Amanda Khozi Mukwashi

Speaker 10:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Presenter0:04

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:42

My castaway this week is Amanda Cozy McCwashie, the CEO of Christian Aid. Founded in the wake of World War Two, the charity brings together 41 British and Irish churches and supports projects in almost 40 countries. Born in Twickenham, Amanda grew up in Zambia and Rome and studied law in Lusaka before returning to the UK, where, despite ample qualifications, she was unable to find work in her field of expertise. She retrained and spent four years working in nursing and care homes. That experience, she says, reshaped and humbled her. It also led her to leadership roles with VSO International and at the UN Volunteers Programme in Germany.

Presenter1:23

Now she's guiding one of our most recognized NGOs as it responds to the impact of a global pandemic on the world's poorest at a time when many of the traditional approaches to fundraising have been curtailed. Yet she describes it as a dream job, a chance to bring together her passion for humanitarian work with the faith that sustains her. She says, There are things that come across your path, and at the time you may not realize it, but they become important to you on your journey. Faith was mine. It found me and changed me. Amanda Cozy McCwashi, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you so much for having me.

Presenter2:00

I know that you are a straight talker. You've described your mother's family, I think, as straight talkers who've had little sympathy for any form of self-pity, so we should probably expect you to speak your mind today, as always.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi2:10

As always, I think that it's it's part of my social fabric, if I can describe it that way. We are only guaranteed this moment, isn't it? We don't know what tomorrow brings. And so I believe that if you are in that space, if you have the platform, whatever you're doing, speak your mind.

Presenter2:30

You've devoted more than twenty five years to alleviating poverty and tackling injustice, and in that time you must have witnessed some of the very worst and, of course, some of the best, of humanity. I wonder what have been some of the toughest moments for you?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi2:45

Right at the beginning of my tenure at Christian Aid, I visited Cox's Bazaar where the Rohingya are.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi2:53

I went to Jamtoli camp.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi2:55

I think there were about 50,000 people there. And I met a woman with two children. I think she had two daughters, a 12-year-old and a 14-year-old. And she told me that she sleeps across the door, because these are temporary shelters, right? She sleeps across the door. And I said, why? And she said, because every night she is worried that her children, her daughters will be sexually molested or violated. And so she slept across the door so that whoever tried to come in, they would have to kill her first. So that's one of the things that I've seen, you know. At the same time, you talk to these women and they never lose hope.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi3:35

They just don't, and so you ask yourself

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi3:38

How dare do I lose hope when women and girls in these situations are not losing hope? And I think that is what really gets me going.

Presenter3:49

I know that music is very important to you, and we're going to be sharing your discs today, of course. You've said that singing has always been a way for your family to share and celebrate. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi3:59

I was raised by my mother's family because my biological father died when I was two. And there is singing people. It was very normal to wake up in the morning, hear my mother singing or my grandmother singing. We would go to the field and during harvest and the whole group would be singing. So music has always been quite central in my life.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi4:21

Well, that's me

Presenter4:21

I could start then, Amanda. Disc number one. What have you chosen and why have you chosen it?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi4:27

So I've chosen this particular song because it reminds me of my mother. My mother worked, she was a secretary, but over the weekends her friends would come over and they would be dancing by the veranda. And every time I think of that period of our lives, I just think to myself, what a wonderful woman she is. And so the song that I've picked is by Miriam McKebber and it's called Pata Pata because it's about dancing.

Speaker 44:55

Saku Puga Sati Bega Da Ti Patapa Saku Poga Sati Bega Nati Patapat Saku Puga Sati Pega Da Tapa Saku Puga Sati Bega Dati Patapa Da Ti Patapotoi Yama Mai Yama A T Pa

Speaker 45:20

That's it, but

Presenter5:24

Amiria McKeba and Pata Pata. So Amanda Kotumakwashi, you were born in Twickenham where your father attended the Royal Military School of Music and became the bandmaster for the Zambian Army. The family returned to Zambia when you were very little, just a year or so old I think. And as you mentioned, not long after that, your father very sadly died, leaving your mother a widow at just 23 with three young children. She was also pregnant with your younger sister. It must have been incredibly stressful.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi5:52

Yeah.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi5:53

Because my father was originally from Malawi,

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi5:56

And I come from an ethnic group called Dengonis, which is very patrilineal. So the rules at the time were that she couldn't keep the children. And so my father's family decided that they wanted the children to go back to Malawi with them. And my grandfather, fantastic guy, he negotiated with them to leave at least one child behind. And so they left me behind because I was the girl. Because of course, traditionally at the time, and because of patriarchy, the boys are more valuable than the girls.

Presenter6:30

So is this your maternal grandfather that that negotiated? Behalf of your mother.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi6:35

Yeah. And so that's how my two brothers left. We never saw them again until we were adults. So when I look at my mom and I think about what she's been through,

Speaker 16:42

Yeah.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi6:47

I just think I couldn't have had a better role model than her.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi6:51

She's everything to me.

Presenter6:53

I know that you were very close to your maternal grandparents. They were Shona people from Zimbabwe who'd settled in Zambia, and especially close, I think, to your grandfather, who you've already mentioned. Tell me a little bit more about him. What was he like?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi7:07

Just picture a very short man, because my grandfather was very short. And when they first arrived in Zambia, they worked on farms that were owned by white men. And there was this particular one, Mr. James. Apparently, one day he was beating one of the other workers there, and he was beating them really, really badly. And my grandfather said to him, Stop. If you don't stop, I'm going to fight you. And everybody was really worried that he was going to lose his job. But he never did lose his job. And Mr. James stopped beating the worker and he told him, I'm keeping you because you're such a hard worker. And my grandfather said, I'm staying because I want to work. But otherwise, if you treat us like this, I'm not going to stay. So surely, if that was my grandfather, I'm not surprised that I'm the way I am, to be fair.

Presenter8:01

It's gotta come from somewhere.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi8:03

Yeah.

Presenter8:03

Uh

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi8:04

Yeah.

Presenter8:04

There's also a really lovely story that he told your mother, which I think you've taken to your heart. What was that about?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi8:12

When it rains, especially if you live in rural areas where there are a lot of trees and vegetation, what happens is these tropical rains. And then when it stops raining, everything is quiet. It's really silent. And they had taken shelter somewhere. And so they were walking back. And each time one of the little branches sort of or twigs broke, my mother would jump and she was scared. And my grandfather said to her, don't be scared. The trees are having a conversation about you. They're asking each other, who is that? And then the other tree says, oh, that's Voote's daughter. Voote was my grandfather. And you see, if I make a noise, she's going to jump. And so the twig breaks and you jump. And the other tree says, you see? I told you. My grandfather said to me when I was coming over here that remember wherever you go, no matter what, the trees know who you are. When you take off your shoes and you walk barefoot, the earth knows who you are. So always remember that.

Presenter9:22

I love that, that's so beautiful.

Presenter9:25

It's time for some more music, Amanda, your second disc. What are we going to hear and why?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi9:29

So at the age of 10, my mother remarried and my stepfather was posted to Rome into the diplomatic service. He was very Catholic, and so we were raised not just in a Catholic household, but also in the heart of Catholicism. The Vatican was like the church next door. And this song for me, we used to sing it in the chamber choir, the days when I could still sing, and I was a member of the school chamber choir. As you can imagine, as a teenager, you're growing up, you're trying to find yourself. But what was very centering for me was that each time I went home, there was that grounding in the Word of God and in Catholicism.

Speaker 410:16

God save

Speaker 410:23

Dawning was stared.

Speaker 410:28

Oh man.

Speaker 410:42

I love the roots.

Speaker 410:48

His bed and olds Fronto's bed is

Speaker 411:01

Send on my heel.

Presenter11:13

Ave Maria, composed by Jacques Arkadelt, performed by the Chamber Choir of Namur, conducted by Leonardo Garcia Alecon. So Amanda Cozy Makwashi, when you were ten, as you said, your mother married your stepfather. He was a widower and he had seven children of his own. They then went on to have two more children, so you became one of a blended family, as we say these days, of 11 siblings? Yes. How easily did you find your place? It must have been quite an adjustment to make.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi11:42

It always felt a bit like we were inside, outside, a bit. I don't know how to describe that.

Presenter11:49

So, so part of something, but also separate from it. Yes, yes. Yeah.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi11:53

We were the children that came with our mother to the marriage. So that's how uh it's described in my local language. And so it was sometimes it was hard, but

Speaker 412:02

Kingdom

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi12:06

When there are many of you in the home, you have to if you want to watch your favorite cartoons, you have to negotiate with others.

Presenter12:16

So those skills began to come to the fore then.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi12:16

I

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi12:18

From two four then.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi12:19

Yeah.

Presenter12:19

Okay.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi12:19

Okay, you know, so you know, you want to negotiate, to watch your favorite cartoon, what time, what do you give up? The interesting thing, uh believe it or not, I was introvert and so sometimes I would sit there and just observe what was happening around me. So

Presenter12:37

You're a watcher.

Presenter12:39

Uh

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi12:39

Uh

Presenter12:39

How did you find life in Italy?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi12:41

When you're very young, you have a thirst for learning. You know, nothing daunts you. But I remember when we were preparing to go, when we knew that we were going to Italy, I remember my mother sitting us at the table and teaching us how to eat spaghetti, okay? Because spaghetti, of course, was not part of our staple food. And so we were sitting there with our forks and spoons, trying to learn how to eat it well with manners and appropriately. We blended in, but even within that, again, that theme, that thread of being inside but outside, remained. I remember an experience once. We were walking with a friend of mine from Congo, Brazzaville, and we saw a Catholic nun who looked at us and did the sign of the cross, right? And that was quite common when people saw black people in some areas. Do you remember how you felt in that moment? Being a teenager, we just brushed it off. It didn't stick at the time.

Presenter13:47

Of course, you were growing up in a Catholic family and living in the epicentre of the Christian world. Tell me about that backdrop and what impact it had on how your own faith was developing.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi13:57

We were not always keen to go to church.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi14:01

I don't know if I should be saying this.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi14:04

We were not always so keen to be going to church. It felt like a chore, you know, like, oh my goodness, it's Sunday. And we used to take it in turns to say, I'm not feeling well. So who's going to pull a sickie?

Presenter14:14

So the kids would negotiate on who was going to pull a sickie.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi14:16

Yeah.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi14:18

so that we didn't have to go to church. But I was baptized as a in the Catholic Church. I received my Holy Communion, my confirmation. So that's how significant it was for us.

Presenter14:31

We'll find out what happened next in a moment. For now, Amanda, we've got to make some time for the music. It's your third disc. What is it, and why are you taking it with you to the island?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi14:40

So this one is a song by Bruce Springston and it's called My Hometown. I went back to Zambia after I finished my sixth form and I looked around me.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi14:51

The good things as well as the bad things, you know, the poverty, the politics, I see the good, the bad. I see it. But it's still my hometown and I love it.

Speaker 415:03

Cars in a line on Saturday night

Speaker 415:07

Back seed there was a gone

Speaker 415:11

Words are bad.

Speaker 415:13

Shotgun blast, troubled times that come.

Speaker 415:19

My own dance

Speaker 415:23

A mountain

Speaker 415:27

My hometown.

Speaker 415:31

The mount

Presenter15:36

Bruce Springsteen and my hometown. Amanda Kozi Makwashi, in 1987, as you said, you returned to Lusaka to study law at the University of Zambia. You said that the experience of going back left a mark on your consciousness forever. Tell me more.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi15:52

Uh

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi15:53

It was at the University of Zambia where I met lecturers who just, I think they stimulated in me the hunger to know more about justice. You know, we looked at how Europe underdeveloped Africa, for example, the 1885 conversations and agreements. So this was the first time I was sitting together predominantly with the black students, African students, and the majority of course being Zambian students, and discussing the impact and the consequences of colonialism and the fact that we were the generation that was going to make a difference. That was the heart for me of my political consciousness because we debated everything, everything. Were you good at that?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi16:44

Yes, I loved it. I'm sorry. I should be a little bit more humble. No, tell the truth. No, it's not the time.

Presenter16:48

No.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi16:51

Yes, I loved it. You know, my social justice instincts were crystallized during that time.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi16:59

Yeah.

Presenter16:59

Zambia supported the anti apartheid movement in South Africa, and after his release Nelson Mandela actually came to the university campus to address the students there, you among them. Tell me about that day.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi17:09

Tell me about

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi17:10

I wish you were there. So do I. What was it like? Oh, it was amazing.

Presenter17:12

So do I

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi17:16

I'm telling this story like I actually met him face to face and said hello to him. I didn't. But just being there with the hundreds of students sitting outside and he got up and he addressed us, do you know, I can't even remember what he said.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi17:31

It was at the height of the movement for multi-party democracy in Zambia. All we were doing was screaming. The symbol of the multi-party democracy at the time was the hour has come. And so every time he would say something, as the students would raise our hands and just say the hour has come for democracy. I think I was just so moved.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi17:53

Yeah.

Presenter17:53

You were also during this period attending church as a Catholic, but I think you were looking for your your own spiritual home still. And I think it was an aunt who showed you a different direction.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi18:04

My uncle's wife, that's my mother's brother, now his wife, was a Seventh-day Adventist. And she was going for a funeral. And I went with her, I sat outside, and there was this group singing called the Revelators. They were singing, and the song that they sang was a vernacular song, a Bemba song. Translated, it means, Jesus is standing at the door and he's knocking, will you open the door for him? Afterwards, I asked my aunt, I said, I would really like to hear them sing. And she said, come to church with me. That ability to just get up and really speak your heart when you're talking to God. That's where I learned that. And it became my home church.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi18:49

It's time for your next disc, Amanda. What's it going to be? Jerusalem by Master K G?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi18:55

It speaks of a hope in God, so it speaks of a hope in Jerusalem, the heavenly Jerusalem.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi19:02

It's also very energetic and every time I listen to it I want to get up and dance.

Speaker 419:09

Jerusalem, Ichayalami.

Speaker 419:33

Uh nami.

Speaker 419:37

Zoomishila Do

Presenter19:41

Jerusalem Master KG featuring Nom Kebo Zikode.

Presenter19:47

So Amanda Kozi Makwashi, you graduated from university in 1991, having studied law, and later worked at the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa, a free trade organisation. But by the late 90s, Zambia was experiencing great political instability and you and your husband felt you had no alternative but to leave, so you came to the UK, to Coventry. That must have been such a wrench, especially as you were doing

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi20:12

Work that you really cared about? I had dreams, Lauren. I wanted I remember saying to my dad, I think that I'll I might be a politician. You know, I could I could be the president of the country.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi20:22

And I remember him smiling. This is a conversation that I used to have even with my mom as a little girl. What do you want to be, Amanda? Oh, I want to be president. What do you want to be? I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. So, this time when I was working for the common market for eastern and southern Africa, I really had big dreams for myself.

Presenter20:42

Yes, you'd completed your Masters at Warwick University and you had solid work experience, but getting a job in the UK just wasn't as easy as you'd hoped. What exactly were you facing?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi20:52

Sing.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi20:53

my qualifications, my work experience didn't mean anything. I remember a woman from a job agency that said to me, look, Amanda, even if you could just have some work experience, even if it's just cleaning experience, but here in the UK,

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi21:09

That

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi21:10

Will be better. We can put that on your record: that you've worked here as a cleaner, and we can take that and we can try and get you a job. So, in the end.

Presenter21:20

And Amanda, you trained to become a care worker and started doing agency work in local residential homes. And I believe that there's one story of one resident at that time that has stayed

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi21:32

There was a woman that was blind, a black woman, elderly, and I walked into her room that morning and the place was smelling so badly. And I looked around and I realized that her commode had not been emptied, I think, for something like certainly for more than 24 hours. And she was blind, and her food had just been placed next to the commode. And I walked in there and I said, Hello, good morning. She turned her face towards my voice and she said, I'm really sorry. I've just been waiting for somebody to come and clean. And so I said, Oh, don't worry. That's my job. That's why I'm here. And she said, You sound like an African girl. So I said, I am. And we talked and I helped her clean. And again, that thread for me of justice and dignity for our elderly people. I think during that time in Coventry, I describe it to myself as being broken. I was very broken. But I think God is the one that allowed me to be broken. And that's why I describe it as gracefully broken. Because I think.

Speaker 422:00

Mm.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi22:47

He wanted to remove any sense of entitlement from me, any sense of arrogance, and that's where I took my strength. I had nothing and nobody to rely on but God.

Presenter23:00

It's time for your next disc, Amanda. What are we gonna hear?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi23:04

What you're going to hear, I think, is a song that really speaks to that period of my life when I believe I was gracefully broken. And it's called You Know My Name, because I believe that God knows who I am. He knows my name.

Speaker 423:50

Oh, how you comfort me.

Presenter23:54

You know my name, Tasha Cobbs Leonard, featuring Jimmy Cravity. Amanda Cozy McWashie, you eventually were able to pursue your commitment to social justice in the many organisations that you went on to work for, from VSO International to the UN. And in 2018, you became the chief executive of Christian Age, which you have described as your dream job.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi24:15

Why?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi24:16

I think I needed this job, perhaps even more than it needed me, because I needed to bring my faith.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi24:25

into my work, and I needed to find that strength to be able to speak out. I think that I still have a lot of speaking out to do because there's a lot of injustice in the world.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi24:39

But I needed to start somewhere.

Presenter24:42

As I'm sure you know, Amanda, just three percent of charity chief executive officers are from black and minority ethnic groups. What message would you like your appointment to send out about what's possible?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi24:53

Yeah.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi24:55

People like me, being in such positions, should not be an extraordinary event or occurrence. But the message that I really want to send is especially to young people, young girls, young girls of color, that you can get there. But I'm not going to lie to you, it is not easy when there are only three percent at senior level and you are the only one when you go into meetings.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi25:26

It's very difficult.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi25:28

It's very difficult because it feels like, whether rightly or wrongly, it feels like I'm carrying the weight of black people on my shoulders, black women, black girls.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi25:39

And so when I'm in a

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi25:42

pl on a platform with others and nobody mentions the injustice in terms of racial injustice, I feel under pressure to mention it. How do you manage that?

Presenter25:54

Are you ma

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi25:56

It is exhausting.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi25:57

But what is the alternative?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi26:01

right? I've got a seat at the table. I owe it to not just people of color, I owe it to all of us as a society to use that platform and that space to call out any injustice.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi26:17

Yeah.

Presenter26:17

Amanda, it's time for your next disc. What is it, and why are you taking it with you today?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi26:21

It's a legendary song known by so many people, but I'm picking it today because I think that in all the injustices that I've talked about, part of the solution starts with each one of us.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi26:37

And for those of us who come from communities that have been downtrodden.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi26:43

We need to free ourselves and give ourselves the permission.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi26:47

to be the very best of who we are.

Speaker 426:51

Won't you help to say?

Speaker 426:56

These songs of freedom, cause all I ever have

Speaker 427:05

Redirs and songs

Speaker 427:09

Redemption song

Speaker 427:14

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our minds.

Speaker 427:23

Um

Presenter27:23

Bob Marley's Redemption Song, performed by John Legend. Amanda Cozy McQuashi, in recent years there has been a very active debate about charities and ways in which their fundraising may play into the so called White Saviour complex. I wonder what your view is on on that?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi27:41

issue

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi27:42

I think we needed to take a bit of time out just to ask ourselves.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi27:47

How did we contribute to the White Saviour mentality? Because we sh we did. The type of communication materials and resources that we put out.

Presenter27:59

So are you talking about that kind of image that w is very familiar of a a you know a white Westerner cuddling a a a black African child?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi28:02

Very simple.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi28:07

Absolutely.

Presenter28:07

Yeah.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi28:08

Yes. But I think the whole conversation around the White Savior mentality goes beyond the communication materials. I think it's much deeper than that. It speaks to a structural and systemic problem that means that when you look around the world,

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi28:26

Most of the people in extreme poverty are black or brown people. It speaks to that structural inequity that says that our systems, for example, our programs, have been designed on the basis of the conqueror and the conquered kind of model, and that we need to change that system. We need to build the resilience of local communities, really build their resilience, whether they're businesses, whether they're households, so that they can stand on their own two feet. That's what they want. They want dignity. I mean, who doesn't want that for their family? You want to be able to say, I get up in the morning and I go to work, or I go to my field and I farm. I want to send my children to school. I want them to have good health care. Those are natural dreams for anybody across the world. And that's the story that we need to be selling.

Presenter29:26

It's time for your seventh disc. Amanda, what are we going to hear and why have you chosen it today?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi29:31

This one is by Fantasia, Fantasia Barino. It's called I Believe. I chose this because people usually ask me, How do you get through all this? What has kept you going? And apart from my faith, apart from my support system.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi29:51

I just believe. I believe that there are greater things for me to accomplish. I believe that I'm a work in progress. I believe that God keeps on molding me and shaping me.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi30:03

I believe that I can make a difference.

Speaker 430:07

Feeling the stuff across the sky

Speaker 430:13

Shrimped a hundred thousand trees before, now I'm finally realized. You see, I've waited all my life.

Speaker 430:23

We're just coming to the ride and find no

Presenter30:40

I believe Fantasia. Amanda Cozy McWashie, last year you wrote your first book. Its title is A Question, but where are you really from?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi30:49

Why did you want to start there?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi30:51

That question is a question that I've been asked so many times. You try to be an insider and you're pushed back out. And that's why I chose that title as a question.

Presenter31:04

So it's written for the people who are asked the question. I wonder about the people who might ask it, perhaps as as they might see it innocently. What would you like them to take away from it?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi31:16

an awareness that difference is not a threat. Because it's not the first question, where are you from? Because that's a natural question. It's the second question and it's the butt.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi31:30

that I wanted to flag up.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi31:32

That, you know, take my response for what it is. If I'm speaking to you and you sound Welsh, I'm not going to say, Yeah, but where are you really from? No, if you say I'm Welsh, then you're Welsh. And so, for anybody that reads it, whether you are the one who asks or whether you're the one who is being asked, my message is simply this: We are all human beings with different stories to tell. We are not one thing and one thing only. And that's the beauty of humanity and humankind. And just take us as we are, judge us by something else, but not by where I'm from or by the color of my skin. Yeah.

Presenter32:12

So Amanda, I'm about to cast you away to our island. What do you think your biggest challenge there will be?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi32:17

I like my creature comforts. I like to sleep on a nice bed. And then I'm scared of snakes and creepy crawlers. Well, one more d

Presenter32:28

Disc before you have to go. So let's stay in the present before we send you off. All right. It's your final disc today, Amanda. What is it? And why have you chosen it?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi32:31

So let's stay

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi32:34

It's your favorite.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi32:38

It is a church hymn. It is well with my soul because I believe that it doesn't matter what you throw at me, it doesn't matter whether I'm scared of the creepy crawlers, it is well. Whatever lot is thrown my way, knowing that God is with me is enough for me.

Speaker 432:55

What have my love?

Speaker 433:02

Thou hast taught me to say it is well it is well with my soul

Speaker 433:24

It is away.

Presenter33:30

Wintley Phipps and It Is Well With My Soul.

Presenter33:34

So Amanda Cozy Mukwashi, I'm going to send you away to the island. I'm giving you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. You can also take a book of your choice.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi33:43

What will it be?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi33:44

Who moved my cheese?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi33:46

By Spencer Johnson. It's a motivational book. It's about change and it's about not closing your eyes to what is happening around you. If I tell you more, then you won't read the book.

Presenter33:58

You said you like your creature comforts. Luckily, I can give you one luxury item. What will it be?

Presenter34:04

I would like

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi34:05

to take double portion of quality street chocolates.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi34:09

Uh

Presenter34:09

You know I can cheat the tin so that there are more of your favourites in there. The caramel. Okay.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi34:15

Thank you.

Presenter34:17

And finally, which one of the eight disks that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves if you had to?

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi34:23

Oh, it has to be it is well with my soul.

Presenter34:26

Amanda Kozi Makwashi, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Amanda Khozi Mukwashi34:33

For having me.

Presenter34:57

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Amanda and I'm sure she'll learn to coexist with those creepy crawlies just fine. Over the years we've cast many charity workers away including Clare Horton, Sue Ryder, Sir John Wilson and Julie Bentley. You can hear their programmes on the Desert Island Disc's website and on BBC Sounds.

Speaker 435:16

The system.

Speaker 135:18

A new six-part thriller from BBC Radio 4.

Speaker 435:21

What do you want to do with your life?

Speaker 435:24

Do you want to spend your time glued to a screen, feeding the dopamine addiction you don't even know you've got, looking at pictures of things you'll never have, places you'll never go and people you'll never meet.

Speaker 435:35

Or do you want to exist in the real world? Do you want to be part of something? Do you want to use your body, the only body you'll ever have, gifted to you by millennia of evolution? Do you want to use it for something other than swiping and clicking and tapping and eating doughnut holes?

Speaker 435:55

If so, we may have something for you.

Speaker 135:58

The system. A new six-part

Speaker 435:59

Hot Thriller from BBC Radio 4.

Speaker 136:01

Available now on BBC Sounds.