Sue Biggs

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. And, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:43

This week, my castaway is Sue Biggs, Director General of the Royal Horticultural Society. Her organisation is best known for its spectacular flower shows and garden festivals, including annual extravaganzas at Chelsea, Hampton Court, Chatsworth House, and Tatton Park. In fact, the RHS is the UK's largest and most venerable gardening charity, founded in 1809 for the promotion of horticulture and the exchange of ideas. 200 years on, their core mission remains the same, though its aims have expanded to include engaging future generations, using gardening to transform communities and promoting careers in the industry. Sue Biggs has been its Director General for almost 10 years. Under her green-fingered leadership, the RHS has grown impressively from 350,000 to 510,000 members. A keen gardener, ever since she received a packet of seeds in a trowel for her seventh birthday, she spent 25 years working in the travel industry before deciding to change lanes and apply for her current role. She says horticulture is a great leveller. We meet royalty, celebrities and millionaires, and they'll all listen to the most junior person if they know how to sort out their gardening problem. There is a natural respect for people who know how to garden. Sue Biggs, welcome to Desert Island Discs. Thank you very much. So I used the phrase green-fingered already. What does it mean in practice? What qualities do good gardeners need to have?

Sue Biggs2:10

I think just a love of being outdoors and actually a love of plants because it's just so beautiful to be outside and actually see and look after plants and tender them and really make sure that you're adding something to the natural world.

Presenter2:28

As we talked today, the RHS Chelsea Flower Show has not long finished for another year. What's that week like for you?

Sue Biggs2:32

Early

Sue Biggs2:34

Complete and utter madness. It's amazing and exhausting in equal measure. I mean, it really is truly incredible that on this 11-acre site in the centre of London, our amazing shows team create the world's best flower show. And for that week, the Queen comes, the members of the royal family come, lots of celebrities come, lots of our lovely members and members of the public. And it's just amazing. All the brilliant British nurserymen that are there, all the garden designers, the landscapers. I find it a very moving week actually because so many people are so passionate about promoting horticulture and what an amazing industry, hobby, whatever you want it to be for you. So it's a great week.

Presenter3:17

And one of your jobs is accompanying the Queen around the Chelsea Flower Show. Is she knowledgeable about plants?

Sue Biggs3:22

She definitely knows what she likes, yes. I think her first love will always be horses, but I think her second love probably will be plants because she has such a joy of creating, I think, beautiful gardens in all of the places that she lives. They've all got beautiful gardens with the head gardeners there. So, yes, she's definitely interested in it. Well, let's get stuck into the music then. This is your first disc. Why have you chosen this one? It is my favourite film ever. And that favourite film ever is Gladiator. I have to even admit now.

Sue Biggs3:53

On air, that despite the fact that the RHS doesn't allow gnomes into Chelsea, I do have a gnome in my garden, and it is a gnome of Russell Crowe.

Sue Biggs4:03

So I think it's only fair that if I'm going to be cast away on a desert island, that I should have music that reminds me not only of Russellcrow, which wouldn't do me any harm, but of my lovely Russellcrow gnome in my garden.

Speaker 14:25

He's all

Speaker 14:31

Yeah.

Presenter4:50

Now we are free, Hans Zimmer and Lisa Gerard from the soundtrack to the film Gladiator. Now, Sue Biggs, before we move on, I have to follow up on the Russell Cronome. What is he doing? What does he look like? A few more details.

Sue Biggs5:04

He is there in full Maximus dress. So for anybody who knows, that's the Roman Centurion that he played in Gladiator, and there he is standing in my garden in full Roman Centurion dress.

Presenter5:16

Splendid. Now the technical stuff, including all that Latin, can be a little bit of a barrier for people to feeling confident about kind of taking their first steps and getting involved in gardening in the first place. What would you say to encourage the nervous would be gardener listening to this?

Sue Biggs5:33

Well, I don't know most of the Latin names, so if I can be the boss at the Royal Horticultural Society and not know the Latin names, I'm sure everyone listening to this is fine with that too. And I think, you know, the lovely thing about gardeners is whether they're expert or not, everybody loves sharing their advice. So if you're not sure about something about the name, ask. If you really don't want to ask, then have a look on websites. I mean, we've... got something called My Garden on the RHS website and that will give you all the common names. So through Plant Finder and My Garden on there, if you're really not sure, just quietly put it in and then you can wow everyone with your amazing Latin knowledge. You know, the worst thing you can do in gardening is kill a plant and I've killed hundreds in my life. So feel free. You help the nursery trade by killing plants. If it doesn't work, that's the worst that will happen. And then you'll try something that suits the soil or the direction that you're facing. And there are just so many beautiful plants to choose from. It's great fun trying it.

Presenter6:32

Now recent studies have suggested that we should all make sure that we have a nature dose of at least two hours a week. What proof is there that this truly has a beneficial effect on us, Sue?

Sue Biggs6:43

A lot of scientific research has been done. I mean, some of our own. We have over 60 scientists in the RHS. And they're doing a lot of research into climate change and pests and disease and things like that, but also increasingly on the social science side. And that research, both by us and other different universities and different scientific bodies, that research is all showing that you have to.

Sue Biggs7:06

Have a dose of nature. And if we care about the natural world as a human being, we have to be in it. And sitting indoors on a screen, a tablet, or anything else is not connecting with nature. So I know two hours is what's come out of the scientists, but I would really encourage everyone to get outside every day. Even if it's only you manage five minutes, take your socks and shoes off, go and walk on the grass and just reconnect with nature because it doesn't half make you feel better in your garden, in a park, wherever you are.

Presenter7:37

It's time to go to the music. Tell me about your second disc. Why have you chosen it?

Sue Biggs7:40

Going back in time, I think this was the second ever film I saw and I think I was nine when I saw it and the film was Born Free and it had such a huge impact on me. I just loved the big wide open spaces, the natural world, the lions, the animals and I think you know what came out of that of Born Free the Charity, I think Virginia McKenna.

Sue Biggs8:08

And Will Travers are amazing people and I really think I should thank Virginia McKenna for my two careers because I genuinely think that film inspired me to go first into the travel industry to see all these amazing places on the planet and I think the love of nature and conservation came from that too that eventually I found my place for that at the RHS so it's an important piece of music for me.

Presenter9:04

Part of the film soundtrack to Born Free composed by John Barry.

Presenter9:09

So Sue Biggs, what's your earliest gardening memory?

Presenter9:13

Yeah.

Sue Biggs9:13

My earliest gardening memory makes me sound really quite churlish in a way. It was my seventh birthday morning. I got up all excited of what I was going to have for my present and mum gave me this package and I opened it and it was a packet of seeds which I tipped out onto my hand and thought this is a bit of a dull present with sort of a handful of grey browny dusty stuff. I said, oh no, I've got your trowel as well. I wasn't ever so impressed with that either. But anyway, she gave me a square yard of our garden in Sheffield and we went out and I was really quite upset about my present. She said, no, no, trust me, it's Kim, my older sister's birthday was in six weeks' time. And she said, I promise you, by the time it's her birthday, these will be amazing. They'll be like little jewels. So I cheered up then, planted them with her. And she was absolutely right. By the time of Kim's birthday, they were then flowering and they were still flowering by the time of my other sister's birthday, Belinda, in July. So it was a magical present. And I've never lost the love of gardening ever since then. What was it? They were little scented stalks.

Presenter10:20

They're just so pretty. So tell me a bit more about your mum, Jane. Obviously, a keen gardener. She was also a mum to six children, all born within nine years, I think. How would you describe her?

Sue Biggs10:28

Thanks. How would you describe her? Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. No, she was. I know I'm obviously biased as one of her daughters, but she was a truly amazing mum. She was a nurse for most of her life. So how she managed to work and have six of us and bring us all up pretty much on her own, because either my dad was possibly more in the pub or gone altogether. So she was amazing bringing us all up. And she was very popular with her friends, with all of our friends. And I always think when your mum is popular with all of your friends too, then she's quite special. It's time for some more music. Tell us about your third. It's possibly the most.

Sue Biggs11:05

Beautiful piece of music reflecting nature that I've ever heard. And the lark ascending, for me, encapsulates everything. It reminds me so much of mum. So I love it because it reminds me of mum so much. But it also reminds me so much of the days we had as going to Chatsworth out to Derbyshire. It's just magical. But it also is tinged slightly with sadness for me because the birdsong in it and the lark song really talks about how beautiful it is, the bird song in this country, and how much it's part of what makes us British. And yet, all of the birds are under threat. And so there is a tinge of sadness that this would be terrible if nature ends up being so devastated that there is no lark song anymore and all we have to listen to is lark ascending. And whilst Nicola Benedetti is quite amazing on this, I hope we all do what we can to improve the environment and make sure we've always got birdsong into the future.

Speaker 412:38

Uh

Sue Biggs12:42

Uh

Presenter13:03

The Lark Ascending by Vaughan Williams, performed by Niccola Benedetti, with the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Andrew Lytton.

Presenter13:11

Your home life was quite outdoorsy. How did you get on when you were in the confines of your classroom?

Presenter13:17

I love

Sue Biggs13:17

School actually. I was Abbeydale girls' grammar and Dr. Florence Green was the headmistress. I loved it. Played lots of tennis and netball. And the only thing I didn't really like about it was when I was leaving, I wanted to do estate management at Reading University. And Dr. Green called me into her office and told me, in no uncertain terms, that that wasn't a career for young girls, and that I should instead do English. So I was persuaded. My parents were called in, and they also thought that I should do English, not estate management. But I wish she was still alive, because I would love to go back into England and go, see, I got into the natural world in the end.

Presenter13:54

And what was the thinking there, you know, for listeners who are thinking, well, but why not? Why not?

Sue Biggs13:58

Not for young people. Forty-five years ago. And I think at that stage, you know, women didn't really go into that very much. You know, we weren't meant to be doing those sort of things. So So you weren't supposed to be outdoors with your welly boots on and no, I think that was meant to be for m for men. But I think'cause I've had three wonderful brothers who've all been teasing and joshing and all those sort of things, you know, I'd never really view men's things and women's things. We grew up three girls, three boys, and that's that we're all people and so it's never really bothered me that

Sue Biggs14:29

I should do something that women should do. I think you just do what you follow your heart and what you love.

Presenter14:33

Yeah.

Presenter14:34

You've had two very successful but completely different careers. How does the path that you took match up with your thoughts about what the future might hold for you when you were a teenager?

Sue Biggs14:43

I knew fairly soon at university that I wanted to be in the outdoor travel world, but I did make a terrible mistake because my first attempt was to be an air stewardess, as they recall that, they're British Airways. And when I look at that photograph of me, age 18, I look like some awful sort of hyacinth bouquet version of what an air stewardess would look like. So I'm not surprised I didn't get the job. What is that? I'm going to have to ask you to talk me through the look. Oh, it was marvellous. I had my hair up in a bun. That was the first wonderful thing. A blue, red and white neckerchiefie scarf thing around my neck. A white shirt dress, because I was a lot slimmer in those days than I am now. So it's tightly cinched in at the waist. And blue shoes and a red cardigan. I looked like a walking union jack. It certainly sounds eye-catching. It was eye-catching in all the wrong way.

Sue Biggs15:36

Let's go to the music, this is your fourth.

Sue Biggs15:39

I was at Nottingham University, which has got one of the most beautiful campuses, I think, and I loved it, even though I had quite a wild time of uh union bars and uh

Sue Biggs15:49

Possibly drinking a little too much, possibly going to too many concerts and things. I still remember just lying under the cherry trees that used to always blossom there, great big pink cherry trees on my birthday, which is towards the end of April. And this record, Solid Air by John Martin, when I first the first concert I ever went to at Nottingham University was John Martin. And when he gave me his cigarette to hold to retune his guitar, I was smitten. So, yes, it brings back lots of memories of being in Nottingham University Union Bar.

Presenter16:31

Walking the line and you've been living on Sunday

Presenter16:39

Don't know what's going wrong inside

Presenter16:43

I can tell you that

Speaker 416:45

Oh no Leave me alone

Speaker 116:48

Uh

Speaker 416:48

Who stole it?

Presenter16:54

SOLIDAIRE by John Martin, taking you back to The Cherry Blossom in Nottingham. Sue Biggs. After university you did a tourism diploma and then you began what sounds like a dream career, creating holidays for Ku only travel. What exactly does that entail?

Sue Biggs17:11

It was all long haul travel, so I literally

Sue Biggs17:14

Joined them to set up a lot of the programmes. So it was a bit in at the deep end. Oh, it was going to terrible places to have to suffer in the Caribbean, in the Maldives, in the Far East, in Africa, in the Indian Ocean. I mean, just I was very, very lucky of over the time I was there, sort of growing up through the company of buying hotels, flights, cruises, tourist board meetings, airlines to create the products.

Presenter17:42

And how many destinations did you help put on the map? Because some of the places that you mentioned wouldn't perhaps have been obvious holiday destination choices back then.

Sue Biggs17:50

I think the two probably that I was most involved in putting on the map perhaps were the Maldives and Sri Lanka. I think Maldives probably first of all because I remember when I first went, you know, you arrived at Mali Airport and there were a few fishing boats to take you, you know, chugging on the Dhonis for three hours out to an island which was no horrible thing, beautiful turquoise water, flying fish, dolphins coming with you alongside the boat. And then you'd get to the island and there were a few thatched huts and there was no power, nothing. There was salty water only. All the food was tin food. So the first couple of years I used to contract hotels in the Maldives. Literally we used to have to tell our customers, you know, you're only going to have a bucket shower and it's salt water. So your hair's going to get terribly frizzy and you're going to eat baked beans and pineapple chunks for most of your holiday, but the beaches, the diving.

Sue Biggs18:44

Is just to die for.

Presenter18:46

That phase of your career, of course, was pre-Internet. How much has the digital revolution changed the way that we travel?

Sue Biggs18:52

I think it's changed the travel industry totally. I was very lucky. I was really in the main growth period. The 25 years I was at Kewone was really the big growth of travel overseas. But now I think it's changed totally with the internet, and people will rely a lot more on TripAdvisor or all the different programmes online that they will find other people's advice and book their own flights and book their own hotels. I think when everything works perfectly, it's perfectly okay. But sadly, things don't always go okay. And you know, my time at Kewone, you know, we had the horrors of 9/11 and the tsunami to deal with. And if you're not with a tour operator and you've just done it all yourself, I think that's tough to be on your own when something like that happens.

Presenter19:39

And so for you working at the company when those events took place, what was your role and what's the responsibility of the the company at that point?

Sue Biggs19:47

My role really was to lead the rescue of what was happening. I mean, we had to charter aircraft to get people back home, send out literally funeral directors because we lost some people in both of those. Talk to relatives who'd lost people or were terrified of where was their daughter who was on a honeymoon or where was their son who'd be, you know, they'd heard from him, but not from the daughter. The team were amazing. When the Boxing Day tsunami happened, I remember driving in at about four in the morning and there were already people there. Nobody had called anybody, but everybody knew they had to be there to help. And so it was amazing for that. But obviously, the worst of times too, to have people injured and dying is not what anybody expects to have happen on a holiday.

Presenter20:33

Time for your next track, Supigs. What's it gonna be?

Sue Biggs20:36

Well in the 80s it was a quite frightening time I thought. I remember there's the AIDS ads with the tombstones falling down and then I went to see this film Philadelphia. There was one track in it that really stirred my emotions and I play it regularly not to remember those sad days but to remember soon after that film a very good friend of mine died from AIDS and every time I play this now I still think of Robin. The track is La Mamma Morta from the film Philadelphia with Maria Callis.

Speaker 121:26

Yeah.

Sue Biggs21:33

The king of King and Savior.

Sue Biggs21:42

Oh, I'm here.

Sue Biggs21:45

Oh, you go. You're still so immediate. Yeah.

Sue Biggs21:52

Uh

Speaker 422:03

Uh

Presenter22:08

La Mamma Mota, composed by Umberto Giordano. It was sung by Maria Callas and accompanied by La Scala Orchestra conducted by Tullio Seraphin.

Presenter22:18

Sue Biggs, you are appointed to the board of the travel company Cooone, the youngest person ever, and also the first woman. How much do those sorts of firsts matter to you?

Sue Biggs22:30

I suppose they're quite nice really. It made me laugh in many ways because it's a Swiss company and it was quite a big thing for them that a woman was coming on and I remember going over for my first meeting there and they'd very nicely got me a present and a card. So I opened the card first and looked at it. I thought it was a bit strange and opened it inside and inside was the congratulations, at last we've got somebody to iron our shirts.

Sue Biggs22:59

Which I wish I'd kept. You know, I think people today might get offended by that, but I just thought it was very funny. And I think most things in life, if they're not quite right, if you laugh about them, it's really the best way to handle it. What would you tell a successful female professional to do if she received a card like that today? It just wouldn't be acceptable today. And I think you would just have to say, you know, just exactly that. It isn't acceptable. You can have it back again.

Presenter23:24

It's time for some more music. This is your sixth. Why have you chosen it, Sue?

Sue Biggs23:29

I had an amazing quarter of a century, God that makes me sound old, quarter of a century at Cooney Travel and had the most amazing times. But there did come a time when it was, I think it would be safe enough to say that the new boss in Switzerland, I didn't see eye to eye, so it was time for me to say goodbye. And I was very sad to leave after that length of time. But my team there were amazing and I had a leaving party and at the end of it they put this on and it reduced me to absolute, absolute tears and my poor then husband had to take me home as a weeping jelly but it was so moving and so lovely and I'm so grateful and appreciative for being 25 years with amazing people and an amazing company.

Speaker 124:21

Time to say goodbye.

Speaker 124:29

Poissy

Speaker 124:33

Henon amaze, henon de Christant of Ponfair.

Speaker 124:41

Are they so civil with them?

Presenter24:53

Time to Say Goodbye, composed by Francesco Sartori and Lucio Quarantotto. It was performed by Sarah Brightman and Andrea Bocelli, with the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Mike Reed.

Presenter25:06

Sue Biggs, after leaving the job that you'd loved so much, you went through cancer treatment twice. What helped you through that very difficult time?

Sue Biggs25:14

I am very lucky, not only my lovely brothers and sisters, but I've got amazing friends who were so supportive because it was not only two lots of cancer, but at the same time, unfortunately, my mum died. And then my husband decided after 30 years that he'd rather be somewhere else. So it was my 50s were my not happy decade. It was a tough time. And really, those friends... and family really got me through all of that but so too did my garden and I remember thinking at one point towards the end of all the the horribleness that happened I remember thinking oh I'm not sure whether this is all worth it and then I thought what I've just got this garden I've just moved in I've got to make this garden beautiful and it was actually wanting to do the garden and wanting to see the bulbs come up and the trees flower because I didn't quite know what colour this one was or that one so I think they're tremendously healing gardens and I wouldn't be without them and add to that my lovely dog Maddie and you know I'm I'm well made even however tough times are

Presenter26:20

Yeah. Uh

Sue Biggs26:21

Uh

Presenter26:21

Do you think there's a sense of tapping into something about the promise of the future, even when times are difficult, in gardening? You know, it's that idea, isn't it, of planting seeds in the hope that things will change, things are going to be different.

Sue Biggs26:35

It is. It's a very optimistic thing to do gardening because you are planting for the future and it gives you a sense of responsibility and you want to stay and see what it looks like. And that's exciting looking to the future. And I think that's what keeps a lot of people going. I mean, some people are amazing. If you look at somebody like Capability Brown, he planted trees and people 300 years later enjoying his vision. I don't think I'm quite on that scale.

Sue Biggs27:03

I'll go for loving what I see when I get home tonight of what's come. It is a very optimistic and wonderful thing to do gardening. It's time for your next track. Tell us why you've chosen it. Because things were quite tough for my 50s and there were times when it did all seem a bit doomy-gloomy, I had to find a way to persuade myself that lots of people were far worse off than I was and get over myself and really cheer myself up. So I used to put on I Love My Life by Robbie Williams and put it on at full blast and shout it out in my terribly flat voice just to myself and it really works. It really works as it really reminded me of even though there was tough times I had amazing things in my life too and I still play it to this day today because I do love my life. I mean when I think this is my job and you know going into the gardens and the shows of the RHS I'm very very lucky so I do love my life and I love this track.

Speaker 128:02

I pray that I'm giving you all that matters. So one day you'll say to me...

Speaker 128:11

I love my life.

Speaker 128:14

I am powerful.

Speaker 128:17

I am good.

Speaker 428:17

Beautiful.

Speaker 128:18

Uh

Speaker 428:19

I am free.

Speaker 428:21

Go by line.

Speaker 428:24

I don't wanna fall up.

Speaker 428:27

I am magical.

Speaker 428:31

Yo

Presenter28:33

I Love My Life by Robbie Williams. Sue Biggs, one of your concerns in your current role is that we're facing a green skills crisis in the horticulture industry. How bad is it and what might the consequences of it be?

Presenter28:47

Yeah.

Sue Biggs28:47

Well, it is bad. It was bad before we came upon the Brexit side of things, and it's going to be even worse after Brexit because a lot of the people working in horticulture are coming in from overseas, particularly Eastern Europe. Now, leaving aside that bit, not everyone views horticulture as a career to be respected and proud of. And yet, I look at our curator at Wisley, and he studied for seven years. He's post-degree level and creates amazing gardens and keeps them beautiful, grows fruit, grows vegetables, grows plants, trees. And to me, that deserves as much respect as somebody who's a doctor or an accountant or anything else that has more immediate respect.

Presenter29:29

How could you change that image and let people know that? What do we need to be doing that we aren't doing now?

Sue Biggs29:37

I think the main place it it needs to start is at schools and through careers advisers. It's also though through parents and grandparents. And it's a very diverse industry with great big industrial production and family places to work to. So there is everything in this industry. And I believe

Sue Biggs29:55

Even at the lower end, it is such a satisfying

Presenter29:59

Uh

Sue Biggs29:59

Job.

Presenter29:59

Uh

Presenter30:00

I am going to cast you away to our desert island, of course. How do you feel about the prospects?

Sue Biggs30:04

Well, if it was a Maldivian island, then I could maybe suffer that, because I love swimming and I love islands and I love the sea, the noise of the sea, but I know I also love people, so I think I'd get lonely quite quickly.

Presenter30:18

I imagine that you'll want to cultivate your garden, Sue. What will you try to grow there, do you think?

Sue Biggs30:23

If it is a Maldivian island, I will very soon lose weight and then quite possibly then die because they're all made of sand. So I'd have to just eat just fish and seaweed. So not even a palm or two? The odd coconut. If I could crack it open, yes, then I'd have that too. But.

Presenter30:36

So, um

Sue Biggs30:45

I I hope somebody would come by and rescue me after maybe a month of solitude and enjoying swimming in silence and these lovely eight tracks in my head that I'll be playing relentlessly. It's time for your final disc, your eighth. What have you chosen and why?

Sue Biggs31:02

Well, when I was 19, my first ever serious boyfriend, I remember distinctly being at a Sheffield nightclub and I loved Tina Turner and it was Nutbush City Limits was on and he stopped me halfway through. We were dancing together and he said to me, so you can't dance. You shouldn't dance. So from that day to now, I have never danced since. So this track, I am going to be on this desert island and I don't care what I look like, I'm going to dance to this track and it's uptown funk.

Presenter31:37

Yeah.

Sue Biggs31:37

I think we should dance to it now.

Presenter31:39

Just to show him.

Sue Biggs31:40

Yeah.

Speaker 131:47

Don't believe me, just by

Speaker 131:56

Don't believe me, just why

Speaker 131:58

Don't believe me, just mine

Speaker 432:00

Don't believe me, just wild

Speaker 132:02

Uh

Speaker 432:02

Don't believe it is my eyes. Hey, hey, hey, oh

Speaker 432:07

Wait a minute.

Speaker 432:08

Put some nigga in it.

Presenter32:11

Uptown Funk by Mark Ronson featuring Bruno Mars and we did some excellent dancing to that track Sue Bigs ahead of time.

Speaker 432:17

That's it.

Presenter32:19

Now, so I am about to cast you away. I won't be sending you off to the island without a few bits and bobs to help you pass the time, though. You'll have the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to keep you company. You can also choose a book of your own to take with you. What would you like?

Sue Biggs32:33

I read the most amazing book last year called The Book of Joy and I'm not particularly religious but this is by Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama and it's the most wonderful book of two old men with beautiful photographs of them laughing together just talking about stories about humans and how they've been uplifted in their life and it really is the book of joy so I'd have to take that because it would just make me smile all the time.

Presenter32:59

I'll also allow you a luxury item to make island life more bearable. What will that be?

Sue Biggs33:03

This is easy. Yeah.

Sue Biggs33:05

It's got to be a bed.

Presenter33:06

Yeah.

Sue Biggs33:08

I get really grumpy if I can't sleep properly. So I think a beautiful bed that I could just lie on the beach, on the bed, looking at the sea and thinking, no, I think I'll get out of bed now and go for a swim.

Presenter33:19

It's yours. Finally, if you had to choose just one of your eight discs to save from the waves, which would it be?

Sue Biggs33:25

Yeah.

Presenter33:25

Yeah.

Sue Biggs33:25

This is so hard. I'm tempted to say Uptown Funk, but I might frighten all the fish too much. So I think it would be Lark Ascending'cause it's the longest track, so that would be lovely. But it reminds me of my mum too and all of my family back in Sheffield. So the Lark Ascending.

Presenter33:43

Lovely choice. Sue Biggs, thank you very much for sharing your desert island discs with us. Thank you very much.

Presenter33:57

As we leave Zoo dancing on her island thinking about Russell Crowe, there's just time for me to remind you that there's a whole range of fascinating castaways in our back catalogue, including some fine gardeners. You can search for Monty Donne, Christopher Lloyd and Jeffrey Smith's Desert Island Discs via the Desert Island Discs website and on BBC Sounds. Sue and I were chatting about the beneficial effects of gardening and in 2017 the writer and gardener Anna Pavord was cast away by Kirsty Young.

Speaker 134:25

As you go out into the garden of a morning,

Speaker 134:28

What pleasures your soul?

Speaker 134:31

Well, oddly enough, where we are now.

Speaker 134:33

I would say that I spend probably more time with my back to the garden than actually looking down at the things that I should be doing, because the situation is on a south-facing slope overlooking a valley. And the way that the light is moving in the valley, and what the rooks are doing in the sky, and what the sheep are doing, all these things have somehow become a paramount interest to me. And the weeding tends to get left slightly behind. But I did have a bit of a scurry around yesterday evening because I thought, crumbs, if she asks me what I've been doing in the garden, I better have been doing something. So actually, I was hauling in those some lovely succulent black aeoniums called Schwarzkopf. So I was getting those into the greenhouse and I felt, yes, that's a good job, that one. And describing contact with the outdoors as a need, what do you think happens to us humans when we don't get it? Do you know? I don't know, because I've never been without it. And I think possibly there are people who want to be in cities, who find the comfort that they need in cities, and would find themselves a bit at sea in the country, in the sort of certainly in the isolated state in which we live.

Sue Biggs35:40

In both of the gardens that you've created, you know, you've had lots of acres to play with. Many of us just have a few pots on a terrace, you know, and it might be just outside the back door. What should we be planting in those? How can that be rewarding for people?

Speaker 135:52

I think any space that you can go out into is rewarding. I think gardening in pots is a fantastic plus and window boxes. And you see, actually, I walked over from Broadcasting House to look at the tree just planted over the other side of the road there, where actually they've done a really nice underplanting, a box round the edge, and then lovely cyclamen, and then, you know, the Christmas cherry. And it's really so bright and so, you know, it's something that you would never find in the country. You don't use gloves when you're gardening. Why not? Well, I had a good scrub up before I arrived this morning. Let me see your gardener's fingernails. They look pretty clean to me. Yes, that was a lot of scrubbing. I like to feel the plants. I like to feel the earth. I get a real sensuous pleasure from the touch of plants and from the touch of the earth and, you know, the feel of sticks and all the other things that you sort of have to touch when you're gardening. It's all part of it. It's a sensuous business.

Sue Biggs36:20

I mean

Presenter36:21

Uh

Presenter36:24

Uh

Sue Biggs36:24

Let me see.

Presenter36:25

Good name.

Presenter36:44

The writer and gardener Anna Payvoard. It's a really fascinating programme, so do have a listen. Next time on Desert Island Discs, you'll be able to hear the chef Marcus Waring. Join me then.

Speaker 437:06

Hello, it's Sophie Duca. Heidi Regan.

Sue Biggs37:08

Ned Sedgwick here.

Speaker 437:09

We've been given 30 seconds to tell you why Grown Up Land is the podcast that will change your life for the better.

Sue Biggs37:15

Why you'll be healthier, happier, more culturally enriched and totally confident about everything in every way.

Speaker 437:20

But there is a small snag, as none of that is true at all. What you will become is confident that everyone else is just as confused, frustrated and anxious as you are. Every week we're joined by a brilliant guest to talk about things like sex, fear, rejection, jealousy, sex, and we often end up sharing way too much about our personal lives. Yeah, I should really reign that in.

Sue Biggs37:40

That's Grown Up Land, the podcast about the exhausting pursuit of adulthood.

Speaker 437:44

Make sure you subscribe on BBC Sounds.