Kimberley Motley

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. This is an extended version of the original Radio 4 broadcast and, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:46

My castaway this week is the lawyer Kimberly Motley. If you happen to be in Afghanistan and run into trouble, hers is a useful name to know. Or you could try her nickname 911, bestowed to denote her reputation as an unofficial emergency service to Western embassies, foreign companies, and the pro bono clients for whom she is usually the only hope. American by birth, she was the first foreign litigator to practice in Afghanistan. Not only is she a woman, using her voice in one of the world's most conservative male-dominated cultures, she also uses the law. She studied Sharia, the Islamic code that coexists alongside the new Afghan constitution and has represented clients in informal jurgas, councils of elders who meet out justice based on their interpretation of Islamic principles. As she puts it, working the system from the inside out. It's a far cry from her earlier life. Twelve years ago, she'd never left the US and was living and working in her hometown of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, raising three children and making ends meet as a public defender. Though apparently, it's not that far from her childhood dream of being a DJ. She says, laws are like songs I put on my playlist. You have to figure out which ones will make people dance when you go to court. Kimberly Motley, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you for having me. So tell me more about this playlist of yours then. I know that you DJ in your time off. How does the comparison between the courtroom and the dance floor play out? Well, I feel like it's my job to understand what's the beat of the court. Some courts, they like hip-hop, some courts they like rap, some courts they like rock. And my playlist consists of the laws, the stories that my clients have, and my legal arguments that I mix in there.

Presenter2:30

It's remarkable to watch footage of you fearlessly quoting Afghan law to Afghan judges, and you're doing that through translators. How does that process work? Well, I mean, it's a dance. It's something that we practice before I go to court. So a lot of that process is not just me communicating with the judges what the laws are, but also communicating with my translators and getting them to understand not the words that are coming out of my mouth, but understanding actually what my message is.

Presenter2:58

And you've been working in Afghanistan for 11 years and you've called the judicial system there tainted. How deep do the problems with it run? I mean, there's a lot of issues with court systems everywhere, but particularly within Afghanistan, at least what I see is a lot of people are going to court, not being represented by attorneys, which is their legal right in Afghanistan. I see a lot of women, frankly, being railroaded in the system and men as well. Women more so for what they term as moral crimes. I've met quite a few women that were victims of rape, that were criminally charged with adultery. I've been to court where people aren't allowed to speak. They're not even allowed to present their case. There's been very few court hearings that I've seen where I've seen prosecutors bring evidence or witnesses to support what they're saying in court, but people are always getting found guilty. It's a very uneven justice system. And so I try to do what I can within the legal system. I try to fight for my clients within the bounds of the law. And really, the goal is not just for me to represent my clients, but also to educate my clients on what their rights are. So your fight, fight sounds like an important word. It's always a fight. I mean, it's always a battle. When I have a case that's a trial case, it's war as far as I'm concerned. It's a very active profession to me. For me, the laws are very tangible. I feel the laws, you know, and I feel it's my responsibility to not just tell my clients what the laws are, but to empower them and to try to convince them that they have ownership of the laws as well, that the laws are there to protect them as well. You mentioned getting ready for court and practicing with your translators. I wonder if music is a part of your pre-court process.

Presenter4:47

You know, it's funny because for every single case that's going to trial, I create a music playlist. And for every single client, I have the signature song for that client. And these playlists get me motivated, get me in the mood to fight on behalf of my clients. It's just something I've always done. So with that in mind, let's get to the music. Tell me about your first choice today, Kimberly. Well, my first choice is A Nightmare on My Street by Will Smith. And I grew up in the projects, and my parents sent me to Catholic schools. And there was this one teacher in particular, Sister Frances, who was very strict, a German teacher, and we were all like really, really scared of her. So anyway, one day she gave us this assignment and she wanted us all to create a song, a school song for St. Albert. And I was extremely shy as a kid. She told us we could pick our partners. And I picked Jamie Noble, who was a white kid with a stutter. And I picked Frank Valestieri, who was the Italian kid. And I was a black Korean girl. Now, in my school, we were the only ethnic minorities within the school. So the three of us were kind of the misfits in the class. And I had an uncle who was a DJ. And so I asked him to give us the soundtrack of A Nightmare on My Street by Will Smith so that we could rap to it. We thought we were like the beastie boy.

Presenter6:13

And it was so amazing because we were all shy. And it was just one of those moments where I realized that no one is just one thing. You know, we were all sort of labeled as, you know, Jamie Stutters, you know, Frank's the Italian kid, and I'm the quiet black girl. And I remember us performing it. We got Sister Frances to smile. It's a good memory.

Kimberley Motley6:35

Now I have a story that I'd like to tell about this guy you all know me and me scared as hell. He comes to me at night after I crawl into bed. He's burnt up like a weenie and his name is Fred.

Presenter6:37

That I'd like to tell my ba

Kimberley Motley6:47

He wears the same hat and sweater every single day

Kimberley Motley6:50

He wears it anyway. He's on when I'm awake, but he shows up when I'm s

Presenter6:56

Yeah.

Kimberley Motley6:56

I'm mad.

Kimberley Motley6:58

My stream!

Presenter7:04

A nightmare on my street, Will Smith. I'm slightly sorry I wasn't hearing your version there, Kimberly Motley. Oh, I know. I was like, then a nightmare on St. Albert Street. It was so bad. So tell me a little bit more about your practice, your clients then. There are 70-30 mix of paying clients and pro bono work. And it is the latter that have made headlines around the world of the many clients that you've worked with, which will you never forget.

Presenter7:28

Well, I mean, I think a client that really sticks out in my mind is Gulnaz, an Afghan teenage girl that was raped by her cousin's husband. A couple weeks after it happened, she actually went to the doctor with her mother because she didn't know what was wrong with her. And the doctor discovered that she was pregnant. He also knew that she wasn't married. And in Afghanistan, there is supposed to be doctor-patient confidentiality. But despite that, the doctor decided to tell the police that Gulnaz was pregnant. And so she was ultimately arrested for adultery, for having the audacity to be raped. And so when she went to first court, I was not representing her. The judges berated her. And one judge basically said, you know, you can't get pregnant the first time you have sex. And they told her that if she decided to marry her attacker, then they would release her. And she actually refused, which I think was an extremely brave thing for a young teenage girl to do. And because she refused, they gave her an eight years prison sentence. Forced marriage is completely illegal. It's illegal according to Islamic law. It's illegal according to Afghan law. And so I started representing Gulnaz. And when we went to the Supreme Court, they agreed she did not have to marry her attacker. And then she was given a three-year prison sentence. But that still wasn't good enough. And so ultimately, we decided to ask for a pardon from then-President Karzai. So I thought it'd be a great idea to add letters from family and friends to support her being released. Unfortunately, Gulnaz's family wanted to kill her because she had supposedly put shame on the family for being raped. So we decided to put a pardon petition online. And within three days, we got over 5,000 signatures, which was amazing. And she was given a pardon by President Karzai. She was the first woman to get a pardon for a moral crimes case in Afghanistan. And it made it memorable because, you know, at the end of the day, she was so vulnerable and so distraught. And to a certain extent, also so accepting of what happened to her. You know, up until when we had our conversations, she just.

Presenter9:44

thought she deserved it.

Presenter9:46

You know. And how do you work with that? When it comes to working with clients, if you're getting them to talk you through a hugely traumatic experience, how do you process that? What are you feeling when you're going through that with them?

Presenter10:00

Well, I mean, it's usually a very, very intense conversation.

Presenter10:04

I'm trying to dig and dig and dig. And in some situations, I think it's very therapeutic for the clients to be able to say, this is what happened, to get it out of their system. Because for many of my clients, this is the only way that they are able to get it out, which is good and bad, you know, because it's not like after I leave and get this out of them that I can provide them with services in a lot of places. But frankly, if I'm representing a client, this is the information that I need to know and understand. And do you get emotional ever?

Presenter10:40

I get mad a lot, but that that's really good for me. I do get sad, but I'm not sad in front of my clients. Clients don't want you sitting there crying with them. They want someone that's going to fight for them. I'm much more effective being angry than being sad.

Presenter10:57

It's time for some more music. This is your second disc today. Why have you chosen it?

Presenter11:02

My mother is from the northern part of Korea. She never likes to say she's from North Korea. And my father is from Bastrup, Louisiana, which it's crazy that a man from Bastrup, Louisiana met a girl from the northern part of Korea and then created me. And she's always been very, very secretive about what her past has been. And so I remember when I was nine years old, my mother was playing this song and she was crying. It was the first and frankly, only time I've ever seen my mother cry. What had happened is her father had died in Korea. And up until that point, I didn't even realize my mother had a father. And so she would always play Elton John. And this song reminds me of that.

Kimberley Motley11:52

I guess that's why they call it the view.

Kimberley Motley11:56

Time on my hands, could be time spent with you.

Kimberley Motley12:02

Love them like children.

Kimberley Motley12:05

Living like lovers, rolling like soldiers.

Kimberley Motley12:11

Under the collar

Kimberley Motley12:16

Guess that's my car

Presenter12:21

I guess that's why they call it the blues, Elton John. Reminding you of your mum, Kimberly Motley. So you were born in 1975 in Milwaukee, and you've written of your hometown. I know Milwaukee better than I know myself, although that doesn't mean I have to like it. How would you describe the neighborhood you grew up in? Well, where I grew up in, it was a very black neighborhood. It was in the projects, low income. Everyone was on welfare. Milwaukee is a very... hard city. It's very similar to Kabul to me, frankly. So Milwaukee has a lot of problems, but even though it was a poor neighborhood in the project, it was also magical in a lot of ways. You know, I don't, there's a real benefit in some ways to growing up.

Speaker 113:01

You know

Presenter13:07

poor. I hate even saying that word. For me, you get a greater imagination, which I think was great. Relationships really mean a lot in neighborhoods like that. You know, my father, I I do remember he was like the only father in that neighborhood, and he was just crazy.

Presenter13:27

He was just crazy, but in a good way. He'd been in the military. Yes, he was in the Air Force, which was good for him. But he would do this thing where, you know, in the projects, everyone's grass is, you know, it's all communal. But he would just literally like come barreling out the house and just go off on people for walking on our communal grass. And it was so embarrassing. But on the other hand, he was saying something. He's like, just because you're poor doesn't mean you have to act like you're poor. You know, we're proud of this. This is our grass. Yeah. You mentioned your mother, Kim, is a North Korean. She was brought to South Korea as a child. Much later, she met your dad, Gridel. As parents, what was important to them? Education. Every extra dollar that they had went towards our education. We went to private schools. We had tutors coming to our house all the time. I mean, we had school all year round, you know, 24-7. And then when we weren't going somewhere for school, they would make us read encyclopedias at home and not just read them, but then we'd have to write book reports on them. It was just crazy. It was just completely insane. But I'm glad they did that. Didn't your mom have a speed reader machine, a very early version of a speed reader? I don't know where she got that thing from. I mean, honestly, she came home one day. She was so proud of herself because she had this speed reading machine and like all these spools of paper that had all these words on it, but they were books. And so she would make us read these from the speed reader machine. And she would up the time. It was all about education.

Presenter15:00

Let's go back to the music. This is your third disc today, Kim. Why have you chosen it? Well, the reason why I chose this disc, I'm Bad by LL Cool J, is this became my theme song when I was a little kid. And my father hated that I liked rap. So I would have to sneak and listen to this. And I remember one of my most treasured items that I owned was I had this Wonder Woman costume. Every Halloween from the ages of nine to 11, I was Wonder Woman. And then when I was 11, I really, really wanted to go trick-or-treating. And so I remember begging my brother, like, come on, you know, please come with me to trick-or-treat. And you know, when you're a kid and you know, this is the last time you're going to do a thing. And I knew that that was the last time that I was going to be Wonder Woman. So my brother put on his Dark Vader mask. My baby brother Jason, he put on his Superman costume. And before I put on my costume, I heard this song and I thought, that's the money. And I went trick-or-treating to LL Cool J. I'm Bad.

Kimberley Motley16:08

Because I'm bad as could be, got my voice on whack. Some brothers think he's making records, not ain't much to relax.

Kimberley Motley16:14

And it'll stay that way. The best rapper you've heard is El Elku J. Kamikaze. Take a look at what I

Kimberley Motley16:24

Once.

Kimberley Motley16:26

Never standing on line. You wanna try me? First you

Kimberley Motley16:31

Cynical, that means I reign supreme, and I'm notorious. I'll crush you like a jelly bean. I'm

Presenter16:37

I'm Bad by LL Cool J. Kimberly Motley, tell me a bit more then about school. You've described your childhood as very multicultural, but you also said, you know, you're the only black kid at your school, or you were the black kid perceived as the black kid. What was it like, Catholic private school that your parents sent you to? Well, you know, honestly, the school was great. And it was interesting because it was in sort of the middle of the city. There were only 10 of us in each class and a very connected community, very middle class, except for us, which was fine. Great teachers. You know, it was a really great experience. And I feel like as a kid, I was able to move in sort of different types of people. And did that feel comfortable for you right from the off? It did. You know, in my household, it was my Korean mother, my black father. My mother was the only Korean woman in the community. And when she came to the U.S., she didn't speak English very well. So we sort of learned together, you know, me as a baby. And she wasn't comfortable with her English. So when she would have meetings, because we were on welfare, I would be the one talking for her. So you were advocating for her from a young age. Yes.

Speaker 117:31

Mm.

Speaker 117:46

So you are

Presenter17:50

Yes, I didn't think about like that, but pretty much, yes.

Presenter17:53

Money was pretty tight then, as you say, you were on welfare. So what was the impact of that on you? Were you expected to contribute to the family finances?

Presenter18:02

Yes, I mean I had a job when I was 10 years old. I had a paper route, which was a terrible job to have, frankly, in the projects because it relies on people paying for the paper. And so I had that job. And then I remember I worked at Haagen-Das. My father was a photographer and also a janitor. And so we would go and help him with cleaning and things like that. I sort of was brought up always not just making money, but making money to pay bills, which is a different type of thing when you're a kid. Yeah. I know that you had a realization quite early on in your legal career that when you had become a public lawyer, that actually for a lot of your colleagues, that was their first experience of meeting people who were poof. But for you, it wasn't. It was a reality you were familiar with, and that made you different. I think so. I mean, I think I came in with a wealth of life experience that the other attorneys didn't have. Like, I understood how drugs are sold on the street. I understood, for instance, what a pound of weed looks like. I understood what I saw police do and not do legally. I also saw a lot of crime as a kid, unfortunately. So I came in with that experience, which I think was really, really valuable in terms of not just representing clients, but really being able to relate to clients. For instance, I knew other attorneys when a client would come to them and say, well, he didn't read me my rights. You know, the attorney would be very skeptical of that. But then I had grown up around where that never happened. So I wasn't skeptical about that.

Presenter19:31

There was also in the background to your family life, in your teens, your father lost a legal case that he'd been fighting since you were around two, I think. He'd been fired after becoming disabled in a car accident. Yet he lost his case. I mean, there must have been a huge awareness of the injustice of that in your family. Definitely. It was a case that went on for years and years. My father was in a horrible car accident and was working for General Electric at the time. And, you know, we had a dog. We were sort of middle class before that happened. We were doing pretty good. And then once he had the car accident, everything changed. We had to give up our dog. We didn't have a car anymore. We would rent cars here and there. It just changed everything. And my father was so hopeful that he would win this case. And this case went on for at least seven or eight years. He would go and talk to his lawyers about the wrongful termination that they had terminated him based on his disability. And at the end of it, he lost. He lost. And it was a big blow to him. And to you, do you remember the impact of it?

Presenter20:36

Well, I just remember being very sad, you know, because it just seemed like, okay, if he wins this case, you know, everything will change back to the way that it was. We'll get our dog back. And it it just didn't happen. And it just made me, you know, angry, to be honest. Angry

Speaker 120:46

No.

Presenter20:52

On one hand, but also on the other hand, I kind of felt like, well, of course, because that's just how the system is. Poor people don't win.

Presenter21:02

And do you think that had an impact on you choosing law as a career? I mean, you once said law picked me.

Presenter21:08

You know, it's just I tri I ran from it for a very long time. Honestly, when I graduated high school and went to college, honestly, I wanted to be a DJ. My parents wanted me to be a lawyer, but I just was like, No, I want to be a DJ. And I think part of that is because, again, my father was so against rap and I was just like, No, I like rap.

Presenter21:28

And also part of it was that I just didn't see the legal system work for people. I didn't see anyone win. What was the turning point?

Presenter21:39

You know, there wasn't like this thing happening. You know, my, when I was in high school, my parents didn't let me watch TV, of course. And so one of my teachers said he wanted us to watch Law and Order, like as an assignment. And so I remember I loved that show. And I just, for like the next three years, I was like, my teacher said I have to watch it, but, you know, it was just for that one class.

Presenter22:02

And so I guess maybe that might have been it, but I just didn't realize it.

Presenter22:06

It's time for your next piece of music. What's it gonna be?

Presenter22:09

Suddenly I See by Katie Tunstow. I actually had the honor of meeting her a few months ago and she's just an amazing person. I love this song and I chose this song because I feel like this is one of those coming into your own type of songs and that's how I felt like once I decided that I needed to go into law.

Presenter22:33

Walk in the world, life, walk in the world.

Presenter22:36

But you can hear she's a beautiful girl, she's a beautiful girl

Presenter22:41

She fills up every corner like she's born in black and white.

Presenter22:46

Makes you feel warmer when you're trying to remember what you are

Speaker 222:53

About to leave you hanging on the word

Speaker 222:57

Suddenly I see I see This is what I wanna be Suddenly I see I see

Speaker 223:06

Why the enemy so much?

Presenter23:08

Suddenly I see Katie Tunstall. Kimberly Motley, by 2008 then you were 33, you had a BA and a master's in criminal justice and a doctorate in law. You'd married your husband Claude and had three kids and that year you moved your family from Milwaukee to North Carolina. It was shortly after that that you went to Afghanistan. It was as part of a State Department scheme to train Afghan lawyers. What was the appeal of that role for you? It was completely a financial decision. Prior to going there, I was working as a public defender. So me going there would make more than triple my salary. It was just a one-year program. I didn't have a passport, so it was the first time I left the U.S. And really that was our plan. Just go there for a year, make the money, and then come back. How much then did you know about what you were in for? I mean, what were you expecting? I was expecting what you see on the news. You know, I was expecting that it would be bombs everywhere, that it was a dangerous and scary place. I didn't know anything about Afghanistan. And at that point in time, I would have struggled to have, frankly, found it on a map. And it was frankly ridiculous that I was hired for that job. It's crazy. And what was the advice that you were given about what you were set to do and how you should conduct yourself?

Presenter24:20

Well, you know, they sent us to this training in Virginia, and I'm one of three women in the training. So there's 15 to 16 other men there in the training. And they're sort of telling us as women that we need to cover ourselves. We can't dance. We can't look men in the eyes. We can't shake their hands. They're telling us all these things that we're not supposed to do as women. American white men telling us how to conduct ourselves in Afghanistan. It was ridiculous. Because this is radio, I'm just going to have to convey the look on your face, which is.

Presenter24:56

Like absolute disgust.

Presenter24:58

Yeah, it was ridiculous. They had no Afghans training us about how Afghanistan culture is. So what happened when you got there? Well, when I got there, I was terrified. You know, you really literally think that when you get off the plane that a suicide bomber is going to try to run up to you and give you a hug. I remember being on the bus from the plane to the terminal and me and this Afghan woman sort of locked eyes and she kind of shook her head at me like, here we go. And then she started putting on her headscarf. And it was just sort of this understanding that we're about to enter into this world and be second class citizens. But it was nowhere near as scary as they tried to make it seem like it was in that training. And how much of the protocol that you'd been talked through did you adopt?

Presenter25:50

If that's not a ridiculous question.

Presenter25:52

Yeah. I did I did none of it. I did none of it. And why? What was your thinking?

Presenter25:58

It just wasn't, it just didn't feel right. You know, it just wasn't who I am. And I wasn't doing it to be disrespectful. But frankly, I found that from my experience, the Afghans just wanted us to be who we were. They didn't have the same expectations on how we should behave as the Americans told us we should have when we were in Afghanistan. You don't wear a headscarf in court? I don't wear a headscarf at all, period. And I don't do it to be disrespectful, but it's just not something that I've ever done.

Presenter26:29

In Afghanistan. Have you ever received criticism because of that? And if so, who's it from?

Presenter26:35

The funny thing is, the criticism that I have received it from, which is very few and far between, is usually from non-Muslim foreigners that work in Afghanistan. You know, they say, oh, you should respect the culture and wear the headscarve. And, you know, I'm just like, really? You think that's respectful of the culture in a culture where, frankly, about 85% of the women are victims of some form of domestic violence? You best believe about 99% of those women are wearing headscarves. Don't tell me wearing a headscarf makes people any more respectful for women. I disagree with that. You know, there's certain things that obviously I do in Afghanistan to be respectful. I'll never wear shorts in Afghanistan. But ultimately, I think you just have to be who you are and people respect that.

Presenter27:23

You were sent there to work with Afghan lawyers. How did they react to you and what was it like for you working with them?

Presenter27:30

You know

Presenter27:31

It's been amazing, frankly, working with lawyers in Afghanistan and working with judges. It's for me, there's been so many people that have been very, very helpful. What I do, it's a team sport. There's a lot of Afghans that are my colleagues, like my translators and my drivers, who have worked with me. There's been a lot of people that I've met who've been willing to teach me about Afghan law, teach me about Islamic law, which has been really, really helpful. And I've always been welcome. I've never been told in Afghanistan that I shouldn't be there. And so I have found it to be a very interesting and open-minded place to practice. They could have kicked me out a long time ago, and they haven't. It's time for some more music. This is your fifth disc today. Why have you chosen it? Well, I chose this song because when I first went to Afghanistan, there were parties. And frankly, hands down, the best parties I've went to were in Afghanistan. Hands down. Oh my God. They were insane. They were so good because I really feel like I met the world in Afghanistan, you know, because you have people from all over the world that come to these parties, you know, from the UK, from Australia, from the US. And so we'd have these parties. And I remember my friend, Nick Lee, and he played this tune, Dance With Me by Dizzy Rasco.

Speaker 228:27

Here.

Speaker 128:27

Yeah.

Presenter28:49

And I was like, who is this? And so, and it's just one of those songs where like everyone just pops and dances. And it was just, it's just such a beautiful thing to see all these people from different parts of the world just all coming together and, you know, dancing to Dizzy Rascal.

Kimberley Motley29:05

What's up dual? I've been keeping my eye on your movements. I can't see no room for improvement. But when you all over there on your Jack Jones, you need to let me get behind your backbone. Cause I'm the man for the job, let me work it. I won't waste no time, I'll make it worth it. 100%, I make it worth it. You got a body to die for, let me merge it. Now it's murder and the dance law. I wanna take this firm in the dance floor. I ain't fool's fool, but

Speaker 229:28

I'm still hardcore, you're gonna give me everything I ask for. It's not a long team, you're the boom team. Maybe more than a hotel room team. I'll never know if I just walk past. I really wanna dance, so I guess I'll just pass.

Presenter29:41

Dance with me, Dizzy Rascal and Calvin Harris. Kimberly Motley, after your contract with the US State Department ended, you decided to set up your own legal practice in Kubble. Now you said you were only supposed to be there for a year. Why did you stay?

Presenter29:54

Well, I stayed because I was really interested in maybe, you know, seeing if I could take cases in Afghanistan. I didn't plan for it to be a practice, but basically, when I was there for the first year, I went to different prisons around the country and I met a lot of people that were locked up. And I remember going to Polochaki Prison, which is the largest prison in Afghanistan. And I met some British and South African soldiers or sort of on this tour. And as I was there to learn about the legal system, I remember going to this last block and I saw these two guys and they were speaking English behind the bars. And so they were just trying to get my attention and kind of being really super friendly, super chatty. But everyone was very, very uncomfortable. And so as we try to slowly walk away from these two guys, Bevin Campbell and Anthony Malone, they were trying to shove these pieces of paper to me. And I was like, no, no, no, I can't take them. That's not part of my job. And I remember Bevin sort of looking at me and saying, you know, please help us. No one is helping us. So I decided to take the papers and just reading their stories that night about how they have been in prison for several years and tortured and abused, I couldn't walk away from that. And so I went to the U.S. Embassy and I said, hey, you know, as part of our training program, why don't we actually use real cases so that we can train the lawyers on how you deal with real life cases. And I was immediately shut down, was told, like, no, that's not why we're here. We're not doing that. And so I didn't really believe in the program anymore. And also, I knew that there were people that needed help. And so I decided to quit the job. And that's when I started representing people. And in the beginning, I was only representing foreigners that were being criminally charged in Afghanistan for free because I didn't want to take people's money and then mess them up, you know, and I wasn't sure how this would work. And at that point, you know, you mentioned earlier that you don't see lawyers being creative using the laws, working the system from the inside out. Did you know that that was what you were going to do, that you were going to use the legal frameworks and the Sharia law frameworks that were already in existence and the informal judicial system in Afghan culture to get these guys out? Yes, to a certain extent. But at that point in time, I wasn't comfortable with using Sharia law because I wasn't sure how it would be perceived being a foreigner, you know, quoting from the Holy Quran. So in the beginning, I only was going to use Afghan formal laws that were written. And then I just started representing people and I saw that wasn't the most effective way to do things. And then I started sort of meeting with mullahs and different people to understand and learn about Sharia law. And then I started using that. And people were very open to teaching me, you know, because it just had not been done and it was weird, I think. And also, because I was the first foreign lawyer to like even observe court or to go to the prisons freely, I had free access to the prisons in Afghanistan. And I would just rock a bed of prison and they would let me come in and just talk to people. It was crazy. You mentioned coming to understand the culture that you're working in. Afghanistan's listed as one of the most corrupt on the Corruption Perception Index. How do you manage that aspect of living and working there? Well, the best way to fight corruption is to not be corrupt.

Presenter33:28

And so for me, I've had a lot of judges and prosecutors that may come to me or come to my people, you know, asking for a bribe. And so the best way that I have found to fight against that is for me to be super transparent. So I'll say, I don't pay bribes. They're like, oh, no, no, no, I wasn't asking. I'm like, well, just in case you were, I want you to know that I don't. If I have a judge that's asking for money, I have been known to write a letter. and say, on this date, you asked me for this amount of money. I do not pay bribes. It is illegal. And I'll file it in the file. And I remember the last time that I was asked by, that a judge sort of was trying to ask if I would pay them money. They go to my translator and they said, do Americans pay bribes? And my translator goes, not this one.

Presenter34:19

Let's get to your next piece of music, Kimberly Motley. What's it going to be and why have you chosen it? Well, this song is such a beautiful song, and it's Ed Sheeran, I see fire. That was in the Hobbit soundtrack. And I chose this song because this is sort of one of those songs that I have used in sort of my private time. You know, this is a sad song, but it's a song where I'm able to sort of unwind different conversations I may have with clients. I don't know. It's just a very emotional song.

Speaker 234:53

And if we should die

Kimberley Motley34:57

We should all die together, raise a glass

Speaker 235:02

Yeah.

Speaker 235:04

Uh

Kimberley Motley35:04

For the last

Speaker 235:05

Last time, cooling out father

Speaker 235:10

Prepare as we will watch the flames burn or burn on.

Speaker 235:17

Something inside

Speaker 235:19

Desolation

Kimberley Motley35:25

No.

Presenter35:26

I s

Kimberley Motley35:26

See fire

Presenter35:28

Ed Sheeran and I see fire. Kimberly Motley, you've spent over a decade in Afghanistan now and in that time your house has been broken into and it was ransacked. A live grenade was actually thrown into your home. I mean it's an incredibly dangerous place to live regardless of your occupation. An average of 74 people were killed every day in the country in August according to data collected by the BBC recently.

Presenter35:52

How much do you worry about your personal security? Unfortunately, there has been more issues with security in Afghanistan, and more people are suffering as a result, more than I am. But frankly, it's just part of the job. Do you worry about becoming numb to the dangers?

Presenter36:11

Yeah, I do. I think you kind of have to. You know, at least for me, I kind of have to be numb to it because I can't be terrified all the time about what may or may not happen. And you see, everyone else also sort of does that. You know, if you live in a war zone, you have to live. So you have to understand how to work through it. Your husband, Claude, is at home with your three children when you're working in Afghanistan and elsewhere. How much of what you're facing when you're away do you choose to share with them?

Presenter36:44

Well, I mean, I'll talk to them about cases here and there. I try to be very selective with what I tell, especially my children, because they don't really need to know everything. They need to be happy kids. They are interested. As they get older, they're more interested, but they do worry. But I feel like, to be honest, my upbringing in Milwaukee was very helpful. And I feel like, you know, I grew up in a bad neighborhood in Milwaukee and that Afghanistan for me is just another bad neighborhood. And you just have to watch your back, be smart, and keep your head on a swivel.

Speaker 136:52

Yeah.

Presenter37:17

It was interesting for me to watch footage of you spending time in Afghanistan and then kind of going home to spend time in the States. How much of a process of decompression and recompression do you go through when you're going from one place to the other? I have learned that I need kind of a day to get back into a Western world because it's hard because I'm like super aggressive in Afghanistan. And then when I come home, I don't want to be like that. But I don't know. To be honest, people always try to talk to me about this and I always avoid these questions. Why though? Well, I mean, I just feel like this is just who I am. I don't know. I guess it makes a person vulnerable to talk about this. And I kind of know what I need to do for myself in my own brain.

Speaker 137:57

Mm-hmm.

Presenter38:02

I don't know if it's something I really want to share. It's not necessarily about recommending it. It's just living it, doing it. Yeah. I mean, my job, it's always entering one boxing ring or another. And frankly, when you get into a boxing ring, you're going to get hit. And if you don't want to get hit, don't be a boxer. And that's sort of how I feel about my job. The fear, the threats, the bombs, the whatevers, it's just part of the job.

Presenter38:30

It's clear from all that you've said today that you feel the Afghan legal system does need to change. Is that happening? And if so, where?

Presenter38:39

Well, you know, the thing about it is when I first went to Afghanistan in 2008, I believe there were less than 100 attorneys that were licensed. And I had to convince attorneys to go to court to represent their clients. Whereas now, a little bit over 10 years later, there's over, I believe, 2,000 attorneys. And you see more attorneys going to court to represent their clients, which is great. I just had a training last year where I was training a lot of women lawyers on DNA evidence, which is amazing, on DNA evidence in Afghanistan. 10 years ago, I was training them on what the Constitution said. You know, so I do see a lot of really positive progress. I do see the lawyers using the laws more to the benefit, especially of women. But, you know, I don't want to make it seem like, oh, it's all better now because it's not. It was abysmal back then. Now it's still not great, but it's not as bad as it was. Let's see some more music. This is your seventh disc today. You know, a lot of these songs are dance songs. And if I'm on a desert island by myself, I want to dance. I don't want to just be sort of feeling sorry for myself. So this song, Pump It by Black Eye Peace, reminds me of my kids. You know, anytime I would take them to football games or baseball games, I would play a song that would get them in the mood, to get them pumped up, to get out there and fight. And it's also a very effective song when your kids are in the car and they're arguing.

Presenter40:15

Oh, this is good practical tips. It's super effective because I have found when they're sitting there arguing, getting on your nerves, just play this song and then jack it up and they stop. There's going to be some people in that situation right now, Kim Lu. They can just turn it up. Exactly.

Speaker 140:16

Exactly.

Kimberley Motley40:30

Do wanna hate on us? Do need to ease on love. Do wanna act on gut, but do get shut like.

Presenter40:36

The player is stuck. Chick say she ain't gambling but chick back stay when we in town. She like men on drum. She wanna hit and run. Yeah, that's the scheme, that's what we do, that's who we be. B-L-A-C-K-E-Y-A-D-G to the E, then the A to the S. When we play, you shake it. Shake it, shake it, shake it, girl. Make sure you don't break it, girl. Turn it up, turn it up. Time it up. Turn it up.

Presenter41:00

Come on baby, just pump it

Presenter41:04

Pumpets by the Black Eyed Peas. Kimberly Motley, you've had the support of your family. Your husband, Claude, supported your decision and he was looking after things at home while you were working over there. But has your work in Afghanistan taken a toll on you personally?

Presenter41:20

I mean, definitely. It's definitely changed our relationship. It's changed me as a person in a lot of ways. Wow.

Presenter41:29

It just sort of has made me trust people more, but also not trust people more, if that makes sense. I mean, that completely makes sense because you're seeing the best and worst of people all the time as part of what you do. Right, exactly. I mean, I've seen some beautiful things where people have stepped up to the plate. You know, like I had a client who needed clothes, and I had people taking the shirts off their backs to literally give my client clothes. And then I've seen people do some really, really ugly and terrible, terrible things that I just don't understand how they could do that to another human being, especially when it comes to children and women. And it just makes me so mad, some of the things that I've seen.

Presenter42:14

You've expanded your remit to international cases beyond Afghanistan. These days you also work in Ghana, Uganda, the UAE. What is it that drives you?

Presenter42:24

You know, part of my practice is being immersed in cultures, you know, going to a place and immersing myself in cultures, immersing myself into my clients' lives, immersing myself into the legal system. And so I've really enjoyed that a lot. And I feel to a certain extent that I have a responsibility to help people, not just to help people, but to protect them with the law and to empower them with the law. And, you know, I feel like that's my superpower. My superpower is to fly there, land, and give you the law, but not just give it to you, but empower you in a way that you start understanding and can argue for yourself. And it's such a wonderful compliment that people trust me enough to come to me and say, can you help me with this? And I have a responsibility to do that.

Presenter43:16

And what about your own future? How do you see that? You know, I look a year.

Presenter43:21

I just see I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing right now. Have you ever thought about politics?

Presenter43:27

God. I mean, you must get asked this all the time. I know, but I just. Ugh.

Presenter43:33

Politicians, man, they're so disappointing these days. I j I have to.

Speaker 243:37

I hate the one who isn't.

Presenter43:39

Yeah.

Presenter43:39

Is there one?

Presenter43:41

I don't know. I just feel like I think what I do is political in a lot of ways. And I think this is where my superpower is. I mean, maybe, I don't know, 20 years from now, maybe I'll change my mind. But right now, you know, I feel like I'm more effective with what I'm doing. The politicians can make the laws, but I'm the one that goes and shows how the laws do work and don't work for the people. And then I can come back and show them this is what happened and this is what you need to change with this. It's time for your last disc, Kim. What's it going to be? My last disc is Kendrick Lamar DNA. I feel like this is my war song. You know, when I'm about to go to court, this is my jam.

Presenter44:23

Loyalty, got royalty inside my DNA. Court of peace, got war and peace inside my DNA. I got power, poison, pain, and joy inside my DNA. I got hustle, though, ambition flow inside my DNA. I was born like this, it's formed like this, immaculate conception. I transform like this, perform like this, with shouts you a new weapon. I don't contemplate, I meditate. Then off your, off your head. This that put the kids to bed. This that I got, I got, I got, I got realness. I just pushed, cause it's in my DNA. Kendrick Lamar and DNA. So Kimberly Motley, I am about to cast you away to our desert island. How do you feel about the prospect?

Presenter45:01

I feel pretty good. I'll have my imagination, so I'm fine.

Presenter45:05

You won't be completely on your own. We'll give you the books to take with you: the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. You can also have a book of your own. What would you like?

Presenter45:14

The book that I would choose is 1984 by George Orwell. It's a book that I always travel with, and I feel like it would stand the test of time, especially with me being bored on a desert island. And it's a book that I can read and reread over and over again. You can also have a luxury item. What would you like?

Presenter45:31

Well, I mean, of course, I would choose a solar powered boat, but I know that's not playing the game. Don't do that. Come on now. I know. I know that's not the same. Don't try and game this system. You've met your match. I know that's not playing the game, right? But

Speaker 145:35

Let's not play in the game.

Speaker 145:39

But

Presenter45:44

What I would choose is, I have this business card holder, and basically, there's a mirror inside. And on the cover of the holder, when my kids were two, seven, and twelve years old, I was taking a picture of them, my little girl, Cherish, and my two other kids, Diva and Seoul. And I take the picture, and they're all just smiling and laughing. It's so cute. And that's a picture that I put on the cover of this business card holder. And so I would take that, and then I could break off the business card holder and I could maybe file it down into a knife or something for protection. And then there's a mirror. So there's a lot of things I could do with it. Well, as long as you're going to use the knife for strictly impractical purposes, I think we can definitely allow that. And the picture of the kids is absolutely perfect. So it's yours. Finally, if you had to save just one of these eight tracks from the waves on your desert island, which would it be? I would have to save my kids. So I would have to say pump it.

Presenter46:50

Kimberly Motley, thank you very much for sharing your desert island discs with us. Thank you for having me.

Presenter47:05

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kimberley. Other lawyers who've been cast away include Baroness Helena Kennedy, Anthony Julius, Barbara Mills, and Michael Mansfield. And in 2015, Kirstie Young interviewed Brian Stevenson, a fellow American lawyer, founder of the not-for-profit Equal Justice Initiative, whose work focuses on death penalty cases, children sentenced as adults, prison and sentencing reform, and issues of race and poverty. Kirstie asked Brian what it was like to work on such challenging cases to represent people who had done terrible things.

Kimberley Motley47:40

Well, it's difficult work, there's no question about it, but it's also deeply engaging.

Kimberley Motley47:45

These are people who are condemned. These are people who have been judged to have no moral redeeming features beyond hope. And I've never met anybody about whom I could say this person is beyond hope. I've represented people who have done some really difficult and dangerous things, including some who may have to be institutionalized for a very long period of time. But I've never met anybody about whom I can say there is no hope for this person. And this idea that we are all more than the worst thing we've ever done is very resonant for me. I think if somebody tells a lie, they're not just a liar. I think if they take something that doesn't belong to them, they're not just a thief. And I think even if you kill someone, you're not just a killer. And I actually take great pride in standing and advocating for the humanity of people.

Speaker 248:31

It's vital though, surely, in a functioning democracy that people ultimately are held accountable for the very worst things they do.

Kimberley Motley48:37

They did. No question, and I'm not against punishment, but in America we have a system of justice that's really defined by error. For every nine people that we have executed in America, we've identified one innocent person on death row. And that rate of error, in my judgment, ought to cause us to stop the death penalty, not because we think it's morally unacceptable necessarily, but because you can't tolerate that kind of error. If for every nine planes that took off, one crashed, nobody would fly. And what's interesting is that the longer I've spent representing the condemned, the longer I've spent on death row, the more I've become persuaded that these are places where some remarkable things are happening. And that humanity, that compassion, that sometimes beauty that is given to me by my condemned clients has really radicalized my understanding of what it means to be in that space.

Speaker 249:30

That is an extraordinary thing to hear you say, because I I had planned that my next question really was to ask you about being surrounded by so much darkness. When is the light in your life? But it sounds to me as though

Kimberley Motley49:37

Wins the line.

Kimberley Motley49:38

If you're saying

Speaker 249:40

Uh

Kimberley Motley49:40

Yeah.

Speaker 249:40

Uh

Kimberley Motley49:40

It's right there in the least expected. Oh, absolutely. I've had clients spend most of the entire visit trying to encourage me, worried about my mental state as I'm dealing with some complex issue. And so there is a dynamic, even on death row, that affirms my very basic hopes and aspirations for what human beings can and should do.

Presenter50:03

Brian Stevenson, speaking to Kirstie in 2015, do listen to the whole of that programme. It is a great one. You can find that programme on BBC Sounds. Next time on Desert Island Discs, my guest will be the actor Stephen Graham. I hope you'll join us.

Speaker 150:41

Hi everybody, I'm Caitlin Jenner and I am a guest on Simon Monday's Don't Tell Me the Score podcast. We talked about everything, the Olympics, trans issues, and all the lessons that I have learned along the way. I really enjoyed recording the podcast and I hope you enjoy listening to it. You can hear it on BBC Sounds. Just search for Don't Tell Me the Score.