a magazine called ID and another one called Arena, and what I model.

Edward Enninful14:08

And I was like, Model, okay.

Edward Enninful14:10

So I went home and I told Mum, I showed her the card, and she said, No, no, no, not that business, it's full of funny people.

Edward Enninful14:18

Whatever that meant. What did that mean?

Edward Enninful14:21

And this meant gay people.

Edward Enninful14:23

So but then, you know, I wore her down we I just wouldn't stop. And then eventually she called Simon and I was on a shoot a week later and that really opened up the fashion world.

Presenter14:27

And I need

Presenter14:35

Did you raise it with your dad? Did your dad know what you were doing?

Edward Enninful14:37

No, no, we didn't tell him.

Presenter14:38

No, okay, so this was a this was a you and your mum project, strictly.

Edward Enninful14:42

And my my siblings in the

Presenter14:44

And what was it like? So you you've you

Edward Enninful14:45

Find your way to this shoot. I just had to take my top off and sort of lay under a tree crawling with ants with ants. But I was so happy, I I wouldn't complain. And somehow being in front of the camera, I just felt so confident. I wasn't so shy.

Presenter15:03

And the

Edward Enninful15:03

The more

Presenter15:05

You started at Goldsmiths University around this time, Edward, but decided to drop out to concentrate on your fashion work. How did that go down with your parents?

Edward Enninful15:14

I remember going home and my dad asking about college and having the courage to finally say, I I don't wanna go. Yeah, I've been leading sort of

Edward Enninful15:24

Yeah.

Presenter15:26

How did he react?

Edward Enninful15:26

Oh yeah, out came the clothes, out the window, the biker shorts, the the Coffrey Hamlet boots. He th he threw so he came from a country where it was

Presenter15:35

Yeah

Speaker 115:35

Yeah.

Edward Enninful15:38

being academic was the be all and end all. So he didn't know what the media was, didn't know what fashion was. So I think now looking back, I think he was he was scared and in this big bad one and then out I went.

Presenter15:50

Yeah.

Edward Enninful15:51

Moved i moved in with my cousin, Michael, in East London.

Presenter15:54

Did you try and contact your dad at uh at any point to make up?

Edward Enninful15:57

No, I kept saying to myself, I will never go back home.

Edward Enninful16:03

Failure is not an option. Can you imagine being so young, a teenager, and knowing that I didn't want to give my father the satisfaction of thinking that I'd failed or didn't succeed?

Presenter16:15

We'll find out what happened next in a minute, but first I think we'd better have some music, Edward. What's your next track?

Edward Enninful16:21

Back to Life by Soul to Soul

Edward Enninful16:24

It really was when I was after I was feeling myself at that point. I had a gang, you know, I was a model, I was cute, and um we would go to Covent Garden, you know, to the Africa Center, and really clubbing was my life.

Presenter16:39

So the Africa Centre is where

Edward Enninful16:41

Right, soul to soul often.

Presenter16:41

So to solve it.

Edward Enninful16:43

And it was the perfect place to be and I just felt like I really belonged in London.

Presenter16:54

Trump.

Speaker 216:55

But that's a

Presenter16:55

Time.

Speaker 216:55

From a fantastic

Speaker 217:01

And we now take the initiative. I'll leave it in your hands until

Speaker 217:17

Oh baby, do you wanna be

Presenter17:20

Soul to soul and back to life. Edward N. Infel, when you were just eighteen you were appointed I D Magazine's Fashion Director, so you were the youngest person ever to hold this post at an international fashion title. This was in nineteen ninety one, so the mainstream was all about the height of glamour, but you were after something different, I think.

Edward Enninful17:40

We just wanted to show our reality, which was Portobello Market, Camden Market, second hand clothes. We wanted to shoot each other in our flats. But I also discovered earlier on that there were these incredible women that they were calling the supermodels. So I thought ID had to be

Edward Enninful17:59

The one that sort of represented them, and we were all the same age. So, kind of.

Presenter18:03

Yeah.

Edward Enninful18:03

Yeah.

Presenter18:03

Uh

Edward Enninful18:03

Being them.

Presenter18:03

Yeah.

Edward Enninful18:03

Like Naomi would literally buy food for us because she would just get off a plane from Stephen Meisel's shoe and she'll be in the back of a a van, that's all we could afford, changing in the back of a van.

Presenter18:16

So this is Naomi Campbell, your lifelong friend. So you had a change in in the back of a van for Ida?

Edward Enninful18:17

Yeah.

Edward Enninful18:20

Yeah, but it wasn't just Naomi, it was Linda, it was all of them.

Presenter18:23

I mean, obviously, you were enjoying an incredible social life at this time, having tons of fun. The club culture in London was incredibly vibrant.

Edward Enninful18:26

This time huh?

Edward Enninful18:30

And then I'm going to go to the next one.

Presenter18:32

But were you taking full advantage on the on the kind of drink and drugs front?

Edward Enninful18:35

Oh my god. I mean basically we were like

Edward Enninful18:38

Out every night.

Edward Enninful18:39

drinking. And then, you know, when you're in your twenties you can do that, not sleep, you know. And but then eventually it started to take its toll and um sort of in my early thirties I decided I didn't want to drink any more. What was the turning point? Where what when I had a

Presenter18:53

The turning point was really

Edward Enninful18:55

party at my house and I don't know, I just left, went somewhere else, came back and my passport had been stolen and I had a styling gig in, um, Italy to style the Dorcha Cabana men's show and I didn't have a passport.

Edward Enninful19:09

And I remember going to the embassy with a bottle of vodka in my back pocket thinking that was okay. And then, you know, from then on, I decided, you know, I got to the show three days later or something. And the minute it started to affect my work, because before, you know, nothing affected my work. I could stay up all night and still do the job at hand, you know, because I've been taught that, you know, black people, they say to you, you have to work ten times as hard to get anywhere. So so long as my work didn't suffer, but the one time it suffered,

Speaker 119:14

Yeah.

Edward Enninful19:38

I decided to stop drinking.

Presenter19:40

It's time to hear some more music. What's your next track?

Edward Enninful19:44

My fifth song is Lauren Hill, X Factor from that incredible album, The Miseducation of Lauren Hill. At this point, you know, I've been at ID, I was an established fashion director. I really sort of had come into my stride. America had come calling and Lauren Hill really represented a new freedom.

Speaker 120:07

Uh

Speaker 220:07

Oh, be so simple.

Speaker 220:13

But you'd rather make it hard

Speaker 120:16

Uh

Speaker 220:19

Love you.

Speaker 120:21

It's like a bad thing.

Speaker 120:25

And we won't think of the scar Uh

Presenter20:30

Tell me who I have

Presenter20:36

Lauren Hill, an X Factor.

Presenter20:38

Edward Ennenfel, in twenty seventeen you were approached by Jonathan Newhouse, the chief executive of Conde Nast, to apply for the job of Editor in Chief at British Vogue, to the surprise of some fashion commentators and yourself, I think.

Edward Enninful20:53

I wasn't even thinking about it because I thought I'm never going to get this job because, let's face it, it's for middle to upper class white women.

Edward Enninful21:00

I didn't realize that Jonathan's plan really was to sort of take Vogue into a new decade.

Edward Enninful21:07

And I thought, you know, I'm going back home. I've been living in America for a while. I'm going back home. They're going to love me. Oh my God, England, the country.

Edward Enninful21:15

Oh boy. I was the black sheep. I was uh the cat the cat that got into craft.

Presenter21:21

Yeah.

Presenter21:22

So these are these are things that people actually wrote. So there was an article in one of the newspapers and they'd interviewed someone someone else who'd interviewed for the job, I think. And they'd said, we feel like we've ended Croft and the Cat one.

Edward Enninful21:26

I mean

Edward Enninful21:28

And they'd interviewed someone.

Edward Enninful21:35

Yeah, and the cat won.

Edward Enninful21:37

Yeah.

Presenter21:37

And you felt those comments were racist?

Edward Enninful21:38

Oh man, I didn't feel it was racist. It was racist.

Presenter21:40

Yeah, but can you can you know

Edward Enninful21:41

You know, at one point I was you know, I was always oh, the black sheep was always Ghanaian born, which means, you know, just you know straight away that I'm not white. The dogs got into crops by the cut one, like I was the son of the breed altogether. And, you know, I remember calling a fr a friend of mine, you know, Naomi again, and'cause she'd been through this. And I said, Naomi, I don't I don't she said, Just don't read it.

Edward Enninful22:06

But I just knew that the first issue I was creating was actually a love letter to Britain.

Edward Enninful22:11

It was a love letter to the country that took my family in, the country that literally gave me a life. So, my first issue, of course, was a love letter to Great Britain.

Presenter22:20

And that's what it was. It was articulating this this vision of Britishness that really kind of set the course ahead for where you were going to take the magazine. Tell me about that direction of travel. What was the original vision?

Edward Enninful22:30

I mean, I remember sort of looking around at my friends and seeing that they weren't reflected in the magazine. When I say my friends, I mean people of different races, religions. I keep harking on socioeconomic background, size, age. They weren't in the magazine. And for me, I just thought that's not even good business. So I just wanted to create a magazine that was inclusive, a magazine that was about diversity, where every woman would see themselves. And that was it. That was really the manifesto I had. 2017, nobody wanted it.

Presenter23:02

Do you feel like you will need

Edward Enninful23:03

Yeah.

Presenter23:03

Uh

Edward Enninful23:03

And then

Presenter23:04

The charge that

Edward Enninful23:04

I mean, I know 2017, nobody wanted it. And I also always say I knew what I was going to do, but I was also not scared. I said to a friend of mine, I'm sure I'll be fired in three months, but I would rather be fired for what I believed in. So I went in with that. And then, you know, the whole world embraced it. And now diversity is, you know, a word that's used every day. It's part of everyday language. But I just really just wanted to show how incredible women were in all their different guises.

Presenter23:36

Edward, it's time for disc number six. What are we going to hear next and why are you taking it to the island today?

Edward Enninful23:41

I always loved a song by Belle and Sebastian. I had a musician partner, so he really influenced me where pop music was concerned. And yeah, Belle and Sebastian starts off Track and Field.

Speaker 223:56

Could I write a piece about you now that you've made it?

Speaker 224:04

But the hours spent the wilderness in your training

Edward Enninful24:08

Yeah.

Speaker 224:13

You only did it so that you could wear Terry underwear, feel the city air run past your body.

Presenter24:25

Belle and Sebastian and stars of track and field.

Presenter24:29

Edward Ennenfel, at Vogue, you've championed diversity and inclusivity in all of its forms, colour, size, age, gender. You recently put the first man on the cover, Timothy Chalamet. But what about financial inclusivity? Because obviously, you know, we're in the middle of a cost of living crisis and clothes costing thousands and thousands of pounds obviously don't reflect reality for most people. Isn't that a problem?

Edward Enninful24:52

So, I mean, I always talk about sort of including people from all socioeconomic backgrounds, the cost of living. We have to really take this very seriously. There is a recession coming. I practice at Vogue something called buy better, buy less. Buy that one piece so you're not out there buying something new every week. Go back to what we did when we were kids. You know, if you can't afford what's in there, create it, use second-hand pieces, mix and match. I mean, you know, I grew up poor, as we've discussed, and I would go to jumbo sales, second-hand stores, and that's how I was able to dress myself.

Presenter25:28

Edward, you've continued to speak out and to use your platform to talk about your own personal experiences of racial profiling, which have been throughout your career. One recent example is particularly shocking because it happened at Vogue House, the home of the magazine that you run.

Presenter25:43

What do you recall about that incident?

Edward Enninful25:46

I mean, I remember, you know, it was in lockdown, everybody everybody was sort of lost and and we were going back to the office, so I went back to the office and um there was a lady sort of at reception, a security guard, and as I walked in, she walked towards me and she just really directed me to the loading bay, and I was like, Excuse me?

Edward Enninful26:05

And she just assumed, I guess, because I was black that I belonged in Loding Bay. But like I said, you know, I'm a black person living in in the world today. It wasn't the first time and it won't be the last time. But the great thing of the I can do something about it so young the young generation don't have to go through that and feel powerless or helpless. And I did something about it.

Presenter26:24

You put it out there on on social media.

Edward Enninful26:25

Social media.

Presenter26:26

Media

Edward Enninful26:26

Just to let people know that even at my level I still have to go through that. And it was okay because it keeps me grounded. That moment was very crucial to let the world know that I still face this, but I will do s

Presenter26:42

something about it.

Presenter26:44

It's time for more music, Edward. What have you got for us next?

Edward Enninful26:47

Peru.

Edward Enninful26:49

By Fireboy DML and Ed Sheeran. I'm obsessed with Afrobeats. It's more than just music, it's almost like growing up in a country that was so removed from where I am today, really, in this music that I've carried with me in my soul, that's now the coolest music in the world.

Edward Enninful27:15

When you won't want me, when you won't want me, I'm in San Francisco, Jamie. When you won't want me, when you won't want me, I just flew in from Miami, baby.

Speaker 227:25

Bye.

Speaker 227:26

Middle Bay

Speaker 227:30

Evil bad, we've done with fire Pour out the bottle, I wanna level up

Presenter27:35

Peru by Fireboy DML and Ed Sheeran. Edward Eninful, you've suffered from retinal detachments over the years and have been through several surgeries. Now your job is all about visuals, images. How did those experiences affect you creatively?

Edward Enninful27:51

The idea of not being able to see is probably the scariest thing for me.

Edward Enninful27:56

And I remember the first surgery, you know, they put a a bubble in your eye and it's sort of filled with air, and then you have to sort of stare down.

Presenter28:05

So that's kind of holding your retina.

Edward Enninful28:07

Yes, holding your retina back in place. And then it it gets smaller and smaller. So for after three weeks you're able to sort of look up. So you're down, literally looking down.

Presenter28:16

Lying face down. Yeah.

Edward Enninful28:17

Yeah. But in that moment, I dreamt bigger than ever. I dreamt in technique color. I saw images that I hadn't seen before because I was busy'cause I was in the darkness. I was in darkness as well. I dreamt shoes. I dreamt covers. So even though it was the darkest period of my life, in a funny way the brain went into creative overdrive, like it did when I was younger. But yes, it was probably the scariest moment of my life.

Presenter28:44

Edward, um your your mother, Grace, died in in twenty sixteen. Um you lost her and and I know that after your long estrangement you got back in touch with your father around that time.

Speaker 128:54

Uh

Edward Enninful28:54

Yeah.

Presenter28:55

How were you able to reconcile?

Edward Enninful28:58

I mean, you know, my mother had a stroke and my father had always been sort of this kind of ogre in a way. And I just watched him look after my mother for 15 years without care. Literally would be with her every day looking after her, putting her to bed, you know, taking her from and I just saw a different man. I just saw a man getting older who just loved his wife dearly. And that really softened me. And we'll go to my sister's house for sort of Sunday dinners and we'll talk more and more. And then when my mother passed, I was awarded an OBE and I had a party at the Marks Club.

Edward Enninful29:35

Just watched him surrounded by all my famous friends and he was just so happy, dancing in his own world. So yes, we're really, really we're good now.

Presenter29:44

I know he was lost in the music, but I think he was right up on next to someone on the dance floor who I'm not sure he even noticed. That he was dancing.

Edward Enninful29:50

He didn't notice. He was just in his own world. But I just, you know, reali f I think for him it must have been a great end to the journey, you know, when your children are okay and healthy and

Presenter30:08

You also got married recently to your long-term partner, Alec, on your fiftieth birthday. How is married life?

Edward Enninful30:10

Belonged

Edward Enninful30:15

Being married to Alec is one of the most it's the most incredible thing I've ever done because I wouldn't be here doing what I do without Alec and his support. And it was one of the most beautiful days.

Edward Enninful30:29

of my life, really.

Presenter30:31

So Edward, I'm afraid I'm about to cast you away from all that. I'm going to send you off to our desert island. What about your practical skills, Edward? Your survival skills? How do you think you'd get on in this new environment, cast away from everything?

Edward Enninful30:44

I can't swim.

Presenter30:46

So you wouldn't be able to escape.

Presenter30:49

So you're stuck there, we got it.

Edward Enninful30:51

I can't cook. Okay.

Presenter30:52

But it likes But

Edward Enninful30:53

Shay?

Edward Enninful30:54

Well let's go. Get some fish out of the water.

Presenter30:54

So there's no

Presenter30:56

Okay.

Edward Enninful30:56

Uh

Presenter30:56

Uh

Edward Enninful30:57

Uh

Presenter30:57

Yeah?

Edward Enninful30:57

Yes, I'm fine.

Presenter30:58

Ah

Presenter31:00

Alright, well one more track before we cast you away, Edward Eninful. Your final disc today.

Edward Enninful31:04

Love Without Tragedy

Edward Enninful31:07

The Flip B-side Mother Mary by Rihanna. Rihanna is a dear friend of mine, and the reason why I love this song is when I was going through my retinal detachments and feeling lost, feeling forgotten, because I didn't work for two years. Rihanna would always call to check up on me and I would play this song because the lyrics are so beautiful. It reminded me of growing up in another place, and her voice was so soothing. And I remember one call we had, I just said to Rihanna, I think I'm forgot. Everyone's forgotten me. You know, depression is.

Speaker 131:41

Yeah.

Edward Enninful31:42

Very tough thing. And I've just and she said, You know what, Edward? I was working at W magazine at the time. She said, When you come out, we're going to do the most incredible cover.

Edward Enninful31:52

For W magazine, and we did this incredible cover with Rihanna as the Queen, which I dreamt laying there.

Presenter31:57

She was sort of dripping in jewels and this sort of jewelry. The graph, the crown.

Edward Enninful32:01

Pat McGrath with the Crown. And it really was a tribute to the woman who really kept my spirits up when I was feeling so down. So this is for Rhee, Love Without Tragedy, Mother Mary.

Speaker 132:17

Oh yeah, I see.

Presenter32:18

Ask you what's the matter? You say, Oh, it's nothing at all. Horse racing out of

Speaker 232:25

Yeah.

Speaker 232:27

Control, and you knew that I couldn't let it go. You used to be this boy I

Presenter32:34

I love and I used to be this girl of dreams Who knew the course of this It's one drive

Speaker 232:42

Injured us, fade away. You took the best gift.

Presenter32:49

Rihanna and Love Without Tragedy, Mother Mary. So, Edward Eninful, the time has come. I'm going to cast you away to the desert island. I'll give you the books to take with you. You can have the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and another book of your choice. What are you going to take with you?

Edward Enninful33:04

I'll take Isabel Wilkerson's Caste. She's a black American writer. It's about race in the world, hierarchy, the caste system around the world and how we survive.

Presenter33:16

You can also have a luxury item. I wonder what luxury means to you in the job that you do?

Edward Enninful33:21

Luxury for me is personal, anything that's personal. I have a pair of slippers made by McQueen and on one side there's an embroidery of Rue. This is your dog, your bottom dog. On the other side an embroidery of Alec, so they can be with me.

Presenter33:32

This is your dog, your bottom terrier.

Presenter33:36

Oh, but I love how personal that is, but also that, of course, they're also queen.

Edward Enninful33:42

Velvet.

Presenter33:43

P

Edward Enninful33:43

Not very practical.

Presenter33:44

A little bit of luxury there, why not?

Presenter33:48

And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves? The hardest question of all, maybe.

Edward Enninful33:53

Hardest question of all may be.

Edward Enninful33:56

I think I'll take Nina Simone's Strange Fruit.

Edward Enninful34:00

Even to this day when I hear it, it makes me want to do better.

Edward Enninful34:05

Really? So yes, I think it'll be strange fruit.

Presenter34:10

Edward Eninfall, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs.

Edward Enninful34:14

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's a dream come true.

Presenter34:30

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Edward. I'm very glad he's a sushi lover for his sake. We've cast away many people from the fashion world, including Catherine Hamnett, Xandra Rhodes, and Dame Vivian Westwood. You can hear those episodes on our Desert Island Discs programme archive and through BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Andy Garrett, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the actor Kate Blanchett. I do hope you'll join us.

Presenter35:17

Hello, I'm Anita Arnand and I'm hosting this year's BBC Wreath Lectures, which are on the subject of freedom. The lectures are inspired by Franklin D. Roosevelt's famous For Freedom speech. And this year, we have not one, but four speakers.

Speaker 235:33

We look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms. The first is freedom of speech and expression. The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way.

Presenter35:44

The third is freedom from want. The fourth is freedom from fear. A quartet of speakers examine what freedom means today, beginning with the best selling author Chimamanda Ngozi Adicio.

Speaker 135:56

Freedom of speech is, I think, essential to being human.

Presenter36:00

You can hear all the lectures on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. Just search for The Wreath Lectures.