Barry Hearn

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:42

My castaway is the sports promoter Barry Hearn. He's one of the most influential figures in sport from the last 40 years. His roster of champion boxers includes Anthony Joshua, Frank Bruno and Chris Eubank. And he's also transformed the fortunes of entire sports such as snooker and darts. Through his company, Matchroom Sport, he's turned the competitors into household names, packed out arenas and attracted millions of TV viewers. He played a key role in the snooker boom of the 80s with the help of the unassuming hero of the bays, Steve Davis, who he signed on a handshake. 40 years later, they remain best friends, self-described council house kids who made each other millionaires. Passion and egalitarianism are at the heart of his approach. He's put traditionally working class pursuits like boxing in the spotlight and won't promote a sport he doesn't personally enjoy, leading to a unique portfolio which also includes fishing and more recently table tennis. He says, The worst thing about me is that I'm probably the happiest person you've ever met. I just love every second of every minute of every hour of every day and I refuse to have bad days. Barry Hearn, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Barry Hearn1:53

Thank you.

Presenter1:55

Putting on an event is a very personal decision for you, isn't it, Barry?

Barry Hearn1:58

When I promote an event and this sounds dreadful, but it actually works I promote an event for me. So when I go into like the first time I walked into Circus Tavern to watch the darts, I'd never been before, and all I saw was eight hundred people having a few beers, smoking a cigarette.

Barry Hearn2:17

Having a bet with the local bookies and watching world-class sport played by ordinary people and I thought

Barry Hearn2:23

I absolutely bloody love this.

Presenter2:25

Bowie, you've made so much success out out of your business and changed people's lives. But people say that, that brings a lot of pressure with it. I know that this is a viewpoint that you don't have much truck with. You don't believe in pressure.

Barry Hearn2:35

You don't

Barry Hearn2:37

I think pressure is is only felt by those that fail. Pressure is an ingredient that we can't live without, not that we can't live with. It motivates us. But it's not something to be fearful of.

Presenter2:49

Okay, so it's not that you think it doesn't exist, it's that you think it's it's crucial.

Barry Hearn2:52

No, it does exist. It's the way you handle yourself in those pressure moments that differentiate what type of operator you are. Some people turn away from pressure, some people use it as an excuse. I've lost the sportsman, you know, I just couldn't cope with the pressure, and it's like, well, get another job then. So you have to be quite brutal because life itself is quite brutal. You know, we're not all lovely, lovely, nice people and jolly good chaps. This is the real world we're operating in. And my world has never been anything but real. So don't make excuses. Look in the mirror, tell yourself the truth.

Speaker 43:10

Hmm.

Presenter3:10

Yeah.

Presenter3:27

Well, Barry, the pressure's on now,'cause you're also going to share your desert island discs with us, and I know that this is a task you've taken very seriously.

Barry Hearn3:34

This has been weeks in the making.

Presenter3:37

Good. Good. We like that kind of commitment.

Barry Hearn3:39

Possibly inspection to detail.

Presenter3:40

Attention to detail. Tell us about your first.

Barry Hearn3:44

The Gambler by Kenny Rogers is the first song because the words are so appropriate to my life. There's time enough for counting when the dealing's done. In other words, just go for it the whole time. You don't stop to say, how have I done? How much am I worth? That's all irrelevant, isn't it? Time enough for counting when the dealing's done, says it all.

Speaker 44:04

Right.

Speaker 44:05

You got to know when the whole

Speaker 44:09

Know when to fall down

Speaker 44:12

No wind to walk away

Speaker 44:14

No when the run, you never count your money.

Speaker 44:19

When you're sitting at the table, there'll be time enough for counting.

Speaker 44:25

When the dealin's done.

Presenter4:32

Kenny Rogers and The Gambler. So Barry Hearn, you were born in Dagnum, East London, nineteen forty eight, the elder of two children. Your father, Maurice, was a bus driver and your mother, Barbara, was a cleaner. You've described her as the major factor in your success. So so tell me about her. What did you do to get you on your way?

Barry Hearn4:50

I think she was best described as a working-class snob.

Presenter4:54

Okay.

Barry Hearn4:54

So she always wanted the best for her kids, which is commendable, and she was very pushy and she wasn't someone that you disagreed with. My dad was ill most of his life and died when he was quite young, in his mid-40s. But my mother was the one that really pushed me and she was a disciplinarian. At the time, you know, horrendous things like she enrolled me quite early in the amateur dramatic society at school, which didn't go down too well with the other kids. I mean, I was in Burtock Brech plays when I was 13 and William Shakespeare stuff. I did loads. But she also put me in elocution lessons because she wanted me to speak proper. And as you can see, it hasn't really worked. But she was the one that told me at 12 years old, you're going to be a chartered accountant when you leave school. And she was the one that literally, from I suppose, 18 to 20, virtually locked me in my bedroom every night to make sure that I couldn't fail. Wow. And she gave me that discipline and that work ethic that has stuck with me ever since. So I owe her an enormous vote of thanks.

Presenter5:01

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 45:24

Or

Presenter5:24

Glacial.

Presenter5:47

As

Presenter5:54

Your mum was always trying to improve um your your family's lives herself as well. And I know that it was thanks to her that your parents were able to buy your first family home.

Barry Hearn5:57

Herself?

Barry Hearn6:02

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I was 17 when we first bought a house. We had a two-bedroom council house and I was sharing a bedroom with my sister. When I was 17, she was 15. We just had a wardrobe in between us. But that was, you know, kids don't feel poor, you know. We grow up in an environment that we get used to. It's only when you look around and you see what other people have got and you think, number one, why haven't I got that as well? And then number two is, what have I got to do to get it? When I saw I started a window cleaning round, a car washing round, things like that when I was about 13. And I went to the big houses at the top of the hill.

Barry Hearn6:42

I mean, I could probably buy the hill now, but at the time I thought one day, one day I'm going to have a car like this, and one day I'm going to have a house like this, and and I realized quite early, while I was pretty street smart, I was never going to be an academic.

Barry Hearn6:57

So the next best thing is to develop a work ethic that other people can't live with, and that's what I concentrated on.

Presenter7:04

Well, we'll come to that, Barry. For now, we need your second disc, if you would. What are we going to hear next?

Barry Hearn7:08

Blues Brothers, one of my favourite films of all time, but Sweet Home Chicago for me is the ultimate party song to get everyone going. And it reminds me of being with my kids in early days when they were growing up. And perhaps I wasn't the best dad. I didn't spend enough time with them, I think. I spent much more time with my grandchildren. But I can remember going to Disneyland and hearing the song Chicago Coming Round the Corner and the Blues Brothers car arrived. And I just feel the wonder and the awe of the big moment. My kids wanted to go on a ride. I said, Are you sure? I said, This is the Blues Brothers.

Speaker 47:46

Come on!

Speaker 47:47

Oh baby, don't you wanna go?

Speaker 47:53

Come on.

Speaker 47:55

A baby, don't you wanna go?

Speaker 48:00

Like to that same old bloody

Speaker 48:03

Sweet Home Chicago L.

Presenter8:10

The Blues Brothers and Sweet Home Chicago. Now, Barry Hearn, as we've heard, your mum was this dynamic character. Your dad was a contrast to that. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Barry Hearn8:21

Well I think not.

Barry Hearn8:22

Not his own fault really, I think. He had a severe heart problem. He had his first heart attack, I think, about 29. So he had several heart attacks until he eventually succumbed at sort of about 44. He wasn't a major influence in my life. He told me a couple of things that were related to his own condition, which has stood me in good stead. The biggest being, don't waste a second of your life. He didn't know how long he was going to last, and he didn't last very long, but I've kept that with me. I don't waste a moment.

Presenter8:33

Yeah.

Presenter8:49

You were twenty one when he died? What do you remember about that time?

Barry Hearn8:50

When he

Barry Hearn8:51

Yeah.

Barry Hearn8:53

I was playing cricket. I came home and they just said he's chased. I think he chased my sister around the kitchen, just dropped on the floor dead. So.

Barry Hearn9:01

It was sad, of course it was sad, but life goes on, and

Barry Hearn9:07

Your focus remains intact. I don't want to sound too hard, but at the time it was something I was waiting for to happen in a way. I've always been quite good at compartmentalizing my life. So I lock things away that I don't want to know about, that I don't want to think about, that might spoil my enjoyment selfishly of my life. So I have the ability to cope with any changing circumstances. In business, in life, I don't want anyone to know I have a weakness, so I keep it to myself because I'm a big enough man to cope with that.

Speaker 49:21

Yeah.

Presenter9:21

Uh

Presenter9:39

And you are working as an accountant at this point. How is it going?

Barry Hearn9:43

When you go to work at 18 and you're into a brave new world, do you realize that certain things are outside of your control or would seem to be outside of your control? You know, I was the youngest audit manager of a major firm of accountants, I think in their 200-year history. But I was told when I was made that, given that appointment, that was as far as I go. To be told at 23, that's as far as you go because of where you come from.

Presenter10:07

And that was because of what your because of your accent, your background, and

Barry Hearn10:09

Because if you're a

Barry Hearn10:11

Yeah, everything. And, you know, no money in the family, no school tie. And.

Presenter10:14

Uh

Barry Hearn10:16

It was, I can't use the language on this program that would went through my head. But basically, it was, that's fine. I'm going to use you. You're not going to use me. I will leave when I'm ready. I will further myself at my own timetable. And I don't give a monkey about what you think about it, because this is my selfish period. I'm doing this for me. That's the secret of my success, is that everybody thinks I'm a barra-boy, an East End Barra boy.

Barry Hearn10:46

The truth is, I'm also very smart.

Barry Hearn10:49

But I don't need to share that with everyone else,'cause it gives me an advantage. And in any t any sport you need an advantage. But you don't get it by setting out your stool to be so transparent that there's no secrets left. By the time people find out how good I am,

Barry Hearn11:06

I've already won.

Presenter11:08

Time for some more music. What have you chosen?

Barry Hearn11:11

It's Sunshine on My Shoulders by John Denver because it's just something that just lifts me every day because it just makes me feel good. And bear in mind, I'm already feeling good, then this adds something special.

Speaker 411:23

Sunshine on my shoulders makes me happy.

Speaker 411:36

Sunshine.

Speaker 411:39

In my eyes can make me cry

Speaker 411:49

Sunshine

Presenter11:50

Uh

Presenter11:50

Uh

Presenter11:51

On the wall

Presenter11:54

John Denver and Sunshine on My Shoulders. So Barry, you were a grammar school boy. You passed the Eleven Plus, went to your local grammar. Um, you were a good student. Did you enjoy school?

Barry Hearn12:05

I wanted to play sport all the time, which is what I did, cricket and football mainly. Every type of athletics you could think of. I did everything from the pole vault to the discus to the one mile sprint walk to fifteen hundred meters, and I never won one of them. I was second, third or fourth in every single discipline.

Presenter12:23

I mean, I'm laughing right now, especially when you're talking about the sprint walk, because I know that was a tactical choice.

Barry Hearn12:26

I know that was

Barry Hearn12:28

Because I wanted to win something. It was the only one that didn't have anyone's name down on the school list and I ended up getting disqualified in the Essex final because I got complacent and nonetheless.

Presenter12:34

This is why I'm going to go to the next one.

Presenter12:36

Oh, ironing.

Presenter12:38

The lifting is starting to jog, right?

Barry Hearn12:39

John, right? Because I I couldn't lose this race in particular. This was the Essex Championships. I'd won everything else leading up to it by a country mile. I could not possibly lose. And that's the day when you're at your most vulnerable.

Barry Hearn12:52

You know, that complacency kicks in. That's where I learnt that.

Presenter12:52

Complacency kicks.

Presenter12:56

So you weren't going to be a professional sportsman. Your mum, as we've heard, decided you were going to be an accountant. How did she break the news to you?

Barry Hearn13:02

She came home one day from cleaning this man's house and she said, I know exactly, I can see her saying it now, I know exactly what you're going to do when you grow up. And I'm like, what, 12, you don't even think about growing up, do you? What's that? She said, you're going to be a chartered accountant. And I said to her, oh, am I? I said, well, what do they do? She said, I've no idea. But the man whose house she cleaned told her that, and the quote was, which has lived with me ever since, was, you never see a poor one.

Presenter13:28

I mean the thing is, though, Barry.

Presenter13:30

Yes, I can see it. I can obviously see that you would have the brain for it and the drive for it, but you are such a big character.

Barry Hearn13:37

Hmm.

Presenter13:37

And that doesn't sit with the image of an accountant.

Barry Hearn13:40

I am an acquired taste because I've got so much opinion about myself and I've got so much mouth and that doesn't go down well in society sometimes especially when you're supposed to know your place. Well I didn't know my place and I didn't want to know my place and I was working for a big firm with lots of employees and I knew I was good but how did everyone else know? So I came across the idea of I'll go to work wearing a white suit. Cooper Brothers, one of the major firms of accountants, it was still obligatory to wear a bowler hat. Obligatory. So this is the world we're in.

Presenter14:13

So you're doing the full Saturday night fever?

Barry Hearn14:15

Absolutely. And I remember getting in a lift and a a lovely, lovely man called Alan McClintock, who was a senior partner of Thompson McClintock, and he looked over his half room glasses and says,

Presenter14:16

That works.

Barry Hearn14:26

Do you work for us?

Barry Hearn14:28

And I said, yes, Mr. McClintock, I'm in Secretary of Investment and Personal Services.

Barry Hearn14:34

Good Lord, he said. And that was the only word he said. And I treasured that moment because it represented the changing of the guard. And it actually said a lot about me and my character.

Presenter14:34

Yeah.

Presenter14:43

Mm-hmm.

Barry Hearn14:43

Because I did look ridiculous. But you know what? It worked. He never forgot me.

Presenter14:49

It's time for some more music, I think. Number four.

Barry Hearn14:51

What have you got? Well, years ago I came across this Irish singer called Finn Barfuri and his family, and a good friend of mine called Jeremy Beadle, you'll be aware of, sadly died.

Barry Hearn15:03

And Jeremy didn't believe in God, but he had a a gathering. And as I walked into the church I heard this song

Barry Hearn15:11

And I recognise it as the Lonesome Boatman. And Finn Barfuri was there with his penny whistle playing the song. And he came down the stairs of the church and he played the remainder of the song to Jeremy's coffin. And it was one of the most emotional things I've ever seen in my whole life. And I'll never forget it.

Presenter15:58

The Lonesome Boatman by Finn Barr and Eddie Fury. Barry Hearn, in nineteen seventy three, you became finance director for a fashion company called Derek Healy International. So was the fashion business a natural fit for you? You had the Saturday night fever suit? But

Barry Hearn16:10

Fit for you.

Barry Hearn16:14

No, I think that was the end of the day. A little bit later, yeah. I was the straight guy in a world that was changing. You know, we'd come out of the 60s, the hectic 60s, we're in the 70s. Don't realize sometimes we've all got chips on our shoulders, all of us, you know?

Presenter16:16

A little bit later, yeah.

Presenter16:29

Oh, so tell me about that. What did you discover?

Barry Hearn16:30

Well, I mean, I walked in there the first day and saw men wearing makeup.

Barry Hearn16:35

I smell marijuana in the, which I'd never smelled before in my life, because I'd never come across anything like this. And I was the guy that was doing the numbers. So I was the bloke in the shirt.

Presenter16:44

So they were the bohemians and that brought out a little chip on your shoulder, did it?

Barry Hearn16:47

On your shoulder, did it? I started boxing and things like that because I felt that I needed to get my frustrations out of everything and um yeah, it was just weird. But in a way I admired their creativity'cause I didn't have it. I knew my strength and my strength was the numbers, you know, when the numbers have always got me out of jail.

Presenter17:06

The company wanted to diversify, so you were charged with finding other businesses for it to invest in, and a chain of High Street billiard halls caught your eye. What were they like?

Barry Hearn17:16

Pretty shabby would be a a a compliment. They were washed, never decorated. People used to smoke all the time in those days, so the

Presenter17:24

So that yellow ceiling thing.

Barry Hearn17:25

Absolutely. And you couldn't see across the room, you know. I remember going into Lewisham, and the first day I walked in, there was a shotgun underneath table number one. And I said to the manager, there's a shotgun underneath that table. And he said, yes. There was four guys having a game of snook. I said, you better go and tell them. And he looked at me and he said, no, I'm not telling them. You go and tell them. I said, let's have a cup of tea and see what happens. And at the time we finished a cup of tea, they left. But this was all completely alien, you know.

Presenter17:53

The V V C's Snooker tournament, Pop Black, had started broadcasting in nineteen sixty nine, so that was a game changer for Snooker. It attracted huge audiences. You were at one of your halls in Romford, I think, when you were introduced to someone that you described as, back then, a gawky teenager, Steve Davis. What were your first impressions of him?

Barry Hearn18:12

He was he w a little nervous boy really never looked you in the face always looked at his shoes when he was talking and you know can I play in your suka event mister Erner Very rarely do people seriously concentrate just on being the best they can be which is what he did so I never told him what balls to pot and he never told me how to fill in his tax return.

Presenter18:33

The contrast between the two of you is so brilliantly illustrated by the footage that is still, you know, comes around quite a lot on T V of him winning in 1981 beating Doug Mountjoy at the World Championship. You running down through the auditorium to give him this massive bear hug after you're nearly sending him flying. He's in tears actually. He's kind of really emotional. And you're screaming, you're pumping your fist in the air.

Barry Hearn18:39

And quite a lot on T V.

Barry Hearn18:46

And then

Barry Hearn18:55

Hey, he's kinda

Barry Hearn18:59

I kept saying to myself, don't do anything stupid. I don't know why I knew that I was going to do something stupid, because it was such a big moment. I mean, we'd dreamed about it. We'd planned the speeches. I selfishly knew it was going to change my life. I needed a champion. It's all very well me being rent of mouth, but that doesn't do any good if you've got nothing to back it up with.

Barry Hearn19:18

Steve, he couldn't care less. He just wanted to play snooker. And that was his strength.

Presenter19:22

Both got your dream that day.

Barry Hearn19:23

And we both got our dream, and it changed both our lives. And I still can't believe that we're still mates, but we are.

Presenter19:30

I think we're b I have some music, Barry.

Barry Hearn19:31

Well, I think there's only one we've got to go for, isn't it?

Barry Hearn19:35

There was a time when we thinking, okay, we've we've had a touch, as they say in the East End, we've had a right touch. Suddenly, we're going to make a fortune, we're household names, and along the way I thought, we need a record. I remember Chas and Dave had done a really good record for Spurs Football Club, and I phoned up Chas, who I knew vaguely, and said

Barry Hearn19:54

Could you do me one earning for Snooker?

Barry Hearn19:56

And this is what came out.

Speaker 419:59

Snooker loopy nuts are we, me and him and them and me We'll show you what we can do With a load of balls and a snooker cue Fop the reds then, screw back For the yellow, green, brown, blue, pink and black Snooker loopy nuts are we We're all snooker, loopy

Presenter20:26

Snooka Loopy, Chas and Dave. Barry Hearn, you started your company in nineteen eighty two and began promoting sporting events, but later, during the recession, the T V money that's available for sport today just wasn't there at that time.

Barry Hearn20:40

82 was the first time I had something to lose and I managed to lose it very nicely and I lost not just what I'd made, which I thought was a fortune. I lost millions of pounds because I was an event. By then I was the PT Barnum in my head. I was an event man and some of the smaller stations were coming along that wanted events but didn't have any money and I wanted to promote events and I didn't care about the money. So I lost a lot.

Presenter21:06

So your heart was leading the way in those days.

Barry Hearn21:08

Well, it was a little bit. I mean, from my trips to the States in the fashion business, I'd seen the growth of ESPN and I see that's going to be the future of ESPN. American Sports Network. It was always going to come over. That sort of principle was going to come over. I was just a couple of years ahead of my time, as always, you know. Peaked too early. Yeah, well, a story in my life. But I knew I was right in the end, and it was just a question if you can stick in there long enough. But there was a few times when it was very touch and go.

Presenter21:16

The American Sports Network.

Barry Hearn21:35

Yeah.

Presenter21:35

You said that back then you were a chancel, how did the experience change you?

Barry Hearn21:40

I think I'm the most honest I've ever been in my life now,'cause I can't be bothered to tell lies. Also, as you get older, you can't remember the lies. You're better off telling the truth.

Presenter21:48

But you have said that back then, you know, in the early days, you used to lie all the time.

Barry Hearn21:50

Yeah.

Barry Hearn21:51

Yeah.

Presenter21:52

What kind of thing?

Barry Hearn21:53

Well, just to try and get a deal done, you know, you'd make you exaggerate more than lies, would you make things bigger? And there are times when you're a second hand car salesman, you know, you're trying to ramp up prices, you're trying to drive create competition where there isn't any. I mean

Presenter22:09

Can you give me an example?

Barry Hearn22:11

Crikey, I mean.

Barry Hearn22:13

Well, I remember the deal that saved me really was in 1989. I was on the rocks and I had an event starting in January that needed a sponsor. And I went to see Trust House 40, a man called Alan Hearn, no relation to me. I went to see him at his head office in Slough. It was Christmas Eve. If you compared me to a boxer, I was probably in round 10 or 11. And I really had had a good enough beating. It was probably time to jack it in. And I was beginning to think... I can still go back and be an accountant. And I went to see this guy to pitch this event. And I made up all sorts of stories about this event. I can't begin to tell you. This is the greatest thing you've ever seen. This is going to change your company, blah, blah, blah. Total rubbish. It was just another event, really. And he said, well, I've got no money. And I just said, go out with style. I said, well, Mr. Hearn, thank you for your time. And I hope you and your family have a wonderful Christmas and a happy new year. And I turned around to walk away and he said.

Barry Hearn23:07

But I've got hotel rooms. He said I'll give you three hundred thousand pounds of hotel rooms. And by the time I'd walked back to Slough station, I'd sold that three hundred thousand pound of hotel rooms to friends in the travel industry at a forty per cent. discount, and that hundred and eighty grand saved my business, and more importantly, it saved me.

Presenter23:25

It's time for your next piece of music, Barry. What have you chosen?

Barry Hearn23:28

When a young fighter who had amazing potential and incredible charisma walked into my life, changed it to an extent, drove me mad to an extent. But he came to my house one day and my wife Susan said, Eubank, because we never call him Chris, Eubank, this is your entry music, she said. And she played him Simply the Best by Tina Turner and he became a household name and a national treasure.

Speaker 423:59

Assembly the f

Speaker 424:14

I love that.

Speaker 424:18

Stop your heart.

Speaker 424:22

I hang on every word you say Chair's a ball

Presenter24:31

The Best by Tina Turner. So Barry Hearn, as we've heard, Chris Eubank walked into your life in nineteen eighty nine and he helped turn Matt Room's fortunes around. He had star quality from the off, so that wasn't something you had to manufacture or work on, was it?

Barry Hearn24:47

We worked on it together as a team because he was very creative as well. You know, he'd come in and say, What do you think about a monocle?

Barry Hearn24:54

What do you think about if I wear jodpers and I arrive at the press conference on uh on on a Harley Davidson? And it was a team effort, but he play he more than played his part.

Presenter25:04

It wasn't all fun and games around this time though, because you have said one of your biggest mistakes, which came a little bit later, was buying Leighton Orient football club. So nineteen ninety five, you paid

Barry Hearn25:11

Orient

Presenter25:17

A small sum?

Barry Hearn25:18

two pounds forty three.

Presenter25:20

£2.43 for the club. Unfortunately, that came along with a couple of million pounds debts that you took on as well.

Barry Hearn25:21

In for this

Barry Hearn25:25

Yeah, that's true.

Presenter25:27

Why did you decide to take it on?

Barry Hearn25:30

Do you know, it wasn't a mistake. Leighton and I were in trouble. The owner came to see me and said, You used to be a fan, would you and I went to see it and my memories just flooded back, standing there as an eleven year old and

Barry Hearn25:45

I don't know. And then all of a sudden I've I felt this strange mixture of my heart and my wallet merging. And I had nineteen years there of aggravation, frustration, grief.

Barry Hearn25:57

Conflict, and I don't regret one hour.

Presenter26:01

You sold the club in twenty fourteen. Was it a wrench to let go?

Barry Hearn26:05

Not by the I I think it just came to a certain stage where I

Barry Hearn26:08

Enough was enough. Football is such a poorly run business overall. It's

Presenter26:14

You don't think they invest enough in in grassroots?

Barry Hearn26:17

No, nowhere near and government, no government control, Premier League looking after themselves, etc., etc., which is fine, but it's a fundamentally flawed business.

Presenter26:26

So as you've said, you need to be a billionaire to to own a football club.

Barry Hearn26:29

Yeah, I mean, when I started off, you needed to be a multi-millionaire and I probably got in on that one. But what is a win in football? For me, it had to be to get to the Premier League. And I wasn't going to do it. And if I did it, I'd have to risk everything I had and I wasn't prepared for my family to risk that.

Presenter26:44

And how much of a problem is that in in sports across the board? I mean, Newcastle United, backed by money from Saudi Arabia, that's brought them in for a lot of criticism. You know, match room of work with Saudi, you know, from you guys' perspective. How much thought do you give that? How much

Speaker 226:53

Yeah.

Barry Hearn26:53

You know

Barry Hearn26:56

You know, from you guys' perspective.

Barry Hearn26:58

We give a huge amount of thought to it, but at the end of the day, and it's an easy cop-out, by the way, we are representing our clients and our job is to maximise their financial returns. To take a fight like Anti-Joshua fight, for example, to Saudi Arabia means that my client will earn three times what he would earn normally. And I can't deny him that opportunity.

Presenter27:21

And you don't have any qualms about the the human rights.

Barry Hearn27:23

And I see.

Barry Hearn27:24

I don't even cons again, I compartmentalize it.

Presenter27:27

So you think what as long as if it's legal, it it goes ahead?

Barry Hearn27:31

If it's yes, at the moment it's not legal, you you you obey the law. But at the moment, the the hypocrisy that's involved with, for example, Saudi, when a g our government are selling them arms. So I just say the world's not a perfect place, we'll get on with it.

Presenter27:47

It's time for disc number seven. What are you taking next?

Barry Hearn27:50

Every now and again we throw some grape parties.

Barry Hearn27:54

And I couldn't finish eight songs without what I think is the ultimate party ending song of all time.

Presenter28:01

So this is the end of the night.

Barry Hearn28:02

This is the end of the night when you are much the worse for wear, where the shirt is damped through the energetic

Barry Hearn28:09

Dance moves, which I always say the two things that as you get older, two things you mustn't do. You mustn't fight and you mustn't dance, because you look ridiculous doing either. But I am tempted every now and again when this comes on to give it one last go. It's Don McLean, American Pi.

Presenter28:18

Do neither.

Speaker 428:27

I was a lonely teenage bronkin buck With a pink carnation and a pickup truck But I knew I was out of luck

Speaker 428:39

The music died.

Speaker 428:42

I started singing Bye, buying this American pie Drove my Chevy to the levee, but the levee was dry. Them good old boys were drinking whiskey and rye, and singing this'll be the day that I die.

Speaker 428:58

This'll be the day that I die.

Presenter29:01

Don McLean and American Pie. So Barry Hearn, we talked about the heart problems that run in your family and unfortunately you you've been through them yourself. You've had two heart attacks. I think the the latest was April twenty twenty.

Barry Hearn29:13

Yeah, so far, two and counting. Yeah.

Presenter29:15

Yeah, yeah. I mean hopefully that's it, but

Barry Hearn29:17

Well, we'll deal with whatever Goodlord throws at us.

Presenter29:21

Okay, Barry, here's the thing. You're supposed to have retired.

Barry Hearn29:23

Yeah, well no I'm not good at this. This is the worst part of the inter

Presenter29:25

This is a worse part of the world. This is what I'm trying to nudge you towards. Is the fact that.

Barry Hearn29:27

Due to the mm-hmm is the fact that

Presenter29:29

You know, last year you handed over the chairmanship of Matchroom Sports to your beloved son, Eddie. You are still its president. Your daughter Katie works for the business. She's right in there.

Barry Hearn29:32

Mushroom sports to you.

Speaker 229:33

Uh

Barry Hearn29:34

Yeah.

Barry Hearn29:38

She's right.

Presenter29:39

It doesn't sound like you are leaning into retirement with the joy and relief.

Barry Hearn29:39

Yeah.

Barry Hearn29:44

I am trying so hard. Honestly, I know it doesn't sound like it. And everyone thinks it is just so difficult when something's been such a major part of your life for 45 years.

Presenter29:44

Bye.

Barry Hearn29:54

To j I mean, I can't just walk away. I am seriously trying hard. I am playing a lot more cricket, playing a little bit more golf and doing a lot more fishing, which has always been the relaxation of my life. But in between that, there's a businessman that still wants to beat last year's figures, and I can't help it.

Presenter30:12

Are you about ready to be cast away, Barry? I mean, you're going to be doing plenty of fishing on the island, which is good, but for someone who, you know, has so many great relationships, so close to your family, plays so much sports, you'll miss it on the island, won't you?

Barry Hearn30:25

Not really. Not really. You see, you can't change the cards you're dealt. What you can do is make the best of the cards. So if someone puts you on a desert island,

Barry Hearn30:37

Do you make the most of what that desert island's got to offer?

Presenter30:40

Well, one more track before we send you there. Or to your final choice today.

Barry Hearn30:42

Yeah.

Barry Hearn30:44

Tom Paxton is a man I've followed his career since I think 1967 when he opened at the Isle of Wight, the first Isle of Wight Festival. Since 1967, I've pretty well seen him most years when he comes over to tour, but on my 70th birthday, I went out with my son and some friends, came back to my house, and we had a wonderful dinner of 30 of my closest friends and family.

Barry Hearn31:09

And in the background I suddenly heard this song being played from a marquee in my back garden.

Barry Hearn31:16

and Tom Paxton had been flown in by my children to entertain me for an hour and a half.

Barry Hearn31:22

in what became the greatest day of my life.

Barry Hearn31:25

And the song, of course, is a humorous version of taking the mick out of the American burial system and how they rip you off right to the end. And it's called Forest Lawn. So enjoy it, because it's in my will that this song will be played at my funeral.

Speaker 431:43

Oh lay me down in forest lawn in a silver casket Put golden flowers over my head In a silver basket

Speaker 431:53

Let the drum and bugle core Bloat taps while cannons roar Let sixteen liveried employees Pass out souvenirs from the funeral store I want to go simply when I go

Speaker 432:08

And they'll give me a simple funeral there, I know.

Speaker 432:13

Away the caskets

Presenter32:14

Tom Paxton and Forest Lawn. So it's time, Barry Hearn. I'm going to cast you away to the island. Of course, I'll give you the books to take with you: the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and one other book of your choice. What have you gone for?

Barry Hearn32:26

Well, there's only one and this was such a simple decision, and it's The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway.

Barry Hearn32:33

It's a story of an old man that comes to terms with himself.

Barry Hearn32:36

and what's really important to him.

Presenter32:39

You can also have a luxury item, what will that be?

Barry Hearn32:42

My fishing rod because the only time I really turn off is when I stand there on my own with a fishing rod.

Barry Hearn32:51

Maybe a rocking chair, maybe just sit on the grass.

Barry Hearn32:55

Clarity of mind follows and every decision I have to make is so much easier than by the river.

Presenter33:02

Well, on the basis that you're not going to use it for practical purposes, I like this idea of mindfulness, so I'm going to allow it. I'll even throw in the rocking chair for you.

Barry Hearn33:11

Well listen, I appreciate that and of course behind your back I will cheat and catch fish and eat them as well.

Presenter33:16

I thought you were in your honest period. Oh, you are going to be sent to this island in a minute. It's just as well. Finally, Barry, which one of the eight tracks that you've shared with us to day would you rush to save from the waves?

Barry Hearn33:30

I want to feel good about myself and my life and the hand I've been dealt, so I've got two of those Take Sunshine on My Shoulders by John Denver.

Presenter33:39

Barry Hearn, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Barry Hearn33:42

It's been an absolute honour.

Presenter34:04

Hello, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Barry. I can only pray that he sticks to mindful fishing. We've cast away many sports people, including the boxing promoter Frank Warren, the boxer Nicola Adams, tennis player Sue Barker, and Barry's good pal, Steve Davis. You can find these episodes in our Desert Island Discs programme archive and through BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Tim Heffer, the assistant producer was Natalia Fernandez, and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the director, Basil Ehrman. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 234:52

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Speaker 235:05

I'm Tim Harford and in my new Radio 4 podcast, Understand the Economy, I'm taking you back to basics. I'm going to explain all the complex financial terms you're hearing in the news as clearly as I can. Inflation, interest rates, growth, bonds, banks, I'll explain it all. Search for Understand the Economy, available now on BBC Sounds.