Arsène Wenger

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. This is an extended version of the original Radio 4 broadcast and, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:47

My castaway this week is Arsene Wenge. He's spent his life in professional football, first as a player, then as a manager known for his extraordinary staying power and equally extraordinary success. Most coaches' tenure lasts a few seasons. He led Arsenal for twenty two years, through 1,235 matches, transforming the club and British football in the process. His upbringing on the French border with Germany in the shadow of World War Two instilled both his legendary discipline and his passion for sport. Football was a pleasure, an escape, and the non stop topic of conversation at the bistro his parents ran.

Presenter1:25

A thinker as well as a player, by the time he became a professional manager he'd studied politics and economics and spoke several languages. None of it went to waste at Arsenal. His revolutionary approach to conditioning famously brought ballet and broccoli to the gunners. He challenged the Premier League's inward-looking culture, recruiting new talent from all over the world. Moreover, he showed that success and style can coexist on the pitch. He says, I am a facilitator of what is beautiful in man. I define myself as an optimist. I can be described as naïve in that sense, but it allows me to believe, and I am often proven right. Arsen Wenger, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Arsène Wenger2:06

Thank you very much.

Presenter2:07

We'll start with beauty then. What is beautiful about football?

Arsène Wenger2:11

Beautiful is what is transformed into art. Art is supposed to get you out of your daily world that is quite tough, it's boring sometimes, repetitive, you know, and uh I think uh art transports you in a different world and that's what

Presenter2:24

Yeah.

Arsène Wenger2:28

football can do and sport can do in general.

Presenter2:32

And that idea of you believing in your dream, in that art behind the football, what does that bring to the experience for you?

Arsène Wenger2:40

Well, for me, it's as well that you want always to improve, you know, because in art perfection doesn't exist. And basically, sport is to do with your body what your brain wants. And that's a specific intelligence that not everybody has. So people who have that quality to express what their brain wants, you need to encourage them to express what they can give. And most of the time, you need somebody who helps you to do that. And I'm the guy. Not only can I help individuals to do that, but I can help a collectivity to do that.

Presenter3:17

And so many memories for you. You saw Arsenal through twenty two years. You won the Premiership three times, total of seventeen trophies. You're the most successful manager in the history of the FA Cup. You won it seven times. But the first time you walked out on the pitch at Wembley was a special moment for you.

Arsène Wenger3:33

It was because when I was a kid in my village we had no television. The first television we had at our home was when I was fourteen. So to watch a football game we had to go to the school in watching black and white, bring one pound and we could watch a football game. The football game won per year. Can you believe that today? It was the FA Cup final. So I was a little kid, seven, eight or nine years old. Now imagine this little boy walks out at Wembley and leads his team to play an FA Cup final. So it was something exceptional for me and that I never can forget.

Presenter4:12

You've got a reputation for hard work and extreme focus. How do you relax?

Arsène Wenger4:16

I relax by watching other managers suffer.

Arsène Wenger4:23

And think it's your turn, my friend. But uh now as well by watching football, you know, I love it so much. And uh it's easier for me when I watch other games to take a distance. Why does this player make this decision? What is the major mistake they make? And I enjoy it because uh football it's always unpredictable. It's not like theater. You go every night to the theater, it starts the same and finishes the same. You go every night to a football game, it's always different.

Speaker 24:38

Uh

Presenter4:50

I'm going to hear your music choices today. Let's get started. Tell us about your first choice. Why have you selected this for us today?

Arsène Wenger4:57

Bob Marley, could you be loved? Because I think Bob Marley created a music that will remain. It was a mixture of African jazz, what's called reggae, and uh he loved football as well, and his music is cool.

Speaker 45:14

We've got some mind of our own, so go to help if what you think it is in the trial.

Speaker 45:23

Would never leave us alone And in your darkness you must come out the light

Speaker 45:36

And below

Presenter5:50

Bob Marley and the Whalers and Could You Be Loved. Arsen Wenger, you were born in Strasbourg in 1949, the youngest of three children, raised in the nearby village of Dutlenheim, and you describe living in a world that was dominated by the cult of physical effort. Tell me more about that.

Arsène Wenger6:07

Because it was an agricultural village where eighty percent of people were farmers, but small farmers, and uh it was a survival agriculture based on physical force because you had no machines, everything was done with with your body and the horses.

Presenter6:23

No tractors.

Arsène Wenger6:24

No tractors. The tractors arrived when I was fourteen, sixty two, sixty three.

Presenter6:30

But

Arsène Wenger6:30

So in my young childhood you were respected when you were strong and when you were hardworking physically, you know. And uh that's where I learned effort.

Presenter6:40

Your parents, Louise and Alphonse, ran a bistro, Le Croix d'Or. What was it like?

Arsène Wenger6:46

It was a little bit strong where the farmers coming home from the fields had a beer on Sunday after the church for the rest of the week. At night people after work came in to have a beer and talk about football, you know, because we had the headquarters of the local football club. Incidentally the team was terrible. But uh that's why maybe the meaning of my life is football because at a young age I heard Oni talk about that.

Presenter7:10

Were you helping out at the at the Bistro?

Arsène Wenger7:12

Of course, I learned how to serve in a pistroy, beer, cigarettes, food, and it remained with me because when I go in a restaurant, I look at the waiters and I can tell you straight away who is good and who is less good.

Presenter7:27

Your parents worked incredibly hard. Did they ever have time for you to do things together as a family or or take holidays?

Arsène Wenger7:33

No, that's why I wouldn't advise anybody to open the bistro and have children, because at the time there was no family life, because the bistro was open every day of the year. It closed only one day from four o'clock in the afternoon until midnight. That was on Christmas, because the the village was dominated by religion. So that was no holiday.

Presenter7:56

So the village was dominated by church. How often did you go to Mass?

Arsène Wenger8:00

We went every day and after we went to school we had to confess every week. Honestly, sometimes I learned to lie as well because I didn't always remember what I did wrong. But you came out uh fresh. You always felt okay I've confessed now. God forgive me. I can start my life again.

Presenter8:20

It sounds quite austere. What was the impact of that environment on you? It must have shaped you.

Arsène Wenger8:26

I I think the impact for me was that you're never completely happy because you never do well enough and the religion makes you feel always a bit guilty because the Catholic religion is like that. But overall the desire not to be scared to work

Presenter8:43

You were a post war baby, of course, and being on the border the Alsace had suffered a huge amount in the years just before you arrived. Many locals were conscripted by the German army and forced to fight against their own people. And the trauma would still have been very fresh in your childhood. Were you aware of what the community had been through?

Arsène Wenger9:01

I had an early childhood know by the ATVS of course and my father was one of the guys who was incorporated by force by the Germans and as a French guy because Germany invaded France he did fight with the Germans on the Russian front you know and came back late forty-five with fifty two kilos and was one year between life and death but he never talked about it but in the bistro you could listen to stories and overall we were encouraged honestly in our young age to hate Germans but funnily it created more curiosity for me and I wanted to know what were these guys who live on the other side of the Rhine and as soon as I could I went to Germany and I discovered that there are people like you and me who just try to have a good life.

Presenter9:49

It's time for your second disc. What are we going to hear and why have you chosen this today?

Arsène Wenger9:53

John Lennon imagined because uh

Arsène Wenger9:56

I think it's a great song and Beatles are like a good football player. They make simple what looks very complicated, you know. And it's as well part of my childhood because suddenly this was the modern music when I was a child. Of course, today people will laugh at me when I say that, but for me, people with long hair suddenly who played this kind of music was revolutionary and did smoke, doped. It was inconceivable in my childhood, and that created a lot of interest.

Speaker 410:30

Imagine there's no heaven.

Speaker 410:38

See if you try

Speaker 410:44

Okay

Speaker 410:46

Between the words.

Speaker 410:51

Bubba's only sky

Speaker 410:57

Imagine all the people

Speaker 411:02

Living for today

Presenter11:11

John Lennon and Imagine. Arsenwenger, your village doesn't sound like the kind of place you were expected to leave when you grew up. What were your parents' aspirations for you?

Arsène Wenger11:21

Well, I don't know. My parents uh they wanted me to do well, you know. Uh I was at a big freedom because my parents were very busy, so at school I didn't work at the start and suddenly I realized I was not too stupid and uh I caught all back uh what I didn't do at the start and uh became quite a good student.

Presenter11:39

What was the turning point? What made you decide to do that?

Arsène Wenger11:43

I think to be conscious that I go nowhere like that and I refuse to be mediocre. I don't know exactly why, but always at some stage I thought I have to take control of my life there. So they were quite happy, my parents. But subconsciously, secretly, I always thought if I could spend my life in football, that would be a relief for me because I love to understand how the world works, but I don't want to spend my life in it.

Arsène Wenger12:14

You know

Arsène Wenger12:15

Football, when you're manager.

Arsène Wenger12:18

You speak to three people.

Arsène Wenger12:20

In every player is the child. The child wants to play, is completely in a prison. The teenager for him, it's all black and white. Are you stupid? Are you a genius? And the adult is a guy who lives with the internal suffering but has to find a compromise with the external world, you know. And if he's capable of that, he can find a balanced life. But when you're a manager, you speak a lot to the child, and the child is playing.

Speaker 212:40

And if you see the

Arsène Wenger12:48

And I tried not to forget that when I was a manager, because to be creative you have to enjoy things. If you want to do something, you're much more creative. And part of our job, despite all the pressure that is around us, is always to speak to the child. And I was a child who wanted to play.

Presenter13:05

Yeah. You were a street player.

Arsène Wenger13:07

completely street player because I had no coach until the age of nineteen. It was impossible for me to think I would spend my life in football. I respected every coach I had later.

Presenter13:18

And what skills do you learn as a street player? What what does it teach you?

Arsène Wenger13:21

Individual initiative, courage as well, because uh my brother was five years older, I wanted to play with my brother, but my brother played with people of his age, and when you're five years younger, you have to be brave to play, and uh I could convince my brother that if he takes me in his team, I can help him to win. So, that is a very good education. And in the street, you have to be shrewd.

Presenter13:44

So tell me then about the teenage you. You said teenagers see things in black and white. So you were a member of the Doolenheim football team.

Arsène Wenger13:51

Mm-hmm.

Presenter13:51

What did playing give you?

Arsène Wenger13:54

The sense that when you're a teenager you want as well to be loved by others and because I was good, everybody wanted me to play and were happy to be my friends and I feel I was belong to the community and the people encouraged me always. You know, it was enjoyment because this was 65, 66. It was a positive part after war because there were no job problems, no crisis, no COVID. Everybody had a good future, so it was optimism of dancing and playing and drinking and that's what life was about.

Presenter14:32

And uh

Presenter14:35

You said that you were very motivated to win. You wanted to make your make the village proud. How did you cope when you didn't win? Were you a good loser?

Arsène Wenger14:42

I was a very bad loser and uh honestly I am still today. Having said that in our job if you're a good loser you don't go far. But uh I I suffered a lot physically from uh hating the defeat, you know, and uh every defeat, every big defeat is a scar in my heart and uh sometimes uh I thought I will not survive in this job because I suffered really physically from from uh defeats.

Presenter15:08

How did it manifest?

Arsène Wenger15:10

I adapted because I started at uh thirty three years of age. I was at the top level. So maybe if you start at a very young age you adapt and uh your body adjusts to it.

Presenter15:20

It's time for some more music, Arsen. Tell us about your next choice today.

Arsène Wenger15:24

My next song is Léo Ferre is a French poet singer from the sixties and the song is avecle tent, that means with time. What I like is uh the poet that is in uh this song, but uh what I don't share uh it says basically time is a healer, but time is a healer as well of love, and that you finish alone in your bed and you don't love anymore and I I don't believe that, but the song is great.

Speaker 415:53

Avecleton.

Speaker 415:58

Avecle tent voir, tout san vair.

Speaker 416:01

Only le visa, je l'onnoublis, la voir, le queur, quen sabaple, c'est pas la pen d'alais, church ple loin, fau les c'est faires, et c'est trebien.

Speaker 416:23

Avec left.

Speaker 416:28

Avecle tent va, tout san va.

Presenter16:32

Leo Ferre and Avecleton.

Presenter16:35

Arsen Wenger, everything changed for you after a bad defeat to a team that was much better than yours. Now, despite being on the losing side, their manager, Max Hild, singled you out for praise rather than anyone on his team. What happened?

Arsène Wenger16:49

Yes, uh I lost seven one.

Arsène Wenger16:53

And it j just shows you how weird life can be sometimes, you know, because I lost seven to one and uh of course against a team that was a dominant team, League One team, you know. And he in the dressing room said, I've seen a great player today and one of my friends stood up and said, Thank you very much. He said to him, No, stop it, it's not you, he played on the other side. And so I got out of my village through him, and it was my mentor because he took me after with him and took care of me.

Presenter17:27

So this was nineteen sixty nine, then you joined AS Mutzig, the team that Max Hild coached, and that was when your career really took off. It was a big step up for you. How easily did you rise to the challenge?

Arsène Wenger17:38

Well, it was unexpected and uh the level was very high for me, but he straightway had confidence in me and it took me a while to adjust because I had never practised before and I became a good player in his side.

Presenter17:52

While you were at Mutzig, you also went to the University of Strasbourg, reading politics and economics. Why did you choose those subjects?

Arsène Wenger17:59

I went basically to university to understand the world I live in. I went one year to medicine, after I went to economics, after I went one year sociology. I was more curiosity and to use my my uh exams, you know.

Presenter18:15

And how did you manage studying and training at the same time?

Arsène Wenger18:19

Well, I uh did not a lot go to university. The people who went there gave me their lectures, you know, and I worked outside the university.

Presenter18:28

So you did it off your own bat?

Arsène Wenger18:29

Yes, I was used to that.

Presenter18:31

You went from Uttig to Mullhouse to Verban to R C Strasburg and you'd been fascinated by that club as a child. What were your feelings when you arrived there as a player?

Arsène Wenger18:40

Because it was an impossible dream to go to Strasbourg. At the time, for me, the professional football players were not born in the same world that I was and uh they were on another planet.

Arsène Wenger18:51

It is funny because when I joined this club I was off the moon and I couldn't even believe it.

Presenter18:57

What was football like when you were playing it? What did it feel like? How intense was it?

Arsène Wenger19:02

When you win, you are extremely happy, when you lose, you are extremely disappointed. And honestly, the game is no bigger revelator of the character of a person. Because when you go into a football game or do something that is important for you, you get rid of all your social skills and you become who you really are. And there you know if you can trust people or not, if you can rely on people or not. And that's why I think it it's a fantastic experience.

Presenter19:35

And what did your parents and the people that you'd grown up with make of you becoming a professional footballer?

Arsène Wenger19:40

I think early on they were worried and after they were proud. Maybe when I was twenty five, twenty-six they thought, Okay, he will uh he will have a good life and they were happy and I could help the family as well. So it turned slowly the f family over to football, you know.

Arsène Wenger20:01

Uh Uh

Presenter20:01

He won the round.

Arsène Wenger20:02

I want them round, yes.

Presenter20:04

It's time for some more music, Arsene. What are we going to hear?

Arsène Wenger20:06

This number four is Elton John. I like the fact that Elton John was a similar age to me and when I heard him at a young age I find it uh fantastic. And as well because he likes football and as well because I meet him um sometimes in the same restaurant in Nice and we speak a bit about English football and uh I think he deserves to be remembered.

Speaker 420:31

And you can tell everybody.

Speaker 420:35

This is your song.

Speaker 420:39

It may be quite simple but

Speaker 420:43

Now that it's done

Speaker 420:46

I hope you don't mind, I hope you don't mind that I put down the world

Speaker 420:55

How wonderful life is while you're in the world.

Presenter21:05

Elton John and your song. Any advice for Watford FC at the moment, Arsenwanger?

Arsène Wenger21:11

Look, uh I was surprised it went down last year.

Arsène Wenger21:15

because I think they had enough quality to stay in the league and they sacked the manager with two games to go and I was quite surprised at this decision. So I wish that they come back because it is a team who can be in the Premier League.

Presenter21:29

Well, let's get back to your coaching career, Arsene. That began while you were playing for Strasbourg. You were put in charge of the training centre and then became head of the youth team. You were only thirty at the time and coaching young men eighteen, nineteen years old. The transition from playing to coaching can be very tricky. How did you find it?

Arsène Wenger21:49

interesting and challenging, but I was so passionate, you know. I I uh

Arsène Wenger21:54

I didn't count the hours. I worked on exercises. I worked morning, afternoon, evening. At the time I was scouting as well. So I sometimes I traveled three, four hours by car to watch a used team game and come back at night and in the morning on the training ground. So it was different time where it was more all down to your own initiative, you know. Today it's all more structured. At the time football was not rich. So the quality of a club depended more on the individual initiative.

Presenter22:25

And you had a very interesting approach at that time. You brought in a psychiatrist to meet players individually every week. Why?

Arsène Wenger22:32

Because I felt that the mental aspect of a young player is uh very important and I thought I can help them.

Arsène Wenger22:38

to develop, you know, because once you're eighteen, nineteen, it's important to push yourself as far as you can and I wanted to understand better what is going on in the brain of a young boy who has a possibility to make a career. And what we did quite well, we forced them every day to analyze that day. I forced them every day to say how did you feel today, physically, how was your concentration, how do you feel uh tactically we did, how did you think you did. So even when I meet them today, sometimes they still tell me that helped them a lot in their life, to think about what they did and if they did well or not.

Presenter23:25

In 1984 you took up your first managerial post with the League One club Nancy and moved on to become the manager of Monaco in 1987, winning the League Championship in your first season there. You were very hands-on, your eye for detail was meticulous. I've seen a diet sheet that was prepared for the players before and after the match and I know that you were fastidious about the pitch. You said the groundsmen must have been very pleased when you left.

Arsène Wenger23:49

Yes, because in Monaco we had a problem on that front, but to be successful there was quite important because it was at the start of my career and I had an advantage. I knew exactly what I wanted and I had the players who were capable to execute it. And then it makes a good chemistry and the results come.

Presenter24:11

So when it came to expressing yourself, what was your temperament like back then?

Arsène Wenger24:16

I was uh very demanding at that age, you know, and uh sometimes not flexible enough and young, quite uh confident, but I believe I had always a a right mixture between confidence and humility, but very demanding on the players and so sometimes they were fed up with me, but it worked.

Presenter24:39

You met Annie Bruster House while you were there and you'd go on to marry and have a daughter together. How difficult was it to have a job that was so all consuming, so pressured, and build a relationship alongside that?

Arsène Wenger24:51

That was my weakness, and uh I must say that I gave so much time to my job that uh it was very difficult. Today, sometimes I think I have been a monster, you know, because I gave so much and I didn't develop all the skills. I had plenty of friends that I kept my whole life, but as well for my family, I say overall I was not up to the level that uh you would expect from a guy like me.

Presenter25:22

Do you have time to make up for it these days?

Arsène Wenger25:24

Yes, I try.

Presenter25:26

It's time for some more music. Disc number five. What's it going to be and why have you chosen this?

Arsène Wenger25:30

I've chosen this because I have that in common with some people. I cherish them very much in France and as well because Evie d'Amand it tells you a little bit that we still love each other, but it's not exactly the same like before, you know. It shows that if you don't take care of love, it slowly vanishes.

Speaker 425:52

E dam.

Speaker 425:56

They feed a mom.

Speaker 426:01

Don't suck her.

Speaker 426:03

Soon is that gone.

Speaker 426:09

Feed a mom.

Speaker 426:14

You see the mall

Speaker 426:18

Henri uncle.

Speaker 426:20

Counter be div, like

Speaker 426:27

Bacco Mavon

Presenter26:29

Franzcal and Evie Demont. Arsene Wenge, you moved to Japan to manage Nagoya Grampus 8 before being headhunted by Arsenal in 1996. When you arrived, you were considered an unknown quantity by many, certainly in the press. They quite rudely wrote about Arsene Who. How did the fans and players receive you?

Arsène Wenger26:50

Well, I would say uh was a scepticism around me, but uh you have to accept when you go abroad, you know, you uh you don't expect the red carpet. It has changed now, but at the time you have first to prove that you have the level to be there. And uh honestly,

Arsène Wenger27:03

I said always to the players as well, look, you come from abroad, you come here, if it is to do what a local guy does, stay at home, you have to be conscious that you have to do more. And I was in that mode of thinking. And in fairness, I think the club was quite crazy to appoint a guy like me, because one was one of the most traditional clubs in England. And to take a completely unknown guy, I think they were crazy these guys.

Arsène Wenger27:30

But I had the advantage to benefit from it.

Presenter27:33

Yes, and you brought in many innovations in including persuading the team to give up their Mars bars for broccoli.

Arsène Wenger27:38

Properly.

Presenter27:40

How did that go down?

Arsène Wenger27:41

Well, uh it was players who were all thirty, but they were intelligent and uh they thought if I could extend their career by doing what I told them, uh maybe I would do it. And they tried. You know, I remember uh going to the first game, they chanted at the back of the coach, We want our mouse bars. And uh so at half time we were one nil up and nobody talked and uh it was like at the funeral. And I said to Gary Lewin, the physio, What's wrong? Why does nobody say a word in here? He said, We're hungry.

Speaker 227:51

Yeah. Mm.

Presenter28:17

You know, we take it for granted now that place had very strict, healthy diets, but it was revolutionary.

Arsène Wenger28:23

At the time, yes, and that is now accepted all over the world, you know, I told them that you need a global approach. What is visible, that means on the training ground, and what is not visible is the way you prepare mentally, the way you prepare by sleeping well, uh, eating well, and uh all that makes performance. A club is basically there to create an environment that favourizes the performance of the players.

Presenter28:23

At the time

Presenter28:47

Before you got there, there was quite a well established drinking culture at the club. When George Graham, the previous manager, was in charge, the Tuesday Club there was very much seen as a bonding experience for the players with the manager. How did they react to your way of doing things?

Arsène Wenger29:02

It was not always easy, but they understood. And you know, I was lucky as well, because at the time Tony Adams had just come out and said, look, I am an alcoholic and I went to rehab and I don't want to drink anymore. And I must give him absolute credit, because till today, he has never drunk any drop of alcohol. That is a remarkable strength of character. And I could convince the other players that if we want to give him a chance, we cannot drink in front of him, you know. So that helped me a lot. But when he didn't play, the pressure was still there to have a drink after the game, you know. So I didn't compromise. I think when you come from outside as a foreign manager, you have to respect the local culture and know what you can compromise on and what you don't tolerate at all. And they smell very quickly, I was not ready to tolerate an alcohol.

Presenter29:58

What would the sanction have been if people

Arsène Wenger30:00

I could find or not play them. When you have manager, when you pick the team, you have ultimate power. And one of the difficulty of our job is on every Friday before the Saturday game, we make jobless people over the weekend who feel useless, who hate you, and on Monday you employ them again and you say to them, Look, we do now like nothing happened and you give your best again. And that's the difficulty of our job.

Presenter30:27

You won the Premiership for the third time with a team that became known as the Invincibles. For forty nine consecutive matches they didn't lose. Why was it important to you to win the Premiership without losing a game?

Arsène Wenger30:39

Because I think it's difficult to measure the quality of a manager. So I thought the perfection of my job would be one year not to lose a game. And I must say it was an exceptional experience to play 49 games is one and a half years. You imagine one and a half years without losing a game. So it was just enjoyment. Sometimes I thought, why am I well paid to do this job? It's so simple, so enjoyable, you know. After when you lose your first game, you know why you're well paid.

Presenter31:12

So that game fifty was

Arsène Wenger31:14

We game fifty. First of all, we lost the fifty, but it was not deserved. And sometimes I think as well I was born forty-nine. And maybe that was my destiny to lose the fifties game.

Presenter31:26

Ah, because it was the year of your birth.

Arsène Wenger31:29

Yeah.

Presenter31:30

I could see that fifty still rankling though.

Arsène Wenger31:32

Of course, because it was against our rivals at the time and united.

Presenter31:37

It's time for your next disc, Carson. What are we going to hear and why have you chosen this one?

Arsène Wenger31:41

It's Elvis Presley because was as well the style of my childhood, but especially because it's the song where Arsenal walks out on the pitch, The Wonder of You.

Speaker 431:50

When no one else can understand me

Speaker 431:55

When everything I enter it is wrong

Speaker 432:00

You give me hope and consolation

Speaker 432:05

You give me strength to carry on

Speaker 432:09

And you're always there to win the hand.

Speaker 432:19

As the one there

Speaker 432:24

The Wonder of You.

Presenter32:28

Elvis and The Wonder of You. That is Arsenal's walkout song, Arsen Wangerso, 1235 times at least. You've heard that.

Arsène Wenger32:38

It's many games, many suffering, many sleepless nights, and many happy days as well, I must say.

Presenter32:43

So you've got to take that one to the island. Now, Arsen, the rivalry between competing managers is often obvious pitch side, and you regularly clashed with Sir Alex Ferguson, former Manchester United manager. Those exchanges can look pretty visceral to people watching. What was it like for you?

Arsène Wenger33:01

Well, it was normal for me because it was him or me and overall you fight for your life when you go out there.

Presenter33:08

How would you describe your relationship these days?

Arsène Wenger33:12

At the time I was seen as the intruder there, busy coming disturbing my superiority here in England, you know, and I was the guy who wanted to show him that we can beat them. With time passing on, I think it became respectful and uh friendly, but uh we went through some difficult times.

Presenter33:32

I believe you said he knows his wine better than you do.

Arsène Wenger33:35

He does. That was a big surprise. He has more knowledge about red wine than I have.

Presenter33:41

You did say that you were offered the job of Manchester United manager. Now I'm assuming that was when Sir Alex indicated he'd retire in two thousand three?

Arsène Wenger33:45

I'm assuming.

Arsène Wenger33:49

I cannot tell you exactly when because I'm quite

Arsène Wenger33:54

Keen not to talk about it.

Presenter33:56

Can you tell me why you turned it down?

Arsène Wenger33:58

Because uh my heart was at Arsenal and uh at the time David Dean who was my friend was still at the club. I couldn't imagine me uh moving out of the club. But anyway Arsenal was the love story of my life and since I stopped at Arsenal I didn't go anywhere, you know. I thought uh in England it will be Arsenal and nobody else.

Presenter34:21

It also sounds like loyalty is a very important quality to you.

Arsène Wenger34:24

Yes. I come from Alzheimer's, you know, with German influence. When you sign, nobody forces you to sign. Once you have signed, you respect what you have signed. And that was the way I was always doing.

Presenter34:37

You had so many successes at Arsenal, seventeen trophies in all, but one that eluded you was the Champions League, the premier contest in Europe, and you qualified for the tournament nineteen years in a row, reached the final once, but were beaten by Barcelona in two thousand six.

Arsène Wenger34:51

Mm-hmm.

Presenter34:52

How do you cope when a dream doesn't come true?

Arsène Wenger34:56

It's difficult, but at the end of the day, you are guided by dreams our whole life, and some come through, some don't come through. And you have to accept that you never win everything you want to win, and you have to live with what you didn't achieve. The most important is to be faithful to what is important for you. That means find the meaning in your life and walk on the road of your life with the values that look important to you. After that, you win, you lose. It's part of life.

Presenter35:31

Since you entered the game it has changed considerably. The money paid to players has grown beyond the wildest dreams of the players of thirty, forty years ago. They get paid vastly more than their managers now. What's your view on that, I wonder?

Arsène Wenger35:44

Well, I'm not against the money, because I did fight my whole life to that players get well paid, so I'm happy for them.

Arsène Wenger35:51

The players are not responsible for the money they get, it's the success of football that produces the money. The only thing I insisted always, life is about give and take, and don't forget to give. If you get big money or small money once you sign, give your best to your club.

Presenter36:11

In two thousand six, the club left its home of ninety three years Highbury and relocated to the new, much larger Emirates Stadium. And the move meant that you had to cope with financial constraints. The club then didn't win another trophy for eleven years. How did the move affect you?

Arsène Wenger36:16

Yeah.

Arsène Wenger36:28

Well, I guided the club through this period that was sensitive, but we still uh produced fantastic games and fantastic football. We won the championship, but as well we finished five times second. When you finish second, you're not nobody. We were consistent. What is the most difficult, but we had not anymore the experience and uh maturity to win in the decisive moments of the season. That was until uh twenty fourteen where we could buy again better players because the burden of the debt was diminished then.

Presenter36:59

Yes, you paid off the debts that you accrued in creating the new stadium, but that is a substantial burden and a pressure to carry with you over that time.

Arsène Wenger37:07

I took that challenge because I thought it's another way for a manager, you know, you have an inference on the style of play, the trophies you win, and on the individual development of the players, but as well on the quality of the development of your club, on the brand, on the values that you carry through the world. And I am very proud that I'd achieved that part as well, and Arsenal became a renowned club all over the world because it gave this chance to young players and had a positive image.

Presenter37:37

And what about the change from the old stadium to the new one on the team?

Arsène Wenger37:41

First of all, you take you a while to feel completely at home. You have to recreate a history. And we lost part of the soul of Highbury because Highbury was Highbury. And I think the difference between these two stadiums shows the evolution of the game. The distances between the supporters and the club and the team became bigger. And you see that physically at the Emirates because you had to respect the security rules. The other club sent more money and we lost a little bit that feeling that we were at home there.

Presenter38:12

Yeah, was it hard to say goodbye?

Arsène Wenger38:15

It was very hard to say goodbye, and I must tell you, I drove a few times in front of Highbury just to see this listed stand again and uh to remember a little bit uh what happened in there.

Presenter38:28

What was that like? I think they're apartments now.

Arsène Wenger38:31

It was uh nostalgia, you know, and uh good memories.

Arsène Wenger38:36

Very good memories.

Presenter38:37

Let's have some more music. It's your seventh. What are we gonna hear?

Arsène Wenger38:41

Jacques Brell, who I love, Nemekita Pas, says, don't leave me. You know, it shows they never know who is the most happy, those who love or those who are loved. And I think as well he was extraordinary presence on stage and a great singer.

Speaker 438:58

Number ball.

Speaker 439:02

Il fautublier tour.

Speaker 439:05

Pe soublier, qui san fui des jar

Speaker 439:10

Oublier le tent, des malenton du et le tent, per dieu.

Speaker 439:18

A savoir, comont.

Speaker 439:21

Oublier c'estur, quiture, parfoi, accoude, pour coi, le que, le bonaur.

Speaker 439:33

Number.

Presenter39:38

Oh yeah, no complete critic. Jacques Brell, nobody better, no maquita pas. Arsen Wenge, you left Arsenal in 2018 after twenty-two years there and you'd last won the FA Cup in twenty seventeen, one of only three trophies since you moved to the Emirates Stadium. You've said that you wanted to see out your contract and you were clearly very sad to leave. How difficult was it to do so?

Arsène Wenger40:03

It was difficult because when you're sixty-nine years of age, you don't imagine going somewhere else as a manager. I turned all the best clubs in the world down to go to the end of my contract and the end of my mission with this club. So it was difficult because your car who drove automatically to the training center has to stay at home and you with him. And to cut that link was very, very difficult. But on the other hand, I decided to change completely and I'm very happy about that.

Presenter40:35

In 2015 you were quoted as saying I always treated Arsenal as if it belonged to me. How do you feel about the club now? You've got a little bit of distance on it after leaving.

Arsène Wenger40:43

Yes, I still support Arsenal, you know, I still love uh this club. When I see the red and white walking out, I'm not the same man anymore, and uh I still say we when I talk about the club. That's life, you do your best, and after other people come in, what you want is that they are faithful to the culture of the club and uh carry the values that you have built, that the club continues and continues its development as well.

Presenter41:11

How do you think they're going to do this season?

Arsène Wenger41:13

I think I have a s a feeling that we will do very well.

Arsène Wenger41:17

And it looks to me that it will be a very open championship. I don't think there is at the moment any dominating team in the league and that we have as much potential than the other team, so we might have a a chance to do supremely well.

Presenter41:33

In this new chapter of yours, you're currently FIFA's head of global football development of both the women and the men's games. And of course, we're in the midst of a global pandemic right now. What do you think are the key challenges facing the sport at the moment?

Arsène Wenger41:47

The key challenges is the gap between Europe and the rest of the world. It's as simple as that. So I created teams who go into the two hundred countries who signed up for my programme to detect exactly the needs and respond with FIFA to provide the needs they have to develop the game. On the women's front, it's not only to give them coaches and structure championships, but as well pitches, because uh in some countries they have no pitches to play because the boys already play on Saturday, Sunday and it's fully booked.

Presenter42:23

And what about the challenge of coronavirus, which is facing everyone?

Arsène Wenger42:26

The coronavirus is a big worry because financially the smaller clubs suffer. The best players have been grouped in the best clubs and the richest clubs and their local support has gone down. So the smaller clubs in England suffer a lot financially. You have ninety-two clubs in England. You take the twenty Premier League out, seventy two clubs. Of these seventy-two professional clubs, sixty-five lose money. That cannot last forever, so we have to sit down and find a solution to help them to survive.

Presenter43:01

Your daughter Leah is studying for a PhD at Cambridge University at the moment. She's a a scientist. Does she share your love of the beautiful game?

Arsène Wenger43:09

She loves sport, yes, not football, but uh she's in track and field. She is competitive like I am. Uh I wonder if she's not even more than I am.

Presenter43:19

I know that you've said neuroscience is football's next frontier. Why is that?

Arsène Wenger43:24

Because we arrive at the end of the physical uh development of a players and we cannot go much further. And maybe uh the speed of decision making and how quickly can we analyze the situation around us uh will be the next levels we can experience to develop.

Presenter43:41

So does this mean Leah might be coming into the family business at some stage?

Arsène Wenger43:44

At some stage?

Presenter43:48

And recently, you've been reflecting. Obviously, we've been talking today, looking back over your life and career. You've written your autobiography. I wonder how your definition of success has changed, if it's changed, since your early years?

Arsène Wenger44:02

I would say uh success is uh finding the meaning of your life and be capable to to live it, you know. After that uh it's never enough. But if happiness is to have a life you want to have, I can say I I've been very happy until now because I uh I had the life I wanted to have.

Presenter44:26

It's time for one more disc before we cast you away to the desert island, Arsenwenger. What are we gonna hear?

Arsène Wenger44:32

Frank Sinatra My Way. It is a song that has been written in France. A Canadian singer heard somebody sing it. I think it was Claude Francois in France. And he took that song and sang it in a private party where Frank Sinatra was. And Frank Sinatra said, oh, I like that song. And it became his song. And it became a worldwide success. This kind of coincidence is sometimes linked with success.

Speaker 445:01

I did what I had to do.

Speaker 445:07

Saw it through

Speaker 445:10

Without exemption.

Speaker 445:14

I plan

Speaker 445:16

Each jot a course.

Speaker 445:19

Each careful step

Speaker 445:23

On the byway

Speaker 445:27

More

Speaker 445:29

Much more than this.

Speaker 445:32

I did it

Speaker 445:34

My way Yeah

Presenter45:38

Frank Sinatra

Arsène Wenger45:40

My way. No, that is important. What is success in life is to do it my way.

Presenter45:45

You've certainly done that, Arsenwenger, and it is time to cast you away to your desert island. I know that your fitness regime is still quite strict these days.

Arsène Wenger45:55

Nice.

Presenter45:55

Will you keep that up on the island?

Arsène Wenger45:57

Of course. You know, I I am at an age you do not try to improve any more, but you try to be in the same shape when the day before. But you have to exercise for that.

Presenter46:08

What's your regime?

Arsène Wenger46:09

My regime is get up in the morning, let's do it straight away and after you can uh do what you want, you know, you have done it.

Presenter46:16

Kick back with some coconuts on the island, okay.

Presenter46:18

Now, of course, we'll give you the books to take with you when we cast you away: the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and a book of your choice. What would you like?

Arsène Wenger46:26

I would say Around the World in Eighty Days from Jules Verne, who is a French writer, and his book is fascinating because it shows the power of imagination.

Presenter46:38

You can also have a luxury item for pleasure or sensory stimulation. What will that be?

Arsène Wenger46:43

A ball. A ball was a friend of my life, you know. He was with me everywhere. And if I go out in a corridor and there is a ball there, I have to touch him, you know. So that is uh my companion.

Presenter46:57

Well, it's yours for the island. And finally, if you had to save just one of the eight tracks that you shared with us today, which would it be?

Arsène Wenger47:05

I would say avecleton from Leo Ferrier. Because it says basically that time is a good doctor. It heals you. It heals every wound and you have to get over that in life. It's not only success, it's as well suffering. And you have to give time to time sometimes.

Presenter47:26

Arsen Wenger, thank you so much for sharing your Desert Island discs with us.

Arsène Wenger47:30

Thank you very much.

Presenter47:46

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Arsen, and I am delighted to imagine him whiling away the hours on his island.

Presenter47:52

Playing Keepy Uppy With Is Football. You'll have heard Arsene praise former Arsenal Club captain Tony Adams. Well, he was cast away by Kirsty Young in 2010 and Ian Wright was my guest last year. You'll also find editions with David Beckham, Gary Lineker, Trevor Brooking and Jackie Charlton in the Desert Island Discs back catalogue. You can hear all of those episodes on BBC Sounds. Next time my guest will be the illustrator Helen Oxenbury. I do hope you'll join us then.

Speaker 248:35

From BBC Radio for a new series from Intrigue, May Day.

Speaker 248:41

On November 11, 2019, James Lemezre was found dead in Istanbul.

Speaker 248:47

He was the ex-British Army officer who helped set up the White Helmets in Syria. Ordinary people trained to save civilians in the aftermath of bomb attacks. The biggest heroes in an ugly war. But lots of people here in the UK say all the White Helmets videos are staged. Part of the greatest hoax in history. I'm Chloe Hedgemothé and I've spent the last year investigating the White Helmets and James LeMessura. Who they are, who he was and why he died.

Speaker 249:20

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