Dame Helena Morrissey

Speaker 20:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Presenter0:04

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:41

My castaway this week is Dame Helena Morrissey, one of the City of London's leading lights. She's globally renowned as a leader and changemaker. As a CEO, she oversaw a £30bn increase at her investment management company while building a reputation as someone who worked differently. One of her first decisions was to offer everyone working there a four-day week.

Presenter1:02

Later, she founded the Thirty Percent Club, which recently achieved its titular target, boosting the representation of women on UK boards. Alongside her career and campaigning, her aptitude for figures comes in handy at home. She recently calculated that her family had gone through at least 148 birthday cakes since the eldest of her nine children was born. She says, If anyone had said to me when I was a shy and gawky teenager that one day I would have nine children and be the chief executive of an investment company and work on initiatives to drive gender equality, I would have laughed nervously. Dame Helena Morrissey, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you, Lauren. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. So you've written that leaders today need to earn the right to lead, to inspire, not to force. You're regarded as one of the world's top leaders. What is the key to inspiring people?

Presenter1:54

Well I think starting with listening and understanding what's important to them and understand that lots of us have aspirations. We want to achieve whatever we can in life. But I think inspiring people to sounds cheesy, be the best version of themselves requires first of all understanding what that is. And I love the fact that nowadays leadership is not just about telling people what to do. It's not just about commanding and controlling, but it is really understanding what will make them the best version. I mean that's even more difficult in extreme circumstances, isn't it? And at the moment there are challenges for leaders all across the board in every line of work. The coronavirus crisis at the moment, you know, we're speaking on the 11th of March. There's the Brexit negotiations, the impact of climate change on our communities. What qualities do you think leaders need now?

Presenter2:42

Well, I think they need empathy and I think they need to understand that if everybody's anxious, then they're going to need reassurance, even if sometimes that means being honest and saying, actually, we don't have a crystal ball. We don't know exactly what will happen. But actually, we can all take one step in front of the other. We can get there. And I think sometimes just reassuring people by being there, by being available for talking to them, and not just assuming that because you put out some massive email to everybody in the company that they understand that everything is being looked after, people need the human touch. I know that the tag superwoman is often applied to you. Do you think superwomen are made or born? I realize that as I look back, and you don't necessarily choose to be the way you are, but I recognise that I've always been quite driven. I just sort of wanted to achieve things. I mean, I was this manic brownie when I was, you know, seven, eight, nine, and I wanted to break the record for the most badges. I mean, now I sort of half laugh, half cry at that thought. But at the time, I really enjoyed doing that. But I think people can do a lot more than they imagine they can do sometimes. We can stretch more. And sometimes just, again, in my own life, I haven't sort of had nine children all in one go. You know, I've had single pregnancies and everything in my career has been, I suppose, almost like living every day in a certain way. And then it gradually builds. And I try to encourage more people to do that.

Presenter3:59

It's time to dive into your music, Helena. What's the first disc you've chosen for us? I've chosen George Harrison's My Sweet Lord. This is a song that I love, and for me when it's played, I just immediately picture my entire family.

Presenter4:13

At my eldest daughter Florence's wedding to Benjamin Clementine.

Presenter4:18

My eldest son was playing the guitar and all of the other children besides Flo were singing. Fitz wasn't with us and we had him recorded on his guitar playing and you know they really put a lot of work in just to make it special. And at the end my youngest picked up the tambourine and skipped down the aisle and the happy couple followed him.

Dame Helena Morrissey4:37

My sweet Lord.

Dame Helena Morrissey4:41

Mm hello.

Dame Helena Morrissey4:45

Mm my lord.

Dame Helena Morrissey4:49

I really wanna see you

Dame Helena Morrissey4:53

Really wanna believe in them?

Dame Helena Morrissey4:57

Really wanna see Lord, but it takes so long, my Lord.

Presenter5:04

Uh

Dame Helena Morrissey5:04

Uh

Presenter5:05

Ah, sweet.

Presenter5:07

George Harrison and my sweet Lord, taking you back to a very special family moment, Eleanor Morrissey. You and I are talking today on the morning when the Bank of England cut interest rates to help mitigate the possible impact of the coronavirus on business. You were in the running to become the first female governor to succeed Mark Carney. How do you feel about not getting that position? I obviously feel slightly disappointed, but on the other hand, I certainly did not presume that I was going to get it. I entered the race partly because I encourage other women to go for things. And I felt that perhaps at this juncture, because I'm not a central banker, I've worked in the city for a long time, but I felt that maybe someone with a bit more lateral thinking, some different perspectives was needed. And so it was no good me saying that theoretically if I'm that possible person. And actually, I think it was good that I was interviewed in the sense that my application was taken seriously.

Presenter5:59

You know, people bring different qualities to it, and they obviously decide to go in a certain way. They've chosen someone who's very much steeped in regulatory background. So, you received your Damehood for services to diversity in financial services. And for you, diversity, I think it's important to say, isn't just diversity among people, but includes diversity of opinion. Why is that important?

Speaker 16:18

Oh.

Presenter6:19

Well, obviously I care a lot about equal opportunities, but I also want businesses to be well run. I want them to serve their customers and clients well, and I'd love to see the British economy do brilliantly. And all of that's only going to happen if we have the most creative, most inspired ideas and people around the table. And I think the financial crisis of a decade ago showed us that actually if you just have one type of person around the table, often not just because they were all men.

Presenter6:44

or all white or all a certain age, but often very similarly educated, hung out with each other in the same social circles, then it's really difficult to get that creative spark and to have the challenge. And I really see the point of diversity as being yes, about equal opportunity, but also just as importantly about having better thinking, better companies and a better economy for everybody's benefit.

Presenter7:06

It's time to go to the music's your second disc today, Helena. Why have you chosen it?

Presenter7:10

This is Chopin's heroic polonaise in A-flat major. As a child, I learnt the piano and

Presenter7:17

I did this very seriously for a while, and at one stage my parents were thinking of sending me to music school. I'm rather glad they didn't, because I'm very happy with my life, but I worked very hard at the piano, and this was effectively the hardest piece that I ever learned. I can't play it nowadays. It's very frustrating if you are once half proficient to not play something quite so well. But every time I hear it, I think of that time in my life. My dad spent so long listening to me practice. I mean, he was a saint with hindsight, and I I hope I didn't take it for granted, but it reminds me of those happy times when

Presenter7:47

Unfappy for me when I was playing and he would listen.

Presenter8:48

Part of Chopin's Heroic Polonaise in A flat played by Arthur Rubinstein and, in earlier years, by you, Dame Helena Morrissey. Yes, not quite the same way as he plays it. Anyways,

Speaker 18:58

Anyways.

Presenter9:00

Well, for a while I was, and as soon as I practice several hours a day, but you need to keep that up, and I'm afraid I don't these days. So tell me a little bit more about yourself at a young age. You described yourself earlier as a manic brownie. She's a very strong. All sorts of strange skills like metalworking. Well, not that strange, but for me, in my current life, it is. And.

Speaker 19:15

Very strong visual.

Presenter9:23

Semaphore, and you know, I remember my dad standing at the end. We had a long thin garden, and so the semaphore flags were used, and I had to translate it and then do it back to him, so he had to learn it too. But up until this point, I haven't had any need for it. But I enjoyed learning the technique at the time. You were very driven, very competitive about collecting these badges and these skills. What did it feel like? What were you after? Was it the skill that you wanted to learn, or was it the accolade that you were chasing?

Presenter9:48

Yeah, I didn't know that there would be an accolade actually. I think the local newspaper pictured me with all my badges on my arm, but I didn't anticipate that. But I think somebody had got 31 badges, and so I just thought the logical thing was to try to get 32. And I don't know why, really. It's a mystery to me to this day. Well, as you say, we've had less well-prepared castaways off to this desert island, so we will come and have a lot of time. This would be my opportunity for finally using all of those strange skills that I've picked up.

Dame Helena Morrissey10:05

Yeah.

Dame Helena Morrissey10:06

It just is.

Speaker 110:10

Uh

Dame Helena Morrissey10:10

It's complete my album.

Presenter10:15

But interesting to see, you know, your drive kicking in so early. Your mother and father, Jackie and Tony, were teachers and very supportive by the sounds of it. Yes, and I mentioned my dad listening to me practicing the piano. My mother, you know, avid reader, always loved poetry and novels and always would discuss the topics of the day with me and stalwart members of our village church. They gave me a lot of freedom. We moved when I was about ten to a more countryside village and my sister and I came down with mumps the day we moved. So we were quarantined basically for the summer holidays and we just went off on our bicycles. I was ten, she was six, obviously way before the days of mobile phones. We took a picnic and my mum would say come back at six for supper.

Presenter10:58

Apparently you also showed uh early leadership in your play as a child because you ran a school.

Presenter11:04

Yes, uh sorry, Liz, my sister my little sister, she was my only pupil and, you know, I was very solemn about the whole thing. And actually, I turned those bicycle rides into part of the school. You know, we go on a nature trail hunt and so forth. But with hindsight, I was a bit strict.

Presenter11:19

It's time to hear your third disc today. What's it going to be? So it's The Carpenters we've only just begun. And this resonates with me on so many levels. My parents always played lots of music. And one day my mum bought The Carpenters. It was

Presenter11:33

The singles, I think 1969 to 73, and the opening track on that is We've Only Just Begun. And when I first heard it, I just could not believe how beautiful Karen Carpenter's voice was. And very sadly, of course, she died at the age of 32 of anorexia or complications around that. And I actually suffered from that in my teenage years. I think she died about a year, two years after I had recovered. So that, unfortunately, is a poignant connection. It's so tragic that she lost her life. And yeah, it just makes me feel both happy and sad to listen to this.

Dame Helena Morrissey12:08

We've only just begun too late.

Dame Helena Morrissey12:17

White lace and promises

Dame Helena Morrissey12:22

A kiss for luck in her own away We only be good before the rising sun

Presenter12:39

The Carpenters, and we've only just begun. Helena Morrissey, a poignant track for you. As you said, you suffered from anorexia in your teens. You suffered for about a year and then recovered quite quickly. It was very scary for my parents, and I wasn't much shorter than I am now, so I was about five foot five or six, and I only weighed five stone. And so now I look back and the pictures are utterly hideous.

Presenter13:03

But of course in my mind I had this very warped

Presenter13:06

I thought I was fat, and you know, I can still remember getting on the scales and thinking, Oh, I'm gonna get down to fourth stone, you know, whatever it was. And it's obviously completely irrational and very worrying for parents. And as I mentioned, my parents gave me a very stable background. I think this was probably me being a bit worried about growing up, being scared of growing up, I think. You've felt it was rooted in that anxiety. Yeah, I I think anorexia is now known to be a lot to do with wanting to have control over an aspect of your life and

Speaker 113:26

It was rooted in that exactly.

Presenter13:34

You know, we know we don't have control over lots of our life and controlling what you consume and completely controlling that. It you know, you can do that, but obviously it's not a healthy thing and

Presenter13:46

But I actually do recall that sense of recognizing suddenly the self-destruction part of it and that it was something I couldn't do, I couldn't run or something and I just I suddenly the scales fell from my eyes and it sort of switched off and I wanted to get better and I wanted to um you know be part of the world and to grow up and you know do what I could but it was i it it did last for a a little while and um you know did get quite serious.

Presenter14:10

By sixth form, as a teenager, you were the only girl doing maths and further maths at your comprehensive secondary school. How did your fellow students react to you?

Presenter14:18

Well, I put it that I was teased, but I probably would be described as being bullied these days. My problem was I wasn't that great at maths, which people might say, why did I study double maths? But I, you know, as I've already intimated, I like a challenge. Anyway, what transpired after that was I could have either given up or I could have worked out a way through it and

Presenter14:38

I tried the latter and there were twelve subjects on the syllabus and six were supposedly easy and then six were regarded as very difficult. So I realized that if I learnt the hard six I could predict the questions. So very slowly, over six terms, I mastered six topics and I noticed that the dynamic changed a bit. The boys would compete with each other a lot, but because I then caught them up like very much the tortoise in the tortoise and the hair race, they suddenly looked at me differently and they would also ask me when they got stuck or I would ask them and everybody started sharing.

Presenter15:14

So I like to think, you know, that was the first example of a bit of diversity in the classroom, and I feel that it was important.

Presenter15:21

Lesson for me that actually things aren't usually impossible, but you do have to be calm about it and work out a strategy. Let's go to the music. It's your fourth disc. Why have you chosen it?

Presenter15:32

So this one is a dance track, Pet Shop Boys Being Boring. And in my younger years, I certainly loved dancing. It reminds me of my time at Cambridge University. I was lucky enough to go there and I met Richard, my husband, and we both liked Pet Shop Boys. This track was actually.

Presenter15:50

released after we'd left. But to me, the words in particular summarize so much about young people. And also there's a line in it where it talks about listening to people who open closed doors. And I try to do that.

Dame Helena Morrissey16:05

When you're young, you find inspiration.

Dame Helena Morrissey16:09

Anyone who's ever gone

Dame Helena Morrissey16:13

And opened up a closing door

Dame Helena Morrissey16:17

She said we were never feeling bored.

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Cause we will never be boring

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We had too much time to find for ourselves.

Dame Helena Morrissey16:31

And we will never be hidden

Presenter16:35

Pet Jop Boys and Being Boring, taking you back to your days at Cambridge, Dame Helena Morrissey. So at 18, there you were reading philosophy rather than mathematics, and you describe university life as liberating. In what way?

Presenter16:48

Well, I'd had quite a sheltered upbringing, and suddenly there were these people who were much more worldly than me. I was exposed to obviously Cambridge has amazing debates, and it just was eye-opening to me. On graduating, you joined Schroeder's Asset Management Company in 1987. What was the appeal of a career in wealth management? Well, I honestly didn't have a clue what I wanted to do, and friends of mine were applying to the city, and they encouraged me. I mean, mostly men. They were encouraging me, and they said, Look, you like writing, you like talking, you like numbers, you would enjoy it. So, it was a bit of a leap into the unknown. And I really loved the people that I met at Schroeder's. In fact, in my first interview, it was a man and a woman. At the time, I thought that was completely normal. And now I realized that the woman was very unusual to be working in a senior role in the city. And I came across her the other day, actually, and I said, Oh, you're the reason why I joined the city. You know, she was so inspiring to me. And then they sent me off to New York for two years. So, you were an apprentice in their New York office. The company culture is something that's very important to you today. Tell me about what life was like there, then. So, this was the time of Wall Street I movie. Greed is good. Everybody, including myself, wore pinstripe trouser suits. I mean, I'm saying that embarrassed now that I went out and bought a trouser suit that had chalky stripes on it. And the women in the office, I mean, there were quite a few, and they really caught the shots. They were highly regarded. When I came back to London, I was a bit taken aback because I was the only woman in a team of 16.

Presenter18:17

And the corporate culture presumably very different too. I mean, it seems funny now, but we had a morning meeting in London that started at eleven forty five AM. People would sort of roll in and it was all very

Presenter18:29

clubby and, you know, hierarchical. Um, New York, everyone worked every hour that they had. So yes, culturally it was quite different and there were very, very few women. So it it it was quite difficult, I'll be honest.

Presenter18:42

So you came back to London, you and Richard married and you had your first child fits in 1991 and then once you were back at work you didn't receive the promotion that you'd expected to. What happened? I was eligible for this first promotion and I didn't get it and my two male colleagues who joined at the same time as me, they did. And I asked my boss, what did I need to do differently? And he said, oh there's nothing wrong with your performance, but you know there is a bit of doubt of your commitment with a baby. Now I had just literally walked back in the door. I hadn't been away for all that long, five months. So I wasn't expecting that at all. I was quite bewildered because maybe naively I thought that my gender would have absolutely nothing to do with how far I could progress.

Presenter19:22

That really was the first taste of the inequality as I was in the city at the time, and probably gave me a bit of fire in my belly about um.

Presenter19:30

You know, trying to do something about that. Time for some more music. Let's have your fifth disc, if you wouldn't mind. So, my fifth disc is Moon River, and I've chosen the Audrey Hepburn version. She sung this in the movie Breakfast at Tiffany. And she's always been an icon for me and hugely inspirational, not just because she's so elegant, but did a huge amount of humanitarian work in her later years and just seemed to be a very giving person. And this makes me think of her movies and what a wonderful person she seems to have been.

Dame Helena Morrissey20:07

Wider than a mile.

Dame Helena Morrissey20:10

I'm crooked.

Dame Helena Morrissey20:12

Then you win style someday

Dame Helena Morrissey20:20

Oh drink.

Dame Helena Morrissey20:25

Right.

Dame Helena Morrissey20:27

Breaker

Dame Helena Morrissey20:29

Wherever you're going.

Dame Helena Morrissey20:34

I'm going.

Dame Helena Morrissey20:36

Your way

Presenter20:37

Audrey Hepburn performing Moon River. Dame Helena Morrissey, you joined Newton Investment Management as a fixed income fund manager in 1994. In 2001, you were offered the role of Chief Investment Officer, but you were quickly made aware that your colleagues didn't support you. They didn't believe you had the requisite experience in the field, but they did see you as a leader. They wanted you to become CEO instead. How did you react at the time to that news?

Presenter21:05

Well, I said yes, but then I called my husband and said, Well, I'm not going to be the CIO, as it's dubbed, but the CEO instead. And he said to me,

Presenter21:15

Well, what does that job entail? And I honestly answered, Well, I'm not quite sure. But I did know that I really wanted to lead my colleagues who had just been taken over by an American firm, so which is why there had been some vacancies. And

Presenter21:28

I said yes when a lot of people would have said no. When it wasn't that easy, I I didn't have any training, I'd never run a business and

Presenter21:35

I also had five children. The youngest I just turned one, two and three. So this was a full on time in my life, and there's no two ways about that.

Presenter21:46

And probably a sensible person would have said no, but I don't regret it. How quickly did you become aware of the scale of the challenge you were facing?

Presenter21:53

Well, almost immediately actually. It was I mean, it was a real baptism of fire, and I made loads of mistakes. I'll be the first to admit that, including on, I think, day two, uh, taking a call from a tabloid newspaper.

Presenter22:05

who had heard about my appointment and asked me lots of questions and I freely gave lots of information. And then, of course, the next day my colleagues were hardly speaking to me and I hadn't even seen the newspaper and it was

Presenter22:16

It did rather diminish me a bit.

Presenter22:19

You can learn from mistakes and

Presenter22:22

If we are afraid of making those mistakes, we'll never try anything. And one of your favorite sayings is leap before you look. Why is that? Yeah, because again, I think we're told so often the other way round, you know, look and then make your mind up. Let's do a bit more leaping and less looking and then be ourselves along the way, be authentic.

Presenter22:40

I went from being, you know, a team member and doing okay in my career to being invited to become the chief executive.

Presenter22:47

You know, because I had learnt my own style of delivery, my own style of dress, you know, I had grown into that style. I had stopped sort of looking over at what everybody else was doing and I'd branched out a bit. In her book, Lean In, Cheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook, says that women hold themselves back by their fear of not being liked and that our own discomfort with women as leaders can be a hindrance as well. To what extent has that been your experience in your career?

Presenter23:17

So, I think we often do hold ourselves back for all sorts of reasons, and I'd be quite open about the fact that I know I like to be liked. I don't like.

Presenter23:26

aggressive

Presenter23:27

confrontation at all. And I think that's been something that certainly I've had to work on and recognize that sometimes you have to make unpopular decisions as a leader.

Presenter23:36

I think that we also need to try to change the nature of what it means to be powerful and to be an effective leader. And actually, I think this is where

Presenter23:47

I mean, I applaud what Sheryl Samberg has done on so many levels in terms of using her power to create a conversation about all of this. But I do feel that leaning into the status quo is not the answer, that actually we should be contributing as women

Presenter24:01

Feminine characteristics, particularly empathy, particularly listening, particularly collaboration and building consensus and not having that sort of rather stereotypical macho, I'm telling you what to do approach to leadership. And how would you like to see workplace cultures change, you know, to adapt to include women more easily? Well, I think the listening part is very important. For example, if you're chairing a meeting.

Presenter24:24

It's not a question of

Presenter24:26

Just repeating things that we knew going into the meeting, listening to the guy or woman who's shouting loudest, but actually skillfully drawing out the opinions of perhaps the introverted person of making sure that you start the meeting by saying, Look, this is what we already know. Let's not just repeat that. I mean, so many meetings are complete waste of time. They're just showcases for people who are already powerful in a company. Whereas actually, I'm interested in getting the right strategy, the right answers, and then people feeling very involved and wanting to execute them, make them happen. It's time to take a break for some music. Your sixth disc today. What are we going to hear?

Presenter24:58

So now we're coming right up to the present, and I've chosen the Clementines first single, Calm Down. Now the Clementines are my eldest daughter, Florence, and her husband, Benjamin.

Presenter25:10

And both of them have recorded in the past as solo artists. This was released before, just as the coronavirus was starting to cause more widespread anxiety. So the title Calmed Down seems to be particularly apt, but I just obviously has resonance for me because this is my own daughter and son-in-law, but also

Presenter25:32

I I I love the the s the the intent of the song.

Presenter25:36

They're talking about calming down within a couple, but I think it can apply in so much of our lives.

Dame Helena Morrissey25:48

Calm down.

Dame Helena Morrissey25:51

Mr. Man.

Dame Helena Morrissey25:57

No more pointing finger.

Dame Helena Morrissey26:03

Calm down.

Dame Helena Morrissey26:07

Oh, calm down.

Presenter26:12

The Clementines and Calm Down Your Daughter and Son in Law's Band, Helena Morrissey. By the time you were CEO, as you mentioned, you'd had uh five of your children, including Flo, who we just heard from. You were working full time.

Presenter26:25

You said that you and Richard had a Walton-esque fantasy about having a large family. What was the fantasy? And tell me a little bit about the reality. So both of us are from quite nuclear families. I have one sister. Richard has two sisters. Both of us had friends who had large, happy, chaotic families around us. So we had this shared romantic vision, which is just as well, really. But we had intended

Speaker 126:30

No.

Speaker 126:33

But the reality is

Presenter26:48

to stop at five.

Presenter26:50

And clearly, we did not. It's probably best to leave it at that, isn't it? Well, except that four further children afterwards. It's quite overshot by some considerable amount. So I feel we should explore a little bit. So, six was a happy accident, and then we had four girls and two boys.

Speaker 126:56

Yeah.

Speaker 126:58

I mean useful

Speaker 127:03

Okay, let's go if you want to.

Presenter27:10

My husband one day said, Oh, it'd be great to have another son, so we gambled on that and we did have a boy. So I think that satisfactorily explains seven, or at least logically explains seven. Then I became pregnant um accidentally. Obviously, a slightly chaotic theme is running through this.

Presenter27:26

And I had a miscarriage and I was forty, I think, and I decided I had to have another baby. And I understand that's quite common, and it doesn't mean it's excuse.

Presenter27:34

And so we had our eighth child. And then nine, this is ultra embarrassing now, but she she was just meant to be. She snuck her way through all the defences and we had some interesting conversations about when I when I announced that I was expecting another one to Richard because he was l in fact that day he said, Well,

Presenter27:51

No more babies. And I knew I was pregnant and I was thinking, oh, that's awkward. I'm going to have to.

Presenter27:56

Anyway, I wouldn't have it any other way. She's a wonderful, large slightly larger than live character and, um, as I say, smashed her way through all the defences.

Speaker 128:02

But

Presenter28:04

And obviously, you know, you've had this kind of good night, John Boy, good night, Mama, good night, Papa Fantasy. Tell me about the reality. Tell me about that happy chaos.

Speaker 228:09

Yeah.

Speaker 228:11

Tell me about that.

Presenter28:13

So well it has been

Presenter28:15

chaotic and mostly it's been happy and we love it when we all gather together and it's a bit more like a banquet than just a meal. But um you know, by the time we count the two grandchildren in now and, you know, three eldest have got partners, so that means I've actually gonna have to quickly count that up. So we're sixteen. Sixteen of us. Um so yeah, that is quite a full table, but we wouldn't have it any other way. And and I've always prioritise as well getting home for family meal times because

Presenter28:43

That's been a very important part of our family life. And people have sometimes said to me, Well, how can you do that when you've obviously got long hours? But it's important to know what's important in your own life, I think.

Speaker 228:48

Uh

Presenter28:53

Time for some more music. What's next?

Presenter28:56

So we're now on to another song from Benjamin Clementine called Condolence. And in it he talks about giving condolence to fear and to insecurity. And when I first heard this, I thought, wow, this is almost how I I feel now that there is a moment when

Presenter29:14

You're on top of all of that, and I'm not saying I never suffer from it, but my main focus in life is on.

Presenter29:22

positive things and this song just seems to me to capture in quite a it's quite an it sounds almost an angry way, but it's a really defiant way and I want to give my condolence to fear and insecurity.

Dame Helena Morrissey29:35

Why the rope seems so long? Cause I

Dame Helena Morrissey29:41

I had done it all before.

Dame Helena Morrissey29:45

And I

Dame Helena Morrissey29:51

I won't

Dame Helena Morrissey29:54

I'm sending my contour

Dame Helena Morrissey29:57

That's

Dame Helena Morrissey29:58

I'm sending my condo

Presenter30:05

Part of condolence performed by your son-in-law Dame Helena Morrissey, the Mercury Prize winning Benjamin Clementine.

Presenter30:12

So, of course you are hugely successful professionally. I wonder how your personal notions of what success means have changed over the years?

Presenter30:21

Oh, I think it's very much about doing more than a job. I am proud it's yeah, I'm going to use that word. I am proud of what the thirty percent club's achieved because

Presenter30:32

I think it has made a difference and it has changed the not just the conversation, but it's changed actions.

Presenter30:38

But success, obviously, if you have a family, is very much about seeing them happy and healthy and thriving as well. But Richard, I mean, he has done such a huge amount in terms of bringing up nine

Presenter30:49

happy people and devoting himself to that. And if something like that is not important, I mean, obviously he is important and everyone will say it's important. So why do we not consider that when we're assessing people's value? I I do feel we've got to be more

Presenter31:05

Honest about the fact that success has many, many facets, and real success is much more than a big job title.

Presenter31:14

And how long do you expect to be able to maintain that drive that was first evident when you were a brownie back in the day? Well, one of the wonderful things about life today is people don't seem to properly retire. I'm already, I suppose, doing what's called a portfolio career and I'm staying very much involved in work on diversity as well. And I can't really see I mean, it'd be wonderful, it didn't need doing any more, wouldn't it? But I can't really see myself ever completely retiring, at least as long as I have my health.

Presenter31:41

Well, you'll be retiring to the island shortly. But before you do that, we have one more track to hear. It's your last disc today. What's it going to be, Dame Helena Morrissey?

Speaker 131:43

Before you do that

Presenter31:51

So this is Kanye West's God Is, and I really admire what Kanye West has done. Talking about his religious conversion, I think he's he's obviously a very controversial figure in some terms of some of his views.

Presenter32:05

But this is what diverse thinking is. I'm a religious person and you know this song is played in our house most nights. We have a little tiny little chapel in our house and our children sung this at our Carol service at Christmas too.

Dame Helena Morrissey32:27

Uh

Dame Helena Morrissey32:29

He's my wall.

Dame Helena Morrissey32:32

And who

Dame Helena Morrissey32:39

Everything that I pray, praise the Lord Worship Christ with the best of your portions. I know I won't forget all He's done. He's the strength in this face that I

Presenter32:55

Yeah.

Presenter32:56

Canye West and God is sampling James Cleveland and the Southern California Community Choir. So it's time to cast you away on your desert island, Dame Helena Morrissey. What do you think the first thing that you'll do when you get there is?

Presenter33:10

I think some reflection. I mean, obviously, I'm going to have a lot of time to reflect, aren't I? Tons of time.

Speaker 133:14

Tom Te.

Presenter33:16

That would be quite a luxury at first. I'm sure I would get bored of my own company at certain point, but reflection.

Presenter33:22

Well, we'll give you the books for company, luckily. The Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and a book of your choice. What would you like? I think I'll need some laughter and humour while I'm on the island by myself. So I'm actually, assuming I can't take the whole sort of compendium, chosen P. G. Woodhouse's much obliged Jeeves. It would make me laugh, which would be important. I can also give you a luxury item to make island life more enjoyable. What would you like? I'm going for a grand piano because I would definitely not have any excuses for not learning the piano again, would I? And finally, if you had to save just one of your eight discs, which would it be?

Presenter33:58

It's going to be my first one, George Harrison's My Sweet Lord, because of the image it conjures up in my mind of my entire family singing on a very, very happy day. Dame Helena Morrissey, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you.

Presenter34:23

I'm sure Helena will very quickly fine-tune her skills as a pianist on the island, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. There are many castaways from the worlds of business and finance in the Desert Island Discs back catalogue, including Sir Mervyn King, former governor of the Bank of England, Nicola Horlick, Dame Minouche Shafiq and Mariana Matsukato. You can find all of those editions on BBC Sounds and of course a whole host of programmes from musicians to comedians, scientists to novelists to keep you going in these most difficult times. Next week, I'm delighted to say my guest will be the actor and star of the US series Succession, Brian Cox. Do join us then.

Speaker 235:13

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts.

Dame Helena Morrissey35:17

Uh

Speaker 135:17

From the one village behind the mountain. Imagine you're living a very different life on the other side of the world.

Dame Helena Morrissey35:23

You feel I cannot do anything.

Speaker 135:25

You live silently in the shadows. Just stay home, bring children, make food. And then someone takes your child, disappears into the night with your little girl, and you can't stay silent any longer.

Speaker 135:41

And you'll do whatever it takes. Travel thousands of miles across the globe to find your missing daughter.

Dame Helena Morrissey35:47

This is my child. I look after this child like tiger. Just go everywhere.

Speaker 135:54

Join me, Sue Mitchell, for this gripping new BBC Radio 4 podcast series. Subscribe to Girl Taken on BBC Sounds.