Professor Russell Foster

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio, Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week, I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. For rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:42

My castaway today is Professor Russell Foster. He describes his field of study as the single most important behavioural experience that we have, and his specialism is a modern day obsession. On average, we spend thirty percent of our life doing it. It's a critical life support system, and yet it remains one of the last great scientific frontiers. We still don't know exactly why we sleep.

Presenter1:07

Despite being labelled entirely non-academic in childhood, he developed a fascination with a toy microscope that grew into a love of biology. Early in his career, he discovered a previously unknown light receptor in the human eye that, even in blind patients, can receive light signals. His breakthrough overturned 150 years of received wisdom about how our eyes function. In his role as Professor of Circadian Neuroscience, he's continued to explore circadian rhythms. How do our body clocks work? How much do they influence our health and well-being? Why do teenagers find it so hard to get out of bed in the mornings? Hopefully, we'll get round to answering some of those questions today. He says, The one thing that really matters is to do the very best science you can. Fight for this using every gram of your intellect and every resource and ally you have. It is always new ideas and the power of individual creativity that matter in the end. Professor Russell Foster, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Professor Russell Foster2:03

Thank you, Lauren. It's really a delight to be here.

Presenter2:05

So Russell, you're the author of a number of science books and of course a passionate advocate of explaining science to the public. What might readers get from a book about cellular chronobiology if they dared to put one on their Christmas list this year?

Professor Russell Foster2:18

Hopefully they will get an understanding that every aspect of our physiology and behaviour is being fine-tuned by an internal biological clock that is adjusting our behaviour and physiology to the very demands of the rest activity, the sleep-wake cycle. We are utterly different individuals in the middle of the day and the middle of the night. And I think that understanding is really at the central of understanding much of our biology and indeed much of our health.

Presenter2:42

I said at the beginning that we still don't really know why we sleep. There are various theories out there. What's yours?

Professor Russell Foster2:49

There is a lot of controversy about why we sleep. My view is fairly clear. We've got a period of rest and we've got a period of activity. So, if, as we do, we gather information during the day, we can then have time to integrate that information. How does this make sense with what I've experienced last week, last year, and indeed what I might want to do next week? And so, we can start to play with that information. If we've built up toxins during the day as a result of activity, we can package them up and clear them at night. So much is going on within the brain that essentially allows us to function optimally during the day. So, my definition of sleep would be a period of inactivity to prevent us moving around with an environment to which we're poorly adapted, but during which time we perform a whole bunch of essential biology to allow us to function optimally during the day.

Presenter3:40

You want us to pay much closer attention to how much we sleep. A third of us have difficulty sleeping already. twelve percent of us, I think, have insomnia. What about the consequences for our brains of not sleeping properly, not sleeping well?

Professor Russell Foster3:54

Well, short-term sleep disruption is associated with profound brain dysfunction. We lose so much of what makes us special, our ability to lay down memories and then manipulate that information to come up with innovative solutions to complex problems. We lose our empathy. We become overly impulsive, so we do stupid and unreflecting things. And the tired brain will remember negative stuff and forget the positive stuff. So so much of what we do whilst we're asleep defines our behaviour whilst we're awake. And long term, sleep disruption is associated with a whole range of major health problems, across coronary heart disease, metabolic abnormalities, to even a greater susceptibility of cancer. That's why sleep is so important.

Presenter4:35

We're going to discuss the science of sleep in a bit more detail later. I do have to ask, though, as head of the Sleep and Circadian Neuroscience Institute at Oxford, how do you sleep?

Professor Russell Foster4:43

Actually very well. And one of the great things about becoming a professor is, you know, then you decide where the meetings will happen. And you'd be damn sure they're not going to happen at eight o'clock in the morning, they're going to be at ten o'clock, when my younger colleagues are alert and able to give their very best.

Presenter4:56

Because of them, not because of you.

Professor Russell Foster4:58

Oh, of course.

Presenter5:00

It's time to go to the music. Let's hear your first choice. What are we going to hear and why?

Professor Russell Foster5:05

We're going to hear Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, The Ode to Joy, and this is because I grew up with music, and my mother was really very clever. She bought this series called The Great Musicians, and being a vaguely curious child, I would dip into this. And I remember listening to Beethoven, the Fifth Symphony, and the Ninth Symphony, and thinking, This is utterly extraordinary. But then, years later, when our first child was born, Charlotte, in 1989, there she was, we were cradling her in our arms as we watched the Berlin Wall come down. And this music was being played, and we thought, you know, for her, she's going to grow up in a better, more wonderful world. And I think, broadly speaking, she has done.

Presenter6:52

Ode to Joy from the fourth movement of Beethoven's Symphony No. 9, performed by the Bayreuth Festival Orchestra, conducted by Wilhelm Futwengler, from a 1951 recording. So Russell Foster, that track introduced to you by your mother. She brought you up in Alder Schotz. She was a nurse, and your father, Donald, was a lab worker in pathology laboratories. So science was in the mix from the beginning, I think.

Professor Russell Foster7:15

Absolutely. I remember glass microscope slides and various other scientific bits and bobs lying around. And indeed, as a youngster, built my own lab in the shed in the garden. Oh, what was that like? It was fantastic. And I remember going to the shop and getting a big strip of Formica because it was going to be a white lab top upon which my chemistry sets and various other things were arranged. It was wonderful.

Presenter7:23

Oh, what was that like?

Presenter7:33

What were your experiments like in those days?

Professor Russell Foster7:36

They were fairly crude and of course a lot of them invoked generating smells.

Professor Russell Foster7:41

Deliberately, or was that? Yeah, kind of. But I used to love collecting bits of insects and turning them into microscope slides.

Presenter7:42

Deliberately or

Presenter7:48

Yes, you loved your microscope.

Professor Russell Foster7:50

Loved it. My first one was a little green thing with a tiny little eyepiece, which was very frustrating because you'd look down and it was a six monocular microscope, and every time you sort of blinked, your eyelashes would get in the way.

Presenter8:00

I remember that.

Professor Russell Foster8:01

And so I cut my eyelashes off because you could see down the microscope better. And my mother was aware that I had done this and she was very good because she didn't say, you know, what a ridiculous thing. She said, well, listen, eyelashes, you have them for a reason. They keep things out of your eye. So it's probably not a smart idea to have done that. It was a good explanation for why I shouldn't have cut my eyelashes off. So I accepted the criticism.

Presenter8:20

So you accepted that criticism?

Presenter8:23

You were an only child. How did you spend your time?

Professor Russell Foster8:24

Yeah.

Professor Russell Foster8:25

Oh, well, it was a lovely childhood because I had the books and the the How and Why Wonder book of dinosaurs. I had my microscope. I used to go fossil collecting. I used to watch insects. And my first memory is actually of looking at a of a lizard on a rock.

Presenter8:38

You were also a keen swimmer, when you were afraid of the sound of the

Professor Russell Foster8:40

Yes, I used to love swimming, and used to swim competitively for Surrey. I just loved being in the water and swimming. And it also was combined with my love of biology and marine life, and the idea of sort of seeing aquatic organisms in their own habitat was just joyous.

Presenter8:48

But

Presenter8:53

No, your dad left the family when you would have been about twelve years old, which must have been

Professor Russell Foster8:57

It's about 11.

Presenter8:58

A very difficult time. How did you cope?

Presenter9:00

Will

Professor Russell Foster9:01

I mean, I think it was difficult at the time, and it was certainly a big impact on my mother, but I don't regard it as sort of a defining moment. In a sense, I was immensely lucky. I was surrounded by a wonderful mother, grandparents, and I was loved, I was nurtured. And so, whilst I think for many people it can be deeply traumatic, I think it didn't scar me. I think I got through okay.

Presenter9:27

Do you think your personality was i perhaps shielding you from that a little bit? Because you've described yourself as being very black and white back then, seeing things in a very black and white way.

Professor Russell Foster9:34

See you think so.

Professor Russell Foster9:35

Yeah, I think I did. And I didn't I refused to see my father after he left. And I think that was uh perhaps now would be seen as a rather immature thing to have done. Then I think intuitively I thought it was a protective thing. So I suppose it was a a compartmentalization, which emotionally I think was probably very effective.

Presenter9:39

To paralyze.

Presenter9:51

Yeah.

Presenter9:54

It's time for your second disc today. What's it going to be?

Professor Russell Foster9:57

Well, this is Wagner's Ring Cycle. And when I went to the University of Bristol, it was so exciting. For the first time, I met people who had the same passion that I had about biology. And you could stay up all night and you could talk about stuff. And then I was exposed to live music for the first time properly. And the Welsh National Opera had their ring cycle. And I went, and it was one of the most exciting experiences I've ever had. So, the ring cycle.

Presenter11:25

Part of the finale of Act Three from Wagner's The Valkyrie, sung by Hans Hotter with the Vienna Philharmonic and the Vienna State Opera Chorus, conducted by Sir George Schulte.

Presenter11:36

Russell Foster, you are a trustee of London's Science Museum, and that must have been a full circle experience for you, because I know you were a keen visitor when you were a child.

Professor Russell Foster11:45

Absolutely. It's such a privilege to be associated with the Science Museum group. Because, as you say, I used to trundle up on the train from Aldershot, and I was lucky enough to meet the head of education called Joyce Pope. And she sort of took me under her wing a little bit and had keys that opened these beautiful wooden panel doors. And there she would show me a draw of the finches that Darwin had collected on The Voyage of the Beagle. And as a young kid, you see these iconic things, and it could only but inspire. And Joyce was just lovely.

Presenter12:16

So she took you under her wing, but at school your headmaster had described you as entirely non-academic. I mean, what do you make of that looking bad?

Professor Russell Foster12:22

I mean

Professor Russell Foster12:23

Yeah, well I I think that the school systems were very different. The headmaster took my parents aside and said, you know, you do realise Russell is an entirely non academic child. Um and I was in remedial classes. I just lived in my own little world.

Presenter12:36

You said that the education system was very different then. I mean, it presumably would have spotted your capabilities now?

Professor Russell Foster12:41

Capabilities now? I don't know. It's very difficult because we need to tick so many boxes throughout the education system, being slightly different.

Professor Russell Foster12:51

It can be a problem, I think. We try and make people all behave in the same way, and I think it's a great shame. Were you aware as a kid that you saw?

Presenter12:59

Things definitely.

Professor Russell Foster13:00

Oh no. I I just sort of I wish I could have conformed more in a sense. It's only with hindsight that I realized that slightly different perspective was probably quite useful.

Presenter13:09

What did you think you might do with your life back then?

Professor Russell Foster13:11

I always wanted to be a biologist. I remember there were some old bones in the woods and it was an old fox skull, and I remember labelling all the parts and things. It was just an overwhelming love of biology.

Presenter13:22

There was also a biology teacher who helped encourage your love of your subject.

Professor Russell Foster13:27

Oh, Colonel Dryland was one of my early biology teachers. He was terrific. And one day we went into class and he said, Class, sit down and watch me.

Professor Russell Foster13:36

And then he slapped his hands on his chest like this, and then he wiped sweat off his brow, and then he ruffled his hair, and he said, Glass, what am I?

Professor Russell Foster13:45

We had absolutely no idea. I am a mammal, I breastfeed, I sweat and I have hair, and I've never forgotten that.

Presenter13:55

Let's have some more music. What's it gonna be?

Professor Russell Foster13:57

Mozart's Don Giovanni. I'd listened to quite a bit of Mozart as a result of going to the Welsh National Opera at Bristol, but we went to the watershed and there was the Lozie film version of Don Giovanni, and it was just brilliantly filmed, and the music was perfect, and Kiritakanawa, her voice was just magical, and so that's one of the tracks I'd like to hear.

Presenter15:16

Mozart's Don Giovanni, That Ungrateful Wretch Betrayed Me, sung by Kiritikanua with the Paris Opera Orchestra conducted by Lauren Marzell. Russell Foster, aside from Colonel Dryland and his memorable science lessons, you had another biology teacher that you were quite keen to impress as a young man.

Professor Russell Foster15:29

So you had

Professor Russell Foster15:33

Oh yes, Mrs. Hoddinott, she taught me my A-level biology. And in those days you could spend the lunchtimes working in the lab. And I remember being in there and I was drawing and looking at this wonderful human skull. And Mrs. Hodynott came through and she said, What are you up to? And I said, oh, I'm just drawing this skull, Mrs. Hoddinott. And then I said, in an attempt to impress her, remember I was only 16 and this was 1976, I said, Mrs. Hodinott, you do realize that the male cranial capacity is 10% larger than the female. And without pausing, she said, Yes, of course it did, Russell, because you have to accommodate the male ego. And it was just the most perfect put-down. And it's exactly what I needed at 16.

Presenter16:06

And it was just it was

Presenter16:13

So you discovered a a love of physiology at the University of Bristol. And quite early on, you became obsessed with photoreceptors, and it would become a lifelong interest. So what are they and why are they important?

Professor Russell Foster16:25

Well, they're light-detecting organs, and the most obvious photoreceptor, of course, is the eye. But what we've got in non-mammalian vertebrates are these other photoreceptor systems. So the pineal is a photoreceptor in birds, and reptiles, and fish, amphibians. And I remember looking at this extraordinary book called Jesse Young's Life of the Vertebrates and reading this chapter about lampreys and the fact that they have not only eyes, but they have other photoreceptors located on the top of their skull. I'm thinking, God, this is so cool. And then rushing in the next day and speaking to my old third-year mentor, Alan Roberts. And then I ended up working with Alan on recording from this pineal eye of these larval amphibians. And it's extraordinary. You shine a light on this little structure and it changes its electrical activity. And in fact, it's responsible for making the animal swim when you dim the lights. This is just amazing. Here's a non-eye photoreceptor regulating behavior. And from that point on, I just got really excited by non-visual photoreceptors.

Presenter17:24

You met your wife Lizzie Rand this time. How did that happen?

Professor Russell Foster17:26

I knew Lizzie's sister, Susie, who was doing medical training at Bristol. And I met this sort of crowd of crazy medics, and they said, Oh, you've got to come to the medic ball. And I said, Yeah, sure, fine, that'd be great. Forgot about it completely. And so, on the morning of this ball, Susie came into the lab and said, Yeah, all ready for tonight. And I said, Oh my god, I'm sorry, I can't. I've forgotten completely about it. I've got a dinner party at the house. I just can't. And she said, Right, we need to talk. So we had a coffee, and I was made to feel like an absolute slug. And so I rang up an old friend and I said, Carolyn, what are you doing tonight? Are you free by any chance? And she said, Yes. I said, That's wonderful. Could you host a dinner party for me? And so I took around a dozen yellow roses, and Carolyn did the dinner party. I said hello to my guests. And as I was leaving, the toast was to absent hosts. Met Lizzie at this ball. Six months later, we were engaged.

Presenter18:20

Oh wow.

Professor Russell Foster18:21

Uh

Presenter18:21

Yeah.

Professor Russell Foster18:21

That quickly. That quickly. And we've been married for over 35 years. So many of the things in life you can't plan for.

Presenter18:27

It's time for your fourth disc today. What are we going to hear?

Professor Russell Foster18:30

This is The Eurythmics and It's Sweet Dreams by Annie Lennox. And I heard this song and thought this is just extraordinary, this amazing voice, and just loved it.

Presenter18:41

Sweet dreams are made of these. Who am I to disagree? I travel the world and the seven seas every

Speaker 218:54

Everybody's looking for something Some of them want to use you

Speaker 219:01

I'ma play you more

Presenter19:01

Want to get used by you Some of them want to abuse you Some of them want to be abused

Presenter19:16

Eurythmic sweet dreams are made of this. We'll return to sleep and possibly dreams later. But for now, Rossell Foster, tell me about working in America at the University of Virginia. Why had you wanted to leave the UK?

Professor Russell Foster19:28

I think the UK scientifically was in an odd place towards the end of the 80s. And the pivot point for me was being interviewed for a job in one of the great northern universities. And I'd articulated my scientific vision. And this oaf at the end of the table said to me, Yes, yes, yes, that's right, Dr. Foster, but I see you've just spent three months in the United States and spent time in Germany and Holland and even Italy. Would you continue with this gallivanting if you came here? And I thought, this is beyond a joke. So I thought, right, I'm out of it. So my response was, yes, I'm very sorry, but gallivanting is a fundamental part of my nature. I didn't get the job, and I took the job offer and went to the University of Virginia. And it was like going into a darkened room and somebody throwing the curtains open. It was almost like that undergraduate experience again, of the joy of doing science. It was fantastic.

Presenter20:22

And it was there that you continued your work on photoreceptors, and that led to a hugely significant discovery. Photosensitive ganglion cells. Please do explain them to us.

Professor Russell Foster20:25

This

Professor Russell Foster20:32

Well, we asked a very simple question, which is that you have this biological clock ticking away in the brain. It's of absolutely no use unless it's set to the external world. And for mammals, they don't have these non-eye photoreceptors. They have only eyes which regulate internal time. But our current understanding of how the eye worked wasn't really compatible with regulating the clock. So we started using mice with hereditary retinal disorders. They'd lost their visual cells, so were visually blind. And then we would look and see if they could regulate their biological clock. And they did so with normal sensitivities. And those early experiments led to the discovery that there's a third class of light-sensitive cell within the eye that is regulating biological time, and actually a whole range of other sorts of bits of our biology. And the conceptual leap of suggesting another receptor wasn't so huge for me, because I'd already worked on weird photoreceptors in birds and amphibians and things. So the idea that there could be something weird in the eye wasn't so crazy. But it took a decade to try and convince the vision community.

Presenter21:33

You were turning over 150 years of received wisdom about what eyes are for and and the limits of what they can do.

Professor Russell Foster21:40

Yes. And the exciting realization was that the eye is both the organ of sight, of image detection, but also the organ of time, because it can regulate the internal clock. And so it has this wonderful dual function, which has had lots of implications. And so now you can be visually blind, but you can still have your third receptor in the eye. And if that's there, you need to be encouraged to seek out sufficient light to make sure the internal clock is set to the external world.

Presenter22:05

It's time for your next piece of music. What are we going to hear for your fifth disc?

Professor Russell Foster22:09

Elgar and the Enigma variations, Nimrod, of course, and that's because we got very homesick. You know, we had these little babies and we had family in the UK, and I remember playing Nimrod and weeping quietly in the corner as it would play, because it's so evocative. And indeed, it's what we played at my grandmother's funeral, who I was very close to. And I think so many people have used this music for that generation because they were extraordinary. They had such generosity of spirit and kindness and determination to make life better.

Presenter23:46

Part of Nimrod, from Elgar's Enigma Variations performed by the B V C's Symphony Orchestra conducted by Leonard Bernstein.

Presenter23:54

Russell Foster, you came back to the UK then in 1995 and worked for 10 years at Imperial College London. In 2004, together with your co-author Leon Kreitzmann, you published Rhythms of Life, which examines the significance of our biological clocks. So circadian rhythms then, they were the basis of much of your work. How profoundly do they affect the way our bodies behave?

Professor Russell Foster24:16

They change essentially everything. Our physiology, our behavior, are all gated by an internal clock, which is fine-tuning our behaviour to the varied demands of activity and rest. So you've got this incredibly dynamic physiology, which we've largely ignored. You know, we teach our medical students that blood pressure is 130 over 80 or whatever, but actually, in the early hours of the morning, it can halve hormonal levels. So, for example, growth hormone, which is essential for tissue repair and regeneration, is almost exclusively released during the first half of the sleep episode. Cortisol rises in anticipation of activity and increased metabolic rate. So, everything is being adjusted and changed. And it's having big consequences. So, for example, our response to immunization. If you have morning immunization using the flu vaccine, you have a much greater chance of raising antibodies to the flu virus. I could go on forever.

Presenter25:09

There are so many interesting examples of this. I mean, when we might suffer a heart attack, when we might give birth. I mean, we're just starting to learn that these things are all connected to our circadian rhythms too.

Professor Russell Foster25:11

Yeah.

Professor Russell Foster25:15

Yeah.

Professor Russell Foster25:19

Exactly, yes. So between six AM and twelve noon there's about a fifty percent greater chance of having a heart attack than any other time of the day.

Presenter25:25

And why is that?

Professor Russell Foster25:26

Uh

Professor Russell Foster25:26

And that's because there's a circadian driven surge increasing blood pressure, which of course is getting blood to the organs in preparation for activity. And if you've got high blood pressure already, you're at much greater vulnerability of having a heart attack or indeed a stroke.

Presenter25:41

And when it comes to giving birth?

Professor Russell Foster25:42

Yes, that's the early hours of the morning. I remember a few years ago a discussion with the art gallery suggesting a 24-7 opening. And I said, the good news is that bladder function is going to go down overnight, so you're not going to have to clean the losers much, but be aware that there's going to be more births. So get people ready for those births that are going to happen in the early hours of the morning.

Presenter26:02

We have this hugely complex calendar inside us. Why is it important that our body clocks are reset every day?

Professor Russell Foster26:09

The classic mismatch between internal time and external time is jet lag. And jet lag is so ghastly not because we're simply five hours shifted from London to New York, but the whole of the circadian architecture, the master clock in the brain and all the peripheral clocks throughout the body, are at a slightly different phase. It's a bit like an orchestra. You've got this conductor sending out a signal to coordinate the rhythmic activity of billions of individual clocks throughout the rest of the body. And without that synchronization, they all play at a slightly different time. So instead of this sort of symphony, you have a cacophony.

Presenter26:40

And so

Presenter26:43

It's time for your next piece of music, What Are We Gonna Hear and Why?

Professor Russell Foster26:46

So this is The Draftsman's Contract, this Peter Greenway film with Michael Nyman's music. And when I first saw this, I was just bowled over. It's a joyous piece of music. I just love it.

Speaker 226:59

Uh

Professor Russell Foster26:59

Uh Uh

Presenter27:32

From the soundtrack to the film The Draftsman's Contract that was Chasing Sheep is Best Left to Shepherds, composed by Michael Nieman, performed by his band. So Russell Foster, some of the implications of your recent work are really quite challenging. The World Health Organization did recently declare shift work a probable carcinogen. So if regular sleep at night is so important to us, what should we be doing at a governmental level to encourage that and facilitate that for people?

Professor Russell Foster27:57

Two.

Professor Russell Foster27:59

I think that the 24-7 society is here to stay. So we are stuck with it. And so, for example, night shift work, what can we do to mitigate some of the problems faced by these individuals? So knowing that there are increased health problems, why don't we have higher frequency health checks in our night shift workers? Knowing that there's an increased tendency to diabetes 2 and obesity, why aren't we providing food on the night shift that is appropriate and will reduce the effects of high sugar and high fat? But at the other end of the spectrum, we've got to provide our young people with education so they know the consequences of why good sleep is important and how they might be able to defend their sleep so that they can get an adequate amount of sleep.

Presenter28:37

I mean, going without sleep is often seen as a badge of honor as well, isn't it?

Professor Russell Foster28:40

Oh, yeah. I mean, in in the old days, people used to bounce into work and say, I've done another all nighter. Whoa, fantastic. Clap on the back. Nowadays, I think people realize they shouldn't be in the workforce. I mean, I think increasingly we'll begin to regard people who disregard their sleep almost like smokers. This is not essentially socially acceptable.

Presenter28:59

And how widely is your work understood and known about? I mean, obviously you're very passionate about getting it out there and helping the public understand, but who isn't listening that should be listening?

Professor Russell Foster29:08

I think the problem is that in a five-year training most of our medics will have maybe one or two lectures, if that, on sleep. And it's been estimated that as a GP, thirty percent of the problems that they will encounter are either directly or indirectly related to sleep problems, and they simply aren't armed. And so one of the things we've been doing in Oxford is to develop a fully online sleep medicine program so that healthcare professionals can take this course when it suits them to sort of arm themselves with this information. And of course, everything should be evidence-based. And what's emerged over the past 15 to 20 years is a huge evidence base to tell us what's going on and what happens if we disrupt and ignore our sleep.

Presenter29:48

It's time to go to the music, Russell. What are we going to hear next? Tell us about that.

Professor Russell Foster29:51

So, this is Gilbert and Sullivan, the Mikado, and this evokes lots of very happy memories. So, the family persuaded me they wanted to go on camping holidays. Now, the idea for me of camping was just ghastly. Anyway, I was persuaded to go, and so we would drive through France and we would put Gilbert and Sullivan on. And the thing that I remember most was listening to the Mikado and the kids singing along.

Presenter30:16

The sun, whose rays are all ablaze with ever-living glory, does not deny his majesty, he scorns to tell our story.

Professor Russell Foster30:30

Hey, don't exclaim, I blush, for she is so kind to me.

Speaker 230:38

But fierce and bold, in fiery gold, he glories all. Yeah.

Presenter30:48

I mean to rule it, this fee must come.

Presenter30:55

Ah

Speaker 230:56

We really know

Speaker 231:01

The sign in God

Professor Russell Foster31:05

I went to rule the earth this heath.

Professor Russell Foster31:12

We really know

Speaker 231:14

Uh

Professor Russell Foster31:15

What

Speaker 231:16

The Spanish is the same.

Presenter31:22

The Sun Whose Rays from Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado, performed by the Doily Carte Opera Company, conducted by Isadore Godfrey, and reminding you, Russell Foster, of your three children.

Professor Russell Foster31:32

Yes. Oh. And of course all the success that one may or may not have. I mean, if you have a loving family and children, then, you know, I think you can die happy. And we've been so lucky. All coming home for Christmas. It's all, you know, just wonderful. And Lizzie and I just get immense pleasure from being with our kids.

Presenter31:47

Fantastic. So tell us a little bit more about the current arguments about sleep. I mean, people do talk about sleep hygiene much more than they used to. For people who want to improve their sleep, what should we be doing that we aren't?

Professor Russell Foster31:59

You need to go to bed earlier. 30 minutes before your intended bedtime, you get the lights low, you turn off the devices, you make sure that the television is out of the bedroom, the smartphone is out of the bedroom, the bedroom should be dark, it should be comfortable, and make the bedroom a haven for sleep, not simply another place to do work. We've got to compartmentalize and embrace sleep as an important part of our biology.

Presenter32:23

You established the Neuroscience and Circadian Sleep Institute in 2012, and it is the first of its kind. What are you working on now that most excites you?

Professor Russell Foster32:32

Oh, I think some of the things have been at the cellular molecular level, it's understanding fundamental mechanisms and then translating that to better health and well-being. And at the other end, it's the development of educational tools. A recent success has been working with teachers to deliver evidence-based education that the teachers deliver to their classes to help their students understand why they need to prioritise sleep and what's important about sleep. And our pilot studies have shown that that 20 to 25% of kids showing clinical levels of insomnia, we've actually been able to improve their sleep. So education is an incredibly powerful tool in this sector.

Presenter33:10

Time for your final disc, Russell. What's it gonna be?

Professor Russell Foster33:12

I love to cook, and we love to entertain and have friends over. And whilst I'm cooking, I like to have on a nineteen twenties track playing in the background. And my favorite is the cold porter Let's Misbehave, and it just is very joyous. Might be having you listen to this along with a cheeky gymatonic or a dry martini.

Presenter33:31

We're all alone, no chaperone can get on the

Speaker 233:34

Uh

Presenter33:35

Uh

Speaker 233:35

Bye.

Presenter33:35

Yeah.

Speaker 233:36

The world's in slumber, let's misbehave There's something wild about you child That's so contagious Let's be outrageous Let's misbehave

Speaker 233:50

When Adam won each hand, he wouldn't stand for teason.

Speaker 233:54

He didn't care about those apples out of season.

Speaker 233:59

They say the spring means just one thing to little love birds. We're not above birds. Let's misbehave.

Presenter34:31

Irving Aronson with Cole Porter's Let's Misbehave recorded in 1928. Incredible, Russell Foster.

Professor Russell Foster34:37

Oh, it's lovely.

Presenter34:38

So it's time to send you to your island. Now as both a biologist and a sleep expert, what are you most imagining doing, checking out the wildlife or dozing under a palm tree?

Professor Russell Foster34:40

It's no

Professor Russell Foster34:47

Oh, checking out the wildlife, definitely. I mean, but of course getting the adequate amount of sleep so I can remain sharp to check out the wildlife.

Presenter34:55

We'll give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to take with you. You can also have a book of your own. What's that going to be?

Professor Russell Foster35:01

What I've gone for is Adrian J. Desmond, and if I can get away with it, some of his collected works. His two-volume biography as Thomas Henry Huxley is, I think, a really fantastic achievement explaining the scientific world at that time in the backdrop of Victorian London. I've loved it.

Presenter35:18

You can also have a luxury item for pleasure or sensory stimulation. What would that be?

Professor Russell Foster35:22

Well, I want to go back to my roots. So I want a mask, a snorkel, flippers, I want a really good camera and a basic laboratory'cause I want to study the marine life and record nature and maybe do some simple experiments.

Presenter35:33

That's quite a large luxury item. If I made you choose between the snorkel and the lab, Russell, which would you go for?

Professor Russell Foster35:39

Okay, well I have the snorkeled mask fins and a really good digital camera. Can I have that?

Presenter35:43

Yes, that's fair enough. And finally, if you had to save just one of your eight disks today, which would be...

Professor Russell Foster35:48

Oh, I think I've got to go for the Wagner. Wagner, of course, was a really very unlikable individual, but the music is just sublime.

Presenter35:56

Professor Russell Foster, thank you so much for sharing your Desert Island discs with us.

Professor Russell Foster35:59

Great great pleasure.

Presenter35:59

Uh

Presenter36:11

So as we leave Russell snorkeling around his island, identifying all the marine life, there's just time for me to remind you of the many scientists who've already been cast away, including Professor Brian Cox, Dr. Susan Greenfield, and Dr. Jonathan Miller. You can find all those programmes on BBC Sounds.

Presenter36:29

Russell chose a track by Eurythmics, Sweet Dreams Are Made of This, sung by the inimitable Annie Lennox. When she was cast away in 2008, Kirsty Young asked her about that huge hit. Did she remember how it felt at the time?

Presenter36:43

Yes, of course I do remember that. And yet it seems like a parallel existence now. It's so funny that, you know, if you see a snapshot of yourself when you were a

Presenter36:56

teenager or or a child, it's something so familiar to you, and yet com contrasted with what who you are now, it doesn't bear the faintest resemblance, you know. Can you describe this this as

Professor Russell Foster37:07

Maybe not possible to describe, but I'm wondering who you were then. If you say you look at that person and you can remember her and she's still in there somewhere. Who were you then?

Presenter37:11

That person and y you can remember her and she's still in there.

Presenter37:15

Well it was before I had children, it was a long time before I had children and I think that having children was a huge turning point in my world, you know, in my whole life and the whole way that I see the planet. I was very focussed on music making. I wanted to be part of making great music. That that was always the the main motivation. There's so much to talk about. I want to ask you just briefly before we come to your first track. I noticed looking at all the tracks in a bunch here, your your eight pieces of music that

Presenter37:43

None of them, almost without exception, is from now, and almost all of them are from before when you started making music. Why is that? I will. Well, you know.

Professor Russell Foster37:49

I do, I am

Presenter37:52

One of the reasons why there's nothing really from now is because I mean I didn't know this consciously, but at a certain unconscious level one identifies with music the statements, the sounds, the whole identity of music was hugely important to me. And now I've in my years of wisdom, profound, solid wisdom, you know, now that I've been through so much in life and I'm extraordinarily evolved, I no longer need

Presenter38:25

But um these songs that we're going to listen to the words are in my head, the arrangements are in my that my head you know, from the beginning to the end, I know these songs, they're part of me. Music after all.

Presenter38:39

It's so personal, and people hear music, they love it, they identify with it, they personalize, and it becomes.

Presenter38:47

Part of them, and that is the great potentiality that that music has. So, tell me about your first track then today.

Presenter38:55

When I hear this track I go to a place in Aberdeen.

Presenter38:59

called the Beach Boulevard, and I remember walking down that street and singing that song over and over and over again.

Presenter39:10

It's a classic.

Presenter39:12

Very hard to put into words, but that kind of sadness, that melancholy, and it's a story about a person's life, and somehow I d I simply identify with this guy driving these long distances across a landscape.

Presenter39:26

Does that do it?

Presenter39:28

That'll do it for me, okay.

Professor Russell Foster39:28

Smoke.

Professor Russell Foster39:30

Uh

Presenter39:30

Uh

Professor Russell Foster39:30

Uh I am a liar.

Speaker 239:32

Uh

Speaker 239:33

The county

Speaker 239:36

And I drive the main road.

Speaker 239:41

Searching in the sun for another

Professor Russell Foster39:45

A girl overload

Professor Russell Foster39:50

I hear you singing in the wire

Professor Russell Foster39:56

I can hear you

Speaker 239:58

You through the wine And the witch of tall lineman

Speaker 240:08

Is still on the line

Presenter40:12

It really is a classic, Glenn Campbell and Wichita Lineman, the first track choice of Annie Lennox on her Desert Island discs in 2008.

Presenter40:21

Next time, my guest will be the screenwriter of Call the Midwife, Heidi Thomas. I do hope you'll join us then.

Speaker 240:48

Henry Aikley disappeared from his home on the edge of Rendlesham Forest somewhere around the end of June twenty nineteen.

Speaker 241:01

What we uncovered is a mystery that has sent us deep into England's past.

Speaker 241:07

To an area steeped in witchcraft, the occult, secret government operations.

Speaker 141:12

Now we have multiple sights of five lights with a similar shape and opportunity.

Speaker 241:16

And something that might indeed be altogether.

Speaker 241:21

Otherworldly.

Speaker 241:24

This is the Whisperer in Darkness.

Presenter41:27

Available now on BBC Sounds.