Deborah Levy

Speaker 10:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcast.

Presenter0:04

Podcasts

Presenter0:05

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:44

My castaway this week is Deborah Levy, novelist, playwright and poet. Her novels Hot Milk and Swimming Home both made the book a prize shortlist, but she took her first steps into writing as a schoolgirl, encouraged by a teacher to put down her thoughts on paper as she lost her voice. The results were a record of things she didn't want to know. They included her father's status as a political prisoner in apartheid South Africa, where she was born. Years later, she would revisit this story in the first of her three much-acclaimed and groundbreaking memoirs, which she describes as living autobiographies, charting her progress through midlife. Her family came to the UK shortly after her father's release from prison, making a new life in London, where she decided to become a writer. An encounter with the filmmaker Derek Jarman, a patron at the cinema where she was a teenage usherette, inspired her to study drama, and she started out writing for the stage. She's tackled many forms since, but the spotlight has stayed steady. She says, I want to walk my female characters in the centre of my work. They don't have to be likable, but they have to be compelling and complicated. Deborah Levy, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you. Last year you published the eagerly anticipated third volume, Real Estate, of what you call your living autobiographies. What's the distinction of including the word living?

Presenter2:10

It was

Deborah Levy2:10

like a made-up word because they're not quite memoirs, they're not quite autobiographies because my understanding of an autobiography is that it's a full life and that on the whole it's chronological. You know, you start with childhood and you work through a life. But these books don't look over my shoulder. They're written in the present tense. Obviously the past steps into them. But they're written in the first person, in the here and now and in the storm of life. So I thought why not call them living autobiographies.

Presenter2:47

And tell me then about the leading character in those books. You've described your narrator's voice in your memoirs as an eye that is close to myself and yet not myself. It has to be a

Deborah Levy2:57

A voice that I could live with and that felt close to me.

Deborah Levy3:02

But there is an artifice to all writing, and also to memoirish type writing, because you have to create a voice who is very much like yourself, but

Presenter3:16

Is also an other. All right, Deborah, we're going to hear your music today. In real estate, you write, perhaps that's the way with music. What's the point if it doesn't hurt? What can we expect from your selections today?

Deborah Levy3:28

My first choice is the song that started out as a hymn and became the anthem that expressed the struggle for liberation against the apartheid system in South Africa. This is the version that we played at my father's funeral. He died recently. It's not the rousing version of my own childhood, but it felt right for this occasion. And very specially, it is the first known recording of Kosi Sigaleli Afrika.

Deborah Levy4:08

Sung by Saul Plaikey, the first Secretary General of the ANC.

Deborah Levy4:13

The recording was made in nineteen twenty three and features Silvia Colenzo on piano.

Speaker 24:21

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Speaker 24:31

My immediate

Presenter4:32

And I'll wait for me.

Speaker 14:37

Da da da da da da d

Presenter4:40

Uh

Deborah Levy4:41

Okay.

Speaker 14:41

Uh

Speaker 14:44

Uh

Deborah Levy4:45

Oh some more

Speaker 24:47

Yeah.

Deborah Levy4:48

Uh

Speaker 24:49

Oh, Samboya.

Deborah Levy4:50

Yeah.

Speaker 15:05

Uh

Deborah Levy5:05

Uh

Speaker 15:05

Uh

Deborah Levy5:05

Yeah.

Speaker 15:06

Uh

Deborah Levy5:06

Isa Moya.

Deborah Levy5:08

Oh God.

Speaker 15:09

Uh Oh yeah.

Speaker 25:15

It's a warrior

Presenter5:20

Cozy Sigale Africa, sung by the first Secretary General of the ANC, Saul Pleikey, with Silvia Colenzo on the piano. That track, then, Deborah, taking you back to South Africa, where you were born in 1959, into apartheid. Your father, Norman, was an ANC activist, and he was imprisoned for his anti-apartheid views. You were just five when he was arrested, certainly old enough to be aware of events. How was his absence explained to you? Well.

Deborah Levy5:51

My mother explained that there were many children whose parents didn't agree with the racist system and that they were heroes and heroines. My mother was someone who thought that we should have a stiff upper lip and be courageous at all times. And I did my best, but wherever there's a stiff upper lip, there's a trembling lower lip. We all did our best.

Presenter6:23

Your father was in prison for, I think, four years. It was a very traumatic time for you, and you actually stopped speaking for a while. How do you look back at that now, that loss of your voice?

Deborah Levy6:36

Yes, it wasn't exactly being mute. It was just that the volume of my voice got lower and lower and lower until no one could hear me.

Deborah Levy6:48

So the kids at school used to say in the playground, are you dumb? And I used to nod because that would be the end of it and they would leave me alone. I think it was really about just being totally overwhelmed by everything, not believing that my thoughts were in any way valuable to anyone.

Deborah Levy7:10

probably very frightened thoughts, you know, that I didn't even want to think. And so I just stopped speaking.

Presenter7:19

And it was during this time that you took your first steps into writing, thanks to the the prompting of one of your teachers when you were away staying with your godmother.

Deborah Levy7:27

Yeah, it was my father as well. I mean, obviously this was something that was discussed, and a a teacher said, Why don't you write down your thoughts?

Deborah Levy7:38

So I had a go, and I discovered that my thoughts were quite loud.

Deborah Levy7:43

And then I invented a cat.

Deborah Levy7:46

that had yellow eyes and was very lonely and could fly and do somersaults over the jackaranda trees. And of course the cat was myself and I began to understand at at quite a young age that you could

Deborah Levy8:05

Find an avatar to be you and give it your problems and your thoughts and your opinions. So really that was the beginning.

Deborah Levy8:16

Uh

Presenter8:17

Deborah, it's time to go to the music. Your second choice today. What have you gone for and why?

Deborah Levy8:22

David Bowie's Starman from the rise and fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars. Well, when I was thirteen, living in England in West Finchley,

Deborah Levy8:36

And I heard Starman on top of the pops. It literally blew my mind. Bowie was ahead of everyone else when he created a rock star alter ego who was a citizen of Mars with the bonus of free movement to Earth. And although Bowie killed off his alter ego, Ziggy Stardust, way before his own sad death, I have to confess that Ziggy is still wearing full makeup and is totally alive in my mind.

Speaker 29:15

There's a stump man waiting in the

Speaker 19:19

Sky He'd like to come and meet us, but he thinks he'd blew our minds. There's a storm waiting in the sky. He's told us not to blow it, cause he knows it's all worthwhile. He's holding it.

Speaker 19:38

Build the news at Belong to Chelten Blue Gay.

Presenter9:44

David Bowie and Starman. So, Deborah Levy, after your father returned from his prison sentence, your family left South Africa quite soon after that, and and you came to the UK by boat. You were nine years old, I think. Can you tell me what the atmosphere was like when you were leaving the country? And did you think you were leaving forever?

Deborah Levy10:04

I didn't know really what was happening except that political prisoners on the whole were going to have to go into exile. And when we arrived in England,

Deborah Levy10:19

It was like a whole new beginning because I had friends at school. That made a change because I was one of those kids in South Africa who longed for the bell to ring and end playtime. And suddenly I had lively and funny friends. I couldn't get over how their parents called me things like lamb and duck and love and sausage.

Presenter10:48

You settled at first in Wembley Park, I think. You were living in a little flat above a menswear shop. Yeah.

Deborah Levy10:53

What was it like? Well, the deal was that my parents were going to work in it. It was exciting. And my father was a historian and later a professor of the history of ideas. But he had to find work and we moved around to wherever he found a job.

Deborah Levy11:13

So he was a school teacher in secondary schools. He took

Deborah Levy11:18

Lecturing jobs in the evening, about three or four jobs and in the mornings. Wherever we lived, I used to see him marking student work. That's a really strong memory. And one day he noticed that the hem of his suit trousers had come undone. And he gave me his stapler and he said, could you just staple up these trousers? And off he went. That was how life was.

Presenter11:49

Oh, so his trousers stapled up. I mean, a pragmatist then, and just kind of getting on with it. Yeah. That generation.

Deborah Levy11:50

Probably.

Presenter11:56

Just got

Deborah Levy11:56

on with it, you know, he had to put uh food on the table.

Presenter12:00

Let's go to the music, Deborah. It's your third choice today. What have you gone for?

Deborah Levy12:05

It's Philip Glass and it's the opening from Glass Works. I listen to music a lot and especially when I write because I don't want to read too much when I'm in the middle of writing say a novel.

Deborah Levy12:23

And Glass is someone I play a lot because of his formal structure, his repetition, the way that the music rises and falls. It sort of allows

Deborah Levy12:36

thoughts of my own to come in. It's as if his work is somehow entirely necessary to write to.

Presenter13:48

Philip Glass, playing the opening from Glassworks. Deborah Levy, you want to place women centre-stage in your work then. I wonder where that desire comes from. I know that you've written that you never thanked your mother for running away from the life that had been planned out for her and towards something very different. Her determination to do that and to follow her own path and be her own person must have been a big influence on you.

Deborah Levy14:14

I think it must at at some level. It took me a long time to think that through. You know, my mother was from a very different class than from my father. He was Jewish, a Marxist, a historian. And my mother was from an upper middle class family. The expectations were that she would learn shorthand and teach herself to type and then she would marry.

Deborah Levy14:39

It seemed to me when I first started to write novels after the theatre.

Deborah Levy14:45

was that this was my opportunity to kind of walk female subjectivity right into the centre of the world because it was something that we were not given.

Deborah Levy14:59

Very often. And so the first line of my first novel is actually My Mother Was the Ice Skating Champion of Moscow. She thought that was an incredible line. I think it was the favourite of anything I'd I'd written.

Presenter15:15

A key moment, Deborah, in your progress as a writer was meeting Derek Jarman. It was a bit of an unusual encounter. It happened while you were working as an usherette in a London cinema, and he ended up changing your plans. Tell me about him.

Deborah Levy15:28

Yeah, it was i in in my year out, I think you say now I was going to s read literature.

Presenter15:32

Okay, this can

Deborah Levy15:35

and um and I was an usherette at the Gate Cinema in Rotting Hill, and we were showing Derek's films, and he was a really kind, cultured man, and he would talk to the slowly usherette.

Deborah Levy15:50

And he said to me, Why don't you?

Deborah Levy15:54

try applying to Dartington College of Arts because I had this big interest in what would now be called a sort of interdisciplinary arts education. And so that's exactly what I did. I took his advice and I got in and my life changed

Presenter16:12

Forever. All right, it's disc number four now, Deborah. What have you chosen and why are you taking it to the island today?

Deborah Levy16:18

Well, I guess it's the song that reminds me of those theatre writing days and it's Lottie Lenya singing Mac the Knife from the Beggars Opera. Kurt Vaughr who composed this is one of my favourite composers but the thing about Lottie Lenya was that she had this direct tough

Deborah Levy16:44

Voice that was emotional and not sentimental.

Deborah Levy16:50

And she had such sass, and so she was a a sort of role model.

Presenter16:57

Unda hi fisch der hat seine undi trekte

Presenter17:04

Are you

Speaker 117:06

Yeah.

Speaker 117:07

Uh

Presenter17:07

Oh my keys!

Presenter17:09

Uh

Speaker 117:15

Come on, E.

Speaker 117:17

Uh

Presenter17:17

Yeah. Annam Schulen Blau and Santak Ligtan Totar Manam Strend Undan Menschke Rom Diek Deinman Meke Meserden.

Speaker 117:36

Un Schmuhl Maya blai fersbunden und savancha.

Speaker 117:43

Bayamal Un Sankel Pa.

Deborah Levy17:53

Uh

Presenter17:55

Lotta Lenya, singing Mac the Knife from the Threppenny Opera with lyrics by Berthold Brecht and music by Kurt Weil. So Deborah Levy, tell me about your time at Dartington College of Arts then. It was a different route for you to take. Did it fulfil your expectations?

Deborah Levy18:10

I think it was the best four years of my life in some ways, because it was in the countryside, there wasn't a day I was bored, it was where I was finding my voice as a playwright, and I look back on that time and I just feel happy thinking about it.

Presenter18:32

The characters in your novels, Deborah, are so well drawn. Is there a big difference when creating characters in a novel as opposed to a play? Because you know you'd written more than a a dozen plays over the course of ten years or so.

Deborah Levy18:45

I mean, totally. I think what my theatre training

Deborah Levy18:49

And

Deborah Levy18:50

bit of dance training had taught me

Deborah Levy18:55

was how to embody a character in fiction.

Deborah Levy18:58

You don't have to really do that.

Deborah Levy19:01

as a playwright because the actors tend to embody

Deborah Levy19:04

That character, find out how he stands, and all of that. So it was a shaky transition, that first novel, Beautiful Mutants, a State of the Nation novel written in the Thatcher years. But it was sort of wonderful because you could go right inside a character's head. You know, you could be in three places or time zones at the same time. So it gave me a sort of freedom that I needed then.

Presenter19:38

We'll have some more music, if that's all right, Deborah. Your fifth choice today. What have you gone for?

Deborah Levy19:43

Yeah, well.

Deborah Levy19:45

I decided that the song

Deborah Levy19:48

The best evokes falling in love.

Deborah Levy19:52

And I did fall madly in love is Black is the colour of my true love's hair by Nina Simone. She made a language and she owned her piano and in the song she sings this ballad with such pain and poise and elegance. It's almost like you get lost in that song and I think that sort of headiness is a little like falling in love.

Speaker 120:33

Uh

Deborah Levy20:33

Uh

Speaker 120:33

Black is a colour.

Speaker 120:41

But my true loves him.

Speaker 120:49

His face so soft and wondrous fair

Deborah Levy20:58

From the purest eyes and the stars

Speaker 121:11

Uh Uh

Speaker 221:11

Uh

Speaker 121:11

Uh

Speaker 221:11

Uh

Speaker 121:11

Uh

Speaker 121:14

I love the ground always down

Speaker 221:14

A crap

Speaker 121:18

I love the brown wind

Presenter21:20

Uh

Speaker 121:22

Yeah.

Presenter21:24

Black is the colour of my true love's hair, Nina Simone. Deborah Levy, you spent five years working on your novel Swimming Home, which was shortlisted for the Booker Prize in 2012, but I think at first you couldn't find a publisher for it. Why not? The book that was a

Deborah Levy21:39

opposed not to have any economic strength, I think that's how it was put, went on to sell very well indeed.

Deborah Levy21:50

I was writing Swimming Home towards the end of my marriage. I knew that we were going to separate and that would be the first novel that I had written for a very long time. I used to write it at night when my children were sleeping. I remember at four in the morning, there was a car alarm that used to go off. And I think, oh yes, good. I get some sleep now. And that was the novel actually that changed my life because when I separated from my husband and that book had been nominated for the Booker Prize, it was a sort of strange time of extreme unhappiness and shock and jubilation and pleasure. It was all happening at the same time. Do you think about commercial success? Is that important to you at all?

Deborah Levy22:47

to be valued and to be respected and to be read.

Deborah Levy22:53

is an incredible

Deborah Levy22:55

privilege. It's an extraordinary feeling. I feel, especially writing the Living Autobiographies and now my next novel, that there is a kind of unheard conversation between writer and reader. You kind of sit there on your own.

Deborah Levy23:14

and you're thinking about something and you transmit an idea into the world and you see what comes back.

Deborah Levy23:22

I feel very strongly that we should write about things that we don't understand, because there is this idea.

Deborah Levy23:31

that we have to have hypercoherence when we write. And I think that blocks a lot of young writers who are interesting thinkers. Why not just write something you don't understand for the life of you and see what happens so that you always going to

Deborah Levy23:52

kind of right in between understanding something and absolutely not. And when you do hit a certain kind of lucidity and coherence, hard one, uh that's the moment when you you just kind of have a glass of wine and and have a good evening because it's okay.

Presenter24:15

A is what

Deborah Levy24:15

Uh

Presenter24:15

Yeah. Done.

Deborah Levy24:16

Yeah.

Presenter24:16

Yeah.

Presenter24:17

Deborah, it's time to go to the music. Your sixth choice today. What is it?

Deborah Levy24:22

Laura Marling Soothing.

Deborah Levy24:26

Well the funny thing about this great song is that it's not soothing at all. And it's the song that I associate with falling out of love and needing to change everything. In fact it's it's about every break up but what I really love about Marling's voice is its unearthly

Deborah Levy24:48

ethereal quality. And also I don't really know what the song is about, just to go back to our last conversation, yet it feels true, it has a kind of depth charge that speaks to me about

Deborah Levy25:06

Changing all that isn't working in your life and doing something good for yourself.

Deborah Levy25:14

I need some

Presenter25:16

Who's there?

Presenter25:20

My lips aren't moving

Presenter25:27

Uh

Speaker 125:27

My God is blue.

Presenter25:41

Drawn in shock

Presenter25:43

Lorimarling and Soothing.

Presenter25:46

Deborah, your second living autobiography, The Cost of Living, finds you separated from your husband.

Presenter25:53

and writing and thinking about unmaking the family home, as he put it.

Presenter25:59

It was painful to go through. How difficult was it to write about? It was

Deborah Levy26:03

That's painful because

Deborah Levy26:06

I think I had really hoped and believed in enduring love.

Deborah Levy26:12

It had been a long relationship of 23 years, and it's very hard to believe that a life that you've made together is not going to continue. So it was a loss, but it was something that I wanted to write. So what I feel very strongly about those kind of moments in life is that it's much, much better to write from a position of love than hate.

Deborah Levy26:43

And that Laura Marling song speaks to that thought.

Deborah Levy26:48

Because there's much more to risk.

Deborah Levy26:52

in love than there is in anything else. That's where all the risk is. And so the cost of living takes up that idea. It's written from that position of making a new home for my daughters, starting a new life. And then it also looks at losses, exploring a subject.

Deborah Levy27:15

As difficult as love and the loss of it.

Presenter27:21

Deborah, you started a new chapter yourself in 2019 when you were awarded a fellowship by Columbia University from the Institute for Ideas and Imagination, and that meant that you went to live in Paris for a year. It was just before your sixtieth birthday, which is a pretty cool place to enter a new decade. How did you mark the occasion?

Deborah Levy27:41

Oh, it was great. Can you imagine? Ideas, imagination, enough money, reading Annie or No by The Sen.

Deborah Levy27:50

One of the fellows was DJ Imaka Ogbo.

Deborah Levy27:56

And he said, when I was feeling a bit blue about my sixtieth and wondering if my life added up to anything, and if I had achieved anything worthwhile, and had there been enough love and loving and you know, all those sort of questions when when you're about to turn sixty, he said, well, I'm going to be DJing at Silencio, which was a club designed and started by David Lynch and I think you should have your birthday party there. And that's exactly what I did. My daughters couldn't believe how cool their mother was and that they were coming to Silencio. Neither could I. I think we better have some music on

Presenter28:41

That note, what are we going to hear next, Evro?

Deborah Levy28:43

So every novel I write probably has a sort of playlist, and in particular my most recent novel, The Man Who Saw Everything.

Deborah Levy28:55

And this features a very narcissistic, freakishly beautiful man, Saul Adler, who we first meet at 28, and his then girlfriend, Jennifer Murrow, who's 23. She takes a photograph of him on the Abbey Road crossing, and that comes back to haunt the story. And Jennifer's song would be Diamonds and Rust by Joan Byers, because this is her song about Bob Dylan, in which the male character in her song keeps everything vague. There are ghosts in that song, and they're ghosts in my novel.

Speaker 129:39

My poetry was lousy, you say.

Speaker 129:44

Where are you calling from?

Speaker 129:47

A booze in the Midway

Speaker 129:52

Ten years ago I bought you some couple We both know what memories can bring They bring diamonds and rugs

Presenter30:09

Joan Baez and Diamonds and Rust. Deborah Levy, your father eventually returned to live in South Africa and I know he became quite disappointed by the corruption that he saw there. Have you been back to the country that you were born and and lived in during your early life often?

Deborah Levy30:27

When my father returned, after Nelson Mandela was released, we used to go visit him maybe once a year.

Deborah Levy30:35

It was always very emotional.

Deborah Levy30:38

My father died in South Africa. My mother died in Britain. One of the things that he used to do, he was an absent father most of my life, but also very present and engaged. I don't know how he managed to do that, but he did. I used to send him photographs of fruit from a grocery store in London, mangoes and papayas and melons. and I'd say, which one do you think I should buy? Because he he always knew which one was ripe. And he'd study the photo in Cape Town and he'd say,

Deborah Levy31:17

The last one on the left.

Deborah Levy31:19

And it was always the case that he was right. And so.

Deborah Levy31:25

When he was dying and I was saying goodbye to him and he was saying, what are you thinking? I was thinking, I've said goodbye to you so many times in my life, but this is the final goodbye. And I guess that the fact that he died there and my mother in Britain sort of really encapsulates who I am, you know, a bit from here and a bit from there, a long journey in between.

Presenter32:07

It's almost time to cast you away to the island, Deborah. Your life's been peppered by moments of having to recreate and reshape it again, unmake the homes that you've lived in, and build anew. What lessons have you learned that might come in useful on the desert island?

Deborah Levy32:21

Hmm. Well

Deborah Levy32:23

Swim, stretch the body. I think I'd be quite good at collecting herbs and foraging. I wouldn't be too adverse to that sun, having been born in Africa. I'm quite used to solitude, because that is the writer's life. Although I am also a very social person, so maybe I'll make friends with an animal. I'm hoping that, you know, there might be some sort of creature that won't eat me.

Deborah Levy32:58

but who might become my companion.

Presenter33:02

Well, one more track before we send you away to find out. What have you chosen? The go-to track in my life.

Deborah Levy33:09

is Patty Smith's Because the Night. It gives me energy, it makes me want to write, it's about desire and power and the future, and I love it.

Speaker 133:33

Might belong to love Because the night belongs to love

Speaker 133:40

Because

Speaker 133:41

Love to watch ever a doubt when I'm alone Lovers ring the telephone Love is an angel disguised as love

Presenter33:55

Patty Smith and Because the Night. So, Deborah Levy, it's time to send you away to the island. I'm going to give you the Bible to take with you and the complete works of Shakespeare, of course. You can also take another book. What will that be?

Deborah Levy34:09

This is very difficult.

Deborah Levy34:12

I walked around my flat looking at

Deborah Levy34:15

the bookshelves, trying to figure what book have I carried around with me for decades.

Deborah Levy34:24

Not red, but not thrown away.

Deborah Levy34:28

So I have to want to read it and the book that I'm going to take

Deborah Levy34:33

is by the Swiss psychoanalyst Carl Jung, The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious. So my reasoning is I would need an interesting mind to keep me company.

Deborah Levy34:50

Someone I can argue with. I don't have to agree with. You know, after all that swimming and very, very sunburnt and probably starving, I would be in a good place to think about Jung's idea of the archetypes. What do they mean? You know, who is the innocent? Who's the orphan, the hero, the caregiver, the seducer? I think Jung will keep me very busy.

Presenter35:18

Well, he certainly will. I mean, it all sounds rather rigorous, so I'd better give you a luxury item, too, Deborah, just for a little bit of pampering or sensory stimulation. What would you like?

Deborah Levy35:27

Indefinitely. Uh

Presenter35:27

Uh

Deborah Levy35:27

My luxury item is a silk sheet because I am very passionate about silk. I like to wear it. It's like a second skin and it would be like company. I could wrap myself in it to protect myself from the mosquitoes or maybe even make a sort of tent.

Deborah Levy35:49

Yeah.

Presenter35:49

Fabulous.

Deborah Levy35:49

It's yours.

Presenter35:51

Yeah.

Deborah Levy35:51

Thank you.

Presenter35:52

And finally, which one of the eight tracks that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves if you had to?

Deborah Levy35:58

Because the night, Patty Smith, after a while on the island, that song would remind me of the city and of traffic and pubs and crowds and it would maybe give me the energy to write and figure a way to get home.

Presenter36:18

Deborah Levy, thank you so much for letting us hear your desert island discs. And thank you.

Presenter36:45

Hello there, I hope Deborah's very happy on her island with her young and silk sheet. I mean, who wouldn't be? We've cast many writers away over the years. They include Maggie O'Farrell and Zadie Smith, and you can hear their programmes if you search through our Desert Island Discs programme archive or on BBC Sounds. Next time, my guest will be the businessman, John Cordwell. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 237:16

From the makers of the Battersea Poltergeist, a new podcast series for BBC Radio 4.

Speaker 237:22

Uncanny.

Speaker 237:24

Do you believe in ghosts? No. Have you seen one? Yes. Real-life stories of the supernatural. Told by the people they happen to. Presented by me, Danny Robbins.

Speaker 237:35

There was a very strong sense of pure evil.

Speaker 237:42

Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds.