John Caudwell

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:40

My castaway this week is the businessman and philanthropist John Cordwell. Today he's a billionaire who made his fortune as the founder of the mobile phone retailer Phones for You. Back in the 80s he was running a car dealership with his brother when he spotted the potential of cellular technology. Phones for You became Europe's leading privately owned mobile phone group. Then in 2006 he sold it all for £1.5 billion. Growing up in a council house in Stoke-on-Trent, one of his early business ventures was selling toys to other children in his neighbourhood. That whetted his appetite to be his own boss and make money, but not just for himself. Even as a child, he dreamt of helping others, and it's his charity work that drives him today. He formed Cordwell Children, which helps children with disabilities, over 20 years ago and remains its largest single benefactor. And he was one of the first Britons to sign up to Bill and Melinda Gates's giving pledge, vowing to give away 70% of his money during his lifetime. But back to business. He says, It's unimportant to me if I'm worth a few hundred million or a billion. What is important is that I make a success of business. Success is a personal need of mine. John Cordwell, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

John Caudwell1:52

Thank you for having me.

Presenter1:54

So let's start with this personal need for success, John. Is it as strong today as it was when you first started out?

John Caudwell2:01

Yes, it's not quite as hungry as it was because in the early days it was the hunger to be financially stable that gave a greater hunger. And so, and this stems of course from my father having a stroke when I was only 14 years old and dying when I was 18 and see my mother struggle dreadfully with the financial hardship and burden of that. But the underlying thing always in my life, whatever I do, is I want to be successful. It's to do with the end product and being very proud of the service levels and the way it changes people's lives or improves people's lives or improves the environment. So it's never going to be about money.

Speaker 12:19

Yeah.

Presenter2:45

As a child though, I mean, even before your dad became unwell, I think you were dreaming about being a rich businessman. You had a fantasy of that. What did it entail?

John Caudwell2:54

I just visualized myself in the back of a chauffeur-driven Rolls-Royce, winding the windows down and giving five pound notes out to poor people. The Rolls-Royce epitomised the fact that I'd been successful, and the giving out the five pound notes was my desire to be seen as charitable and to help people. Of course, it's a very precocious and simplistic view, but that is sort of what I've gone on to do.

Presenter3:21

Time for your first choice now. Tell us about it, John. What have you gone for, and why?

John Caudwell3:26

It takes me back about 20 years, 15 to 20 years, when my partner of the day, Claire, was really into Elton John and loved Benny and the Jets. So Benny and the Jets sort of epitomizes for me those years with Claire, those years when I was working a lot with Elton's charity and we went over to South Africa with him. And that was a fantastic experience because we were working on his HIV projects in South Africa. And a highlight, a real highlight of that, was meeting one of the only heroes in my life, which was Nelson Mandela. So it's a very warm feeling about that relationship in those years.

John Caudwell4:10

Oh the wishes in the wonderful Oh man, she's a ready king

John Caudwell4:17

She's got electric boots. My mo has food. You know I'm better than

John Caudwell4:23

They know

Speaker 14:26

Uh

Speaker 14:27

Uh

Presenter4:28

I'm not sure.

Presenter4:39

Benny and the Jets, Elton John. John Caldwell, you were born then in Birmingham in nineteen fifty two, but you grew up in Stoke on Trent. How early did your appetite for business kick in, do you think?

John Caudwell4:51

When I was about four or five, I gathered whatever books and toys I'd got and put them in the back yard of our terraced house and invited all the kids round to come and buy them. And that was quite a success. Everything got sold. I got no more toys and books left. So then I went round all the kids of the local neighbourhood trying to buy up items that they didn't want anymore so that I could have another yard sale. So that was the start of my entrepreneurialism. You would have never got rich out of it, but it does sort of show that I'd got this sort of instinctive trading mentality even at that incredibly young age.

Presenter5:28

Your father Walter worked in sales for an engineering company and he was always keen to help people out, wasn't he?

John Caudwell5:34

I often joked that he was the first AA because he'd stop at every broken-down car at the road and invariably had fix them. And invariably, I'd be given a shilling or two shillings for his trouble for sitting in the car waiting patiently for an hour or so while he did so. He had absolutely got a charming and kindness in him, but with me, unfortunately, I didn't really from him get the love or the fairness that I would have really liked. In the very early years, when I was five or six, I used to wet the bed and he'd be very, very angry about me doing that. And I think looking back, he probably had PTSD because he treated me quite badly.

Presenter6:17

So that so your dad had had carried his his wartime experiences with him then, presumably?

John Caudwell6:21

I think he was scored by you know, he'd been shot at, he'd crashed in aeroplanes, he'd seen his friends killed, and I think it had traumatized him.

Presenter6:29

Hmm.

Presenter6:32

Tell me a little bit more about your mum Beryl back then. She did lots of jobs to make ends meet. What kind of thing was she doing?

John Caudwell6:37

What kind of thing?

John Caudwell6:38

Well, she worked for a pottery firm on their sales and administration office. She had this horrible big terraced house to keep clean. And, you know, she had me as a bit of a wild child who nearly drowned in the canal down at the bottom of the road building rafts when I was only about five or six and got pulled out by one of her friends. You know, she had to put up with me. And that was a big job.

Presenter7:06

Time for some more music now. This is your second choice today. What have you gone for, and why?

John Caudwell7:10

Well, I chose She Loves You by the Beatles because when I was about seven, I loved the Beatles and I managed to grow Beetle cut haircut, which is amazing when you look at me today. And my father, well, both my father and mother, thought that the Beatles destroyed the music industry, replaced classical music and jazz with the most awful rout imaginable. I grew this Beatles cut and my dad eventually said, when he realized what it was, we're not having the Beatles anywhere near this house, and lopped it all off with his shears. And my hair actually never grew back properly after that. So it was also the end of my hair growing days and the end of my Beatle days. And a sort of an example again where my father just overreacted, really. But although there were sad times, there were, of course, very happy days as well.

Speaker 18:05

You blast your love. Well I saw her yesterday, ayy It's you she's thinking of And she told me what to say, ay She said she loves you and you

John Caudwell8:18

Uh

Speaker 18:18

No.

John Caudwell8:18

Not can be bad free

John Caudwell8:21

Uh

Speaker 18:22

Uh

John Caudwell8:22

Does she love you?

Speaker 18:24

Uh

John Caudwell8:24

Uh

Speaker 18:24

Uh

Speaker 18:24

No, you should be glad.

Speaker 18:28

If you heard us all

Presenter8:33

The Beatles and She Loves You. John Caldwell, as you mentioned, when you were fourteen your father suffered a severe stroke. How serious was the impact on him and on the rest of the family?

John Caudwell8:45

Oh, it was devastating.

John Caudwell8:49

And that was the first of two strokes he was going to have. The second stroke was way more serious, which was only about six weeks later. And it was just very, very sad to see a man that was dynamic, that was utterly capable, he could fix anything, cause vacuum cleaner, didn't matter what, my father could do it. And to see.

John Caudwell9:14

cut down like that and unable to adapt.

John Caudwell9:18

It was very traumatic. And our relationship then suffered even worse because.

Speaker 19:20

And

John Caudwell9:27

He didn't try, and I was upset by that. I wanted him to try. I wanted him to, and then he was agitated and angry with me because he felt that I didn't understand his position. And that's probably true, you know, it was probably very true. And I would hate to be in his position because perhaps I would be exactly the same and give up. Because that's not my life. My life is doing things and achieving things, not being stuck in a wheelchair. So.

Speaker 19:43

Yeah.

John Caudwell9:58

You know, I'd like to think I could do a little bit better, but uh I think I wasn't understanding enough of him.

Presenter10:04

And how was he with your mother during that time?

John Caudwell10:07

He

John Caudwell10:08

Was very jealous of my mother, questioned her all the time. She could never go out, not that she had time to really, but even if she got invited out by a friend, she couldn't because my father would be very miserable about that. I suppose I was okay because I could escape, and you know, and I was at school all day, and I could escape the family environment. But I couldn't lose that feeling that my mother was being really badly treated is the wrong word because my father wasn't responsible for his actions. He could not help the way he was. But nonetheless, my mother was having a terrible, terrible time of it. And I ended up building up a huge debt of gratitude towards her and desperately wanted to make her life better.

Presenter11:03

John, it's time for some more music. Disc number three, what is it and why are you taking it with you to the island?

John Caudwell11:08

Well, it's Bring Him Home by Alfie Bow because absolutely reminds me of my mother because she loves that music. But Alfie has got a very big heart and I asked him one day, would he come and play for mum in a bedroom? And he did and he charged me nothing. I flew down in my helicopter, picked him up from his home, brought him to the house. Total surprise to my mother. There's only me, Claire at the time, my mother and Pam, our amazing carer, in the bedroom when Alfie's singing all these songs. For me, his signature tune is Bring Him Home.

Speaker 111:50

Don't know my prayer.

Speaker 112:05

Feel my knee

Speaker 112:10

With you have always been the

John Caudwell12:20

He is afraid

John Caudwell12:32

Let him run

Speaker 112:38

Heaven bless.

John Caudwell12:40

Uh

Speaker 112:42

Breathe with your heart.

Presenter12:48

Bring him home from the musical Les Miserable sung by Alfie Bo. So, John, I want to take you back to your school days, and I know that you don't have fond memories of school, especially your junior school. From day one I think you were targeted by bullies. How bad did it get?

John Caudwell13:03

But you know, unfortunately

John Caudwell13:06

And I say this very sadly and with great remorse. I found the way to avoid being bullied by being the bullier. I bullied other kids.

John Caudwell13:18

But I sorta couldn't help myself somehow.

Presenter13:21

What would you say to the kids you bullied if you could speak to them now?

John Caudwell13:25

Oh well, I'd absolutely say that I am sorry about that and ashamed and ashamed for it. I'm ashamed of it.

John Caudwell13:33

And I I've spent the rest of my life, even though I've been building big companies and have been quite aggressive in those companies, if I've felt that I was beginning to veer on any bullying type of mentality, I've tried to draw myself back from that.

John Caudwell13:52

But I always aspired to be fair. Now, sometimes, of course, irritation and frustration at somebody who did something very stupid or was very lazy would get the better of me. And yeah, perhaps I was unkind again.

Presenter14:08

Were the results always worth it, or do you have any regrets over your management style over the years?

John Caudwell14:12

One of the keys to managing people is to treat somebody how they deserve to be treated. And if they're just deliberately or doing things that are wrong,

John Caudwell14:26

Rather than get too aggressive with them, it's better just to exit them from the business in the kindest way possible that leaves them with dignity. But I think, by and large, most of the people I've ever managed would say I did a great job on them. And certainly the ones that are successful, and there's thousands, thank me endlessly and continually. So yeah, I'd got my failings. But overall, I think I was a good boss.

Presenter14:54

And what is it like to have to, as you put it, exit someone from the company?

John Caudwell14:58

It's very, very, very painful, especially having to get rid of people who really are trying but just can't deliver.

Presenter15:06

But you still did it. No no regrets.

John Caudwell15:07

You've got to do it. If you don't do it if you don't do it, you demoralize the rest of the workforce because they see you putting up with somebody and paying somebody who's not pulling the weight and not delivering, and you fail as a boss.

Presenter15:22

John, we've got to make some time for the music. Tell me about your fourth choice today. What is it?

John Caudwell15:26

Well, I met a wonderful girl named Kate, Catherine, and Maggie Mae takes me back to those teenage years and early 20s years. Rod Stewart also played for my charity, became an ambassador of the charity. So it reminds me of my wonderful wife and my three children and those early years. And that's Maggie Mae, Rod Stewart.

Speaker 115:54

Wake up Maggie, I think I got something to say to you.

Speaker 116:02

It's late September and I really should be back at school.

Speaker 116:09

And do I keep your muse?

Speaker 116:12

But I feel I'm being used.

Speaker 116:16

Oh Maggie, I couldn't have tried.

Speaker 116:20

I see more

Presenter16:24

Maggie Mae, Rod Stewart. John Cordwell, you left school at seventeen without taking your A levels, and joined the Michel Entire Company as an apprentice engineer, but your heart was set on running a company of your own, and in your spare time you started various businesses. What was your first?

John Caudwell16:41

I opened up a grocery shop. It was a little corner lock-up shop about 12 foot by 12 foot square, rented from Mrs. Shevilt for £2 a week. Everything went wrong in this grocery shop, in spite of me absolutely flogging myself to death on it in between all my Michelin work, which in those days was about 50 hours a week.

Presenter17:02

So, after that, you started a mail order business selling motorcycle gear. How did that go?

John Caudwell17:07

Well, I undercut the competition by about 20%. I still had 20% margin in them. And all of a sudden, this business took off. And Kate was then delivering these parcels to the post office. We were there all night, every night, parceling them up. It was phenomenal. And of course, looking back at this day,

John Caudwell17:27

If the devastating telephone call that occurred had not occurred, I'd have probably been the Amazon of today.

Presenter17:36

So tell me about that phone call.

John Caudwell17:37

Then I got the phone call.

Presenter17:39

What happened?

John Caudwell17:40

Bellstaff representative called me and he said, all the other dealers are complaining, cuss your customers are going in, checking out what size they are and then ordering them from you and all our dealers are upset and they said we've got to stop supplying you. I was so devastated that it knocked me for six for a few months.

Presenter18:04

What happened to you?

John Caudwell18:05

It left me in debt and I just had to fight my way through and pay off my creditors with my Michelle job. And I just licked my wounds. I saw it as that, you know, I just need to rewind, lick my wounds, solve my financial difficulties, ready to come again.

Presenter18:21

John, in nineteen eighty, you left Michelin. You set up a second hand car dealership with your younger brother, Brian, and in time, Midland Garages grew to employ a staff of seven. You reached a modest turnover. Did you feel that you'd got to a place where you felt secure?

John Caudwell18:35

No, no, absolutely not. There was a lot of weeks of the year that we lost money. And so on a Sunday night, my brother or I might be there till ten or eleven o'clock at night, hoping for that one sale that might turn that day into profit and might save the week.

Presenter18:52

John, it's time to make some room for the music. Disc number five, what have you got for us?

John Caudwell18:58

Well, that's Frank Sinatra and My Way because I bought this boat. I'd never been out to sea before. I bought the 64-foot boat and against everybody's advice, put my partner at the time, Claire, and my children on board and sailed through the Bay of Biscay from Poole Harbour, through the Bay of Biscay, which is renowned to be a treacherous sea, down to the Straits of Gibraltar and up to Barcelona. We had some of the most unbelievably challenging experiences, gearbox failures, fog, rough seas, and we survived it all. And we went into the harbour in Barcelona. Claire came up with a bottle of champagne, put on Frank Sinatra, My Way. And ever since then, it's been my signature tune. I plunged!

John Caudwell19:52

Each jot a course.

John Caudwell19:55

Each careful step

John Caudwell19:59

Along the byway

John Caudwell20:03

More

John Caudwell20:05

Much more than this.

John Caudwell20:07

I did it

John Caudwell20:09

My way.

John Caudwell20:14

Yes, there were times I'm sure you knew

Presenter20:20

Frank Sinatra and My Way. John Cordwell, in nineteen eighty five, you heard about a new gadget that you thought might be useful for your business. How did you first find out about mobile phones and what potential did you see at that point?

John Caudwell20:34

Well, I saw a guy at the car auctions with one arm about six inches longer than the other, and that was because he was carrying this mobile phone in a great big suitcase, which was dragging his shoulder down. But it was amazing because I needed to get on the phone to ring customers and say, Oh, I can't get you a red Mondeo, but I can get you a blue one or whatever it was at the time. And you couldn't get there because there was a queue. And this guy's there at the back of the auction hall, able to ring his customers. I thought, That's amazing. So I came back home and wanted to find out about mobile phones. Now, your listeners are never going to believe this because it took my secretary.

Speaker 120:54

Yeah.

John Caudwell21:14

Three days to find anybody that could sell a mobile phone. You couldn't find anybody at all. You couldn't even find out.

Presenter21:23

But you did find a supplier, and in 1986, you became a mobile phone dealer. Can you remember how many phones you bought to begin with?

John Caudwell21:31

My first order was for twenty six mobile phones, which took me eight months to sell.

Presenter21:37

So what made you keep going then over that eight months with those first twenty six phones who you were tempted to jack it all in?

John Caudwell21:43

No, never. Never, because I don't think I saw the boom as it is as it occurred. But I did see big volumes and big opportunities, big price reductions and big margins. So I stuck with it. And for two years, I lost two thousand pounds every single month.

Presenter22:02

That's a huge loss. A huge loss. How did you cope with that? That's a lot of stress to carry.

John Caudwell22:03

A huge loss.

John Caudwell22:05

It felt like I was making decent money out of the out of the car business, but it was still very painful.

Presenter22:11

But after two years of those losses you decided to change tax, so you concentrated on selling the phones while Brian kept the car business going. How did that change your finances?

John Caudwell22:21

Within two weeks I'd found a way of turning the £2,000 loss into a £20,000 a month profit and growing.

John Caudwell22:31

We became the leader in Europe in everything from mobile phone sales to retailing to trade sales, accessory distribution, everything we did. We had one simple target, to be the best and the biggest.

Presenter22:47

John, by the year two thousand, the turnover of your business empire, the Cordwell Group by then, had reached one billion pounds. How many sacrifices did you have to make to reach that level of success? How many personal sacrifices?

John Caudwell23:01

Well, massively in terms of personal health, because for a period of time I lived on tranquilizers because I was working 22 hours a day. And the

Presenter23:11

22 hours

John Caudwell23:12

Now I didn't do twenty two hours a day every day, but my average was probably on seven days a week it was probably an average of sixteen hours, seventeen hours work. But for five or six days of the of every three weeks I'd be doing twenty two hours a day with no sleep and my nervous system just wouldn't cope with it.

Presenter23:32

That is sacrificing a lot of your time, your life, to the business. Was there anything outside it?

John Caudwell23:37

Was there anything?

John Caudwell23:38

No, I don't think I yeah, no friends. No friends,'cause I didn't have time to socialize. I had no time. I you know, the only time I had was for work.

Presenter23:47

I think you've called it twenty years of grief.

Presenter23:50

Happy with your life.

John Caudwell23:51

Happy regular life. But no regrets, you know, and it's enabling me to do what I do today, which is massively spiritually satisfying.

Presenter23:59

John, it's time for your next piece of music, number six. What is it and why are you taking it with you to the island today?

John Caudwell24:05

I had meatloaf for my fifty fifth birthday.

Presenter24:08

This is the artist, not the food.

John Caudwell24:11

It is absolutely the artist. I love his songs, but Bat Out of Hell is probably nearest to my character.

Speaker 124:21

Me too!

Speaker 124:24

Oh wait the night is a watch

Speaker 124:28

Go, go, go!

John Caudwell24:30

Make a better

Speaker 124:36

But when the day is dawn and the sun goes down and the moonlight's shining through

John Caudwell24:44

Listen up before the gates are

Presenter24:49

Meatloaf and bat out of hell. John Caldwell, in the nineties you got into some trouble with the inland revenue by taking advantage of uh tax avoidance schemes. There were stories during the rounds that you used to pay yourself in gold bars and fine wine to avoid national insurance. How do you look back on your attitude to tax at the time now?

John Caudwell25:08

At the time I was scratching my way forward and this is not sort of an excuse, it's reality. I was scratching my way forward and every pound that I could save I could reinvest in the business. So paying as little tax as we possibly could was really important. But I think all of these tax fiddles, even though they were legitimate, need stamping out. So for a long time now, I've been extremely proud of paying all of my tax, not moving to tax exile status, and just paying into the UK system. So would I do that again? No, I absolutely wouldn't. But I know why I did it at the time. It was to try and retain money in the business to expand it.

Presenter25:54

You eventually paid back thirteen million pounds to the revenue and you're now a conscientious taxpayer, as you say. What changed your thinking? Where did the change happen there?

John Caudwell26:04

My social conscious was growing. You know, I'd always had this charitable side.

John Caudwell26:09

And rich people now still say to me, Oh, well, the government will waste all your money, so why pay your taxes? Don't pay your taxes and do the charity work. But taxes absolutely vital for the fabric of Britain. If Britain's going to be great Britain, we all need to stay here and we all need to pay appropriate taxes as well as the charity work we do. So my thinking just evolved, and I ended up seeing the reducing of taxes, something to be ashamed of.

John Caudwell26:44

Rather than proud of. And there is a big groundswell of opinion out there amongst chief executives of public companies, of smaller companies, that the more tax you can avoid, the smarter you are. And there is a truth in that, because you do have to be smart, but it's wrong.

Presenter27:05

So in two thousand you founded your charity called Well Children, and that helps children with disabilities. What does philanthropy give you that the cut and thrust of business doesn't?

John Caudwell27:15

When you see the way you've changed a child's life for the better.

John Caudwell27:19

I for me there's no

John Caudwell27:23

Greater happiness or spiritual satisfaction from anything that you might do in life than you'll get from that.

Presenter27:30

Let's have some more music. Disc number seven, what's it gonna be?

John Caudwell27:34

Well, this is my son who sang this on stage.

John Caudwell27:39

It's called Fix You by Cole Play. When Rufus was only about eight or nine, he was a brilliant entertainer. And he said, Dad, can I get on stage at one of your events? There was 2,000 people there. And he jumped up on stage and dedicated Fix You to the children in our charity. And he felt, because he knew enough about the charity by then, that we could fix those children.

Speaker 128:06

Lights will guide you home.

Speaker 128:14

And ignite your bones, and I will try.

Speaker 128:24

A fiction

Presenter28:34

Cold play and fix you. John Cordwell, I want to ask you more about your son Rufus. In 2014, after suffering ill health for many years, he was diagnosed with Lyme disease. That's a bacterial infection mainly caused by tick bites. You set up a charity to help fund research into testing and treatment for the disease. How did what he has gone through affect you on a personal level as a father?

John Caudwell29:00

Oh, I I was devastated because my brilliant

John Caudwell29:06

Son, who is the most confident person you've ever met.

John Caudwell29:10

turned into this anxious wreck. And never did I dream when I set up Cordwell Children five or six, seven years before that I'd be one of those people that needed help. And here I am now with my own son, a brilliant young man with an amazing life ahead of him, who struck down and I was completely powerless to help.

John Caudwell29:35

There was many, many, many times when we thought we'd lost him. And we used to have to have twenty-four-seven people in his bedroom in case he tried to to kill himself. I don't know whether he ever would. He's many times since said the only thing that kept him alive was because we were fighting so hard for him and loved him so much. But

Presenter30:01

You take a minute, it's emotional, I understand that, don't I?

John Caudwell30:04

But he is doing brilliantly now. He is another inspiration in my family. It's never, ever too late. You can come back.

John Caudwell30:14

from the most horrendous situation in life.

Presenter30:18

As we've heard, John, money can't solve everything, but you do enjoy the trappings of your wealth, I think. The helicopter, the house in Mayfair, you bought that for ninety million pounds, and spent millions more doing it up.

John Caudwell30:31

So I'm the rather weird character that will go to a charity event and maybe donate a million, which I've done many times in the past, and then the next morning be on a six forty flight out of Gatwick EasyJet for forty nine Euros when you get

Presenter30:46

Not even premium economy?

John Caudwell30:48

No, not oh no no no no no no even

Presenter30:49

They're not even jumping the queue?

John Caudwell30:50

Not jumping the queue, just go turn up at my 49 pounds or Euros.

Presenter30:55

What's that about then, John?

John Caudwell30:56

I don't need it. I only need things that are great for all my friends and great for the charity. And all of my assets I use for charitable purposes or sharing my good fortune with my friends. And that's wonderful. It's a lovely thing to do.

Presenter31:13

I'm about to send you off to the island. What will you miss most?

John Caudwell31:17

As a castaway with nobody there, you'd really miss the friendship, the companionship, the love and all of that. But there would be a huge challenge to survive, and I think that would probably keep me entertained for some time.

Presenter31:33

Well, we've got one more disc to hear, John, before we send you off to your desert island and find out what's your last choice today?

John Caudwell31:39

Well, this brings me on to Current Day because I met my current partner seven years ago on a charity cycle ride. She was an Olympian and one of the world's top five female cyclists. Not when I met her, but a few years before. Didn't see each other for two or three months after that, but then got together again cycling. And about a year later, after that, she sent me a link to a track that she dedicated to her and I. And that was truly Madley Deeply by Savage God.

Speaker 232:14

I'll be your dream, I'll be your wish, I'll be your fantasy I'll be your hope, I'll be

John Caudwell32:21

Be your love, be everything that you need I love you more with every breath Truly, madly, deeply devoted I will be strong, I will be faithful Cause I'm counting on a new beginning

Speaker 132:40

Reason for living a taper

Presenter32:44

Savage Garden and truly madly deeply. So, John Cordwell, it's time I'm going to send you away to the desert island. I'm giving you the books to take with you: the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can have one other book, too. What would you like?

John Caudwell32:52

Yeah.

Speaker 132:53

Uh

John Caudwell32:53

How f ⁇ ing?

John Caudwell32:59

Well, it it would have to be surviving on a desert island, wouldn't it? Because that's what I'm all about. You know, it's no good reading a book and dying. I need to live on that island and get rescued one day.

Presenter33:12

Fair enough. I will give you a survival manual to take with you. You can choose a luxury item, too, though. What would you like?

John Caudwell33:15

We can choose a

John Caudwell33:17

I freckle skinned, ginger haired, burn in the sunlight mad. So my luxury item would keep me alive, keep me comfortable, and that's a a full blown sunblock.

Presenter33:31

Well, it is on the practical side, John, but people have taken it before. So luckily for you, there's precedent. On the Sunblock front, you can have as much as you like. And finally, John, which track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves if you only had time to grab one?

John Caudwell33:46

Well, I think it would have to be Cold Plays Fix You.

Presenter33:51

John Caldwell, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

John Caudwell33:56

Thank you.

John Caudwell33:57

It's been a great pleasure. Thanks.

Presenter34:18

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with John. We've cast many other business people and entrepreneurs away, including Tom Eloube, Deborah Meaden, and Joe Malone. You can find their episodes in our Desert Island Discs programme archive and through BBC Sounds. The studio manager for today's programme was Nigel Dix, the assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky, and the producer was Paula McGinley. Next time, my guest will be the journalist Lise Doucette. I do hope you'll join us.

Presenter35:01

Alright, here we go OT, 5, 6, 7, 8. Dance. It has the power to connect and to entertain. And in a new series for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds, I explore the iconic dancers who have been doing just that.

Speaker 235:16

Dance, it really I think saved my life.

Presenter35:19

Join me, Otima Wuse, as I delve into the lives of the innovators and the mall breakers who have changed dance forever.

Speaker 235:27

Ever.

Presenter35:27

Uh

Speaker 135:27

Gene Kelly was this working class guy that I just really connected with that.

Speaker 235:31

Ultima voices Dancing Legends on Radio 4 and PVC sounds.