Stephen Merchant

Speaker 10:01

BBC Sound

Presenter0:02

Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. This is an extended version of the original Radio 4 broadcast and, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:48

My castaway this week is the writer, actor and comedian Stephen Merchant. Almost twenty years ago he found fame alongside Ricky Gervais as the co-creator of The Office. Appropriately enough, the two of them had met at work when Gervais gave him a job at a new London radio station. Their fruitful comedy partnership would take them from radio to television and from cult to international acclaim, winning a host of accolades and awards including two Golden Globes, three BAFTAs, an Emmy and four British Comedy Awards. Since then he's appeared in movies and on the London stage, starred in his own US sitcom Hello Ladies and written and directed the film Fighting with My Family. His creative spirit was evident from childhood, drawing his own comics, taking to the stage at school, and he was so keen to present his own radio show that he hid a speaker in his parents' garden hedge, hoping passers-by might enjoy his material.

Presenter1:41

He says I'm interested in the every day and the idea of big emotions being experienced in seemingly small lives. I don't need to see stuff exploding. The guy who runs the local karaoke night is more interesting than a pop star. Stephen Merchant, welcome to Desert Islands.

Stephen Merchant1:56

Thank you very much for having me, Nor.

Presenter1:57

It's great to have you here. I wonder whether you've been contemplating life on the desert island in the run-up to today?

Stephen Merchant2:02

For many, many years. Yes. Funnily enough, you were mentioning putting a speaker in a garden hedge and we used to do little sketches for that. And I remember the the the desert island discs theme music featuring in a sketch, but I for the life of me can't remember what the joke was.

Presenter2:16

There are many, many strings to your bow, as I just described. You write, you act, direct, produce, and I've done stand up to. I mean, what's the appeal of doing such a broad range of things?

Stephen Merchant2:26

I love this business that I'm lucky enough to be in. I just love every aspect of it. The creativity of it. I sometimes worry that I'm sort of jack of all trades, master of none. And if I'm acting, I wish I was sat at home writing. If I'm directing, I'm wishing I was acting, because the directing is very stressful, and an actor, you just get to sit in your trailer and people bring you tea. And so I'm always, you know, I'm kind of impatient for whatever I'm not doing, really. And I think if I had to choose a lane ultimately, I think the writing would be the thing that I kind of find most satisfying. That's got the most nutrients.

Presenter2:58

As we'll hear today, you've spent many happy and probably some unhappy hours DJing over the years. How was it choosing your tracks for us today?

Stephen Merchant3:06

Well, I feel like I've been mulling this list over in my head for years, and yet actually when you asked me to come up with a final list, I found it very hard. I think in the end I tried to choose tunes that were little kind of stepping stones on my life story, the things which always evoke memories or I think if I was stranded on an island would take me back to a time and place.

Presenter3:25

Well, let's get stuck in then. Tell me about your first.

Stephen Merchant3:28

Well, the first is a song which I remember hearing on a holiday with my parents. We would go to the same place in Devon every year and there was a pub and even though I was probably in my early teens, they would let us in the pool room. I remember there were some older kids and they seemed very cool because they were playing pool. And I would just hang around putting money in the jukebox. And this was a song that I discovered on that jukebox that I just loved. And I loved the fact that it seemed to be a song about the idea of reaching for grander things, seeing the world, adventure, sucking it dry, living life. Maybe that's a misinterpretation of the song, but that's how I've always interpreted it. It was The Hole of the Moon by the water boys.

Speaker 14:08

Uh

Presenter4:08

Uh

Speaker 14:08

I pictured a rainbow

Presenter4:10

Uh

Speaker 14:14

You held it in your hands.

Speaker 14:18

I heard flashes.

Speaker 14:23

You saw the plan. I wondered at in the world for years.

Speaker 14:32

While you just stayed in your room

Speaker 14:35

I saw the crescent.

Presenter4:41

The Hollow the Moon by The Water Boys. Stephen Merchant, let's talk about young Steve. I have seen some absolutely adorable photographs of you as a little and butter wouldn't melt. How would you describe yourself as a kid?

Stephen Merchant4:55

Um, I think I was always quite a happy kid. You know, I think sometimes about, you know, some of my kind of comedy heroes like Richard Pryor, you know, who who grew up with a very tough life and a I think he grew up in a bordello and his mother was a prostitute. You know, he's obviously growing up in a time of racism and

Stephen Merchant5:11

And you know, it fueled the anger and the passion in his in his comedy and I just, you know, and I don't have that really. I had quite a pleasant life. As far as I'm aware, my mother wasn't a prostitute. And um so, you know, it was always quite nice. You know, my family was always supportive and we never really shouted and screamed.

Presenter5:27

Your mum Elaine was a nurse, and your dad Ronald was a plumber, and he was in the office.

Stephen Merchant5:32

Yes, he plays the caretaker who will periodically kind of walk into a shot and just stare like a rabbit caught in the headlights. Which occasionally he'll get recognized for, you know, in a car park at Asda, which he's very thrilled about. And plays it cool, but you know he's excited.

Presenter5:43

Yeah.

Presenter5:46

Was there a frustrated actor inside him?

Stephen Merchant5:48

I don't think it was a frustrated actor, but certainly I think he tells me he was quite creative when he was a kid. I think he wrote a play and he, you know, wrote some poetry and stuff. But, you know, as he would tell it, he grew up in that period where, being a sort of working-class kid, the idea of pursuing a life of creativity was just not on the cards. You know, you leave school early and you become an apprentice plumber or whatever, and that's sort of life mapped out for you, really. And you know, I do remember as I got a little older into my teens becoming aware that he didn't particularly enjoy that job.

Stephen Merchant6:18

And that kind of was quite

Stephen Merchant6:20

uh upsetting in a way and I think sort of motivated me to want to do something that I enjoy for a living.

Presenter6:26

Did you watch a lot of comedy on T V together? It was it would have been a golden age that you were growing up in.

Stephen Merchant6:30

Absolutely. Watched a lot of comedy, particularly with my dad, and he introduced me to a love of cinema, in particular Laurel and Hardy, the Marx Brothers. And then together we would watch a lot of Faulty Towers and Monty Python and Last of the Summer Wine. I mean, you know, I would tape TV comedy shows. Sometimes I would even transcribe them and write out the script. I remember writing out the script of an episode of Some Mothers Do Avum, which is an odd one to choose really, because it's mainly Frank Spencer falling over. So I don't know why I thought I could learn from that, but I think I thought that maybe there was some kind of formula or some way of unlocking the mysteries of the comedy people I admired.

Presenter7:02

And was there?

Stephen Merchant7:03

No, I don't think there is really. In fact, I think it's the opposite. I think, you know, what you have to learn is that it is writing from instinct or, as they say, finding your own voice. But I think if I learned anything, it was just sort of some of the mechanics of storytelling and how to format a script, which is not probably the most glamorous.

Stephen Merchant7:21

Most exciting thing in the world.

Presenter7:22

You said that your dad grew up in a time when he wouldn't have had an aspiration particularly to have a creative life that wouldn't have been available to him. Was it to you? What were your hopes for yourself?

Stephen Merchant7:32

Well, I don't remember where I got this grand idea that I could somehow be John Clees. That was my sort of.

Stephen Merchant7:39

Overriding passion from my mid-teens. You know, John Cleese had grown up in Western Supermare, not far from Bristol, where I grew up, and he was tall and he was very funny and very British.

Stephen Merchant7:51

For some reason, I as such an admirer of him, I just thought maybe I could do that. It's almost like I thought, well, if they want tall people from the West Country, I can do that.

Stephen Merchant8:01

It was just a weird sense of sort of self-belief. And I would tell teachers: you know, I'd love to go to.

Stephen Merchant8:06

To the Cambridge Footlights, like John Cleese, and get into comedy, and they would just, I don't think they were rude, or I think they just thought, what are you talking about? You know, it just seemed.

Stephen Merchant8:16

Like something that happened to other folk. But interestingly, not to you. And I don't know why that was.'Cause again, my parents weren't negative about it. I just think they thought it was something I'd grow out of or sure, you have a go at that. Get get a sensible job as well with a pension plan. And yeah, I don't know why I thought I could do it. I have no idea where that came from.

Presenter8:35

It's time to go to the music. This is your second disc. Tell us about this one.

Stephen Merchant8:39

In my days as a mobile DJ, my friend Andy and I were only in our teens and therefore obviously couldn't afford to buy all the new records that came out. So we would very often have to tape the pop songs that were big in the charts off the radio and then play the cassettes at the discos and try and fade out Mark Goodyear or whoever was hosting before Bruno Brooks, before he came on to announce it was number one. I mean, I'm sorry to the people whose weddings we do. I mean, remember that the amplifier would often overheat. The music would just die, you know, during the slow dance. I mean, it was...

Stephen Merchant9:16

Terrible. But anyway, among the songs that was always a crowd-pleasing favourite was Raspberry Bray by Prince.

Speaker 29:24

Our time in a five is done

Speaker 29:27

My boss is Mr. McGee.

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He told me several times that he didn't like the kind

Speaker 29:35

Cause I was a book too leisurely

Speaker 29:40

Things that I was busy doing

Speaker 29:48

In a summer

Speaker 29:50

I saw she walked in through the outdoor, outdoor, she wore a red spirit.

Presenter9:59

Raspberry Beret by Prince. Hopefully not taking you back to any of the several weddings that you may have ruined, Steven Merchant, as a mobile DJ.

Stephen Merchant10:06

Yeah.

Speaker 210:06

Uh

Stephen Merchant10:06

As a mobile DJ. I think if you slapped Prince on, it would have been a it would have been a barnstorming wedding.

Presenter10:11

It never makes anything worse, does it, Flame Prince? Would you take any gig

Stephen Merchant10:12

Yeah.

Stephen Merchant10:14

Well we would take any gig assuming initially at least that our parents could drive us there. And I remember we did a scout jamboree once which might have been one of the biggest we did. It was in a big old tent and I remember playing Smells Like Teen Spirit and it was kicking off and they went crazy and there was a scout trying to climb up one of these kind of posts that kept the tent up and I remember an Archae came up and she went, switch this off and I went it's rock and roll love.

Presenter10:23

Has

Speaker 110:23

Which might have been

Stephen Merchant10:42

It was the closest I've ever got to feeling like a like a punk rock star, you know what I mean? That um I was breaking the rules, that I was biting the hand that feeds and I didn't g

Stephen Merchant10:53

I was not a rock and roll person generally. Despite the fact that looking back, running a mobile disco was probably cooler than working in a shop or doing a paper round as a teenager. At the time, I didn't feel cool. And that was a moment of cool.

Speaker 110:55

Yeah.

Presenter10:55

Despite

Presenter11:02

But that's the

Presenter11:04

That took up some of your free time. How did you get on at school? What kind of people were you?

Stephen Merchant11:08

Yeah, it was good. I was a good studious kid. I think I enjoyed school on the whole. My parents were very good at saying that an education was valuable and important, which was very smart, because I think I never quite understood why

Stephen Merchant11:20

People didn't study at school. It seemed like this was a few years we had to get through, and then it would open us up to the rest of our lives. But I do remember in the later part in my sort of sixth form, I got a little bit kind of cocky. You know, I knew I was a good student, and there was a handful of us, and we'd realize that if they wanted some A's on the end-of-year results, then it was probably going to be us. And it made us a bit arrogant. We swun around the school. Yeah, we're the A students, you know it.

Stephen Merchant11:46

But no, otherwise, you know, not a troublemaker. Kept my head down.

Presenter11:49

You said that you were tall even when you were very young. So six foot seven now.

Stephen Merchant11:51

This is

Stephen Merchant11:53

Hmm.

Presenter11:53

How is that? It can be tricky to be a tall teenager.

Stephen Merchant11:56

Yes, it's funny again. It's those things you wish you knew when you were young. If only I had realized that being tall is regarded as an asset. Everyone wants to be tall. And at the time it just made me feel self-conscious and I wanted to be shorter, you know, leaning on things, sitting down. And it's only now I realize, oh, I should have just embraced it and, you know, held my head high. So yes, I felt self-conscious, I think. And I think probably doing comedy or trying to be funny or doing school plays and trying to be funny was a way of sort of taking ownership. of standing out and if people are going to look at you they may as well look at you and think what you're doing is good or funny or entertaining rather than just pointing and laughing.

Stephen Merchant12:32

Yeah, I wasn't bullied particularly. You know, it's probably just teenage insecurity.

Presenter12:37

Mm. But you channelled that into performing. What kind of performing did you do?

Stephen Merchant12:41

I did some school plays. Um I played a comedy Vicar. I remember it was a play written by some teachers and I had to open an envelope and announce the results of a dance contest. And on the first night I opened the envelope and I said and the winners are two pints of milk and a loaf of bread. Sorry, that's my wife's shopping list. Which is not a funny joke, but when you're a kid and the parents are looking for anything resembling a joke to laugh at.

Stephen Merchant13:06

It went through the roof.

Presenter13:07

Oh, why?

Stephen Merchant13:07

And I thought, and they got a big laugh, and I thought, this is unbelievable. And I went backstage, and the teacher said, That wasn't in the script merchant, and I would live with it, love. I speak very much like that to older women, arcanas, drama teachers. Yeah, and again, I just think there was a little bit of a buzz at kind of both getting a laugh and also sort of having written my own dialogue. Now, you know, I've done stand-up, but I don't feel the need to constantly go up in front of audiences and feel the adrenaline of the laughter. But just at that moment in time, and certainly in my younger years, probably that is what I felt.

Presenter13:39

Let's go with the music. It's your third. Why are we going to hear it?

Stephen Merchant13:42

Well, I remember at university, it was probably around the same time that I was there that sort of the Brit Pop music explosion happened, and it seemed like that was the music of my generation. You know, I remember going to see Oasis in Coventry Polytechnic and persuading some mates to come and see this band I'd read about in the Enemy and being blown away. And I think my first ever TV appearance is the Glastonbury coverage of Pulp, and they push in on a woman who's dancing on her boyfriend's shoulders, but next to her is a very tall, very pale-faced man in his father's cricket hat singing along to Babies by Pulp.

Speaker 214:19

When I saw you next day

Speaker 214:23

I really couldn't tell.

Speaker 214:25

She might go in.

Speaker 214:27

So we both

Speaker 214:29

And the Soviet went with me I am meet what conquer now

Speaker 214:34

And I thought I heard you laughing When it's a moment tide were gone I listen outside I heard you alright Oh I wanna take you home

Speaker 214:47

I wanna give you children

Speaker 214:50

And you might be my girlfriend

Presenter14:54

Pulp and babies. So Stephen Merchant, university days are often times for experimentation, and so it was for you. It was at the University of Warwick that you were able to indulge your desire to dabble in radio. Tell me a little bit about the Steve Show.

Stephen Merchant15:07

Tell me a little bit about

Stephen Merchant15:10

You know, I think it was pretty terrible, but I think we were learning our skills. I think it was on medium wave, and I don't think anyone heard it. I think you you had to be in one of the cafes on campus to actually hear it. I mean, it was only a notch above putting a speaker in my mum and dad's garden and broadcasting to passers by. But um, it had proper equipment at least.

Presenter15:29

You were obviously starting to kind of hone your comedy chops. You were doing a bit of stand-up at this point, were you?

Stephen Merchant15:34

I almost did stand up at university and then the gig got cancelled and then I waited until I got back to Bristol and I eventually did a gig, again, which my mother drove me to. Um and I didn't let her come in, I made her sit in the car and went in and did my five minutes and

Presenter15:48

What was that like?

Stephen Merchant15:48

Well, it went very well and I thought, oh, yeah, turns out I'm brilliant at this. I cracked it and then did another gig about a month later and died on the arse and uh realized oh it's not as easy as I as I thought.

Presenter15:59

You met Ricky Gervais in 1997. How did that happen?

Stephen Merchant16:03

Well, I was keen to get into radio, thinking that was an easy life and that would perhaps let me do stand-up in the evenings and write sketches and sitcoms and things. And I'd read about this new radio station in London, XFM, that I'd read about in the enemy, and I sent him my CV. And Ricky was the person who read the CV. And I always joked with him that it was probably on the top of the pile because he was a very lazy man. And so he called me up for an interview. He had got a job somehow as the head of speech. I mean, that was absurd. Obviously, if you've heard him speak, you know, he's not, you know, it's not that he's not a good speaker. It's just, you know what I mean? He's not a refined speaker. And I used to joke with him, open your mouth wider, Gervaise. You can't hear the words you're saying. It's slurring. And he needed an assistant. And he called me up for an interview and he said, look, basically, I don't know what I'm doing. I've sweeped talked my way into this job. If you do the work for me, I'll make sure you have a fun life.

Presenter16:54

Everyone says you and Ricky hit it off straight away. Why was that, do you think? What do you remember about those early days?

Stephen Merchant16:57

Hmm.

Stephen Merchant17:01

It's just a simpatico sense of humour. Literally, from that first interview, if you can call it that, I mean, Ricky took me down the path.

Stephen Merchant17:07

You know, I was younger, but I think I was ambitious and I was enthusiastic and he was older than me. I think he's twelve years old or something. And we started going on the air occasionally with the DJs and kind of goofing around and we had a nice easy rapport and working with Ricky I just naturally fell into a slot with him. We would play around and we had a radio show in the in on Sunday afternoons and

Stephen Merchant17:30

You know, I mean, we just did what we wanted, really. And as long as you didn't say too many rude words, you kind of got left alone. And I remember once, once I joined the BBC, I was driving with a work colleague and I had XFM on the air. And I said, I've got a friend who's on air. And Ricky came on and was doing a bit of comedy. And the person I was driving with went, I hope your friend's not this guy. He's not funny. And I went, no, that's not him. Sort him out immediately. It was kind of exactly what I'd hoped it would be, really. Finally, we were radio DJs and we were getting paid for it.

Presenter18:01

But he decided to leave the fund for a proper training course at the BBC.

Stephen Merchant18:04

Yes.

Presenter18:05

Was that your sensible streak kicking in, do you think?

Stephen Merchant18:07

I think it was. Initially, I turned the BBC down because I was having so much fun with Ricky, and then I must have spoken to my parents and sort of thought, hang on, this is a bit of a golden ticket here. And so I phoned them back and said, please, can I do the course? And in the end, it turned out to be a real privilege because I got to go to all kinds of departments at the BBC and sort of see how the machine worked. And I like to take things apart and see how they function. And I learned radio production skills, TV directing skills. I did stuff with the BBC World Service. They sent me to Nairobi. I remember I interviewed a guy called Ali Barak. I still remember his name. He was a self-appointed vigilante in the slums of Nairobi who, during the course of the interview, by the way, he carried a sword. I'd like to flag that up. But during the course of the interview, he went off and arrested a guy, dragged him back, threw him in a makeshift cell, and then continued the interview. I thought, this is the coolest guy I'd ever interviewed. It was really thrilling. And so, yeah, I did all kinds of things, one of which was a training course where I was supposed to have a camera team for a day and film a little documentary about sort of, you know, the neighborhood news agent or whatever. And instead, I said to Ricky, why don't we, you know, use this crew and we'll do our own little comedy thing. And that became really the genesis of the office, and we were off to the races.

Presenter19:18

Well, we'll hear about that in a minute. For now, I think it's time for some more music, Steve. What are we going to hear next?

Stephen Merchant19:23

When I first started working with Ricky, I'd for some reason I'd got into hip-hop.

Stephen Merchant19:28

Which is absurd really. I mean why am I listening to hip-hop? It doesn't say a lot to me about my life. I very rarely have to take my AK to work. And yet for some reason there was a moment in time where I just really loved hip-hop and of the many tunes that you know I've enjoyed over the years this one by Warren G always puts a smile on my face and I've played it in a shared flat at university and I've played it driving down Sunset Boulevard in LA and it's always great. Regulate by Warren G.

Speaker 219:56

It was a clear black night, a clear white moon Warmer G was on the streets, trying to consume Some search for the E so I could get some foes Rolling in my ride, chilling all alone

Presenter20:06

Skip.

Speaker 220:07

That is

Presenter20:07

Side of the LBC on a mission trying to find Mr. Warren G

Speaker 220:08

The bad

Speaker 220:12

A car full of girls, ain't no need to tweak All you search, know what's up with 2-1-3 So I hooked select, on 2-1 and Lewis Some brothers shooting dice, so I said let's do this I jumped out the rock and said what's up? Some brothers bought some dance so I said I'm Since these girls peep at me, I'm on Glyde and Swerve These hookers looking so hard they straight hit the curve Won't you pick a better drink?

Presenter20:33

Regulate Warren G featuring Nate Doggs. Stephen Merchant, The Office, was that dream sitcom that you'd always wanted to make, a mockumentary about the working lives of employees at a paper company in Slough. So you were co-writing and directing. Ricky was starring. And it was very unconventional, the form that it took, wasn't it? Very new. Did you feel like you were reinventing the sitcom, doing something that had never been done before?

Stephen Merchant20:57

Not really. It was one of those things that it's easy again to kind of look back and sort of retrospectively see that. But at the time there'd been This is Spinal Tap and there'd been other people who'd done fake documentaries, so it didn't seem to us like any great revolution. It was just I guess in retrospect there wasn't anything else like it at the time and things were still in shot in front of a live audience and aside from maybe the royal family and here comes a show that

Stephen Merchant21:22

You know, it was very kind of dour, and you know, we used to joke about how we would drain the colour out of it so it looked like it had been lying on a shelf at the BBC for years and they'd finally put it on to kind of fill up some hours. It's like that same going back to that idea of when I was a kid thinking somehow I could be John Cleves. There was an arrogance about us, you know, I don't know where it came from. For me, I think it was just I didn't know better. I had the arrogance of youth. I think with Ricky, he had quite happily got into a groove in life. He wasn't trying to be a TV star. He wasn't trying to be a sitcom actor-writer. So he felt he didn't have anything to lose. And I mean, I remember going to a meeting with the BBC and we said, yeah, we're going to direct the show as well. And they said, well, what do you mean? And we go, yeah, yeah. And they said, well, how do you know you can direct? And we said, well, you don't know. We might be the next Orson Welles. And they went, yeah, but you might not be. And it never occurred to us that we might not be the next Orson Welles. Do you know what I mean? It was just.

Presenter22:10

Do you know what I mean? It was just Because we didn't know either. Do you think it was partly the two of you and the effect that you had on each other, maybe? I think so. I think.

Stephen Merchant22:18

I had this like foot in the BBC. I think I was quite dynamic and proactive. And I think Ricky he was willing to walk out of a room if he didn't get his way. And then I would go out and go, Ricky, what are you doing? And he goes, all the plan, don't worry. And, you know, and and

Speaker 122:30

Yeah.

Stephen Merchant22:32

Yeah, and I think maybe because he was in his thirties, they trusted him a bit more. He seemed like an adult. I don't know. I think it was cheap and it was shot in one location and it didn't involve dragons and CGI and I think they just let us get on with it.

Presenter22:46

The show was hugely successful and mentioned the whole trophy cabinet full of awards that it's won you. And by the time that happened, you still weren't thirty.

Speaker 222:55

Hmm.

Presenter22:55

What was that like, achieving the dream that you'd had at such a young age?

Stephen Merchant22:59

I was never complacent. I didn't take it for granted. I just think I thought.

Stephen Merchant23:04

I've wanted to do this for a long time, and everything I've done has been trying to move in this direction, and so here we are.

Stephen Merchant23:12

You know, um

Stephen Merchant23:13

It's again, it's only now that I look back and I think, well, how did that happen?

Stephen Merchant23:17

Yeah, of course there was just so many more variables than I thought at the time, but at the time it just seemed like, yeah.

Stephen Merchant23:23

We did the work and they've given us a BAFTA. Thanks very much.

Presenter23:28

There wasn't part of you that was thinking, well, I've done it now, and I'm still not thirty watts next.

Stephen Merchant23:33

I think that set in probably at some point. I think it was not so much in terms of the work, because I think Ricky and I were still having fun and coming up with new ideas, and that was always enjoyable. I think it was more in my my own life, in my real life, I sort of

Stephen Merchant23:48

I put so much energy into this pursuit that I think I thought that, you know, you got to this thing that you wanted to do. You you made this sitcom and that someone opened a door and went, Here's the rest of your life.

Stephen Merchant24:00

You know, and actually, that's obviously not what happens. And that, not that I was unhappy, but sort of, you know, I wasn't.

Stephen Merchant24:07

It wasn't like suddenly life was figured out. You were still having to figure things out. And I think that was the surprise.

Presenter24:14

Still waiting for enlightenment, then?

Stephen Merchant24:16

Well, that's it. I look back now and I think, you know, and I I often think that about people who chase fame, for instance, is that, you know, I know people endlessly say it does not solve everything. Fame does not resolve whatever it is that you need resolving. And that's true, but you don't know it when you're young. It it it yes, of course, success and fame is just

Stephen Merchant24:35

It's just another thing to deal with.

Presenter24:37

Tell us about your next disc.

Stephen Merchant24:40

Well, if you had told young University Steve that one day he would be the world's biggest Bruce Springsteen fan, I don't know that he'd have spat in your eye, but he'd have given you a piece of his mind. I think I'd dismiss Bruce Springsteen as being, I don't know, meatloaf or chair, just this very kind of MOR, rock icon singing songs about how great America is. You know, listening to Born to Run, the album, and not really getting it, and for some reason sticking it on again for a second time. And then some sort of piece of my brain clicked and I just fell in love with it. And I went to see Bruce Live and he was just electrifying on stage and just an amazing performer. So yeah, I just became enamored of Bruce. And this song, Thunder Road, was that first track on that Born to Run album. And I just loved the romanticism of it.

Speaker 225:29

Throw down the window and let the wind know that you're here.

Speaker 225:35

Well the night's busted up and these two ends will take us anywhere.

Speaker 225:42

We got one last chance to make it real

Speaker 225:46

A trade in these winds on sell wheels

Speaker 225:50

Climb back and on, spring down on chase

Speaker 225:56

Oh come take my hand, we're not tonight to chase the promised land of thunder

Presenter26:07

Bruce Springsteen and Thunder Roads. Stephen Merchant, you followed The Office with extras in 2005 and you acted with Ricky this time. Each episode featured at least one guest star who exaggerated their public persona. The show pushed the comedy even further. Do you think you were ever cruel to your guest stars?

Stephen Merchant26:28

I don't think we were cruel. No, I mean there was never anything that we sprung on them. They always knew exactly what the script was going to be, and if they didn't want to do it, they chose not to. And I think originally we began to discover that these famous people were fans of the office. And the idea that Samuel L. Jackson had got the DVD and, you know, had put it on one night in his slippers with his cocoa and thought it was funny and was willing to do a show with us, it was extraordinary to us. And our original thought was, let's do a show about extras, but let's have the real-life stars playing extras. I mean, literally walking through the back of a shot with no lines. And then we thought, that seems a bit silly if you've got Kate Winsley. If she's bothered to come down, let's give her some lines to do.

Presenter27:09

It's also the comedy of awkwardness, though, and so many shows and comics have followed suit since.

Stephen Merchant27:11

Though

Stephen Merchant27:15

Ooh.

Presenter27:15

What is it about that that people enjoy so much, do you think?

Stephen Merchant27:19

It's funny, it's not something that we set out to do. I think our obsession early on was just to try and feel real and make things feel real. That was certainly true in the office, and I suppose that just bled over into exorcisms. I think, you know, Ricky and I like anecdotes of discomfort. You know, he was always amused when I would tell him some awful dating story or some time I'd embarrass myself in some way. And that just seemed like so much part of life, and particularly kind of being British, it just always seemed very truthful to us. And I don't know, some sort of exorcism to put it on screen.

Stephen Merchant27:52

But I think sometimes it you know it was more painful for people to watch than we'd intended. I think it's probably like if you're making a horror film, right, and you know the blood is fake and you know the blade retracts into the into the handle that um you don't realize actually when you put it on screen it's oh, it's really quite distressing to see.

Presenter28:07

And were you ever faced with that? You know, did you ever watch Things Back and think, oh, and feel that kind of watch it through your fingers.

Stephen Merchant28:13

No, it just made us laugh. It just always made us laugh. I mean, it was like make the pauses longer and the agony harder. It was it was always entertaining.

Presenter28:21

And where do you see that your DNA now in terms of so many programmes that have followed in the wake of the office and expands?

Stephen Merchant28:26

Followed it.

Stephen Merchant28:28

Well, I mean, I worked with Asim Chowdhury, who does People Just Do Nothing, which is terrific. And I suppose it owes a debt in some way to the office. And, you know, he himself will will declare, you know, he was a fan of the show and it was an influence on them. And it just makes me feel old. Because when we started, we felt like we were these sort of the new kids on the block and these sort of enfant taribes and we can mock the old school comedy, you know, because we were the new kids and now we are the old school. It's kind of I don't know when that happened.

Presenter28:51

What's that like?

Stephen Merchant28:52

It's really distressing. It's really like you say, because so much of it happened when I was young, and so I just I still feel I have that energy. I don't feel like a a 45-year-old.

Stephen Merchant29:02

And so it's baffling to me that I would in any way be someone else's John Cleese. That just seems.

Stephen Merchant29:08

That just seems distressing.

Presenter29:10

Let's hear another disc. This is number six. Why have you chosen it?

Stephen Merchant29:15

I've always liked and I think there's always been kind of romance and a bittersweet quality to the work that I've done, whether it's Tim and Dawn in the Office or the movie Reconnected Cemetery Junction, which in many ways was inspired by Thunder Road by Bruce Bringstein. And I think a song like this, Joni Mitchell's A Case of You, it's just such a wonderfully delicate, beautiful song. It feels romantic, but it also feels sad. In a way, if I could trade it all, I would become a musician. And you could spend months trying to write a TV show and you'd never get to the elegance, the simplicity of the emotion of this song.

Stephen Merchant29:52

A case of you

Speaker 230:01

On my feet, oh I would still be on my feet.

Presenter30:23

Joni Mitchell and A Case of You. Such a beautiful song, Stephen Merchant. So your creative partnership with Ricky Dervase was of course hugely successful. You were so closely associated with him for such a long time. How was it once you started working separately, working without him?

Stephen Merchant30:39

There was no great

Stephen Merchant30:40

Decision to move apart from each other is, you know, it's not like we broke up the band. We just were doing different things, and I think.

Presenter30:47

You know

Presenter30:49

Did you feel a sense of freedom that, you know, once it's just you, I guess you can do anything you like?

Stephen Merchant30:54

Well, working with Ricky, I mean, you know, he is just brilliant. He's just brilliant. And so if you have.

Stephen Merchant31:02

a problem and you look across the room and it's him, there's a chance he's gonna solve it or help you solve it. And when you work without that, it's harder, right? You're making the decisions yourself. But there is the pleasure of, you know, well, I'll live and die by my own decisions. But I say that and yet, you know, when I've done other things, I've immediately sought out other collaborators as well. I do feel like the idea of sort of an injection of other energies, other fresh ideas. I was worried slightly maybe that, you know, Ricky and I would get into a rut if we weren't careful. There is that worry that, you know, you repeat yourself. And it's one of the reasons probably that I jumped from acting to writing to producing to directing and back again. You know, I did a stand-up and that was really tough and hard.

Stephen Merchant31:41

And I did a play and that was a nightmare, really tough to do.

Stephen Merchant31:45

And each of those things, I don't know, it feels like it's exercising a muscle, I just get itchy for something new.

Presenter31:51

It's testing yourself. Is it also proving yourself, do you think? And who too, if so?

Stephen Merchant31:56

Yes, it's definitely that. I think having had heroes, whether it's

Stephen Merchant32:02

You know, John Cleese or Bruce Springsteen or whoever it might be, I think sort of wanting to be the best at it and never feeling that, never feeling like I've cracked it, never feeling that I am the best, that I'm even close to the best, that I'm in the same conversation as the best. I do feel that urge to keep doing that. And it's not like I'm trying in particular to prove that to anyone but myself. I mean, maybe that awkward teenager, you know, that's part of that.

Stephen Merchant32:30

You know, I think certainly when you're young you wanna sort of show you want to be a more attractive to the opposite sex or you want the the cool kids to think you're cool, but you know, that goes away by the time you're forty five and

Speaker 132:39

You know fact

Stephen Merchant32:41

Now I don't know what it I don't know.

Stephen Merchant32:44

Yeah, I don't know who it it's not like I haven't had enough pats on the back over time.

Stephen Merchant32:51

People have always said nice things, written nice things, so I don't know why I still have this urge to

Stephen Merchant32:55

Prove to myself that I could do better. But I do have that, yeah.

Presenter32:58

Your sitcom Hello Ladies was about the length that your character Stuart would go to to find love. Now you're happily partnered up with the American actress Mircea Munro. What was your first date like?

Stephen Merchant33:09

Oh, it's just so ugly to say because we met at a LA Showbiz awards. No, it wasn't an awards ceremony, it was a party the night before an awards ceremony. I mean, how LA could that be?

Presenter33:19

A pre-party.

Stephen Merchant33:20

It was a pre it was a pretty party to an award ceremony. An award ceremony, I should point out, that neither of us were invited to. But um, yeah, we were there and we got chatting on the way to the uh valet. I mean, it is so LA, this story. It's so Hollywood. But anyway, we ended up in an all-night diner eating pancakes.

Presenter33:21

I didn't even know that was a fish feed.

Presenter33:38

Let's have some more music. This is your seventh. Tell me about this one.

Stephen Merchant33:41

Well, once I started spending time in LA and I got myself a place there and I was in this lovely house sort of built in the nineteen fifties in the Hollywood Hills and I was in my forties, of course I realized I have to start listening to jazz.

Stephen Merchant33:57

Um

Presenter33:58

Yeah.

Stephen Merchant33:58

And for some reason putting on jazz in that environment does feel appropriate. And then I was in New Orleans and I was making this film Logan with Hugh Jackman. Yeah, I've named dropped, no big deal.

Speaker 134:09

Yeah, I've

Stephen Merchant34:11

And I wasn't needed and I just wandered into this bar and this musician Kamazi Washington was playing. And I think if I'm on my desert island I want something that takes me back to it being in LA and being with Masa and just in that jazzy mid forties paradise.

Speaker 235:01

In the road.

Presenter35:29

Change of the Guard by Kamazi Washington. So Stephen Merchant, as you said you're in your mid forties now. Looking back at interviews in your thirties, you spoke back then of a certain amount of arrested development and of resisting kind of growing up. How do you feel now that you've settled down, embraced jazz, and all that goes along with it?

Stephen Merchant35:45

Yes, I think I have uh tried to embrace my adulthood a bit more. I think I'm a bit less restless now. I think I turn down opportunities, uh, and work.

Stephen Merchant36:01

Because I felt like for a long time I think I did sacrifice.

Stephen Merchant36:05

Things, you know, family events or friends getting married or whatever. Just, you know, it seemed like somehow career stuff always took a priority that somehow you could not show up to someone's wedding'cause you had a job you had to do. And actually, you know, that's not really the way you should do it. And so it took me a while, I think, to realize that. And so now I think I try and map things a bit more carefully. But I think I still have the urge to work hard. And I haven't lost that part of me. I haven't lost the love of what I do.

Presenter36:31

You said that you've met a lot of the people that you used to look up to, but I gather you've never met your all-time hero, John Cleese. But apparently your parents did.

Stephen Merchant36:40

My parents, in the way that I got into jazz, as they got older, they got into cruises. And they were on a cruise ship from New York to London or the other way, I forget which. And Cleese was on board, apparently, he was giving a talk about a book he had written. And they were very excited to go and see him. Saturday night, we're going to see John Cleese, Steve. We're going to see John Cleese. But being my parents, they got it wrong. He had given his speech on Friday night. And they turned up in the ballroom on Saturday. And it was just a lot of empty tables. So they were very upset and they were hoping to get a book signed for me. They asked someone in the crew, is there any way that they could get Mr. Cleese to sign a book? And they came back to England and they showed me this little camcorder footage of them in their room. Elaine, press play, press play. And they press play on the answer phone, and it's John Cleese's voice saying, hello there, Mr. and Mrs. Merchant. I'm sorry that you missed my talk, but I'll be more than happy to sign your book. I'm just wondering, is your Stephen Merchant, your son Stephen Merchant? Is that the same Stephen Merchant who collaborated with Ricky Jays on the office? Because I'm an enormous fan. And please pass on my best regards. And you can see how excited they were. So you can imagine how dizzy I was when I heard that. And.

Stephen Merchant37:43

That was a big thrill, and in a way, I d you know, I don't feel I need to meet him now. That was that was all I needed.

Presenter37:48

Maybe even nicer to give that moment to them.

Stephen Merchant37:50

I think so. Must be so, yeah.

Presenter37:52

Stephen, it's time for your final disc. What are we going to hear?

Stephen Merchant37:55

Well, like I said, I think there's always been a romanticism in the work I've done. I think I've always had quite a romantic spirit. I think it's shifted over time from the awkward teenager who felt that somehow he was an undiscovered poet that every girl should fall in love with, even though he never spoke out loud his poetry. You know, and to someone who's grown and is happy now in his relationship. And I've always liked love songs. I've always liked songs which are lovelorn or hopeful or sad or romantic in one way or another. And I think Nick Cave is someone who has written some of the best. And this is one of them, Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds Love Letter.

Presenter38:31

We're gonna win Tips of the hill

Stephen Merchant38:34

Uh

Presenter38:36

Handful of hopeful words and a

Speaker 238:37

Yeah.

Presenter38:42

Uh

Stephen Merchant38:42

Always will.

Stephen Merchant38:44

The guy is already the bird

Stephen Merchant38:47

That some I did not mean to say.

Stephen Merchant38:52

Someone did not mean to say that someone did not

Presenter38:58

Not mean the same.

Presenter39:01

It all came out the wrong way.

Stephen Merchant39:05

Let alone

Presenter39:07

Love Letter by Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds. Stephen Merchant, it's time to cast you away to your desert island. How do you picture yourself spending your time there?

Stephen Merchant39:16

Well, I think I'm quite good on my own. I quite like being on my own. There's times where.

Stephen Merchant39:22

You know, particularly in LA, I will not see anyone for three or four days, just kind of hole up in the house, in part because you have to get in your car, you know, to drive anywhere, to go anywhere in LA. And so I'm like, well, if I've got enough food in the house, why am I leaving? And I quite like that. But equally, yes, I certainly would get lonely. And I think I'm sort of practical enough. I'm not bare grills. I mean, I'm not confident about building shelter. But I feel like.

Stephen Merchant39:47

I'd give it a go. You know, if I get a splinter, I'm not crying to my mum. You know what I mean? I'm not.

Presenter39:49

To my mum. You're a big foodie. I am a big foodie.

Stephen Merchant39:52

I have a big food movie, so I could I could cook assuming that there was food. I'd like to think I could probably

Stephen Merchant40:00

Furries around, and if maybe there's some animals, and perhaps I throttled a chicken. I don't know. It's hard to know until you're confronted with that moment, isn't it? But

Presenter40:08

Yeah.

Stephen Merchant40:08

So yes, I think I'd be alright. My big anxiety would be not having a comfortable bed.

Presenter40:14

Mm.

Stephen Merchant40:15

It's very difficult when you're six foot seven to sleep in a hammock, so that would be a concern.

Presenter40:19

We'll give you the complete works of Shakespeare and the Bible to read. You can also have a book of your own. What would you like?

Stephen Merchant40:25

The book that I always think is just endlessly enjoyable to me because it's so juvenile, so adolescent. I remember when Viz comic first appeared when we were at school and it was like contraband. I mean it just seems so naughty, so outrageous. And yet there's something about Viz which always seems like they're on the right side of history and they got it right about things and people and events. And they have a section in Viz which is just made up definitions that are almost always rude about, you know, bodily functions or whatever. And it's just hilarious and they publish them as Roger's Profanosaurus. It's just a delight and so I take that and if I'm feeling particularly blue because I realize I'm not I'm going to die alone on the island I'd have a dip into that.

Presenter41:03

We'll also treat you to a luxury item. What would that be?

Stephen Merchant41:06

Well, I thought about a chessboard, but it's quite hard to play chess on your own. And like I said before, you know, I think if I had my time again, I perhaps would have gone into music. And I love music, and I love the way that many of the songs I've chosen, they've compressed the emotions that I've felt or the stories I've wanted to tell in three or four minutes. And so I think I'd take a piano and maybe one of those kind of self-teaching books and try and teach myself the piano. And then when you finally let me back, I'll just emerge like Elton John.

Stephen Merchant41:35

Where did he learn? This is incredible. These songs, they're magical.

Presenter41:40

And finally, if you had to save just one of these discs from the island surf, which would you go for?

Stephen Merchant41:45

I think it would be Bruce, Thunder rode.

Presenter41:47

Stephen Merchant, thank you very much for sharing your Desert Island discs with us.

Stephen Merchant41:50

An honour. Thank you very much.

Presenter42:04

Well, I think we'll leave Stephen there on his island, tinkling the ivories, maybe even playing some Christmas tunes. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. I loved Stephen's revelation that he was a late convert to Bruce Springsteen. Bruce has also been cast away. In 2016, he spoke to Kirsty Young. Bruce Springsteen, I'm delighted and not a little bit surprised to learn that you were a regular at the Friday night soires of the Young Men's Christian Association. That you were dancing the monkey, the swim, the jerk, the pony, the match potatoes.

Speaker 142:34

I'm not going to ask you to do them now. How did you learn the dances and what did you look like?

Presenter42:38

Oh man, I'm sure a complete fool, but before I could play the guitar, I realized that girls love to dance. And so I'd spent quite a bit of time in my own home mirror practicing all the different dance moves of the day. Were you good?

Presenter43:01

I don't know. It was good enough to get the girls on the dance floor. Glad to hear it. And what about the hair?

Speaker 143:07

How did you look in those days?

Presenter43:08

Pretty hideous. Let me see. I would use my mother's hair clips to pin my hair down, and then I would sleep on it exactly right on the pillow because I had Italian curly hair when I had more hair. You've of course played these legendary stadium gigs in front of tens of thousands of people. You have played at the Super Bowl in the intermission in front of, I imagine, tens of millions of people of a live TV audience, but your first ever live performance on stage was at the Freehold Elks Club.

Presenter43:43

What can you remember? How old are you?

Presenter43:46

I was probably Yeah. Maybe fifteen. What was your set? We had a bit of a stonesy playlist. We played a lot of R and B, some blues. And at the end of the night I would sing Twist and Shout. Did you feel at home on stage from the very beginning?

Presenter44:03

Yeah, I did. Uh I mean, I was nervous when I first started, but at the same time

Presenter44:10

It was a very singular place and I was I was seeking that out, you know, some place that was going to cut me out as as different.

Speaker 144:20

Because that sort of confirmed that you were different, you felt yourself different.

Presenter44:22

Yeah, yeah. I suppose everyone feels like that. But I was looking for some place to express it, and so getting up to that mic and doing whatever I did into it at the time,

Presenter44:35

It was exciting and

Speaker 144:36

Was exactly the same.

Presenter44:39

But I always felt good afterwards. Let's hear your next piece of music. What are we going to hear now?

Presenter44:43

This is It's All Over Now by the Rolling Stones. It's All Over Now held a special place for me because when I got thrown out of my first band, I learned the guitar solo.

Presenter44:55

I went home that night.

Presenter44:57

And I was pissed off, and I went in my room and I said, All right, I'm going to be a lead guitar player.

Presenter45:04

And for some reason, that solo felt like something I might be able to manage.

Presenter45:09

And so I put the record on and I sat there all night until I was able to scrape up some relatively decent version of Keith Solo on It's All Over Now.

Speaker 145:19

Will baby used to stay out all night long.

Speaker 145:24

To make me cry.

Speaker 145:27

She done me wrong. Uh

Presenter45:29

She heard my eyes open, that's no lie.

Presenter45:34

Tables turning now, hot time to cry.

Speaker 245:38

Cause I used to love her, but it's all over now.

Speaker 245:48

Because I am

Presenter45:51

The Rolling Stones, It's All Over Now, one of the track choices of Bruce Springsteen, who was cast away in 2016. As I'm sure you'll know by now, there is an incredible cast list of both singers, songwriters, and comedians in the Desert Island Disc's back catalogue. Among them, Stephen's co-conspirator Ricky Gervais, his hero, John Cleese, as well as Sarah Millikan, Miranda Hart, John Bishop and Alan Carr. And you can find them all on BBC Sounds. Next time, you'll have another chance to hear the track choices and life story of the inspirational American lawyer Kimberly Motley. And our first programme of the new year will be the fabulous Rupert Everett. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 146:42

Hello, I'm Greg Jenner, host of You're Dead to Me, the funny history podcast for people who don't like history. And if you enjoyed series 1, boy, do I have a special festive treat for you. Yes, me and Santa's elves have been bashing away in the workshop, and we've loaded his sleigh with a brand new episode all about, well, you can probably guess. So, join me, the hilarious Russell Kane, and our clever historian Dr. Fern Bridel as we crack cracker gags and get to grips with how the Victorians did Christmas. You can find it now and all the other episodes under your tree or on BBC Sound.