Sir Keir Starmer

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Presenter0:05

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:43

My castaway this week is the leader of the Labour Party and the leader of the opposition, Sakir Starmer. He set aside a high-profile career as a human rights lawyer to go into politics, becoming an MP in 2015. And since he was named after a founding father of the Labour Party and its first parliamentary leader, there was arguably a touch of destiny about his appointment to the post seven months ago. Though even he might wonder about the timing. 2020 has been a long year in politics. As it began, Labour's bruises were still fresh from their fourth election defeat in a row, the worst in 85 years, and the Equality and Human Rights Commission was investigating anti-Semitism within the party. The fallout and infighting sparked by their highly critical report continues. On top of that, he faces the delicate task of leading the opposition's response to the government's handling of the coronavirus pandemic, considering the national interest while still holding the Prime Minister to account. He's a man of many contrasts, a sharp-suited lawyer who loves football, a former student radical who ended up a Queen's Council, and the former shadow Brexit Secretary who was a passionate Remainer. He says, people are constantly trying to pigeonhole me. I've done human rights cases all over the world. I've played a part in the peace process in Northern Ireland. I was director of public prosecutions. I do not need to have a label. I just want to think for myself. It's worked so far. Sakia Starma, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you so much. So you were elected leader of the Labour Party in exceptional times, of course, and the job of the Leader of the Opposition is a very difficult one at the best of times. As a leader, what has been the biggest challenge for you personally?

Sir Keir Starmer2:18

Well, 2020 has been a challenge all round, just hearing you list them there as a reminder of what we've all been through in 2020. I've now been leader of the Labour Party for seven months. I haven't yet made a speech to anyone other than to a camera. So my acceptance speech was made in my living room and my conference speech was just to a camera in Doncaster. So I'm yet actually, the one thing you expect to do as a Labour leader is to address a number of people. You imagine that moment when you go from campaigning to become leader to be leader of the Labour Party and you imagine a conference hall full of people. I had my armchair to aim my speech at.

Presenter2:57

Governments around the world are struggling to contain coronavirus while protecting their economies and having to make painful choices every day. How much sympathy do you have for the Prime Minister and his Cabinet?

Sir Keir Starmer3:07

Oh look, I think it's really difficult. I think any government would struggle with this pandemic. When I became leader, I made it clear that we would be constructive in the sense that where we thought the government was getting it right, we would support them in that. And so, for example, on the lockdowns, we've supported them on that. But where they're getting it wrong, we've got to challenge them. And they've got it wrong in quite a number of places, and we've had to challenge them hard. Now, it's hard to get it right. We discuss this on a daily basis, and in the end, the public will decide.

Presenter3:35

As a former barrister yourself, you know, you know about public speaking, commanding a room, but how different, I wonder, are the skills required of a politician? I know you've only done the speeches to your armchair so far, but have you had to learn how to let some emotion in?

Sir Keir Starmer3:48

Yeah, they're completely different. I mean, if you're a lawyer, it's based on the facts, there's proper argument, there's a judge that makes decisions. In politics, it's completely different because it's about a different art of persuasion.

Presenter4:00

Some commentators have said that you're you're too loyally, that you lack charisma.

Sir Keir Starmer4:04

Oh, they've said a lot worse than that.

Presenter4:06

Well, what do you mean?

Sir Keir Starmer4:06

Think of it when they when they do. Look, it's water of a duck's back. I mean, I am who I am. I know what I am. I know what I believe in. And I know what I've got to do, and that's what I'm focused on.

Presenter4:17

Obviously, there are plenty of opportunities for you to talk about politics on other programmes, so today I am rather hoping to hear more about Keir Starmer the Person. So we're going to start with the music. So obviously I'm really hoping that your choices today are entirely your own and that you haven't, you know, held a focus group to get approval for these tracks first. Did you show any of your team the list today?

Sir Keir Starmer4:36

These are entirely my own choices. As we go through this list, if and when you run into anybody I've known for a long time, they will tell you this is the genuine Kiostama list.

Presenter4:47

Alright, let's dig in then. Track one. Tell me about it.

Sir Keir Starmer4:49

Well, this is Doby Gray Out on the Floor, which is a defining Northern Soul song. I love Northern Soul, and this reminds me when I'm on my island of my sort of early days in London with a group of friends in a really grotty flat above a sauna and massage parlour that kept interesting hours. And I was sort of trying to make it as a lawyer.

Sir Keir Starmer5:12

Having a lot of fun and forging lifelong friendships. So it evokes a particular period in my life and a love of Northern Soul.

Presenter5:19

And can you dance? I mean politicians that can dance is a short but very important list.

Sir Keir Starmer5:21

Touch.

Sir Keir Starmer5:22

True.

Sir Keir Starmer5:25

Flips, spins and backdrops are what you need for Northern Soul. Now, a few years ago we had a number of goes at that, but I would not be foolish enough now.

Sir Keir Starmer5:35

For each night, I'm really moving The band is swailing right, I feel like grooving The chicks are out of sight

Sir Keir Starmer5:50

Uh

Speaker 15:51

The crowd is in tonight, begging for more.

Sir Keir Starmer6:00

Yeah, my kids

Presenter6:03

Doby Grey and out on the floor. So Kier Starmer, you stood for and won the leadership on a platform of party unity, but in recent weeks a bit of factionalism has returned, exacerbated by the recent Equality and Human Rights Commission report about anti-Semitism in the party. It was pretty damning and led to former leader Jeremy Corbyn's suspension. So your aim is a united Labour.

Presenter6:25

How on earth do you get there from here?

Sir Keir Starmer6:28

My aim is a united Labour Party and we in the Labour Party have to learn that if we spend all of our time taking lumps out of each other we're never going to persuade anyone to vote for us. So I'm determined to unite the party. I'm equally determined that we will root out anti-Semitism in the party. The report we had last week from the Equality and Human Rights Commission was a damning verdict, a real day of shame. A commission that was set up by a Labour government found that the Labour Party had breached equality law. You can't get much lower than that and I'm absolutely committed to rooting out anti-Semitism and that means taking tough decisions.

Presenter7:05

There are some on the left of the party who see Jeremy Corbyn's suspension as an indication that there's going to be a quote 1980s style purge of its left wing. How do you answer that?

Sir Keir Starmer7:15

No, there isn't. I've no interest in that. And on the day that the report was published, I wanted us to, as a party, honestly acknowledge what had gone wrong, to apologise in no uncertain terms, to renew the commitment to root out anti-Semitism and to draw a line and move forward. So I didn't want that day to end in the way it did. I had no intention of purging anyone. I have no intention of purging anyone. I want the Labour Party to be a broad church. We are far better when we're united, but if we don't tackle anti-Semitism, then we don't deserve to win.

Presenter7:49

Would you like to see him reinstated?

Sir Keir Starmer7:51

Well, I'm not going to comment on that particular case. One of the things that the Equality and Human Rights Commission said very, very strongly was the leader of the Labour Party shouldn't be getting involved in individual cases and individual decisions, and I'm not going to be tempted to do so.

Presenter8:07

As well as being a matter of principle, the EHRC report must have had a personal resonance for you. I know that your father in law is Jewish and and that your family observes some Jewish traditions. So how did you feel when you read it?

Sir Keir Starmer8:18

Well, the two were divorced in this sense, that it is perfectly true that my wife's father is Jewish, his family are Jewish, they came from Poland, and my wife's mum converted when they got married. So there is a long tradition, family religion and faith there. We observe some of the practices, for example, Friday night prayers, occasionally with my wife's father. Her mum sadly passed away earlier this year, because my wife in particular wants our children to know the faith of her family and her father's family. But that was far removed from my sort of in-principle decision to tackle anti-Semitism. For me, that's a matter of absolute values and principles.

Presenter9:03

It's time to take some more music. This is your second disc today. What are we going to hear and why have you chosen this?

Sir Keir Starmer9:09

It's Beethoven. It's the Pastoral Symphony, Symphony No. Six, and it's the Fifth Movement. And I've chosen this because this was one of my dad's favourite bits of music, and so it will remind me of him.

Presenter10:24

Part of the fifth movement of Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony performed by the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Herbert von Karian.

Presenter10:32

Kirstelma, you were brought up in Oxted in Surrey, the second of four kids. Your dad, Rodney, was a toolmaker. Tell me a little bit more about him.

Sir Keir Starmer10:40

I don't often talk about my dad. He was a difficult man, a complicated man. He kept himself to himself. He didn't particularly like to socialise, so he wouldn't really go out very much. But he was incredibly hardworking. He worked as a toolmaker on a factory floor all of his life, and my enduring memory as a child was him, as he did, go to work at 8 o'clock in the morning, came home at 5 o'clock for his tea, went back at 6 o'clock and worked through till 10 o'clock at night, and that was five days a week. But also, he had this utter devotion and commitment to my mum. My mum was very, very ill all of her life. And my dad knew exactly the symptoms of everything that might possibly go wrong with my mum. He knew exactly what drugs or combination of drugs or injection would be needed. He stopped drinking completely, just in case he ever needed to get to the hospital with her. And then on the many occasions that she was in hospital, he would stay with her the whole time. He wouldn't leave the hospital. He would sleep on any chair or whatever was available.

Presenter11:51

So your mum, Josephine, she she was suffering from an autoimmune condition called Stills disease, which is hugely painful. Your father completely devoted to her, but you did use the word difficult to describe him, and it it sounds like he was dealing with a lot and also not home so much because of working all the time. Were you close? Did you spend much time together?

Sir Keir Starmer12:11

I wouldn't say we were close. I understood who he was and what he was, but we weren't close.

Sir Keir Starmer12:16

And I regret that and um you know, like many parents I suppose I'm determined that my relationship with my own children will be different to that, but that remarkable commitment to my mum was really incredible. But for my dad, my mum would never have lived as long as she did live.

Presenter12:34

So tell me more about her your mum Josephine, she had been a nurse.

Sir Keir Starmer12:38

She was a nurse, yeah, and a very proud nurse with it. She got Still's disease when she was 11, which is an attack on the immune system. They told her when she was 11 that she'd be in a wheelchair by the time she was 20 and she wouldn't be able to have children. It'd be downhill from there. As it happens, the steroids as a drug was discovered while she was a teenager and they put her on steroids. What that gave her was the ability to walk in her 20s and to have four children, which she didn't think would happen. But in the end, the combination of Still's disease and steroids, which have long-term effects, absolutely took their toll and she paid a heavy price as she got iller and iller. She couldn't use her limbs. She was very, very prone to infections. And as young children, we spent a lot of time in and out of high dependency units with my mum, thinking we're going to lose her. But I remember one occasion when I was about 13 or 14, my dad phoning me from the hospital and saying, I don't think your mum's going to make it. Will you tell the others?

Sir Keir Starmer13:44

And that was tough. That was really tough. So, you know, we pulled through that as a family. My mum was absolutely incredible. And incredibly, she never moaned, if you ever ask my mum, how are you? The stock response, even if she was in a high dependency unit, would be, I'm all right, love, how are you?

Presenter14:05

And what do you think, looking back now?

Sir Keir Starmer14:07

My dad died a couple of years ago. My mum sadly died just weeks before I got elected into Parliament. And I look back with pride. I look back with regret. My mum in the end couldn't talk, couldn't move. And so we've got two young children, but my mum had never spoken to my children.

Sir Keir Starmer14:29

Because she was too ill.

Presenter14:32

How do you think what your mum went through changed you?

Sir Keir Starmer14:35

I think it made me

Sir Keir Starmer14:38

value determination and courage and to

Sir Keir Starmer14:43

and to sort of see people for what they really are.

Sir Keir Starmer14:46

It's time for your next disc. What's it gonna be? This one is Jim Reeves, Welcome to My World, and this was my mum's favourite song.

Sir Keir Starmer14:57

Welcome to my world.

Sir Keir Starmer15:03

Won't you come on in?

Sir Keir Starmer15:09

Miracles I get

Sir Keir Starmer15:14

Still happen now and then.

Sir Keir Starmer15:21

Uh

Speaker 215:21

Step into my heart

Presenter15:25

Jim Reeves and Welcome to My World. So, that for your mom, Keir Stormer, Josephine, when would she listen to that?

Sir Keir Starmer15:31

Well she would listen to that. When we came home from school we'd arrive home and she would make us jam sandwiches and she would have Jim Reeves on in the background and that's an image of a mum that sticks with me forever.

Presenter15:43

Your parents named you after Keir Hardie, a founder of the Labour Party. They were Labour supporters. It's quite an unusual name. Did it earn you any interesting nicknames at school?

Sir Keir Starmer15:53

Plenty of nicknames at school. You can think of all the things for yourself that rhyme with Keer. And I have to say at school I was saying, why on earth did you have to call me Keer? Why can't you call me Pete or Dave or something like everybody else?

Presenter16:05

How politically active was the household? Were there lots of debates around the dinner table, arguments, shouting at the telly, that kind of thing?

Sir Keir Starmer16:11

No, they were labour through and through, and that was their values. But we didn't have discussions around the kitchen table, we didn't have guests very often to the house just because my dad was working most of the time, he didn't particularly want to socialise, and he wasn't a man for debating. His view was the view, and that was it. Again, that made life difficult, made me much more prepared, I suppose, as I grew up to countenance other views. But most of what particularly my dad thought was not up for grabs for discussion.

Presenter16:42

So where did your politics come from, and what sparked your interest?

Sir Keir Starmer16:45

I got interested in politics at a very early age and joined the East Surrey Young Socialists when I was sixteen, which was the youth section, if you like, of the late of the local Labour Party. I have to say in East Surrey there weren't very many of us. I think it numbered about four in total.

Presenter16:57

So thank you.

Presenter16:59

How did the home counties react to your radical politics and what were you campaigning for?

Sir Keir Starmer17:02

What were you campaigning on? Pretty negatively as we sort of marched round East Surrey up long drives telling people that we thought nationalisation was the answer after we'd explained our views and asked, well, how will you be voting? There weren't so many that were persuaded with what we're putting. But we passed resolutions, we took it all very, very seriously. But it was hard work back then.

Presenter17:25

What were your hopes for your life?

Sir Keir Starmer17:27

Well, I hoped to go to university. I was thinking I wanted to do politics until my parents said, no, you want to do law. And I said, all right, I want to do law. I arrived at university. I had never met a lawyer. I didn't really know what lawyers did. I don't think I knew the difference between a solicitor and a barrister. But, you know, this was, for me, this was an incredible journey. Boy from Oxted goes to the city of Leeds to Leeds University. It was an incredible journey and a really important one to me. And Leeds is a place now very, very close to my heart. It's time for your next disc. What's it going to be? This is Orange Juice Falling and Laughing. And I've held Orange Juice and Edwin Collins close for many, many years, still play this song, but this absolutely captures those early years at University and Beyond.

Speaker 218:22

Be badly night.

Speaker 218:26

Take a nice moon, I only see what I want to see.

Speaker 218:33

Avoid I contact the coast.

Speaker 218:40

What could I do?

Sir Keir Starmer18:43

See your pine teeth smelling at me.

Presenter18:49

Orange juice and falling and laughing. So Kier Starmer, as you've just said, you went to Leeds University to study law at your parents' suggestion. Why did you choose human rights law? Because I think that was your choice.

Sir Keir Starmer19:00

Yeah, it was. I became absolutely fascinated with the idea that at the end of the Second World War and the atrocities of the Second World War, that the countries around the world came together and made commitments to each other to honour human rights. And I became fascinated and really taken with the idea behind human rights, really. It's not so much the individual rights, but it's the human dignity that sits behind human rights, how we treat individuals, how we treat them fairly, equally.

Presenter19:32

Were you driven? What kind of student were you?

Sir Keir Starmer19:33

Oh, I think I was. I I there's no getting away from it. I'd love to joke and say no. But I've I've always been pretty driven and hardworking. But in a sense, once I'd discovered something like human rights, I so enjoyed it that it didn't it didn't feel like the burden it might otherwise have been.

Presenter19:51

So hardworking that it almost costs you your television at one stage.

Sir Keir Starmer19:54

What happened? This was a story about the infamous flat in Archway Road where I was busy working with one of the early computers there, I think it was an Amstrell of some sort, bashing away deep in thought. And then one of the other people in the flat came back up and said, Kia, what are you doing? Did you not notice? And my flatmate had intercepted two people walking out of our flat with our television. I'd been oblivious to the fact that we were being burgled. I was actually in the next room whilst they were taking the television without any knowledge of what was happening around me.

Presenter19:55

What is that?

Presenter20:26

Around this time, you're also one of the editors of a radical magazine called Socialist Alternatives.

Sir Keir Starmer20:31

What did you cover? Oh, we were out to change the world, as you can imagine. But unfortunately, more copies of that magazine ended up under my bed than actually distributed to the world at large.

Presenter20:40

On behalf of Socialist Alternatives, you interviewed Tony Benn for one article and in another piece you denounced centrism and argued that the future of the Labour Party lay with the grassroots left. I mean, you you sound a lot like the people who give you a hard time now.

Sir Keir Starmer20:48

Future of the Labour Party

Sir Keir Starmer20:54

Yeah, I mean I said a lot of things then. Tony Ben was an incredible person to interview. I went to his house, he had a house in Holland Park, and he let me sit in Keir Hardy's chair. There was a wooden chair that he'd got from Keir Hardy, which he let me sit in in order to interview him. But yeah, no, I was very much of that view at the time. Said some things that were daft, of course, but you know, that's part of it.

Presenter21:16

Daft, do you think?

Sir Keir Starmer21:17

Well, you know, what I've learned is that the important thing in life, in a sense, is to hold your ideas up to the light and see if they withstand scrutiny. But that takes time. And certainly I started by thinking I had all the answers. And as I've grown up, I've learnt the power of saying, I don't know. Let's have a look at that. And that's been a very important lesson for me.

Presenter21:38

And are you prepared to say that as a leader?

Sir Keir Starmer21:40

Oh no, I'm prepared to say it and do say it. I think it's very important to say I don't know. The best decisions that leaders make are those that are fully challenged by other people. And I think the power of saying I don't know, the power of looking at a decision and saying, is that actually right? is underestimated.

Presenter21:59

You were called to the bar in nineteen eighty seven, and three years later you co founded Doughty Street Chambers. You were also human rights adviser to the Northern Ireland Policing Board when it set up a new police service under the Good Friday Agreement. That is an incredibly challenging brief, isn't it? How did you approach it?

Sir Keir Starmer22:14

It was implementing some of the Good Friday Agreement proposals, particularly that the Royal Ulster Constabulary should become the Police Service of Northern Ireland, that that Police Service of Northern Ireland should comply with human rights and properly reflect both communities. I was an advisor. I was on the ground sometimes outside the Ardoyne shop fronts in North Belfast on the 12th of July when the parades were happening. There were all sorts of things happening on the ground. We were there with our clipboards observing what was going on and suddenly golf balls were being thrown and there were petrol bombs and I was thrown in the back of a police van for safety.

Presenter22:50

It's time for your next disc. What are we going to hear?

Sir Keir Starmer22:52

Well, this is the Edwin Hawkins singer's Oh Happy Day and this is very much about Northern Ireland because there's an expression in Ireland used a lot which is happy days as an expression. It's a fantastic expression and it just reminds me of all the challenges we went through, the ups and downs and this song reminds me of that.

Speaker 223:18

Uh

Speaker 123:18

Oh a happy day

Speaker 123:27

When he wore When Jesus washed shames away happy day

Speaker 123:43

Oh I have

Presenter23:45

The Edwin Hawkins Singers and Oh Happy Day

Presenter23:49

Keir Stahmer, in two thousand eight you were appointed Director of Public Prosecutions. You were a surprise choice. You'd never prosecuted a case in court. You were not known as a fan of state power, and as a lawyer you'd represented pull tax protesters and striking miners. How much soul searching did you have to do before you accepted the job?

Sir Keir Starmer24:07

Well, there was a lot of thinking about it and talking about it, but I had spent quite a lot of time challenging the state, the police prosecutors, for not doing their job properly, and I felt that actually stepping up and taking responsibility was important.

Presenter24:29

Of course, when you're the DPP, it's the cases that you don't prosecute as much as the ones that you do that attract criticism. I wonder if there are any that you regret not prosecuting?

Sir Keir Starmer24:39

Well, there are a number of cases that were very, very difficult because the evidence wasn't there. That was hard. There was um a decision in the case of Ian Tomlinson, who was the person who was knocked to the ground by a police officer, and vital medical evidence wasn't available. In the end, we were

Presenter24:56

He was the newspaper seller who collapsed and he'd been struck by an officer during the G twenty summit 2009.

Sir Keir Starmer24:57

Yeah, he's not a good idea.

Sir Keir Starmer25:01

Yeah, and the doctor who carried out the post-mortem chucked away the sample so that when we really needed it, we couldn't use it. And I remember the sinking feeling I had when I realised what the doctor had done and that that vital piece of evidence was not going to be there. In the end, we were able to prosecute it using different evidence. And in the end, we didn't secure a conviction in that case.

Presenter25:23

There was a lot of criticism over that case in particular. I mean, how did you cope with public scrutiny and very vocal criticism at times about your decisions?

Sir Keir Starmer25:32

It takes a bit of getting used to the scrutiny, the journalists outside your house, the photographers. It takes getting used to and it's very, very uncomfortable when it starts. It's very uncomfortable most of the time, but it's particularly uncomfortable when you're not used to it. And I'm very protective of my family and I've got two young children, a 12-year-old boy and a nine-year-old girl, and I want to protect them from that insofar as I can. Obviously, that's not entirely possible given the nature of my job then and my job now.

Presenter26:00

When you became DPP, a man called Paul Bint started impersonating you. How did you find out what was happening?

Sir Keir Starmer26:08

This is the man who answered adverts, Lonely Heart adverts, I think in the Sunday Times, but as me. So he answered as Keir Starmer, the DPP. And he had two affairs going on at the same time as me. And he used to steal the jury from one of the women and give it to the other, and vice versa. He was eventually caught because he was taking lots and lots of taxes in my name and saying, put it down to Keir Starmer at the Crown Prosecution Service. Could you see how he'd worked this story? I mean, was there a.

Presenter26:37

Is the resemblance that strong?

Sir Keir Starmer26:39

Well, I would like to think not. And during the trial I think it was put to one of the women that he had on a fair with that he didn't look particularly like me, to which, if I'm right in recalling, she said, Well, everybody can have an off day.

Presenter26:55

It's time for your next disc. What are we going to hear?

Sir Keir Starmer26:57

This is Three Lions, the iconic football song. In order to really appreciate this song, you had to be in Wembley in the crowd. I was in the upper tier for the semi-final of Euro 96 when we're playing Germany and for the whole stadium to be jumping up and down, rocking to this.

Speaker 127:19

That's all the shows.

Speaker 127:22

Jewels remain still gleaming.

Speaker 127:26

But the years have passed.

Speaker 127:30

Never stop me

Presenter27:50

David Bedeal, Frank Skinner and the Lightning Seeds with Three Lions. So you you love playing football as well as watching it. Have you learned anything from A to Side that you can take with you into other areas of your life?

Sir Keir Starmer28:01

I don't know about that. I've been playing football every week since I was ten and still do, and still see myself as the sort of driving force of midfield, but that just brings chuckles now from those that I play with.

Presenter28:15

So Keastarma, back to your career. You became an MP in twenty fifteen, and Jeremy Corbyn appointed you Shadow Brexit Secretary in twenty sixteen. You described yourself as a passionate remainer and said you were devastated by the result of the referendum. How did you maintain a working relationship with a leader who held a more neutral position on Brexit?

Sir Keir Starmer28:34

We worked actually quite well together because this was always a difficult issue for the Labour Party. The whole country had been split. But Jeremy and I actually worked very closely, very well together on it. And just as I would say now, the pandemic we're in is not easy for any Prime Minister, including our Prime Minister. So equally I'd say for Jeremy Corbyn, Brexit wasn't easy for any opposition leader.

Presenter28:57

But I mean there were media reports of frayed tempers and even stand-up rows.

Sir Keir Starmer29:01

Nearly all exaggerated, most of them not true. Actually, of course there were tense discussions going on, but most of the time we had our challenges and our discussions in private, and we hammered out an agreed position.

Presenter29:14

Last year, you fought to include a second referendum in the Labour Manifesto with Remain on the Ballot, and there are many in the party who thought that stance cost Labour the election, that you alienated your traditional supporters who were worried about their jobs and they just want to see the back of Brexit. Do you have any regrets about the way you handled the issue?

Sir Keir Starmer29:31

Of course, I acknowledge this came up on the door in different ways across the country. In the north-west, north-east, and parts of the Midlands, it came up in a very negative way. I've got to accept that, and that's a fair challenge. Obviously, it was differently received in places like Scotland. There was never an easy position for our party in that election. But I think the important thing now is to recognise that we've left the EU, leave-remain is over, and now we have got to aim for the best deal we can have with the EU and move forward and build on that.

Presenter30:03

How much would you say your politics have changed over the time that we've been talking about, reflecting on you as a sixteen-year-old handing out leaflets in the streets of Oxted?

Sir Keir Starmer30:11

I think, you know, like most people, I started off as the radical who knew everything and I'm now much more open to ideas, much more questioning of ideas. I think the fundamentals in many respects are still there.

Presenter30:26

Do you still consider yourself a socialist?

Sir Keir Starmer30:28

Yes, I do, yeah.

Presenter30:30

It's time for some more music, your seventh disc, penultimate choice, what is it?

Sir Keir Starmer30:34

This is Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 5, Second Movement. This is chosen by me because it is beautiful and it's the music that my wife walked in to at our wedding and she was beautiful as well.

Presenter31:48

Part of the second movement of Beethoven's piano concerto No. five, The Emperor, performed by Jean Ephlam Bavuse and the Swedish Chamber Orchestra.

Presenter31:58

Keir Starmer, for a while there was a rumor that you were the inspiration for Mark Darcy, the dashing human rights lawyer in Bridget Jones's diary, but when Helen Fielding, the book's author, was my guest on Desert Island Discs earlier this year, I'm afraid she made it clear that you weren't. How long did it take you to come to terms with the disappointment?

Sir Keir Starmer32:16

It didn't take me very much time at all. You know, of course it would have been lovely, but I never claimed to be. I always said to people, she'll tell you the answer, and she gave it to you.

Presenter32:25

I'm about to cast you away to a solitary existence on your island, then. How do you think you'll cope?

Sir Keir Starmer32:30

Oh, I find it really hard because, you know, we just heard the beautiful piece of music that my wife came into at our wedding. She's an incredible, warm, wonderful woman who is my complete rock. And the idea of me being there on my own fills me with all sorts of trepidation. And of course, we've got two fantastic children. I mean, I always think I'd like a bit of peace and quiet, but I'm not sure that's going to last very long.

Presenter32:51

You're vegetarian, so I know that fish and seafood will be off the menu, but I I think you can cook. How capable are you?

Sir Keir Starmer32:56

I like cooking. I actually find it really relaxing though on this island I'm not sure quite how I'm going to get on because obviously being a vegetarian I'm going to have to stick to presumably grass and some bits and bobs off trees. But yeah, I'd give it a go.

Presenter33:10

Alright, it's time for your final disc today. What are we going to hear and why are you taking this with you?

Sir Keir Starmer33:14

This is Bridge Over Trouble Water and it's Artist for Grenfell featuring Stormsey and it's a reflection on Grenfell and a reminder that for all the factional positions, party positions people take up, in the end politics is about people and Grenfell brought a shudder I think to everybody. So it is a reminder about what politics is really about. I chose Stormsey because my children love Stormsey and so it will remind me of my children in this beautiful song.

Speaker 133:47

Yeah, I don't know where to begin, so I'll start by saying I refuse to forget you. I refuse to be silenced, I refuse to neglect you. That's for every last soul I've been grantful, even though I've never even met you. Cause that could've been my mum's house, or that could've been my nephew. Now that could have been me up there, waving my white plain tea up there. With my friends on the ground, tryna see up there. I just hope that you rest and you're free up there. I can't feel your pain, but it's still what it is. Went to the block just to chill with the kids. Troubled waters come running past. I'ma be right there just to build you a bridge, yo.

Presenter34:20

Oh we re

Presenter34:23

Artists for Grenfell, featuring Stormsey Bridge Over Troubled Water. So Keir Starmer, it's time to cast you away. With reading material, of course, I can give you the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take another book of your choice. What will you go for?

Sir Keir Starmer34:36

I'm going to take a detailed atlas, hopefully with shipping lanes in it, so I can get myself off this island. So you're going to try and escape. I'm going to try and escape. So a big atlas with real details so that I can work out my way to get off the island and get back to my wife and my children.

Presenter34:42

Is he gonna try and escape?

Presenter34:44

That's okay.

Presenter34:53

That was arguably a practical item there by contravening the rules at this late hour. That's a curveball. You're going to have to promise me that you'll just look at it for objective piecewise work.

Sir Keir Starmer34:56

Contravening the rule

Sir Keir Starmer35:01

I'll look at where I am, yeah.

Presenter35:04

You can also have a luxury item, what would you like?

Sir Keir Starmer35:07

Oh, a football. I've got to take a football with me. It'll obviously be slightly different with how anyone to play against, but I'd love to have a football.

Presenter35:14

And finally, which of these eight tracks would you rush to save if there was only time to rescue one from the waves?

Sir Keir Starmer35:19

I would take the Beethoven piano concerto number five because that would remind me of my wife.

Presenter35:29

Sakia Storma, thank you very much for sharing your Desert Island Discs with us.

Sir Keir Starmer35:33

Thank you.

Presenter35:47

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Sakir. We've cast away many politicians to our island, including Boris Johnson, Nicola Sturgeon, Vince Cable, Theresa May, and Ed Miliband. They're all available to listen to on BBC Sounds. And Kia will be pleased that next time my guest will be former Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 236:19

From BBC Radio for a new series from Intrigue, May Day.

Speaker 236:24

On November 11, 2019, James Lemejura was found dead in Istanbul.

Speaker 236:30

He was the ex-British Army officer who helped set up the White Helmets in Syria. Ordinary people trained to save civilians in the aftermath of bomb attacks. The biggest heroes in an ugly war. But lots of people here in the UK say all the White Helmets videos are staged. Part of the greatest hoax in history. I'm Chloe Hedgemetho and I've spent the last year investigating the White Helmets and James LeMessurer. Who they are, who he was and why he died.

Speaker 237:04

Subscribe to Intrigue Now on BBC Sounds.