Dame Sue Campbell

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne, and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. This is an extended version of the original Radio 4 broadcast, and, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:46

My castaway this week is Dame Sue Campbell. As Director of Women's Football at the FA, she's presided over a blossoming of the sport, with the Lionesses making it to the semi-final of last year's World Cup. But it was as a PA teacher on Manchester's Moss side that she first witnessed the power of sport to transform lives when she persuaded a hard-to-reach class to start their own dance troupe. She's been inspiring and creating change ever since. A sporty child herself, she loved football and played netball for England. Always a trailblazer, she became the first female sports lecturer at Loughborough University, co-founded the Youth Sports Trust, and became the chair of UK Sport. Her reward would be to oversee the largest British medal hall in living memory at the London 2012 Olympics. She was awarded her damehood in this year's New Year's honours. She says, I believe in the power of sport. I've felt it. It's in my heart and my head. Kids sitting on that wayward edge are pulled back by this thing called sport. Perhaps only music and sport can speak to kids in that way. Plenty of both to discuss today. Dame Sue Campbell, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Dame Sue Campbell1:55

Thank you very much. My pleasure to be here.

Presenter1:56

So last summer, six million of us watched the Lioness' first game on T V. Lots of pubs up and down the country packed with people watching England's Women's World Cup semi final match against the US. And at Wembley in November, over eighty five thousand people watched their friendly against Germany. How did all of that feel?

Dame Sue Campbell2:15

I think it's remarkable. And if you'd said that to me even a year ago, I would have said prob not a probability. I mean, in fact, eleven point seven million, watch that semi final. Getting eyes on the game is really important.

Dame Sue Campbell2:28

And for me, girls' and women's sport has always lagged behind, both in terms of the number of participants and the opportunities. And if you'd been there at Wembley and you'd walked down Wembley Way, the Olympic Way, and you'd sat in that crowd, what would have filled you with joy was the number of young girls with their brothers, with their fathers, with their uncles, with their mums, with their aunts, sitting as a family unit, loving watching sport.

Presenter2:54

As we'll hear, you're used to growing organisations. What's been your biggest challenge growing women's football?

Dame Sue Campbell3:00

When I first came in, I was given three very clear targets: double participation, double the fan base, which we've more than achieved, win the World Cup in 2023. I'd like to have won it in 2019, but we didn't quite get there. But, you know, I stand on the shoulders of a lot of people who pioneered women's football. As you know, it was banned for quite a long time by the FA.

Presenter3:19

By the F A in 1921.

Dame Sue Campbell3:21

Yes, it was banned for about 50 years. And was it banned? Well, it's a great question. I wasn't there in 1920. I might look like I was there in 1921, but I wasn't. What happened was when the men went away to war, the women who were working in the munitions factory started playing football. And indeed, many of them played in front of very large audiences. And then when the men came back from the war, the women were told that football was no longer for them.

Presenter3:24

And what do you know about?

Presenter3:30

But I wasn't.

Dame Sue Campbell3:45

And then a whole group of women pioneered the resurrection of football in the 70s and, you know, battled away. And although we've come a long way from those times, I do think one of the biggest challenges has been getting people to take women's football seriously, seeing it as a right for young girls to be able to play this game. It's our national game. Changing mindsets is the biggest challenge. And actually, the women's game is different. It's not better, it's not worse, it's different than the men's. But encouraging and getting the mainstream football fan to think the women's game is credible and of the highest standard has been the biggest challenge. My colleagues would say I'm never satisfied with the pace of change that we're on, but we've moved a long way in a very short space of time. We've still got a long way to go there.

Speaker 14:03

For your

Presenter4:31

The FA is a very male-dominated institution, how are they coping with you, I wonder?

Dame Sue Campbell4:36

Um they call me the rogue monkey. I'm not quite sure what that means. The rogue monkey. I'm the one that causes all the disruption. So I am a disruptor and and therefore I'm sometimes difficult to manage. I'm very conscious of that. But you know, if you want to change things, sometimes you have to disrupt things.

Presenter4:54

Interestingly, that strand of your personality and your approach sits alongside another one, not just the rogue monkey, but also apparently the FA's chief hugger.

Presenter5:04

Huh? Uh

Dame Sue Campbell5:04

Something else that you're known as?

Presenter5:04

Something else that you'll know?

Dame Sue Campbell5:06

Well, yeah, that's very much with the players. I've developed a great relationship with the lionesses. Many of them well, I think the girls today are still battling some of those things, but you know, they fought their way to the top and I respect them and admire them enormously. And yeah, I do end up hugging everybody. I'm not sure how good a thing that is, but I do end up as the main hugger.

Speaker 15:21

Uh

Presenter5:21

And yet

Presenter5:27

See, Campbell, it's time to go to the music. Tell us about the first one.

Dame Sue Campbell5:30

Well the first one is really dedicated to those women we were talking about a few minutes ago and to my lionesses. These are people who were not constrained by what other people told them they could do or what was possible. So this music is very much dedicated to those people who resurrected the game in the 70s and to the present day lionesses and hopefully to the future lionesses.

Speaker 45:55

Tree.

Speaker 45:58

Dana Fly

Speaker 46:01

Dan and be the air that chosen want to touch the sky.

Speaker 46:08

Jerry.

Speaker 46:12

Dare to rise.

Speaker 46:17

In the strength of set my spirit free Taylor dream

Presenter6:26

John Farnham and Olivia Newton John Dare to Dream, which they performed at the Sydney Olympics in two thousand. So Sue Campbell, you said that sport was your third parent. Tell me a little bit more about the other two. Your dad was an important influence and he really impressed the importance of sport on you.

Dame Sue Campbell6:35

Come on,

Dame Sue Campbell6:43

Yeah, my father was a great coach. Not that he'd got any qualifications, but he was my number one supporter and coach. And we'd play cricket most nights when he got home, even in the pitch black. Mrs. North, who lived next door, wasn't so keen because we had to keep going around for the balls. Both my mum and dad were people who'd made their own way in life, working class, I suppose you'd call them. Both left school very early, both really put a high emphasis on our education, my sister's and mine. Sport was just something we did. I mean, my father had this notion, he used to take us to Skegness once a month, because I thought the air was better there and we'd all grow up much healthier. I mean, when we got to Skeg, you know, we'd end up playing mini golf and then we'd have fish and chips, then we'd go and play football on the beach. And my life was just sport. If I wanted to go ice skating, they took me ice skating. If I wanted to try something, they took me and let me have a go at it. And you had that natural competitive streak that was just a mile wide. It was. I don't quite know where it came from. It needed a little tempering at times because there were many occasions where I wanted to win and I didn't. And what happened then? Well, the most memorable one was I went to the All-England Schools Athletics Championships a number of times. I was throwing the discus, believe it. I know you wouldn't believe that looking at me now, but I was discus throwing at the time. And I lost. And then.

Presenter7:47

What happened then?

Dame Sue Campbell8:03

I lost again, I lost again, I think the fourth time, always making mistakes, always too tense. And I remember walking home, and my mum and dad were looking out the kitchen window. And as I walked past the dustbin, I lifted it up and I threw my kit in it and slammed the dustbin lid down. And I walked into the kitchen, and dad said to mum, I think you better go, leave this with me. And we sat there and talked about it. And by the end, of course, I'd gone and got my stuff out of the dustbin. And he convinced me that, you know, the expression I've heard since is you can either be history or you can make history. And he convinced me that my job was to make history and to go away and practice even more. And the next year I won the All England Schools Athletics Championship. So there you go. So sport teaches you that you don't always win.

Presenter8:28

Alright.

Speaker 18:28

I spin up

Dame Sue Campbell8:49

That things don't always work the way you want them to, but it also teaches that resilience to cope when things aren't good and keep working at it.

Presenter8:56

And as you say, they were hard workers and doers. Your mum, Pat, ran her own business as a hairdresser. Was that unusual where you were growing up? Uh

Dame Sue Campbell9:04

I think she probably was unusual. She was a bit entrepreneurial. She lived in Long Eaton, started working Nottingham and it cost her three shillings a week on the bus and she only earned two and sixpence. And her father topped her up, the other tanner, as it was known in those days. And then the man she was working for, Mr Smith, suggested to her she needed to start on her own. And she opened a I've got a picture actually of her first shop, which is upstairs in the marketplace at Long Eaton. And she started there on her own. And within a few years, she'd opened three shops, was very well known, great with people, worked incredibly hard and did really well. You know, the thing about parents is you don't realise how wonderful they are till either they're not there or you grow up and you're much wiser and older. And I think that's one of the great sadnesses. I don't think I ever really told them how much I loved them and what they meant to me. I think they knew I loved them because I'm very, you know, as you've found out, I'm a hugger. So I'm very tactile. But I think the sadness is you want to say so much to them afterwards.

Dame Sue Campbell10:06

Um they've gone, so you you can't do that.

Presenter10:10

Time to eat your second disc soon.

Dame Sue Campbell10:12

This this is my my message that I would love to have given my mum and dad had they still been around, which is that they created in me the music of my heart, not just the sporting music, but

Dame Sue Campbell10:26

Relationships with people, the love of being out of doors. There are so many things which have.

Dame Sue Campbell10:32

Kept me sane and happy throughout my life, and I owe it all to the two of them.

Speaker 410:38

You told me to ride, you told me to fly.

Speaker 410:42

Me to free the media side

Speaker 410:46

Help me hear the music on my own

Speaker 410:50

Help me hear the music on the air

Speaker 410:54

You open my eyes to

Speaker 410:57

A door to something I've never known before

Speaker 411:04

Your love is the music of my life.

Speaker 411:10

Music

Presenter11:13

Gloria Estefan and NSYNC, Music of my Heart. So Sue Campbell, I think you said you were usually in trouble when you always? Okay, great. Tell me more about that.

Dame Sue Campbell11:22

I

Dame Sue Campbell11:26

Oh, well, no, not always. But I was a youngster with very high energy, not always good at sitting still in classrooms, often looking out the window, desperate to get outside. I mean, I just, you know, I was feral really. I should have just been left to run about outside. You know, I would get into trouble on all sorts of things, and certainly I didn't do well at school initially. It was only when my P teacher, Sheila Bassett, sat me down one day and said, you know, what do you want to do with your life? And I said, oh, I have no idea. And she said, well, I think you should be a P teacher. And no such thing had crossed my mind. And I said, what have I got to do to do that? And she said, well, for a start, you've got to start working at school. So Sheila Bassett, she was the one that moved me across to be a P teacher. So you struggled at school. It wasn't an environment that could really accommodate a kid. Thank you.

Presenter12:11

Yeah.

Dame Sue Campbell12:11

No, and I, you know, I worry even nowadays that we put huge pressure on our children to achieve exam results. And while I get I understand that, and of course we want literate numerate youngsters, I think we also need physically literate youngsters. You know, we need kids that are in touch with their bodies and their and feel good about who they are in the world. And I think that's really important. And what was fantastic for me was, you know, I played football in the streets the whole time with Brian Carrier and lots of other people, but remember Brian particularly. And we roller skate, we used to roller skate down Farm Road, around Hall Drive, and we used to race each other all the way around. What I didn't realize was all of those are very different skills. You know, balance, coordination, skillfulness, agility. Education for me is not just about exams, it's about preparing you for life. And whilst, you know, I wasn't anything like a shining star academically at Long Eaton, I ended up as the head girl. Right, because the headmaster, Mr Grey, saw something in me, which was probably the rogue again. And that made me behave in a very different way. Playing football in the street, I mean, was that usual for girls where you were growing up and how did the birds be? No, I was the only girl playing footy. I played at primary school and then I got to secondary school and I was told girls didn't play football.

Speaker 113:24

Yeah.

Dame Sue Campbell13:29

And my heart sank because I was convinced I was going to play for England. I didn't realise that I was a girl, and at that point, I didn't even see girls play football on the television. I only saw boys, men. That was a big blow to me. Didn't you used to sneak off to play football at a school that wasn't yours? I did, regularly. Yeah. My mum and dad be gonna say, um, I know, this is me being naughty again, you see. You're not gonna get away with that.

Presenter13:52

Yeah.

Dame Sue Campbell13:53

There was no time

Presenter13:53

Well, and there's a lot of story.

Dame Sue Campbell13:53

Oh alright then. Um yes, my m my mum and dad were very keen on education so they sent me to a private school. But on the bus on the way there was the Chilwill Primary School and that's where Brian Carrier and all my mates played and they used to tell me I played before school, during lunchtime and after school and I thought well I could go and do that so I decided to get off the bus early and go and play footy.

Dame Sue Campbell14:17

It was only when my parents discovered I wasn't going to school that I was hiding in a bush somewhere and just playing football. How did they find out? School rang to find out why I wasn't coming into school. Anyway, I moved to that school then so I could actually get some schooling as well as play football. Yeah, so that yes, naughty.

Presenter14:32

You were a pentathlete at school and university and you played netball for England. You were the captain of the under twenty ones while at college, while you were training to be a PE teacher. How would you describe women's sport at the time? I mean, it took a lot of commitment in those days.

Dame Sue Campbell14:46

It did, and playing for your country in those days, you know, you bought your own kit or you borrowed it and then had to hand it back. You know, you paid your own transport, sometimes you had to find your own accommodation. It was a real commitment. I wasn't the best player by a long way. I warmed an awful lot of benches. I was always disappointed I was sitting on the bench, but equally, I learnt a lot sitting on the bench. And the times I did play, you know, when you pull on for the first time a shirt with your country's name on the back, goosebumps doesn't describe it. You know, your mouth's dry, your tongue sticks to the roof of your mouth, you're so anxious, and yet you're so proud. It's a really strange combination of feelings. And to hear that national anthem played, even now, it still absolutely makes me feel so vibrant, so alive, so connected to that moment when you pull that shirt on.

Dame Sue Campbell15:45

What are we going to hear next, Sue?

Dame Sue Campbell15:47

Well, you're going to hear Land of Hope and Glory. You know, it's the second most meaningful song to me, and I love The Last Night of the Proms, where.

Dame Sue Campbell15:56

There's the joy of people enjoying and celebrating, just being together and Land of Hope and Glory sort of speaks volumes to me about being proud of your country, proud of who you are and proud to be part of something very special.

Presenter17:03

Elgar's Land of Hope and Glory performed at the last night of the proms by the BBC Symphony Chorus, BBC Symphony Orchestra, conducted by James Lofferin.

Presenter17:13

Sue Campbell, your dad, who you've described so beautifully, I mean, he sounds incredibly lovely, you're clearly very, very close. He died when you were just twenty one. What kind of impact did that have on you?

Dame Sue Campbell17:25

I think, um

Dame Sue Campbell17:28

The initial response was to be concerned for mum because she had nursed him at home. He'd wanted to stay at home and he'd been ill for a long time. And she was very close to exhaustion. So your focus went from yourself really to looking after my mother. And then, as I began to kind of move forward,

Dame Sue Campbell17:51

I think it had a deep psychological impact on me. And bit by bit I realized I was falling into I won't call it depression, but a sort of introspective feeling which I'd not recogni I'd never had before, and I I became anorexic. But I think on reflection it was probably a a a deep sadness, a deep feeling of loss, a deep feeling of confusion really.

Dame Sue Campbell18:22

And I was poorly I mean I carried on playing international sport believe it or not but I really if you see some pictures of me in those days you kind of think oh my goodness so I I I gradually progressively got more and more ill and remember I was a very determined, hardworking, very focused so the minute I started to do something I could take it to an extreme and it frightened my mum to death.

Dame Sue Campbell18:48

You know, I always say my mother gave me life twice, really, when I was born and then again at that moment.

Dame Sue Campbell18:55

Yeah.

Presenter18:55

What happened?

Dame Sue Campbell18:56

Two.

Dame Sue Campbell18:57

Um well I collapsed um

Dame Sue Campbell18:59

I had a bit of flu or something and I collapsed and I remember mum and her sister trying to get me to the toilet. I heard her sister say to my mother, She's going to die, you know and I was thinking, Who on earth are they talking about? And then I kind of started to think, Oh my God, are they talking about me?

Dame Sue Campbell19:15

And then the doctor came and he said, Look, you know, sort of not I don't give up on you. He didn't quite use those words, but he basically said, Look, this is really serious now and he said, I hope you realize you're having a huge impact on your mother.

Dame Sue Campbell19:26

And I said, What do you mean? He said, Well, you're making her ill.

Dame Sue Campbell19:29

And

Dame Sue Campbell19:31

I she came in and I said, Mamma, you know, I'm I'm so sorry and she started to cry.

Speaker 419:35

Hmm.

Dame Sue Campbell19:36

And I said, could I have some rice pudding or something?

Dame Sue Campbell19:39

And she just looked at me. She said, You want my rice pudding? I go, Yes, I'll have your rice pudding. And that love bond between the two of us was enough.

Dame Sue Campbell19:47

to slowly and it is slow.

Dame Sue Campbell19:49

to re-engage me back and to start to rebuild myself.

Dame Sue Campbell19:54

How long did it take?

Presenter19:54

to get better.

Dame Sue Campbell19:55

The

Dame Sue Campbell19:56

I think a lot it takes you a lot longer than you realise. You know, long after I wasn't thin or looking ill, I would look and go, well I won't do that. Now everyone will tell you my favourite food is chips. Having said that, I've been really careful with diet, or I still am. You know, I don't eat lavishly now, but I certainly eat well now.

Dame Sue Campbell20:18

Did it change your relationship with your mother?

Presenter20:19

Yeah. What you went through together.

Dame Sue Campbell20:22

It made it a stronger bond, a closeness that no one could have ever explained to us. I mean, we already were close, and I loved her, and she loved me. Gosh, did she love me? Because she put up with some stuff. But that moment of recognising that she meant more to me than I meant to myself, that moment when I asked for the rice pudding, was about recognising my mum was more important than I was.

Dame Sue Campbell20:48

That was a special moment for the pair of us, and I think, you know, we had some wonderfully, very funny and enjoyable times together after that.

Presenter20:55

You mentioned how good you always were at being regimented. It goes back to the training mentality. And of course, athletes are keenly aware of their weight, their body metrics, the training regime that they might be taking on. There's a lot of control there over their diet and exercise. How big an issue do you think disordered eating is in sport now?

Dame Sue Campbell20:59

Yeah.

Dame Sue Campbell21:01

Yeah.

Speaker 121:04

The metrics, you know, the

Dame Sue Campbell21:16

Um

Dame Sue Campbell21:18

I think it can become an issue. I think you've got to be very careful with today's young women. You know, they're bombarded on social media by what they're meant to look like and what they're not meant to look like. And you add that, that sporting mentality, which is a determined and willful mentality to be the best, whatever you do, even if it's dieting.

Dame Sue Campbell21:37

You have to be clear that you have to marry up the intake with the output. So whatever your training regime, you have to check the input marries with the output. That's really critical.

Presenter21:50

Let's go with the music. What are we going to hear next to? Why have you chosen this one?

Dame Sue Campbell21:53

Um well, this one is really a reflection of my teaching days in Wally Range. And when I got to Manchester, I thought my job as a PE teacher was to teach netball, hockey, gymnastics, dance, tennis and athletics. And very quickly, the kids in the school taught me that actually my job was to teach children.

Dame Sue Campbell22:12

And what they showed me was that you should never judge a book by its cover, because beneath some of those very challenging, very unhappy young people were some remarkable women. And I've chosen the Susan Boyle moment. If you remember when she was on Britain, she's got talent and she came out for her audition. When she came on stage and everyone was laughing at her and then the music started.

Dame Sue Campbell22:40

And it's that wonderful message, never judge a child, a young person, by what you think you see. Just look a little deeper and you'll find something special.

Speaker 422:51

But the tigers come at night.

Dame Sue Campbell22:51

But the tigers come at night.

Speaker 422:57

With a voice as soft as thunder

Speaker 423:04

As they tear your hopes apart.

Dame Sue Campbell23:05

Tear your finger.

Speaker 423:11

And they turn for dream to share.

Speaker 423:26

Dream he comes

Presenter23:31

Susan Boyle and I dreamed a dream, taking you back to your days as a PE teacher, Sue Campbell. I think it was 4-0 your class, wasn't it? Yeah, it was, yeah. Wally Range School in Manchester. So talk me through that first lesson then. So you're ready and waiting to go. Clipboard, polished shoes.

Dame Sue Campbell23:39

Yeah.

Speaker 123:41

Manchester.

Dame Sue Campbell23:47

Yeah, I looked the part. Um, been through three years of very good professional development at Bedford College of Physical Education, done my teaching practice at Dame Alice Harper School.

Dame Sue Campbell23:57

Where the children all came changed and ready to be told what to do. So, first lesson.

Speaker 124:00

Uh

Presenter24:00

Boom.

Dame Sue Campbell24:03

Net ball, standing in the changing room, bag of balls, clipboard with lesson plan, track suit perfectly clean, shirt very clean and neatly ironed. And I waited and the bell went and nobody came. Nobody. Well I started to run up the corridor which of course is a no-no in school, you should never run on corridors, but uh I'm running past the toilets when I hear noise. So I go in and yes, sure enough there's four O all having a cigarette.

Presenter24:15

Nobody

Dame Sue Campbell24:28

And in all the three years I was at Bedford, no one said, This is what you do with your class when you find them in a toilet having a cigarette. I said, What did you do?

Dame Sue Campbell24:36

I nearly fainted actually, so it was nothing heroic. I knew I should be shouting at them, but I kind of couldn't quite.

Dame Sue Campbell24:44

I said, excuse me, are you for Elliot? Yeah. I said, I'm your PG. Don't do PA, Miss. They said, it breaks your nails.

Dame Sue Campbell24:51

So I went, uh and at that point I was completely stumped and I really did think I was gonna faint so I sat on the floor which turned out to be the best thing I could do and one of them walked over and stood over me and she said you look terrible miss would you like a cigarette and I went no thank you and then I think what am I doing I'm having a conversation here about smoking and then I asked them what they did and they told me they like to go clubbing and I said do you like to dance yes well how about next week you bring the music you like to dance to and come in the gym you don't have to change if that's an issue sure enough they showed up not necessarily on time but they showed up and they danced and after a few weeks they were bored and the same person that had offered me the cigarette

Speaker 425:25

Yeah.

Dame Sue Campbell25:31

came to see me and said we'd like to form a dance group. We want to compete in the dance. Opportunities are in Manchester. She was the most feared kid in school. She had a big reputation, not a positive one.

Dame Sue Campbell25:44

Turned out to be a great leader, very good teacher. With a little help from me, she learnt to read more effectively, and she wasn't a great reader, but because she had to do the choreography, we had to teach her words. And after school, she went back to college and went on to work in the health service. So, you know, given the right context, sport, dance, can change lives. And if you label children as bad, naughty, unhelpful, unkind, I'm afraid that's what they are.

Dame Sue Campbell26:17

And if you start to believe in them, they come slowly towards you, and then you can do something very special with them. And she was the first person that made me realize the power of sport to change your life.

Presenter26:28

I quoted you at the beginning saying that sport and music are two access points to very hard to reach kids. What is it about those things, do you think? Why are they a good way to reach those kids?

Dame Sue Campbell26:33

How to reach kids.

Dame Sue Campbell26:39

I think they reach kids in a different way. If you are not a a youngster that likes to sit in a classroom and learn in a particular style I know modern teaching has moved on, but you know, you used to plonk people down, used to say, Be quiet, listen, and off you would go.

Dame Sue Campbell26:58

If you learn through different means, in other words, you don't just learn in a cerebral way, you learn by doing, you learn kinesthetically, you learn by touching your emotion, it unlocks something inside of you which opens you to learning. People won't learn unless they're ready to.

Dame Sue Campbell27:14

You know, what I did with those girls, I didn't turn them into great dancers. Many of them probably never danced again. What I did, though, was turn them into people who were ready to learn and wanted to get better in school. And that's the great magic of sport and music. It connects with young people in a way that the intellectual subjects sometimes can't connect.

Presenter27:37

Let's hear some more music. What's next to?

Dame Sue Campbell27:40

One of the things I learnt at Loughborough and indeed from coaching is that quite often coaches are the unsung heroes of sport. They turn up Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays, Sundays in the pouring rain. Everybody hears about the athletes. We hear more about coaches now, but you don't hear a lot about them. And I see them as the wind beneath the wings of the athletes. They are the people that make what is for the athletes make their success possible, but don't often get the credit. So, this is for every coach who's working at grassroots level in the pouring rain to say thank you.

Speaker 428:13

Did you ever know that you're my hero?

Speaker 428:21

Everything I would like to be

Speaker 428:33

Here we go.

Speaker 428:37

You are the wind beneath my wings.

Presenter28:44

Bet Middler and Wind Beneath My Wings. For all the coaches out there, Sue Campbell. Absolutely. In nineteen ninety five, you co founded the Youth Sports Trust. That was with businessman John Beckwith. How did you meet? Tell me about your first meeting.

Dame Sue Campbell28:58

Yeah he started off by asking me what I would spend a million pounds on.

Dame Sue Campbell29:02

I want to know what you would do if we could do everything in youth sport. So I got a piece of paper and I started describing it. Well, I'd start with primary school and I'd do this and this and then you know, then I'd do this and then I'd do this.

Dame Sue Campbell29:14

And he said, I really like that. So those are really interesting building blocks. Can you do that on a million pounds? I said, well, no, but I'm really good at finding other money. Which I had I'd gained a reputation already for being able to find money. So he said, okay, well, I want to do it. But I'm only going to do it if you come and work for me. And that was the beginning of the conversation. So Youth Sport Trust was born. And what was your motivation?

Presenter29:38

Mission in working with John and setting up the Youth Sports Trust. What did you want to see happen?

Dame Sue Campbell29:43

Well, it goes back to

Dame Sue Campbell29:46

Wally Range in a city, could I bring alive that vision that

Dame Sue Campbell29:52

If you gave young people a sporting start in life, could you help them do well? And there were many initiatives we did that showed young people who were engaged in sport, not necessarily at the highest level, but involved in sport, being active, were achieving better academically. Behaviour improved, parental engagement improved. There were so many things you could demonstrate that when you embedded sport in a school,

Dame Sue Campbell30:17

You changed the school ethos, you changed what people thought about the school. And so, you know, I think if you ask most parents, they think schools are already giving their kids lots of sport. Well, actually, a lot of schools are not giving their youngsters the amount of physical education sport they should be doing. And I was really lucky at the time, a Prime Minister and Secretaries of State that were really supportive, and we started to do something very, very special for sport in this country.

Presenter30:42

The organisation grew and grew, but as time went on, not everything that you chose to do was popular. In 2003, there was a collaboration on a voucher scheme with Cadbury's. Now, that brought in nine million pounds, but it was criticised at the time because there was rising obesity, and it was criticised as encouraging children to eat more chocolate. Do you have any regrets over that?

Speaker 130:53

Yeah.

Dame Sue Campbell31:02

Do you have a

Dame Sue Campbell31:04

No, no, I don't. It was a learning lesson, for certain. What did you

Dame Sue Campbell31:10

I learned how the media can take a really good story and turn it into a really bad one. I learnt that really quickly when they put a big volleyball on the front of one of the papers and said, you know, you've got to eat 4,000 bards to get this volleyball, which wasn't true.

Dame Sue Campbell31:25

No, the discussions with Cadburys were really deep, meaningful. It wasn't a quick fix. It wasn't just about money. You know, people like Paula Ratcliffe helped us launch it because she eats no end of chocolate. And the message was about calories in, calories out. You know, there is no bad foods. There's only excess. I think in hindsight, probably if I'd been a little bit more, I suppose, media savvy, I could have worked out that would have happened. But it was a hard lesson, well learnt. Would you do it again?

Dame Sue Campbell31:57

No, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. I am now the great as they will tell you in the FA, I'm the great advocate about making sure that the people we work with are the right people because I think it's really important. If you if you own a brand like the Football Association, which is so powerful,

Dame Sue Campbell32:17

The partnerships and allegiances you have are really critical because you're sending a message, whether you do it subliminally or upfront. So I think it's very important that.

Dame Sue Campbell32:27

Um we pass the moral test of how we do things.

Presenter32:31

And

Dame Sue Campbell32:31

What about passing the t

Presenter32:31

Test of dealing with that criticism and that kind of pushback, as you say, quite vivid by the sounds of it, if front pages and.

Dame Sue Campbell32:35

Quite vivid.

Dame Sue Campbell32:38

Well, a man called Andrew Coslett was the chief man at Cadbury's, and I remember the two of us being summoned to number 11, Downing Street, and being harangued by Gordon and others, I think it was, about what we'd done. Haranged by Gordon Brown. Gordon and several others in the room. We were given a pretty tough time, and we both came out and said, whew. But fair enough, he has remained a good friend. I don't see a lot of him, but he's remained a good friend. And life is a series of lessons.

Dame Sue Campbell33:09

Not every risk you take, not every judgment you make is perfect. I mean, we're all human beings and we make mistakes, but I think the most important thing is to turn into face into those when you do them. Not run away from them, not be ashamed of them. Say, you know, looking back, I can see how this has been interpreted. It's not how it should have been interpreted. Maybe we didn't do well enough to get the story out, but it was what it was, and we needed to turn in and say, okay, we pulled the scheme straight away, and that was the end of it. Time for your next track. What have we got?

Dame Sue Campbell33:41

Well, working at the Youth Sport Trust, a lot of the work we do is with young people who are in challenging circumstances. That's a theme, isn't it? All the way through for me. And one of the things I've learnt is that young people need to feel good about who they are. And it's really important that we validate that. And I think so much of what we did at the Youth Sport Trust was help young people rediscover that they were proud of themselves. And isn't that an important thing for a youngster to be able to say?

Speaker 434:13

So I step out of the ordinary

Speaker 434:19

I can feel myself ascending I'm on my way, can't stop me now

Speaker 434:28

You can do the same.

Speaker 434:32

What have you done today to make you feel proud?

Speaker 434:39

Cause they're about to make the trap

Speaker 434:42

What have you done tonight to make you feel?

Presenter34:47

Heather Small and Proud. Sue Campbell, you said that your job was about winning and world-class success. Now, that involves making some very difficult decisions sometimes, doesn't it? Deciding which young people, young athletes should get funding, how much, very kind of granular, specific decisions. How tough is that?

Dame Sue Campbell35:09

It's always very hard.

Dame Sue Campbell35:11

The reality was that we were investing in some sports and some individuals that no matter what funding you put in at that moment, they weren't going to achieve success. Excellence is a scientific piece of work. It is about surrounding the athlete with everything they need to find that one moment where they can achieve their absolute maximum. And some incredibly granular decision.

Presenter35:36

And

Dame Sue Campbell35:37

So you have it

Presenter35:37

So you had a team of meteorologists, I think, ahead of Athens studying the winds there.

Dame Sue Campbell35:39

Yeah.

Dame Sue Campbell35:42

Yeah, for the sailors, you have to know what the winds are like and if it changes at a certain time of day. So yeah, we send meteorologists out. We had an innovations team. We got them to search information, not just from sport but from all over the world in every medical and science discipline to look where we could find what's called marginal gains, where could we find those minute shifts in performance? Because when you get to the very top, everybody's good. It's getting every single element to be world class. We used an expression no compromise which has subsequently been misinterpreted to mean you know we were going to be hard on athletes. That wasn't what we meant. We meant we cannot compromise on quality in any of the support disciplines if you're going to produce excellence.

Dame Sue Campbell36:28

And of course

Presenter36:28

It paid off with that record medal tally at the London 2012 Olympics. An incredible experience. What were your best moments there?

Dame Sue Campbell36:37

Oh gosh. I think the one that

Dame Sue Campbell36:40

just felt so personal and so real was watching six young people light the flame. Every other Olympics has the flame has been lit by a well known athlete, and we had well known athletes who handed their torch to young people and those six ran round.

Dame Sue Campbell36:56

And at that moment these two worlds of mine became one. And that was a pretty special moment for me sitting there. And I was, you know, in the royal box. The Queen was there. She didn't jump out that helicopter.

Dame Sue Campbell37:09

Spoiler alert, but you know, magical, magical moments, and then Super Saturday. I mean.

Presenter37:15

I mean what an idea is

Dame Sue Campbell37:16

It was like Thriller Thursday at the Paralympics. It was the same thing, you know, those amazing moments. The pride, that feeling of pride in Britain, pride in our athletes, pride in what London had put on for the rest of the world was absolutely fantastic.

Presenter37:30

A sense that it transcended the individual sport. It was a national moment.

Dame Sue Campbell37:34

Oh, yeah. I mean, I I remember walking between the swimming pool and the cycling Velodrome at one point, and there was a whole bank of people standing up singing the national anthem, looking at a big screen where a recording of us winning a rowing medal, and they were all standing on the bank singing. And I thought, wow, it's what Nelson Mandela understood when he put that spring box jersey on to present that World Cup. That sport has more power, I believe, than governments to effect change in society, and I believe that to be true.

Presenter38:05

And what about the change? I mean, there's been a lot of talk about the extent of the legacy of London twenty twelve. It was meant to inspire us all to increase participation in sport generally and bring all of the social benefits and the personal benefits that we've been hearing about. Has it, do you think? And if not, why not?

Dame Sue Campbell38:22

Um

Dame Sue Campbell38:24

I I don't think it's had

Dame Sue Campbell38:27

I mean, if you remember.

Dame Sue Campbell38:29

Seb's words were that we will use sport to inspire a generation of young people to choose sport. To do that, you have to have sport embedded in schools.

Dame Sue Campbell38:38

And we have slowly removed it, bit by bit by bit. It's got less and less. And so I feel sad that, that legacy, which was such a bright and optimistic legacy and ironically got taken all over the world,

Dame Sue Campbell38:54

through a programme called International Inspiration. It was just an amazing programme where we changed lives through sport and we didn't seem to do it here, which was really sad for me.

Presenter39:03

We'll talk more about that in a moment. For now, it's time for some more music. Sue, Campbell. What's it going to be?

Dame Sue Campbell39:08

Well, I think

Dame Sue Campbell39:10

Elite sportsmen and women like the Lionesses or Gareth Singlund team or the Olympians, they get that one moment in time.

Dame Sue Campbell39:21

And it's the culmination of years of sacrifice, years of effort.

Dame Sue Campbell39:25

Fastidious preparation and they either realize that dream or that dream gets dashed on the rocks.

Speaker 439:35

Uh

Speaker 439:36

A moment in the time

Speaker 439:40

When I'm racing with Danny

Speaker 439:50

One moment of time I will hear

Speaker 439:56

I will feel eternity.

Presenter40:02

Whitney Houston and one moment in time. So Sue Campbell, you've obviously always championed school sport. The Blair and Brown governments invested very heavily in it. So how did you feel in twenty ten at the start of the austerity programme when the government cut the budget for PE and school sports by one hundred sixty million pounds?

Dame Sue Campbell40:21

Uh

Dame Sue Campbell40:22

Um, it's hard to describe really. I think from the moment Sir John gave me the the opportunity to work at the Youth Sport Trust, I worked so hard to build a vision for the future of physical education sport in schools.

Dame Sue Campbell40:38

and we were beginning to build a structure and a system that was really exciting. People from all over the world were looking at what we were doing. So when it got taken away, it was a little bit like watching the house burn down that you just built with your hands tied behind your back, not able to call the fire brigade.

Dame Sue Campbell40:55

It was deeply, deeply depressing and probably one of the lowest points of my professional career. People ringing me from all over the country saying, Can't you stop this? And I couldn't. I had tried everything I knew.

Dame Sue Campbell41:11

So, yeah, deeply, deeply hurtful.

Presenter41:13

Where are we now with funding?

Dame Sue Campbell41:15

Well, ironically, we've got more funding now than ever before. But I think and this is a difference in philosophy. You know, the reason we lost the money, the philosophy was that you gave the money to headteachers and it was up to them what they did with it. And some sort of centralised pot which had a sort of strategy attached to it was somehow too controlling.

Dame Sue Campbell41:39

Uh but that makes an assumption that everybody's doing the right thing.

Dame Sue Campbell41:43

And of course there are many head teachers who are doing the right thing in P and Sport, but there are also many for whom it wasn't a positive experience for them and they don't see its huge value.

Dame Sue Campbell41:53

And so, my view is the money that's being spent now is not being spent as well as the money that was spent before. I would love to see physical education well taught, particularly in our primary schools, taught every day, so that when a youngster gets to 10 and 11, we're as concerned about their physical literacy as we are about whether they're literate numerate. I want after-school sport to be something that young people can try a range of activities, and I want the school sport to be linked to clubs so that a youngster who's good can travel that journey and go on and do great things.

Presenter42:27

the most influential people in women's sport, and you've got a very strong track record of transforming the institutions where you work. Making changes can obviously be difficult. You've been described as a fiery presence. What do you think it's like to work with you?

Dame Sue Campbell42:41

I'm sure at times it's quite challenging, because I am challenging. And because I am both determined and resilient, it can't knock me down very easily, so I keep going.

Dame Sue Campbell42:51

I hope for those who work alongside me with the same passion, they feel empowered by me.

Dame Sue Campbell42:57

I think most people understand I'm very driven. And this isn't about me. This is about can I change the world through sport. That's my passion. And so if you care about something that deeply, sometimes you can be difficult to manage. So you're still driven?

Presenter43:11

And you've still got a to-do list as long as you're on. Often people, when they come to your time of life, are thinking about retirement. Does it ever cross your mind?

Presenter43:19

The dogs would like me to retire.

Dame Sue Campbell43:21

They'd be delighted if I would pack it all in. Well, the dogs might be listening. They might be listening. Well, no, Willow won't be, but Kelsey could be. Kelsey likes the music.

Presenter43:21

They'd be delighted.

Presenter43:25

They might be saying well no

Presenter43:27

But Kelsey could be, yeah.

Dame Sue Campbell43:30

But while I've got the mental energy and while I've got the capability to still maybe change one life, then I want to be involved. If I get to that point where I don't feel I've got that capability, and I always say to my colleagues, please tell me when that moment arrives, because I'm leaving, I'll go. But while I think I can change a life through sport, it doesn't feel like I should go.

Dame Sue Campbell43:53

One more Desert Island Disc from You. What are we going to hear, and why?

Dame Sue Campbell43:57

Well, this sort of sums up how I feel about what I hope we could all live like in society. And I know it's a bit unrealistic, but I think

Dame Sue Campbell44:10

We're very lucky to live in this country. We sometimes forget that. I've had a very blessed and privileged life, but I think we should all make sure that those who are not as lucky as we've been, we at least reach out and give them hope.

Speaker 444:23

If you see an old man on the street and his dying, remember his shoes coming your feet.

Speaker 444:33

Try a little touch, you see it's something that goes.

Speaker 444:40

Peranaturally

Speaker 444:45

We can chase it if we start giving. Why don't you want to reach out and touch somebody's hand?

Presenter44:59

Diana Ross and reach out and touch somebody's hand. Sue Campbell, it's time to cast you away. Will you stay active on the island?

Dame Sue Campbell45:07

Oh yeah. Uh Definitely. Swim every day, little little bit of exercise every day. I shall miss the dogs though.

Presenter45:07

Definitely.

Presenter45:13

You have to imagine you're walking then. We're going to give you the books to keep you company, though. We can't give you the dogs, but you can have the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and also a book of your choice. What would you like?

Dame Sue Campbell45:24

Yeah.

Presenter45:24

Longwalk

Dame Sue Campbell45:25

Freedom Nelson Mandela.

Presenter45:26

Why?

Dame Sue Campbell45:27

The ultimate

Dame Sue Campbell45:29

Missionary for me, you know, was prepared to sacrifice his own freedom.

Dame Sue Campbell45:35

To change the world and also really understood the power of sport to change politics.

Presenter45:41

We're also going to give you a luxury item to make your stay more pleasurable. What will that be? Law.

Dame Sue Campbell45:47

asked if I could have dogs, but I was told no. So I guess I'd just take some pictures that would remind me of this amazing journey I've been on and what a privileged life I've had and how special it's been to be in sport all my life.

Presenter46:01

We'll give you an absolutely gigantic photograph album and even include pictures of the dogs for

Dame Sue Campbell46:04

And that even includes

Dame Sue Campbell46:06

Oh.

Presenter46:06

What's

Dame Sue Campbell46:06

Certainly.

Presenter46:07

And finally, if you could just save one of the eight tracks that you shared with us today, which would you call?

Dame Sue Campbell46:13

It's got to be music of my heart because the way my life was set in those early years by my mother and father, you look back now and think I would never, never have had the journey I've had, achieved what I'd done without that.

Dame Sue Campbell46:32

And they did set the music of my heart, and I followed that music all my life, and I'd want to continue that, even on a desert island on my own.

Presenter46:41

Dame Sue Campbell, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 446:54

Uh

Presenter46:59

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Sue. I also hope that the photos of her dogs will soften the blow of being parted from them on the island. There are many sports people who've been dispatched to the isolation of our desert island and you can listen to their track choices on BBC Sounds. Among them you'll find Dame Kelly Holmes, Denise Lewis, Michael Johnson and Dame Tanny Gray Thompson. There are a number of footballers too, Tony Adams, Bobby Robson, Trevor Brooking and Jackie Charlton. Back in January 2017, as part of Desert Island Disc's 75th anniversary celebrations, Manchester United and England star David Beckham was cast away by Kirsty Young.

Speaker 447:37

So, David Beckham, you were famously then born in the East End, Leytonstone, May of nineteen seventy five. You moved to Chingford when you were three years old with your family. As you say, you've got both two sisters, older and younger. You're in the middle. What's your very, very, very earliest memory?

Speaker 147:53

My very earliest memory was my mum taking me to football all the time. My dad was working as a gas fitter. So my mum did a lot of the training sessions, did a lot of the games at the weekend. And my dad, you know, day after day, week after week, we used to go over to the park right near our house in Chingford. You know, there was a goal over there with no nets. And he would say, okay, hit the crossbar, hit the crossbar. And we'd do it for hours and hours. And that's one thing my parents have given me, that work ethic. You know, I remember my dad going out at six o'clock in the morning and coming back at 7:30, 8 at night, sometimes later. You know, my mum would make dinner for us. Me and my sisters, she'd focus on us as children. And then at 9 o'clock at night, she would have her old ladies come in and she would do their hair. She was a hairdresser. She was a hairdresser, so she would do that till 11, 12 at night.

Speaker 448:42

She's a hairdresser.

Speaker 448:46

You have said Of your dad, that all the hours that he gave you and all the time he took with you, you said he was a bit of a taskmaster. It was tough love, was it? Did he take it? Without a doubt, it was.

Speaker 148:55

Without a doubt, it was tough love, you know, and I remember playing for Ridgway Rovers on a Sunday morning and and if I had a bad game, he would tell me and he would go through every single minute of that game and just play home.

Speaker 449:06

And just to be clear, you were seven when you were playing.

Speaker 149:08

I was seven and every single detail he would go through and I remember turning round to him sometimes and saying, Yeah, but I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to. But when I look back on it, I think that was exactly how I needed to be taught. He always loved football. He had trials for Leighton Orient and things like that, but he was one of these players, A was always offside.

Dame Sue Campbell49:28

Yeah.

Speaker 149:34

Always offside, but when I started playing he gave up playing.

Speaker 149:39

You know, even though it was for a Sunday league team, he gave up playing, he gave focus, he gave up for me.

Speaker 449:42

He gave up for you, Digger.

Speaker 449:44

I said in the introduction that you are a man of many parts now. You know, you've done your own clothing line, you've got your own fragrance. I always see you on the world's best dress list. It doesn't matter where they're printed. You're this style icon, and from what I understand

Speaker 149:54

Does that matter?

Speaker 449:59

It started early. Tell me about you were six years old and you were going to be a page boy.

Speaker 150:01

You were six years old and you were going to be a page boy at a wedding.

Speaker 450:05

at a wedding and tell me what you wanted to wear, young David Beckham.

Speaker 150:08

Well I had two options, just a normal suit or the option of burgundy velvet knickerbockers with white tights and white ballet shoes. And I chose that, believe it or not. Did you feel the bees' knees? I felt great. My dad looked at me as if to say, Really? That is what you picked? Did you ever wear it again? Did you? I think I did. I think I did and I'm sure my mum has got that outfit at home.

Speaker 450:16

Yeah.

Speaker 450:27

That is what

Speaker 450:35

Not to football training, I hope.

Speaker 150:35

Right, tell me about this next track then. Okay, so this next track for me was one of the first albums that I ever bought because it reminded me of my dad. It reminded me of being with my parents on the way up to Manchester to go to the Bobby Charlton soccer school, stopping at the little chef on the way, having gammon, eggs, chips, and coleslaw every time that I went up there. And my dad used to sing this song really loud, but he was tone deaf, I think. Well, I definitely know that. And he'd play this whole album from start to finish. So it's Michael MacDonald.

Speaker 451:12

He came from somewhere back in her long ago

Speaker 451:17

Set up and the fool don't see trying hard to recreate what had yet to be created.

Speaker 451:25

Once in her life, she musters a smile For his nostalgic tear.

Speaker 451:33

Never coming near what you wanted to say

Speaker 451:38

Or did you realize?

Speaker 451:41

Never really was.

Speaker 451:44

Shit.

Presenter51:47

Michael MacDonald with What a Fool Believes. One of David Beckham's choices. He was speaking to Kirsty in 2017. Next time, my guest will be Booker Prize-winning author Anne Enright. Do join us then.

Presenter52:16

Yeah.

Speaker 452:16

Anna Delvey was due to inherit sixty seven million dollars.

Presenter52:20

I'm so excited about what the future holds.

Speaker 452:22

She secured huge investments for a project in New York. She was very confident in her words. And yet, it was all a lie. She's a con artist. Join journalist Vicki Baker as she d

Presenter52:34

Delves into a real-life scandal. We'll mix drama with documentary to tell the story of Anna Delvey's rise and fall.

Speaker 452:41

Fake Aires, a new six-part podcast on BBC Sounds. I was watching this whole thing happen thinking it can't be true. Download the free app to listen.