Lyse Doucet

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:42

My castaway this week is Lise Dousette. She's made it her life's work to bring the stories of people at the sharp end of war, protest and political turmoil to millions as the BBC's chief international correspondent for the past decade and a reporter for almost 40 years. Her reports, most notably from Afghanistan, have earned her global recognition, along with an OBE and an Order of Canada, one of the highest honours her home country can bestow. She was born and raised in a large Catholic family in a small town in Eastern Canada, where the values of kindness and community went on to inform her work as a journalist. The human cost of war is what interests her, and when she arrives in a place, she embeds herself in the lives of the local people.

Presenter1:27

In two thousand and two she went from guest to reporter in a heartbeat when an assassination attempt on her friend, the former Afghan President Hamid Karzai, took place at a family wedding.

Presenter1:38

Of the risks that come with her job, she says No story is worth dying for, but there are stories worth taking risks for. We have to protect our lives, but we also have to protect our journalism. These stories matter. They have to be told. Lise Dussette, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Lyse Doucet1:57

What an honour to be here

Presenter1:59

So, thank you for joining us. I mean, even though, Lise, your work involves reporting on wars and their aftermath, you never describe yourself as a war correspondent. Why not?

Lyse Doucet2:10

I don't want to be defined by war. Everyone I know who's lived in war w wants nothing more than to get out of war. And I also don't want to think that my life of travel has been a life of going from one conflict to the other. It's been a life of ups and downs, of light and dark, of humor and happiness.

Lyse Doucet2:30

And so I don't want to be defined by that horrible three-letter word war.

Lyse Doucet2:36

Yeah.

Presenter2:36

There's another important distinction that you make that perhaps follows that first idea, and that's your thought that international news is no longer foreign. That's important to you. Tell me more about that.

Lyse Doucet2:48

Where is the Syrian story or the Afghan story or the Iraqi story? It's down our street and the families who've moved in. It's in our schools where children of different ancestries all learn together. I always say about these stories of our time that even as in the most complicated and complex story, if you drill down, what are they in essence? In essence, they are about mothers and fathers and streets and neighborhoods and societies and these kind of human stories they cross borders.

Presenter3:23

Lise, it's time for your first disc today. What have you chosen, and why are you taking it with you?

Lyse Doucet3:28

It's called Habibi Nurulain, which means in Arabic, my dear, the light of my eye. And it was first released in the mid-90s when I was living in Jerusalem. And it lit up the dance floor. It was just after the signing of an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal, the Oslo Accords in 1993. And while it wasn't perfect, it held up the possibility of peace. And I can still feel that moment of being on the dance floor with Palestinians, with Arabs, and sometimes Israelis too, all coming together with the beauty and the energy of dance. And for a young generation, it was such an exciting time.

Speaker 44:06

Habibiya Murilayniya Ser Kijkaye.

Speaker 44:33

Uh

Presenter4:37

Habibi Yanur Ulain by Amru Diyab

Presenter4:40

Lister Set, you've covered the turbulent story of Afghanistan since you first went out there for the BBC in 1988, and you described the country as a second home where you have very close friends.

Presenter4:52

What are your personal feelings about what's happening there today following the withdrawal of American troops last August?

Lyse Doucet4:59

Painful.

Lyse Doucet5:01

Very painful.

Lyse Doucet5:04

My pain, of course, is only of consequence to me and my closest friends and

Lyse Doucet5:09

I don't want to say that there aren't Afghans who support the Taliban. This is a very conservative country.

Lyse Doucet5:18

But this was not just a leaving of a country, a journey. This was a leaving of.

Lyse Doucet5:25

for so many Afghans, leaving of themselves behind so much of who they were, what they had worked for, and who they wanted to be. In all of my years of reporting, I've never seen this kind of a situation. And now this is what's happening in Afghanistan. Not a day goes by without a new message arriving in my email, in my whatever social media platform, asking for help.

Lyse Doucet5:54

uh to leave the country.

Presenter5:57

And how do you deal with that?

Lyse Doucet5:59

No, not well. It's obviously our job is only as journalists to report, but for so many of us, these aren't just stories, they're part of our lives. The people we report on, report with, have been part of our lives for decades. And so we don't just report these stories. We feel these stories. They're our story as well. And I'm torn because Afghanistan also needs its best and brightest. And some are staying. And they're distributing food to those who would starve if they didn't have people, kind people, to help them. Women who are still taking to the streets. You know, high school students, especially girls and boys, who want to be educated. They want to go to university. They don't want to feel the world has abandoned them.

Lyse Doucet6:52

You know, I want Afghanistan to survive, but I also want

Lyse Doucet6:56

Many Afghans near and dear to me to survive as well. It's early days, it's early days. This too.

Lyse Doucet7:02

Shall pass, this too shall pass.

Presenter7:06

And did watching your friends leave the country change your own views about belonging?

Lyse Doucet7:10

Um

Presenter7:11

Yeah.

Lyse Doucet7:11

I have come to believe that the word home is one of the most evocative, the most powerful, the most beautiful words in the English language. And I felt it when I came back from months in Afghanistan. And I went home in a way that so many of my Afghan friends I knew knew that possibly they would never go home. And I went to my home, my little town on the Bay de Chaleur, the Chaleur Bay, the Bay of Heat, on the eastern corner of Canada, and I was overwhelmed by the beauty of the landscape.

Lyse Doucet7:49

but also just washed in gratitude. I can come home. It didn't matter that there'd been a Federal election in Canada. It didn't matter who was in power or not. I had the right to go home.

Presenter8:03

Let's

Lyse Doucet8:03

See it just

Presenter8:03

Disc b

Lyse Doucet8:04

Uh

Presenter8:04

Number two, what's it going to be and why have you chosen it?

Lyse Doucet8:07

Well, this takes us in a completely different direction. This is called Passionate Kisses. We've heard about the passion of journalism, but there are other passions in life. And this is by Mary Chapin Carpenter, an American singer. And the lyrics really spoke to me. This was released in the 1990s. You know, is it too much to demand? I want a full house and a rock and roll band, pens that won't run out of ink, and cool and quiet, and times to think. And women, often women, foreign correspondents, you have choices to make about what matters to you in your life, relationships versus the life that you're rather nomadic life that you're living. And of course, we all want to think that in some way, in some way, we can have it all. Even if we have to redefine what all is, we should try to have what matters to us.

Speaker 48:56

Is it too much to ask I want a comfortable bed though it hurt my bad?

Speaker 49:03

Food to fill me up and warm clothes and all that stuff.

Speaker 49:10

Shouldn't I have kissed? Shouldn't I have kiss? Shouldn't I have all of this passionate kisses?

Speaker 49:20

Passionate kisses woman Passionate kisses

Presenter9:28

Mary Chapin Carpenter and passionate kisses. Lise Dusset, let's go back to the beginning of your own story then. You were born in Bathurst, New Brunswick, which is on the east coast of Canada, a little town there. Everyone's waiting at googling now.

Presenter9:43

They'll find it. Um what are your memories of the place and of

Lyse Doucet9:44

Um what do you

Lyse Doucet9:47

Growing up there.

Presenter9:47

Yeah.

Lyse Doucet9:48

You were proudly connected to your family, but you were also connected to your community. And I grew up with a very strong fam rooted in a very strong family, six kids, three boys, three girls. And I think this is what has anchored me, not just think, I know this is what has anchored me to allow me to go so far away is because I have something very strong which keeps me rooted.

Presenter10:15

Your background, Lise, is a mix of cultures, including Irish and also Acadian on your father's side. Now the Acadians were French settlers who arrived on the east coast of Canada in the 17th century and they were actually deported by the British at the height of the Seven Years' War. It was a very violent deportation in which thousands of people died. And as an adult you researched the history of the Acadians. What did you think when you discovered more about their extra

Lyse Doucet10:41

Experience. Their story was a story of defeat, of sadness, of loss of families, loss of identities. But fast forward to where we are now, and August the 15th is a day of celebration of the Akkadian people because over the centuries they did come back, they came back to their lands. And the Akkadians now have a national day, they have an anthem, they have a flag. And coincidentally, for me, August 15th is also the day that Kabul, Afghanistan, fell to the Taliban. And I say now that tragedies can over time be turned into a revival of what was lost. And I've really come to admire what the Akkadian people have. I think it's historically, it's a huge, huge achievement and one that I'm very proud of. I'm not, my family doesn't speak French. You describe us an assimilated family, even though some of my aunts and uncles do speak French. But I thought my name is Lise Doucette. These are both French names. So I've learned French because it's part of who I am.

Presenter11:48

Audiences often get in touch asking about your accent, Lise, especially at the beginning of your your career when you were broadcasting from West Africa. I think you even had to explain it on air. What did that involve?

Lyse Doucet12:00

Oof.

Presenter12:00

Yeah.

Lyse Doucet12:00

I would have to go on the program, which at the time took listeners' questions. And so there was, I think, the last time I did it, they said, you have an Acadian ancestry. And so I said, yes, it's my Acadian revenge. They didn't give us our land back, but they gave me a job. And I got letters from Acadians from around the world, including someone who said, Lee, you're the Celindian of broadcasting. And of course, that's so far-fetched, but it was a nice compliment.

Presenter12:25

It was a nice

Presenter12:27

I think it's time for disc number three. Sadly, not Celine. You've got something else for us. What have you chosen? What's your next selection today?

Lyse Doucet12:34

It's from by Lenny Gallant, who is from Prince Edward Island, which is a neighboring province to my own. And it celebrates that rich heritage of my region, which of course is a canvas both of a sometimes painful history, but also a canvas of many, many different cultural influences. The indigenous people, predominantly Mi'kmaq, the Acadian people.

Lyse Doucet12:59

The Celtic influences, Irish and Scottish. My brother a few years ago sent this song. He went to a Leni Galant concert and he sent it to all of us and he said, all his siblings and said, This reminds me of growing up in Bathurst, New Brunswick. So this is searching for Abergwaite.

Speaker 413:16

Uh

Lyse Doucet13:16

Uh Jing.

Speaker 413:16

Yeah.

Speaker 413:19

Searching for Evan.

Speaker 413:22

Kira May in your arm

Speaker 413:25

A family we come home

Speaker 413:28

Searching for ammonia.

Speaker 413:30

Searching for Avenue.

Speaker 413:34

Shelter us from the storm.

Speaker 413:37

It's all safe and warm.

Speaker 413:40

From Waxburg, Tyrone and I We came here to escape the loss.

Presenter13:47

Lenny Gallant and Searching for Abergwaite. Lisa said, Your father Clarence was a supervisor at the local paper mill. What are your memories of him?

Lyse Doucet13:56

I think for many men of his generation, that work is what defines them. And we were laughing about how when my father had to do his report, like everything had to come to a standstill. Your father's doing his report, you know, stop playing that music, stop standing in the hallway looking at yourself in the mirror. But he was a very loving father, and he did make time to some family holidays, everyone piling in the back of a light green station wagon and going to see Anne of Green Gables and Prince Edward Island. And then my mother, who really was the rock of the household, she, I love listening to my mother's stories and how she tells about that, you know, how she had to fight for her education, her mother, Lillian, saving money, borrowing money, but even like hiding a bit of the money she made from selling the butter from the farm so her daughters would get educated as well as her sons. And my mother, after she finished high school, went and worked at a bank. And then

Lyse Doucet14:56

She became a mother and she poured her heart and soul into it. And I I have to say, I do meet too many women who say that they grew up with their mothers' pressures and expectations. And my mother always was, Whatever you do is is fine. You know, if you whatever your grades are, that's good enough. You did you did well.

Presenter15:17

Yeah.

Presenter15:18

You loved learning, though, so she didn't have to push you much, did she?

Lyse Doucet15:22

I still remember you you have these snapshots in your mind of running down the street to the local corner store run by the family called Asifs, and I didn't know growing up, I only found out decades later that the family was from Lebanon. You know, we thought they had interesting food and interesting names, but we never knew then, like, where is Lebanon? But I remember, you know, on my tippy toes, going up and pointing and getting a little notebook with the crests of all the provinces and territories in Canada. And so that's for me, for me, journalism is also just continuing my education of the world.

Lyse Doucet15:55

Time for

Presenter15:55

Disc number four then is

Lyse Doucet15:57

Police, what's your next choice?

Lyse Doucet16:00

This song, Annie's Song, it's my mother's favorite song. And I'd like to think, I can see when I, you know, slam open the door when I come back from school, she's sitting at her sewing machine while her kids are all at school. And in those moments of quiet, I'd like to think that my mother was listening to Annie's song.

Speaker 416:21

You fill up my senses like night in a forest.

Speaker 416:30

Like the mountains in springtime Like a walk in the rain

Speaker 416:40

Like a storm in the desert Like a sleepy blue ocean

Presenter16:51

John Denver and Annie Song. I want to ask about your first break, Lise, how you took your first steps into journalism. So you finished university in 1982 and you joined a volunteer agency called Canadian Crossroads International. I think it was them that put you on a placement to the Ivory Coast in West Africa and it was at a small private school and you said that it was an experience that changed your life being there. In what way?

Lyse Doucet17:15

I it's such a good I started in the v like a village, living in the village and being part of the village. It was such a good way to to start, to be part of the heat and dust of of that community.

Speaker 117:26

Uh

Presenter17:30

It also sharpened up the the questions that you asked, I think. There was a particular incident, and this is something that you've gone on to do, making uh an effort to talk to the women in uh a community. And there was one incident, I think, uh where you were pounding yams or the women in the village were pounding yams, and you were asking them questions and and

Speaker 417:46

It's a hierarchy.

Speaker 417:47

Current in Young

Lyse Doucet17:48

Uh

Presenter17:50

They completely turned around what you were thinking.

Lyse Doucet17:53

Yeah.

Lyse Doucet17:53

One day in you know, in the village, Adzopay, what a great name, Adzope, they were pounding and pounding, and I think, Oh my god, it takes such a lot of effort. And I said to one of the girls, I said,

Lyse Doucet18:03

Wouldn't you like to have another kind of life? And she kept pounding the yams and you know, it was in front of Sauvaux Vremont sit in question stupid. What a stupid question. Why would you ask and why would I answer that question? Because I can't have another life. And it was my first rush with being told, like, hey, journalists, you know, try to understand better the society, to understand what it is, how we live, and what matters to us, and what can change for us. Now, I'd like to think that a lot of people in societies where I visit, that those do want change. But this was my first rude awakening. And come on, get better with your questions.

Presenter18:44

Let's have some more music, Lise. Number five. What's it gonna be?

Lyse Doucet18:49

The Korra. It's played in the Sahel countries of West Africa. The Sahel is a belt which goes right across the African continent between the deserts of the north and the humid savannahs. When I hear the Korah, my heart soars. It brings me back to those landscapes. And one of the albums, the LPs I used to listen to when I lived in West Africa, was called Ancient New Strings with Tumani Diapate, who's one of the great masters of the Korra, with Balakai Sisako. Both of them are from Mali. And this is called Bilamban.

Presenter20:24

Bilambam, Toumani Jabate and Balakai Sisoko.

Presenter20:30

Lise to set, you worked for the BBC in West Africa for several years, and in nineteen eighty nine you became the broadcaster's Afghanistan and Pakistan correspondent. You'd taken your first trip to Afghanistan the previous Christmas. What do you remember about it?

Lyse Doucet20:47

I still remember going to the the desk of the hotel. And this, of course, was a harsh winter. It was the Cold War when Soviet troops were in Afghanistan. And in this hotel lobby there was no one else there. It was dimly lit. And I can still see the

Lyse Doucet21:04

The receptionist on the other side saying, and how long will you stay? And I thought, well, is it going to be six days, six weeks?

Lyse Doucet21:12

And I think I said six weeks, but of course here I am.

Presenter21:16

Yeah.

Lyse Doucet21:16

And was it

Presenter21:16

Was it the story? Was it the country? Was it the people that kept you going back?

Lyse Doucet21:22

It's just in the warp and weft of life that sometimes countries cross our path and their path our paths become the same.

Presenter21:30

Did you ever feel at a disadvantage working as a female journalist?

Lyse Doucet21:36

No. In my case, I was working in predominantly Muslim countries at the time where they do see women as people to be protected. For journalists, it translates into giving you privileges. And of course, sometimes those are privileges you don't want. So you're in a rusty helicopter flying over the Hindu Kush when you're worrying about rockets and mujahideen in the mountains, and they give you the front seat. There is you sit in the front and think, oh, thanks. Or you get the front seat of the bus. People take care of you, and maybe they see you as less threatening. But also, again, it's hard, isn't it? That army chiefs of staff, soldiers, leaders, they pour their part and soul to you because they see you as a they don't have, aside from their family, obviously they don't meet women, and there you are to someone to listen, and they will, you know, they tell you, share their story.

Presenter22:24

Daniel.

Presenter22:26

Yeah.

Presenter22:27

You became a friend of Hamid Karzai, the former President of Afghanistan, and, as I mentioned earlier, you found yourself caught up in an assassination attempt on him at a family wedding in Kandahar in two thousand and two.

Presenter22:40

Two young men approached the President, one to pay his respects, but the other opened fire. How do you remember the incident?

Lyse Doucet22:49

There we were, and that it's so hard now these days to have exclusives, but there we were exclusive, you know, exclusive. And the BBC security people called up and said, Lise, were you wearing your flak jacket, body armor? I said, Well, no, I was at a wedding. You don't wear a flak jacket to a wedding, which has reminded me that sometimes these risks happen when you least expect them. But it's an interesting example that President Karzai thought that it had been his American bodyguards who saved him. But when we were finally flew back to Kabul in the dead of night,

Lyse Doucet23:21

He watched the BBC report in the morning and saw that it had actually been an Afghan boy, because that boy who loved the President.

Lyse Doucet23:28

jumped on the other boy who was firing the gun,

Lyse Doucet23:31

The boy was k killed, but he stopped the assassination attempt, so he was the hero. So it changed the narrative. Instead of it being Hamid Karzai saved by American bodyguards, although they did play a role, it was Hamid Karzai saved by a brave Afghan boy.

Presenter23:48

It's time for your next disc, Lise. What's it gonna be?

Lyse Doucet23:53

Well, it's called An Elegy for the Arctic, and it's by one of our most brilliant pianists of our time, the Italian pianist and composer Ludovico

Lyse Doucet24:04

It was done for Greenpeace. It was filmed in the Arctic and my sister Andrea introduced me.

Lyse Doucet24:09

To his music, and you can hear not just the music of.

Lyse Doucet24:14

a piano, but the music of nature telling us help, help

Lyse Doucet24:20

in our climate crisis of our time. Elegy for the Arctic.

Presenter25:23

Elegy for the Arctic Ludovico Ainaudi

Presenter25:26

Lister said, in twenty eleven you began reporting on the civil war in Syria. Now you've described it as a war on childhood, and you've made many powerful films featuring children from all sides. Does the story that the children tell cut to the heart of what's happening in a different way?

Lyse Doucet25:45

What was happening time and again after I'd finished a Syria trip, and I'd think back.

Lyse Doucet25:51

about what was staying with me, what touched me the most, what were the stories of courage, because there was always so many. And more often than not it was a child who had stood up, spoke out, did something brave,

Lyse Doucet26:05

They were able to articulate and tell these stories themselves. I mean, children often feature in our stories as they should, but sometimes they're there.

Lyse Doucet26:14

Because you know, their expressions, you know, the look of the children, they're so innocent.

Lyse Doucet26:20

But I you know, I d I remember it was a sort of it was a a change in my approach to journalism. I thought we should tell their stories, but allow them to tell the stories uh themselves.

Presenter26:30

And you have said about your role in the past. I don't believe in emotional broadcasting, but I do believe in empathy. Tell me about the distinction.

Lyse Doucet26:39

Yeah.

Lyse Doucet26:40

My feeling is that getting emotional is not really part of our broadcasting. Sometimes it just happens and it's part of the story. There was a story they did from Afghanistan. I was at the airport, I was interviewing a journalist and she was in tears and you could tell my voice, it was caught in my throat, that I was also finding it really, really difficult.

Lyse Doucet27:00

So I don't believe in emotional, because that means you sort of lost control of your storytelling.

Lyse Doucet27:07

But empathy I absolutely believe in.

Lyse Doucet27:10

Although people we get so many people emailing or messaging us, oh, you're taking sides, you're this biased, whatever. You know, I believe it's ingrained in all of us that we don't take sides in our reporting. But I feel no hesitation in taking the side of the people, the children in Syria who were targeted, tortured, traumatized. And I do see my job as a journalist to try to feel a little bit about what they are going through. They are no different from you or I. Put ourselves in other people's shoes.

Presenter27:42

Lise, let's take a break for some music. It's your seventh choice today. What is it, and why are you taking it with you to the island?

Lyse Doucet27:49

The next song I want to play is called Here and Now, and it was composed by my brother-in-law Derek Roach, who's a brilliant musician. He plays many instruments, and the backup vocals are by a Canadian singer named Cathy Evans. And it was composed at my window on the bay where we grew up, Chaleur Bay, Bay de Chaleur.

Lyse Doucet28:13

It's a lovely tribute to life.

Speaker 428:15

Early morning waiting on a sunrise Sipping on a cup of cold tea

Speaker 428:22

Hoping to find a way for me to just be

Speaker 428:29

Grass is blowing softly by the window Yellow flowers growing in between

Speaker 428:37

The sky is everywhere clearer than I've ever been

Presenter28:42

Here and Now by Derek Roach. Leasty said, What about getting back to that place, adjusting to normality once you're home, especially if you've been witness to something or experienced something traumatic? How do you do that?

Lyse Doucet28:56

Yeah.

Presenter28:56

Yeah.

Lyse Doucet28:57

things stay with you, but I think it's important to

Lyse Doucet29:01

We have to take care of ourselves too in the same way we try to take care of other people. And for me, this was after Afghanistan, after months there.

Lyse Doucet29:08

I did go home. I did go by the water's edge and spend time with my family, getting up and going to bed with the s the sound of the waves, the the birds on being there for the first snow, playing cards with my aunts and uncles, to really remind ourselves of the way that life should be and the way that it should be for so many people who live with longing, that it should be that day one day for them.

Presenter29:33

your job is unpredictable, all consuming. You know, you described it earlier as a nomadic life. Have you had to make sacrifices in your in your personal life so that you can follow the career that you so love?

Lyse Doucet29:47

I think it's important not to live with regret along the way. There have been choices, relationships which didn't work out, or proposals which I entertained, but then life took different turns. But the way it's worked out for me is it's worked out in a way that I'm happy with. I live constantly bathed in the sense of gratitude, gratitude for

Lyse Doucet30:17

The life that I live, the friends that I have, the people who love me, and I love them in return. I'm constantly reminded of how.

Lyse Doucet30:27

Gratitude is so much a part of of who I am.

Presenter30:32

I'm about to cast you away to our desert island, of course, Lise. What approach will you take to building a life there, I wonder?

Lyse Doucet30:38

Yeah.

Presenter30:38

Uh

Lyse Doucet30:39

Many years ago, I started meditating. I think it's very important to find calm in the midst of the storms and to try to be curious, explore the island.

Lyse Doucet30:52

Find ways to embrace the day and live it your best day every day.

Lyse Doucet30:58

Yeah.

Presenter30:58

One more piece of music before you go, what's it going to be?

Lyse Doucet31:03

This is a piece of music, I have to confess. I still can't really listen to it without.

Lyse Doucet31:08

Crying. It's called Dawn. It was composed by a sixteen year old Afghan cellist, Mina Karimi. She's now studying at Interlock and Arts Academy in the United States. The piece was arranged and conducted by her fellow classmate.

Lyse Doucet31:22

20-year-old at the time, Afghan pianist Arsan Fahim. He's now studying in Boston.

Lyse Doucet31:28

What also intrigued me is that he and Mina decided that this piece which about women's rights would be incomplete because the story of women's rights had still not been written in Afghanistan. And of course they didn't know, none of us knew, even the Taliban didn't know that by the end of the year in a few months' time the Taliban would be back in power, the Afghan National Institute of Music, where our son and Mina were studying would be closed down, musicians would be on the run and women being erased from

Lyse Doucet31:57

Public life. The Taliban still say they're going to meet the needs of all Afghans, but

Lyse Doucet32:03

It's a difficult time.

Presenter32:03

Yeah.

Presenter32:04

Uh Lise, you were in Afghanistan last summer. Do you plan to return?

Presenter32:09

Okay.

Lyse Doucet32:10

I think I needed a bit of time.

Lyse Doucet32:11

But of course I will go back to Afghanistan because Afghanistan is still part of me.

Presenter33:20

Dawn, composed by cellist Meena Karimi with Arsen Fahim, performed by Meena with the Afghanistan National Institute of Music's Orchestra.

Presenter33:31

So, Lister said, I'm going to send you away to the island. I'm giving you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to take with you. You can take one other book. What will it be?

Lyse Doucet33:41

I'm going to take a book to study, keep studying the Persian language. It's such a beautiful musical language. I love words, and so discovering them in another language is always a delight. So it will keep me very busy and my mind occupied. You can also have a luxury item. What would you like?

Lyse Doucet34:01

I think I'll will take what I take now as a luxury item, and I take s enough that I share them around with my colleagues and friends, and that's essential oil, small.

Lyse Doucet34:11

vials of essential oils. They're good for health, good for energy. I wake up in the morning and I use essential oils that I like, the blends that I like to help me wake up to the day. So I think that is a a luxury that I'd I'd like to have. And of course, essential oils are from the earth. So who knows, I could maybe even make a few myself.

Presenter34:30

Finally, Lise, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves if you had to?

Lyse Doucet34:36

It's a really difficult choice, but I think I would take Searching for Abaguate by Lenny Gallant because it reminds us.

Lyse Doucet34:43

of the importance of knowing where we come from.

Lyse Doucet34:47

to know where we are going and who we are. And it also reminds us of the struggles of people, but also their survival and their celebration. Lister said, thank you.

Presenter35:00

Very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Lyse Doucet35:03

Lauren, it's been such a pleasure.

Presenter35:17

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lise. We'll leave her to get to grips with Persian grammar. Energising essential oils might be necessary for that. We've cast away many other correspondents, including Anne Leslie, John Simpson, Alex Crawford, and Christina Lam. You can find their episodes in our Desert Island Discs programme archive and through BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Sarah Hockley. The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the statistician, Professor Sir David Spiegelhalter. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 136:03

My name's Jonathan Meyerson, and I wrote and directed Nuremberg, the new scripted podcast from BBC Radio 4.

Speaker 136:11

My father was a lawyer, and he worked with several of the British prosecutors who'd been at Nuremberg. So I grew up taking this huge trial for granted, the trial of the major Nazi war criminals.

Speaker 136:23

With six million murdered and ten million enslaved, how could these men not have faced justice?

Speaker 136:29

But it wasn't until I started researching that I discovered it very nearly didn't happen.

Speaker 136:35

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Speaker 136:36

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Speaker 136:40

But was it justice, or was it vengeance?

Speaker 136:44

Subscribe to Nuremberg on BBC Sounds and you can make up your own mind.