Sinead Burke

Speaker 10:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Presenter0:05

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:44

My castaway this week is the activist and teacher Sinead Burke. Education and fashion have been her twin passions since childhood. Her life story is one of style and substance. Sinead knew she wanted to teach when she was at primary school and soon after started to ask for back issues of Vogue magazine for her birthday. After training as a teacher, she launched a successful fashion blog and last year appeared on the cover of the magazine she had been collecting since childhood, honouring her pioneering campaigns for equality and inclusion for people who, like her, have disabilities. Sinead has achondroplasia, a genetic condition which causes restricted growth, and is three feet five inches tall. At 29, she's taken her message to the White House at the invitation of the Obamas and a little closer to home to the Irish President, advising him as part of his Council of State. She says, I grew up with parents who always told me that anything I wanted to do could be achieved. I may have to find a different route to do it because of my disability, but it didn't mean that obstacles couldn't be overcome. It was incredibly empowering at such a young age to get that understanding. Sinead Burke, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Sinead Burke1:54

This is such a treat and an honor, and I can barely believe that I'm here. But thank you so much for that wonderful introduction.

Presenter2:01

Well, I think it's probably wise that we start with some of the language. How language is used is is very important to you. You said that it can be a force for good and it could be something less so. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Sinead Burke2:14

When I was growing up, I used to define myself and describe myself as just Sinead.

Sinead Burke2:19

and never really seeing myself as disabled or using that language. But actually what I was doing was erasing my disability and attaching shame and stigma to it, probably because I had been taught to do that by the world. And I am now very proudly a disabled woman.

Sinead Burke2:36

And for me as a little person, that's the terminology that I prefer.

Presenter2:40

You successfully campaigned to get the Irish Language Dictionary to include a direct translation of Little Person. Tell me how that came about.

Presenter2:49

Yeah.

Sinead Burke2:49

Part of being a teacher and a primary school teacher in Ireland, you have to study art.

Sinead Burke2:54

And I remember being kind of seventeen doing my final year exams and having to go into the oral exam, and the first question that you're usually asked in that environment is Inisch dam fuitze? Three Irish words that mean tell me about yourself.

Sinead Burke3:07

And I remember being nervous, not necessarily about the exam, but because I couldn't describe myself in language that I was comfortable with.

Sinead Burke3:16

And I ended up calling myself a dwarf, not a word that I use in English, but had to pass the exam. And I was afraid of making something up and being marked down. And when I finished school and was in college and graduated, I kind of thought, you know, there has to be a way to change this. Language has to evolve. So boldly, I just emailed Veriz Nogrelge, who is the government department responsible for the Irish language. And the direct translation of Little Person is Dina Bjug, and within 48 hours it was in the dictionary. And sometimes you just have to ask.

Presenter3:43

Come on.

Presenter3:46

You're hugely passionate and very persuasive. We can hear that. And you're also not shy about buttonholing the people that you need to get on your side, celebrities, journalists, people that are kind of crossing your paths at parties and different events. Where does the confidence to do that come from? Have you always had it?

Presenter4:04

Yeah.

Sinead Burke4:04

I describe myself as an extroverted introvert. I am never happier than being in my own company with a book or listening to some music. But the world has made me be an extrovert. You know, from the earliest of ages, I was the centre of attention because I would often be the only person who looked like me in a room or in a space. And I knew from the earliest of ages that if I wanted to thrive in this space, I would have to get really good at stepping outside of my own discomfort and introducing myself. Hi, I'm Sinead. I'm four years old. I think we should go play in the playhouse. Do you want to come? And that was just a thing that I practiced, and I've had two decades of practice, so I'm really good at it now.

Presenter4:47

We've got an incredibly uplifting playlist to look forward to, Sinead, I have to say. Tell us about your first choice today.

Sinead Burke4:53

My first choice is by the extraordinary Lizzo.

Sinead Burke4:57

like a girl, because she is proud of who she is and the body that she lives in. And her anthems tell us, however you define yourself, whatever way you feel, that's valid, that's real, and you're enough as you are.

Speaker 15:11

Woke up feeling like I just might run for president. Even if there ain't no precedent, switching up the messaging, I'm about to add a little estrogen. By my way.

Speaker 25:22

Whip by myself. Pay my rent by myself. Only exes that I care about are all up in my karma zones. I don't really need ya. I'm a co

Speaker 15:31

Holly Cock at home alone. Pad bitch diamonds in my collarbone. Yeah, yeah. Buy my whip by myself. Pay my rent by myself. Sugar spice.

Presenter5:40

Lizzo and Like a Girl. So, Sinead Burke, you've described the public bathroom as a symbol of human rights. Why? What does its design represent to you?

Sinead Burke5:50

The right to dignity is so important, and yet so often not considered.

Sinead Burke5:55

My experience of going to a public bathroom in a shopping centre.

Sinead Burke5:59

Is really difficult and complicated. You know, from the moment I kind of get to the women's bathrooms and to the cubicles, I probably can't reach the lock on the door.

Sinead Burke6:08

And often I will take off a coat and try to stand on it, or use my phone to close the lock, or try to step on a bin. And when I use the bathroom and come out, you know, I also can't reach the sink.

Sinead Burke6:18

Particularly at a moment where we've just experienced a pandemic, we're realizing that those points of hygiene are more crucial than ever. And actually, what I need in that moment is a lower sink. And I think we have become so focussed designing a world for one specific type of person that our lens has been so narrow. And actually, if we widened it to include a whole host of people.

Sinead Burke6:40

we'll realize really quickly that that has benefit and value for everybody.

Presenter6:45

You talked about attracting attention. What form does it take and how do you handle it?

Sinead Burke6:51

Uh

Presenter6:51

Uh

Sinead Burke6:51

Uh

Presenter6:51

Uh

Sinead Burke6:51

Yeah.

Presenter6:51

Yeah.

Sinead Burke6:51

Uh

Presenter6:51

Trust.

Sinead Burke6:51

And all sorts from

Sinead Burke6:54

Being pointed at, stared at. People will often take photographs or videos without your consent. I had an instance in Dublin late last year where I was just walking down the street.

Sinead Burke7:05

and two sixteen year old boys walked past me. It was a Tuesday afternoon, about twelve o'clock, and about thirty seconds later one of them leapfrogged over me from behind, jumped from the ground over my head to the other side of me all the while.

Sinead Burke7:21

His accomplice recorded the entire thing on his phone. I mean, the first person I rang was my mum, and I was just crying. They just didn't even see me as a person. I think with my teaching background I realized that if those two young boys were caught

Sinead Burke7:36

The only thing that they would learn in that moment is, well, not to get caught, they wouldn't actually learn about the human impact that it had.

Sinead Burke7:43

So I called a friend, and he was working for this community organisation in the north side of Dublin, and I said how do we get into every school in the area in which this happened?

Sinead Burke7:53

He kind of laughed at me and I said, No, no, I'm being entirely serious.

Sinead Burke7:57

And we did. I went to every primary school and every secondary school in that area and I spoke to hundreds, if not thousands, of students and shared parts of my life. I gave a TED Talk in New York in 2017. Those students, particularly at the age of 16, have to sit the junior cert in Ireland. And my TED Talk was part of their English exam. And they had to answer questions on my life for their exam. So let's just look at that full circle there. You jump over a person in the middle of the street and then she arrives into your school 48 hours later and you're like, oh no, oh God. And then your entire English exam result is based on you answering factually correct questions and answers based on her life. I mean, it's quite a conundrum.

Sinead Burke8:42

It's time for your next piece of music, Sinead. What's it gonna be? Disc number two, why have you chosen it? My TED Talk was probably and still is one of the scariest things that I've ever done. I was in New York on my own and I couldn't remember it. There was no auto queue, and I remember it just feeling violently unwell about the whole occasion.

Sinead Burke9:00

A half an hour to go, I stood in front of the mirror, and told myself no one.

Sinead Burke9:05

Can give this talk better than you can.

Sinead Burke9:08

Because this is your story. So why don't you just enjoy it? So I went and I did my TED Talk and it changed my life. But straight after I finished speaking, the musical guest came on and it was Sophie Tucker, an amazing electro-pop duo based out of New York. And they sang the song called A Woo. About six months later, they came to Dublin to perform and I performed this song with them on Tucker's shoulders. Now, Tucker used to be a basketball player, so he was around and is around six foot seven in height. So on his shoulders, it was both the most dangerous thing and the most fun thing that I've ever done. But this song holds a really special place in my heart.

Presenter9:44

I did not raise a wrist, I know I did not capture it It came, it went, it conquered quick

Presenter9:55

I was there and then I quit I know I did not raise a wrist I know I did not capture it It came, it went

Presenter10:10

Sophie Tucker featuring Better Lem with Awoo. So Sinead Burke, you were born in Dublin in 1990. Your dad Chris was an actor. Tell me a little bit about him.

Presenter10:20

Like me, he's also a little person.

Sinead Burke10:22

Yeah.

Sinead Burke10:23

And when my parents were having children, because my mum is average height and my dad is lol.

Sinead Burke10:27

For all of their children, there was a 50-50 chance if they would have somebody who was little or if they would have somebody who was tall. And of the five of us, I'm the only one with dwarfism. And I had this incredible example of my ability to survive and thrive because my dad had done. And my dad is an extrovert too. I think also because the world made him be one. And he is my greatest advocate, along with my mom. And they are just the most supportive people. And I think if I am in any way a success, it is genuinely because I'm a loved child.

Sinead Burke11:00

My parents in nineteen ninety seven made a documentary for Ireland's national broadcaster called It's a Small World, and thankfully, due to the age in which it was made, does not exist on any iPlayer. And it was this day in the life of my family and I. And from it

Sinead Burke11:17

Lots of other families got in touch and says.

Sinead Burke11:20

We have a daughter or a son or I look like you, our family looks like yours.

Sinead Burke11:25

It was a reaction that my parents really weren't expecting.

Sinead Burke11:29

but felt a responsibility to do something about that, and in nineteen ninety seven founded Little People of Ireland, and still to this day voluntarily run that organization. You know, they have not just changed my world by building this community, but a whole country's.

Presenter11:44

That balance between protecting you and over protecting you. How did they find that idea of encouraging your independence while also looking out for you?

Sinead Burke11:53

My parents, if they did anything, was encourage me to have my own voice. You know, I talked before I could walk, which is not a surprise to anybody who knows me.

Sinead Burke12:01

And they were always just so confident in me. I had this bizarre arrogance about what I could do with the world, because they never gave me their fears.

Sinead Burke12:11

And then when I got a bit older they knew when it was time to step back.

Sinead Burke12:16

When it was time for me to

Sinead Burke12:18

Fight those battles myself.

Presenter12:20

What's family life like when you're all Together.

Sinead Burke12:22

Yeah.

Presenter12:23

You're at home right now.

Sinead Burke12:23

Chaos. Pure, absolute chaos. You know, that's where I become more introverted and my siblings become more extroverted, but it's great.

Sinead Burke12:33

Time for your next discs you need. What are going to be and why.

Sinead Burke12:37

One of the tracks that I can't listen to without thinking of my parents is this one. Bronska Beats Small Town Boy. It's one of their favorites and I wouldn't be able to do Desert Island Discs without honoring them.

Sinead Burke13:13

Dogger

Sinead Burke13:17

Yeah.

Presenter13:19

Bronsky Beat Ann's Small Town Boy. Sinead Burke, when you were just eleven you were offered the opportunity to have surgery to lengthen your limbs. What would that operation have involved?

Sinead Burke13:31

It would have involved the deliberate fracturing of my lower leg bones, and over the course of a year I would have been responsible through pins in my legs, and through twisting those pins a quarter of an inch every day, stretching that fracture apart further, so that new marrow and new bone could grow.

Sinead Burke13:51

resulting in hopefully three to six inches of height. And in terms of my parents' bravery, this was one of the moments that still shines brightly for me, because they didn't try to make my decision for me.

Sinead Burke14:03

They listened to my concerns or questions or interests, they helped me book appointments with clinicians.

Sinead Burke14:12

But they told me that it had to be my decision. And kind of the more I thought about it, the more I realized that actually.

Sinead Burke14:18

The reason why I would be doing it would be to skew slightly closer to the world's definition of normality.

Sinead Burke14:24

And that might make it easier to make friends. But at 11, I decided that if people didn't want to be my friend because I was a little person.

Sinead Burke14:33

They weren't the kind of friends that I needed in my life. And I just told my parents and said, I've decided I'm not getting the surgery. If people don't like me, that's their fault. I'm great. My parents were like, Lovely. That's I'm thrilled for you, so we'll cancel that surgery date. Great.

Sinead Burke14:49

And I think that put me in a really good position going into my teen years to believe in myself.

Presenter14:55

What about nights out with friends when you're a teenager, Sinead? They're a crucial part of growing up. How did you navigate that when you were out clubbing?

Sinead Burke15:04

love music and I love to dance, but that wasn't always possible. And I had experiences in my late teens, early twenties where

Sinead Burke15:14

People would, with a few drinks in them, come over.

Sinead Burke15:18

They would pick me up, they would throw me in the air, and they thought it was funny and it made me feel so unsafe. But I found a safe space. Where was it? And that was the gay and the queer communities in Dublin. I went to the George, which is this amazing legendary club in Dublin. And I remember being really nervous getting up to dance for the first time because I knew I was going to be looked at and I just would be so conscious of being observed.

Sinead Burke15:46

And it was amazing.

Sinead Burke15:47

'Cause nobody cared because everybody was different. And it was just so freeing. And I remember turning to my friends at the end of the night and going, Is this how you feel every night out clubbing?'Cause like I get it. Like I finally get it. I'm in. Like count me in. Every Saturday I'm here.

Sinead Burke16:05

It was really powerful.

Sinead Burke16:06

It's time to go to the music chineade. Tell us about your next disc.

Sinead Burke16:10

I got to go to the Met Gala last year in May, and I was the second ever disabled person to be in attendance and the first little person to ever go.

Sinead Burke16:20

I spent the whole morning and afternoon lying on my hotel room floor.

Sinead Burke16:25

been sick and violently unwell because I was just so nervous and it sounds so ridiculous. I remember ringing home and I called my dad and I was like, Dad, I don't think I can go and he said, Sinead, what are you talking about?

Sinead Burke16:37

It's a party in a museum. You'll have a great time. Go to the party.

Sinead Burke16:42

And it was just the sense of reality that I needed as I was walking up the steps between like Mindy Kaling and Anna Wintour. I wore this amazing full-length velvet dress and I wore a crown. And the only thing that really got me through that moment in a way was listening to Billie Eilish's You Should See Me in a Crown because I was trying to embody her confidence in a moment in which I was just disgustingly nervous. You should see me in a crown.

Presenter17:09

And now there's nothing to have

Sinead Burke17:12

Watch me make em plow on

Sinead Burke17:16

Time.

Sinead Burke17:16

I provide

Sinead Burke17:18

Why you should sing in a corner home

Sinead Burke17:21

Silence is my favorite sound

Sinead Burke17:25

What's been think about

Presenter17:34

Billy Eilish and you should see me in a crown. So Sinead Burke, you talked about finding your place on the dance floor and the club scene, Dublin's LGBTQ Plus nightclub scene. In 2012 you entered the Alternative Miss Island contest, which is organised by the LGBTQ community in Dublin. Quite a bold move. What made you decide to have a crack at that?

Presenter17:57

Uh

Sinead Burke17:57

It was a pageant style performance competition for the queer community, but it was a fundraiser for HIV and AIDS charities. I wanted to thank the queer community for not just welcoming me and accepting me, but for giving me permission to discover who I was. So.

Sinead Burke18:16

I retold the story of Snowite and the Seven Dwarfs, but from my perspective, I stood on a four-foot platform.

Sinead Burke18:23

I had a seven foot snow white skirt, and a narration began that said Once upon a time, in a land far away, Lived a little girl who actually wasn't gay.

Sinead Burke18:34

But why did she enter? I hear you all say. Was she alternative? Why, yes, she was born this way. The lights went up. Seven tall dwarfs came striding out on stage. They ripped my skirt, lifted me down off the platform, and very quickly it became obvious that this was no ordinary fairy tale. And the first half closed with my mother, dressed as the Wicked Queen, giving me an apple to Nina Simone's I Put a Spell on You. The second half opened with me in my prom in my Deb's dress in a glass coffin, and my dad, dressed as Prince Charming, coming across the stage to the traditional Snow White music. And we got a standing evasion from sixteen hundred people and was genuinely the greatest night of my life.

Sinead Burke19:22

I never expected to win. I genuinely just wanted to find a way to say thanks and to stand on that stage of so many people who had felt different or been made to feel different their whole lives. There was just such love and pride. And it was that turning point, along I think with the confidence that I gained from that, that in many ways changed everything.

Presenter19:43

I think we'd better hear some music, Jinead. What's it gonna be?

Sinead Burke19:46

There are so many songs that could mark that moment, but it's going to have to be Nina Smoan's I Put a Spell on You.

Sinead Burke19:52

Put a spell on you.

Presenter20:00

Cause you're mad.

Presenter20:03

Dun do

Presenter20:09

You better stop the things you do.

Presenter20:16

I love it.

Presenter20:20

No, I lie.

Presenter20:24

Nina Simone, and I put a spell on you. Sinead Burke, education is one of your greatest passions. How old were you when you decided that you wanted to become a primary school teacher?

Sinead Burke20:35

It was the day of my fourth birthday, which also happened to be my first day of school.

Sinead Burke20:40

I was absolute in my

Presenter20:41

So you never had any doubts and your parents were obviously hugely supportive. Did anybody else express any scepticism about this choice of career?

Sinead Burke20:49

You know, when I started in university, I remember sitting in a lecture and

Sinead Burke20:54

One of the other students kind of sitting beside me and turning to me and saying, you know, how are you going to be a teacher?

Sinead Burke20:59

The kids are going to be bigger than you. How are you going to get the respect? And it did make me worry that it wouldn't be possible. But while so many were focused on why my disability would make me a bad teacher, it was actually in many ways what made me a good, if not great, teacher. And yeah, there were challenges. I mean, I couldn't reach the artwork on the wall to hang it up. So the students that I taught just became the curators of our art classroom. And I couldn't reach the blackboard. So I taught using a laptop and a projector.

Presenter21:28

The kids must have had lots of questions for you and that natural curiosity that you mentioned earlier about your size. How did you handle that?

Presenter21:36

Yeah.

Sinead Burke21:36

You know, I'd walk into the room and straight away a hand would go up and they'd say something like, Why are you so small? Which is a really great question for a four-year-old to ask.

Sinead Burke21:44

And I would say, well, why are you so big?

Sinead Burke21:46

And they say, I I dunno, I was born like this.

Sinead Burke21:49

And I'd say, Well, yeah, so was I and they go, Oh

Sinead Burke21:53

What page are we on? And finding that connection between them and me, you know, they didn't get to choose what colour their hair was or what gender they were born or what family they were born into. And realizing that neither did I had this transformative impact in the entire classroom. And we just created the space of openness where people could ask anything. Let's go to the music, Sinead. What's next?

Presenter22:17

Next.

Sinead Burke22:18

At the end of every lesson I would link my computer to my iTunes library.

Sinead Burke22:22

And somebody who had demonstrated, I don't know, maybe it was, they tried a bit harder at a subject today, or you know what, they made a big deal of their homework.

Sinead Burke22:30

That person would get to listen to 90 seconds of a song, but everybody was trying to prove how cool they were. So we listened to a lot of Ed Sheeran and Calvin Harris for the first three weeks.

Sinead Burke22:40

And I remember one of the boys who often demonstrated some of the most challenging behaviour in the class.

Sinead Burke22:46

He came up to me one day and he said, Do you have Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel? and he said, Oh, it's played all the time at home, it's my dad's favourite song. So I went home, I bought the song, and a couple of days later it was his time, it was his moment.

Sinead Burke22:59

And he said, Will you play that song? And it began to echo out over the classroom. Most of the other kids didn't know it, and they were basically saying that it was terrible. And he said, No, this is important to me. It's important to my dad. It's his favourite song. And the next song that was asked for was Sinead O'Connor's Nothing Compares to You, and then The Dubliners, and then Thin Lizzie. It was becoming a way to bring home and school so together. You know, so many of these parents felt like school wasn't a place for them. Perhaps their own literacy levels were not where they thought it needed to be, and they didn't feel like they could interact with school in the way that it should have been open to everybody. But music and this moment changed everything in my classroom. So I didn't need to control the students.

Sinead Burke23:42

I just needed to respect them.

Speaker 223:43

Hello, darkness, my old friend.

Speaker 223:47

I've come to talk with you again.

Speaker 223:52

Because a vision softly creeping

Speaker 223:57

Left its seeds while I was sleeping

Speaker 224:01

And a vision

Speaker 224:03

That was planted in my brain

Sinead Burke24:07

Uh

Speaker 224:08

Uh

Sinead Burke24:08

Still remains.

Sinead Burke24:11

Within the sound of Time.

Presenter24:17

The Sound of Silence by Simon and Garfunkel. Sinead Berg, let's talk about fashion then. We haven't really covered it yet. You challenge it to be more inclusive. You want to hold fashion to account. I've seen pictures of you in some amazing designer outfits. It's clear that clothes and style mean a lot to you.

Sinead Burke24:35

Hugely. You know, I think for so much of my life, if somebody had asked me what my sense of style was, I would have almost said like it was kind of monochromatic with a focus on accessories.

Sinead Burke24:45

And that was because...

Sinead Burke24:47

I didn't really get to choose what I wore. I was either in the children's department, which was infantilizing, or I was in the basics in women's wear, whether it was a pair of black jeans and a white top, and that's all I could get and all that would be altered. And I found these amazing pink pair of moccasins that I have worn to death, and I don't I think they should probably be cremated at this stage, but they were the first item in my wardrobe that gave me any sense of personality or character. They were still a flat shoe.

Sinead Burke25:16

I'm a size 12 UK in the children's department, so getting high heels and getting shoes that hint to my maturity are often a challenge, but it was kind of the first time that I knew it was possible. Feeling the joy of clothes that fit you, both physically and in terms of your personality, is just something that I want the world to experience and people who have never experienced to have the privilege to do so. And when people looked at me, they decided who I was based on my body. And I wanted fashion to be a tool to redefine that, and yet I couldn't access it. But my way in was through education because I quickly understood that in terms of the fashion industry,

Sinead Burke25:55

trends and being interested in being a perhaps a traditional influencer that wears lovely clothes and gets photographed in them wasn't something that I could participate in because those clothes were not in my wardrobe and designers did not consider me when they made them.

Sinead Burke26:09

So I would dive in and spend any free time that I had in my early twenties reading everything I could about the system of the industry with this overall aspiration that it would help me gain access to it. And I started writing a blog.

Presenter26:24

I mean, the fashion industry hasn't always been accepting of those who don't fit with its quite narrow definition of beauty. There's a lot of discussion about diversity now. What do you think still needs to be communicated to designers and magazine editors? And what kind of impact do you think that you've been able to have so far?

Sinead Burke26:43

I think we've seen great advancements in the visibility of diversity. That's all I wanted when I was 16 and getting the September issue of Vogue for my birthday every year was to open up the pages of that magazine and see somebody who looked anything like me or in any way different. But I think going forward we need to push past the notion of visibility as success. I want to see design schools becoming more affordable or grants or bursaries being made specifically to encourage minority voices. I want 10 year olds to believe that they can be a fashion designer or a fashion writer or a model if they choose to be.

Presenter27:17

Last year, you were featured on the cover of Vogue, the first little person ever to be featured on any edition of Vogue's cover. And I know that parents of children who also have achondriplasia have sent you photographs of their kids holding the magazine close to themselves. How does it feel to see something like that?

Sinead Burke27:36

It just makes the most difficult moments worth it, you know? That's why you keep going, why you keep doing it in the moments where people are being unkind and treating you like less and leapfrogging you in public. Like why? Why bother? Why not do something easier? Why not go back to the classroom full time? And then you realise that maybe even just for a second you make a child's life easier or you give them permission to dream that they can do it too. Or parents who have just been told that their new baby has dwarfism and they find an image of you in Google Images at the Met Gala and they think, maybe it's gonna be okay.

Sinead Burke28:14

Sinead, let's go to the music. What are we going to hear?

Sinead Burke28:20

Very cheesely. It would be ridiculous to not have a song on this playlist that doesn't hint towards fashion in some way. So this is Madonna's Vogue.

Presenter28:34

Everywhere you turn is loving, it's

Speaker 128:37

Everywhere the chick

Speaker 128:38

You try every Playing your hand to escape. No pain of life, but you know what you know. Sailors and you know to see.

Speaker 128:52

Better than you are today.

Speaker 128:57

I know a place where you can get away. It's called a dance car, and here's what

Presenter29:07

Madonna and Vogue. Sinead Burke, you no longer teach full-time. Do you miss being in the classroom?

Sinead Burke29:14

I miss it desperately. I still visit classrooms, particularly if there's little people or disabled people enrolled and I'll go and visit.

Sinead Burke29:21

In weird ways, I think my job now is still being a teacher. I think my students are just like CEOs and creative directors of fashion companies and corporations, and sometimes they are more troublesome than twelve-year-olds and vice versa. But I think the skills that I learned in the classroom are exactly what is making me successful at the work that I'm doing right now.

Presenter29:43

What does success look like to you?

Sinead Burke29:46

It sounds really glib to say that success looks like unemployment, because either we have all of those issues solved, or a whole generation of advocates behind me are also doing that work, and it's not just advocates alone, but allies too. But I choose to do this for now. My hope is that.

Sinead Burke30:03

I won't always have to choose to do it because the work will be done. What I'll do then, I don't know. I'll have to get my dad to give me advice about getting a real job.

Presenter30:11

And as we've talked about today, you're very used to dealing with challenging physical environments. How do you think you'll cope on our desert island?

Sinead Burke30:18

I will go between joyously celebrating my own company and irritating myself with the voice in my head and desperately wanting to talk to the people I love most.

Presenter30:28

And what about fashion? I mean, obviously opportunities to express yourself that way will be rather limited.

Sinead Burke30:33

I'd have a trunkload of clothes with me or actually, you know, do that wonderful thing that some people do and just board the plane with my entire wardrobe on me, you know, like the Met Gala dress as the base and then maybe like a custom tuxedo and then over that I think, you know, a flouncy A-line skirt. So I'll be absolutely sweating on the plane, but have an array of outfit choices when I land, which I think is a good use.

Presenter30:59

Jineet, this is a very optimistic vision of your desert island, and I hate to disappoint you, but I'm staunch on this point. Honestly, you will go with one luxury item only. We'll get to that in a minute, though. For now, we've got one more disc to hear, your final selection, if you would. What's it going to be? And why have you chosen it?

Speaker 131:09

But now we've got

Sinead Burke31:15

Uh

Presenter31:15

I get to travel a lot.

Sinead Burke31:16

Uh

Sinead Burke31:17

But I miss home, and one of my best memories is being in a car with a friend in a cab and looking at the New York skyline as we drove down the quay of the river. Both of us Irish, both of us wanting to be at home and listening to this song, which is the Gloemings Saura Saura, which is the Irish word for summer. And just for three minutes, feeling like we weren't so far away.

Sinead Burke31:52

Pogum or fan on sovereign

Speaker 131:53

Prayer.

Sinead Burke31:58

Sorry, the no in Glake Out

Speaker 232:03

Hogam or Fed

Sinead Burke32:03

Fair and sovereign

Speaker 232:10

Pokemon travel

Speaker 232:15

Hogamer fan and solden

Presenter32:19

SARA SARA BY THE GLOAMING Sinead Burke, it's time to cast you away. You can take the books with you, of course, to keep you company. The Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare will help you pass the time. You can also take a book of your choice. What would you like?

Sinead Burke32:33

Yeah.

Presenter32:34

I

Sinead Burke32:34

I'm going to take Your Silence Will Not Protect You by Audrey Lord, who is one of the writers that I have learned so much from about speaking truth to power, systemic injustices, and the fact that until we are all free, none of us are really free.

Presenter32:54

What about a luxury item to make your time on the island that little bit more enjoyable?

Sinead Burke32:59

All of the women in my family are

Sinead Burke33:02

connected via a beautiful necklace that we each wear. It was gifted to us on our eighteenth birthdays and we collectively gifted my mother one. And I think being on a distant desert island, it would be a lovely piece of luxury, but also a piece of my family.

Presenter33:18

family to carry with me. It's yours, and if you could only save one disk from being swept out to sea, which one would you choose out of the eight that you've shared with us today?

Sinead Burke33:27

I think it's gonna have to be Lizzo like a girl when I am

Sinead Burke33:32

muddled in my mind with all of the thoughts and questions that might be circumnavigating around it, the best reprieve one can have in that moment is to dance joyously and embarrassingly, and I'm always doing that when Lizzo is around.

Presenter33:48

Thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Presenter33:51

Thank you.

Presenter34:02

We leave Sinead then to dance like there's nobody watching and there won't be. I hope you enjoyed listening to her story. If you'd like to hear more from other campaigners who've been cast away, you'll find them on BBC Sounds or via the Desert Island Disc's website. Among them are Doreen Lawrence, Ben Helfgot and Wangari Matai. In 2001, Sue Lawley cast away the Olympian and politician Tanny Gray Thompson. Abba in Waterloo. You obviously, Tanny Gray Thompson, intended to be serious about sport from quite early on. You'd started doing athletics at school. You went to Loughborough University, which is known for its sport, although you're reading politics. When did you decide, though, it was really not a hobby, it was something you could make a career out of?

Presenter34:46

It was probably only really when I was at university. Um, up until that point, the profile of wheelchair racing wasn't that high and I had always presumed that I was going to have to get a fairly decent job to be able to pay for my hobby.

Presenter34:58

And then as I was coming towards the end of my time at Loughborough, I'd improved tremendously.

Presenter35:03

I'd been to Seoul and I knew that's what I wanted to do. You'd won a bronze at Seoul by then. Yeah, in the 400 and and for me that was probably the point in my career where I realised I could get a lot better. Because it was the first time you'd really performed, as it were, in front of tens of thousands of people, wasn't it? Seoul was just the most amazing experience. I was nineteen and although I'd been to internationals and different games, really all the travelling I'd done had been in Europe and in the States. And actually going to a country like Korea, which is such a completely different culture, was a huge eye-opener for me. And I remember we had a little bit of time at the end of the games, sort of going shopping in sort of downtown Seoul. And you could be and it was the sort of richest shopping district in the city. And on the street corners there were sixteen year old prostitutes with needle marks. And that for me as the nineteen year old, you know, grew up in Cardiff and had never seen very much, was a huge shock. And what about nerves at the games themselves? Because you do suffer from nerves, don't you? For all your great success.

Speaker 136:04

Yeah.

Presenter36:05

And I think I get worse as I get older. I get very nervous and I've never really found a way of dealing with it. So um How nervous? What form does it take? Nervous. I I get sick, I throw up before I race, you know, that that bad. Always. Virtually always. So it still happened in Sydney. I mean, even when you were clocking up those four goals in a row, presumably particularly before the last one, the four hundred metres wasn't the last one, as we say.

Speaker 136:13

How nervous, what form does it give?

Presenter36:29

Di did anyone then suggest to you, look, forget it, give up, stop? Well, one of my coaches, um, part of me being an athlete, I actually like being at the Walmart track way ahead of time because just in case things go wrong, you know, I'm a great what-if. So I was sitting at the track about two hours before I had to start warming up, just chatting to one of the team coaches and I just said to him, I don't want to do this anymore. I feel so sick. I just I know I'm going to have to spend the next half an hour in the toilet. And he said, well, why are you doing it? And I don't know really. He said, well, if you actually had the choice and someone came along now and would take you away from this and you never had to do it again, would you go? And I said, don't be so stupid. Of course I wouldn't. So it's this kind of split personality in athlete. You just don't want to do it. And it's the worst feeling. I actually start feeling ill thinking about it now. Just the the waiting, because I I don't like waiting for things.

Presenter37:19

Tanny Gray Thompson, speaking to Sue Lawley in two thousand one.

Presenter37:24

Next time, I'll be casting away the conductor Charles Hazelwood. I do hope you'll join us then.

Speaker 137:38

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

Speaker 237:43

Hello, I'm Greg Jenner. Usually I host the You're Dead to Me podcast and work on horrible histories, but while we're all cooped up indoors, I'm presenting a new podcast for the whole family. It's called Homeschool History, and every episode is a fun, 15-minute guide to a fascinating historical subject. It's cheery, informative, and suitable for anyone who likes silly jokes and funny sound effects. And who doesn't?

Sinead Burke38:03

Air?

Speaker 238:04

We'll have episodes on The Restoration, The Space Race, Charles Dickens, Florence Nightingale, Stone Age Britain and plenty more. So that's Home School History with me, Greg Jenner, on BBC Sounds.