Tom Kerridge

Presenter0:01

BBC Sounds, Music Radio Podcasts. Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs Podcast. Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island. This is an extended version of the original Radio 4 broadcast and, for rights reasons, the music is shorter than the original broadcast. I hope you enjoy listening.

Presenter0:50

My castaway this week is the chef Tom Kerridge, proud owner of three pubs, a catering business, one London restaurant and a hat-trick of Michelin stars. He's the first chef to win a pair for his Marlowe pub The Hand in Flowers, as well as being a familiar face on foodie TV. He got an unlikely start in the kitchen, rustling up Findus Krispy pancakes and beans on toast for his little brother while his mother was at work, but it was walking into a hotel kitchen at 18 that changed everything. He says, You fall in love with the people, the environment, the space. The guys in the kitchen were very similar to the naughty kids I went to school with. I was very lucky that I walked in somewhere and knew that would be my life. Not bad going, considering he was only there to do the washing up. His kitchen door may bear the legend Danger Do Not Enter, Pirates with Knives and Fire, but perhaps he's mellowing a little bit. These days the culinary rock and roll excesses have gone on the back burner as he's made changes to his lifestyle that helped him lose an astonishing twelve stones in weight and learn to love the gym. Very useful when it comes to keeping up with his young son and as an added bonus his weight loss cookbooks have become bestsellers too. Tom Kerridge, welcome to Desert Island Discs.

Tom Kerridge1:57

Thanks so much for having me.

Presenter1:58

Well, it's a pleasure. So you have, so to speak, got a lot on your plate. How on earth do you manage to fit in training now on top of the demands of your career and family life?

Tom Kerridge2:07

as a chef, you you kind of forego a lot of sleep. So I've always been quite good at getting up in the mornings, like powering through, walking up the road with your eyes closed or making a cup of tea or all of that stuff from early doors in a kitchen. I've always been quite good at powering on with very little sleep. And I kind of have the same ethos to it now.

Presenter2:26

You opened your first establishment back in two thousand five with your wife Beth, who is a sculptor. She took some time off to work on that project with you. How did you find working together?

Tom Kerridge2:36

Well, we still do to a point. The first year was pretty difficult, I got to be honest. Like, as a husband and wife, it's amazing. Because it's bumpy. You know, you spend time with each other and it's amazing as a husband and wife, but you then spend time with each other as a head chef and a restaurant manager. Finding that balance between being a work relationship and a husband and wife relationship is very difficult. And sometimes it spills over that you end up having an argument over the pass about something that no one else in the team needs to hear you arguing about. And I have to be honest, I owe everything to Beth. She gave up her career for a number of years. You know, she went to the Royal College of Art. She works as a technician for Sarantili Caro for nearly 10 years. She then went, okay, well, listen, I'll give you three years and we'll open the pub. And the idea was for me to cook and for Beth to make uncompromised art. And, well, The Hand of Flowers is nearly 14 years old. And further down the line, she's had the commission for the opening of the front of the Dubai Opera House, a massive five-metre marble piece. She's had sellout shows in London. She's, you know, she's an established artist in the art world now, which is amazing. So, but you have to drive forward and believe in yourself and stick by each other even through the rough times.

Presenter2:43

You're laughing.

Speaker 12:44

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter3:47

So let's dive into the music, and I think this is an artist that you've actually fed.

Tom Kerridge3:51

It's an Oasis track.

Tom Kerridge3:52

Liam, he wanted a table for a Sunday lunch and we couldn't get him in for about eight months. So we waited about eight months to get in and then came in for Sunday lunch and he was booked in at half one and he turned up at half eleven and started on the espresso martinez at half eleven and just continued all the way through lunch. And I'll remember it for the rest of my life. It was just one of the best moments ever. Like we were hung out for about 20 minutes chatting and I said, Do you want to come in the kitchen and say hello to the boys? He was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And by this point, it was the end of the meal. He kept his parker on throughout the whole meal, like eating Sunday lunch with it completely zipped up.

Presenter4:24

Never less than 100% Liam Gargo.

Tom Kerridge4:25

Alas

Tom Kerridge4:26

And he moonwalked into the kitchen and you can imagine these bunch of like 15 chefs are thinking what on earth is going on here and Slide Away is the track that I've chosen from definitely maybe for me arguably the best debut album ever and this is a track that I used to put on when I used to get in late at night about half past one on repeat and I would fall asleep listen to it and it'd be on all through the night so Slide Away is my first track.

Tom Kerridge5:04

Slide away, I give it all you've got. My today is falling from the top. I dream of you and all the things you say.

Tom Kerridge5:20

I want

Presenter5:23

Oasis and Slide Away. Tom Kerridge, some chefs play around with molecular gastronomy and dry ice and describe themselves as artists, but you describe cooking as a trade. Who's right, I wonder?

Tom Kerridge5:35

Well, everybody's right. But for me, it is like a trade. Like I'm a builder, I'm a carpenter. I've learnt the building block. Like you lay a foundation. I understand, you know, there's flavor of foundations, the process of cooking, the understanding of how to cut and cook different cuts of meat, an understanding of salt and savoury and acidity levels. They're all just building blocks in creating a dish, which is like building a house. But you learn it as a trade, and you can look at a house and go, That's amazing. And that's kind of like how we build dishes together.

Presenter6:06

So you have that kind of practical, you know, breaking it down into its constituent parts, and that is reflected in your creative process and the way that you approach putting food together. It is, yeah. And in an industry that is not exactly known for its job security, I mean, how precarious have things been for you in, you know, right back to the early days, you know, have you ever had that kind of sense of security?

Tom Kerridge6:28

Even now, I'm terrified that every day no one's going to turn up. Like, you know, we're fully booked in places and it's busy and it's good. But I'm terrified the phone stops ringing or something's not going to happen. And I think that's probably the same for every restaurant. You know, in those early years, you know, 2008, when that first recession hit, there was a period where we were very much struggling as a business across the board. But I think the one thing that you do, you can, as a smaller owner-operator, you can make decisions and you can you have to attack each situation. You can't just let back and let the business world as it is swamp you and swallow you up. You have to fight back and attack it. So we made a decision as a husband and wife on one day that we're going to put a £10 set lunch on. That's it. Set this 10 quid. We'll get bums on seats. It doesn't matter. We'll keep it feeling alive and active. And there were periods in that when I was doing 48-hour shifts pretty much. So on a Friday morning, I'd get up and get into the kitchen at around about 6:30. And we'd work all the way through to the end of a Friday night, clean down the kitchen, finish up by midnight. And then I'd start making loaves of bread. And we would do a pop-up bakery the next morning. So I would bake throughout the night, all Friday night. But then Beth would come in on the Saturday morning and we'd do a pop-up bakery and sell, it was probably about 200 loaves of bread I'd make overnight. But then I would go straight back in for lunch service on Saturday morning. I would be there and go through all the way to the end of Saturday night and then go home and go to sleep probably via the pub and then have a kip. So it would be from Friday night through the way to Saturday morning. We'd do that every week for a while.

Presenter7:55

How long's a while? I mean, how long can you do that?

Tom Kerridge7:57

It was a number of months that we would do that. But when it's your business, those are the sort of things you have to commit to. And I'm sure there's so many people that can understand and relate to that. But when you run a business and you've invested everything you've got, you've got no pension scheme, you've got no savings, you've got nothing. The only thing that you have is this business that you don't even own the freehold of the pub. You just got to go, right? I own this business to make it work. I've got the only person that can do this is me. So you just have to commit to it. You've just got to go double-footed, tackle straight in there and keep going with it. And that's it. You've just got to keep pushing on.

Presenter8:31

Time for some music, Tom Carriage. Tell me about your second disc today. Why have you chosen this one?

Tom Kerridge8:35

It's a Beatles track, kind of my first experience of music. My dad was a big Beatles fan, and it is one of my earliest memories of sitting on a sofa with big earphones on, like proper clumpy old school ones. Me and my brother with those connecting into this cassette player and listening to Here Comes the Sun. And it's quite weird because I don't really have many dad memories, but relating it to the Beatles and music, this is kind of one of the things that makes me think of him and a childhood.

Presenter9:06

Here comes the sun.

Presenter9:10

Here comes the song I say it's alright

Speaker 29:19

Little darling, it's been a lot of lonely.

Speaker 29:27

You darling

Speaker 29:28

It feels like

Speaker 29:30

Since it's been here.

Speaker 29:34

Here comes the sun.

Presenter9:37

The Beatles and Here Comes the Sun. Tom Kerridge, take me back then to your family kitchen when you were growing up in Gloucester. Who cooked there? It was quite.

Tom Kerridge9:45

A weird space, really. We grew up eventually as a single-parent family. My mum and dad split up when I was 11. But before that, there wasn't really a mum and dad relationship either. I suppose the best way of describing it is my dad wasn't exactly the best role model as a father. Okay. Because as a small child, he wasn't always there. And then as we got older and into teen years, he was very, very ill. So it was unrecognizable. So my mum took up the reins as a single parent hugely. She would go to rugby training with us and then cook Sunday lunch for all the rugby team that would turn up back at the house. And you know, and she was like this amazing woman that worked two jobs, thoroughly wanted the best for her kids. You know, me and my brother. We never lacked in love, but our food, she would work again in the evenings. So my first experience of cooking was probably cooking Finder's Krispie pancakes or doing fish finger sandwiches or pot noodles or doing stuff for myself and my brother as tea. And then once a week, we would do spaghetti bolognese, and I learned to cook the kind of ragu sauce with my mum. And the special thing about making it the day before you're actually eating it, and you hear so many times that it tastes better if you allow it to mature. And I don't know if my mum knew that or whether it was a mistake or whether it was something that.

Tom Kerridge11:02

But it's something that it tasted better the next day. So we'd always make it like on a Wednesday to eat on a Thursday. So Thursday we always knew was spaghetti bolognese day. And then on a Sunday, my mum always used to make a point of even if there was no money there, like we wouldn't have a joint of meat. She would quite often get like a sausage meat packet from one of the supermarkets that she would roast that as the joint. But we'd still have the vegetables, the cabbage, the carrots, the broccoli, the roast potatoes, the bits, you know, the things that me and my brother would argue over who has the crispiest potatoes. And that was such a joy for me because I didn't recognize it as being, oh, we can't afford a rib of beef. It was just like, yeah, it's the sausage meat thing. And it was, it was lush. It was key to it always the hospitality. My mum always welcomed so many people. So many kids, like proper naughty boys that we went to school with, could turn up late at night with a black eye or something, like, and my mum would always welcome them in, no matter what, make sure that they had a cup of tea. Do they want something to eat? Is it all right? Can she phone the parents? All that sort of thing. Like, it was always about, there was never a moment of no one being welcome in the house. So that terms of hospitality, of people being welcome and making people feel that they want to sit down and put the telly on or do what, like that, that was always key. And that's probably the biggest thing that I've learned-not food, about warmth and hospitality and love that my mum gave and still hugely gives to everybody that she lives nearby and locally with now.

Presenter12:26

Tell me about your next piece of music, Tom Courage.

Tom Kerridge12:29

There's a track from by Michael Jackson. For me, it was my first real live gig. And I remember queuing up overnight with my mate Neil to get tickets to go and see Michael Jackson perform at Cardiff Arms Park. So we were 16 and it was the first real experience of such an amazing and incredible, not just musician, but showman. The show itself was just absolutely jaw-dropping. And he was such an entertainer and such a superstar. And I have to be honest, I do feel a little.

Tom Kerridge13:05

Awkward when I talk about Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson tracks because of all the the negative publicity that goes alongside in it. But the track is don't stop till you get enough.

Tom Kerridge13:28

I didn't

Tom Kerridge13:31

Uh

Tom Kerridge13:32

Do you get in the book?

Presenter13:51

Grieving in the studio here, so don't stop till you get enough. Michael Jackson.

Tom Kerridge13:53

Stop till you get

Presenter13:55

Tom Carridge, what sort of teenager were you when you were growing up?

Tom Kerridge13:59

I was never the naughtiest boy in the class, although I did go to an all-boys comprehensive school in the middle of like three estates. So, I mean, to be the naughtiest boy in that, you'd have to be like real special. You like on a proper world-class naughty level. I didn't hate school. In fact, it was quite the opposite. I quite enjoyed school because it was hanging around with your mates and being friends and doing whatever else. But it just school really didn't connect with me in terms of academically. I'm much more of a practical doer. I came away with four GCSEs, which I'm quite proud of. I was never going to go on and do A-levels and go and do a degree, that's for certain.

Presenter14:34

Did you see yourself as talented? Did you think you had potential?

Tom Kerridge14:38

No

Tom Kerridge14:39

But I was never worried about what I was going to do. So my mum never made us make life decisions, never said to me, you've got to do this. She said, whatever you do, just make sure you do it the best you can. And I've always felt confident that I would do something with my life, but I had no idea what it was, and I was just waiting for it to turn up.

Presenter15:01

On your mum though, I do believe that she described a period after you left school as your dossiers. Yeah, they did. I was quite keen for you to talk me through that.

Tom Kerridge15:07

Yeah, and I didn't

Tom Kerridge15:09

Yeah, between the ages of sixteen and eighteen I kind of didn't do very much at all. Like there was a Y T S scheme that I was a kind of part on and then didn't really go. And then there was a thi I when I did a little bit of acting.

Tom Kerridge15:21

I think from being a youngster and being involved in a youth theatre or being involved is really good for confidence building. It's the same as being in a sports team. You do stuff and you to be able to stand on a stage and say things and do things. So I ended up just going to this youth theatre and being involved in it and I really quite enjoyed it. And it was in Cheltenham. So two lads, I went with, again, my best mate, Neil, I went to Michael Jackson concert with. We went to a youth theatre and, you know, that's full of... lovely girls from Cheltenham's Ladies College and we were two blokes from an estate in Gloucester. It was kind of like, you know, it was a good place to be. I think it was good fun. Like, I ended up filming the Christmas special of Miss Marple and then I ended up being... Hang on.

Speaker 115:41

Yeah.

Presenter16:00

Hang on, you know I'm gonna ask you who you what you were playing in the middle of the morning.

Tom Kerridge16:03

I played a ballstall boy. Yeah, it was set in a ball stall, so I was like some like ball stall kid in Miss Marple. But that was quite cool because I look back at that and go, yeah, so actually I hung out with Joan Hickson, you know, like the woman that you think is that's Miss Marple. Like I look back at that and go, yeah, yeah, I spent a couple of weeks hanging out with her filming like when I was 16 or 17. And then I went on to, I filmed two lots of different kids' TV shows, I think, for ITV, where I both of them I played a bully in, like a school bully. And then London's Burning was probably that was the last thing I think I did, London's Burnin'. I was my official title as the credits go up was Thug One, Tom Garridge. No, too much of a theme developing at that point. I was like, that's it, I'm typecast, that's it, I can't do this anymore. I mean, it was all good fun, like, but it wasn't really what I wanted to be. But Drew.

Speaker 116:39

Carriage

Speaker 216:41

Too much of a theme developing at that point.

Presenter16:51

Given the amount of drive that you obviously exhibit day to day and that you've had to have to get to where you are now, what do you make of that kind of period where you were drifting to some extent?

Tom Kerridge17:02

I suppose if it went on any longer, over the age of like 18, or you'd start to worry. I could imagine as a parent, you'd start thinking, listen, you really got to pull your socks up and do something here because this is getting like a bit of a joke. I knew something would happen somewhere. I was just trying to find the right thing. And then when I went in and washed up and started cooking, it suddenly became, oh my God, this is it. And the beautiful thing about the hospitality industry is it's never about money because if it's about the money, you're in the wrong job. It's about you're just in a space that you love and you thoroughly the left field way of life, the rock and roll style of it, everything that's a part of it, it suddenly becomes quite, it's a very cool thing. I mean, it's such a wonderful industry. You can travel the world, you meet so many different people, you can cook on so many different levels, and it's such an amazing industry. And I was so lucky, so lucky to find it, or it found me.

Presenter17:54

For now, let's go to the music. What's your fourth disc to day, Tom?

Tom Kerridge17:57

For me, one of the most underrated bands I think ever, and it's Placebo and their track Black Eyed. And it's I went to see him a couple of years ago in Brighton and

Tom Kerridge18:10

The people that went to go and watch Plo, they're kind of, it almost felt like they connect to people that are social misfits. Don't always feel that they're the same as everybody else. We're not in the same box as everyone, but then when they were all together, everyone was the same, it was socially connected, and it was amazing, it was wonderful. And then to see Plo play Live for me is the best live band I have ever seen. The drums in this track, Black Eyed, are amazing. And also, there's a few lyrics about coming from a broken home and how it connects. I mean, it slightly feels a little bit loose cannon-ish, and I'm not that much of a loose cannon, but I do connect to the lyrics in this song very much.

Speaker 218:56

Uh

Speaker 118:56

I was never faithful and I was never one to trust.

Speaker 119:04

Borderline in schizo and guaranteed a part of fuss

Speaker 119:11

I was never loyal except to my own pleasure, so

Speaker 119:19

I'm forever black-eyed, a part of a broken home.

Presenter19:29

BlackEyed by Placebo. So tell me then about finding your niche. You enrolled on a catering college course as well as working in a Michelin star hotel. How quickly did you realize that you'd found the right path, the right place for yourself?

Tom Kerridge19:43

Once you get over the initial, my God, I'm tired, my feet hurt, moments, and they're weird because some days they can be long 15, 16 hour days, sometimes more. But then the end of it, that one beer with your bunch of chef mates that might only be 15 minutes and a cigarette out the back.

Tom Kerridge20:05

It makes it all so special. It makes it worth it. It makes the whole thing that the adrenaline of getting through the day to get to the other end is just fantastic. And it was just like it really did capture my heart. And I like the pain of it. I like the graft of it.

Presenter20:20

Who were your role models during this time? I mean, you know, nowadays T V schedules are awash with cookery programmes, including your own, of course. There's plenty of, you know, great chefs for young people to look up to. But but what about you?

Tom Kerridge20:27

Yeah.

Tom Kerridge20:33

I look at Delia Smith, okay, because she's like the greatest. My mum had Delia Smith cookbooks, and you go, I mean, she's just phenomenal. And a Delia Smith cookbook that my mum had grease marks on it, and flour and little notes in it, and things like that. And I want my cookbooks to be the same. But then I suppose the real crossover, the first, I think, proper chef that made it big on TV that connected with people but cooked lovely food was Gary Rhodes. And I worked for Gary for a period as well, which I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed. But I think that probably the biggest influence is a chef that I've never worked for, and that's Marco Pierre White. When I was 18, he released a book called White Heat. And this book came out with all these vibrant pictures of the kitchen being alive and active and chaotic and fun and vibrant. And there's lots of quotes by brilliant French chefs telling you how amazing Marco Pierre White is. And all of a sudden, British chefs connected to this guy, this British chef from Yorkshire, who was cooking this amazing food. And this book was so, so special. Without that book, there wouldn't be half as many chefs my age cooking because Marco suddenly connected to people. And he was the first real rock and roll chef. You know, he would throw people out of his restaurant. He would, but if they're asking for salt and pepper, rumored stories, you know, there was all this kind of, it was a little bit like there was no Twitter and no internet, no, like these kind of rumored stories would appear. And Marco was probably one of the biggest influences.

Presenter22:00

Time for some more music. Tell me about your fifth disc today. Why have you chosen this?

Tom Kerridge22:04

It's the Progedy, and the track I'm going to choose is Everybody in the Place. And they've been a band that I've listened to from early career, you know, 17, 18, all the way through to now. And then again, I've been very fortunate to cook for them. And it was actually Keith's birthday. So they've been.

Presenter22:19

Keith for for the benefit of radio f

Tom Kerridge22:21

Four listeners, that's the one with the hair. Still has the hair. It was a table of eight. Three of the guys that were eating were vegan. So Keith had a vegan birthday cake. And you just think, Yeah, yeah, this is the Progedy. If you think of everything that they've done over their years, they're now sat having a vegan birthday cake whilst the boys in the kitchen are singing them happy birthday to Keith from the Progedy.

Presenter22:39

Who still has his double mojica?

Tom Kerridge22:41

They still have when they walked into the restaurant, the actual fire alarm was going off as the progeny were walking the

Presenter22:49

Ask the Twisted Fire Starters.

Tom Kerridge22:50

Yeah, you couldn't write it, could you? We had a chat for a bit. I mean, he's got all my cookery books. He was talking about the recipes that he's cooking. I'm like, oh my God, Keith's cooking for my cookery. I hope he's got like little marks in it of what he's done differently, like a Delia Smith cookbook for Keith. He used to be a butcher before he broke through in the project. He was a butcher. So this connection was like, yeah, it all came together and it was amazing. So them coming in and then, so for me, Progedy, everybody in the place, this is a real motivator. It's one if you're on a breakfast shift. No one wants a chilled-out song in the morning. You want this. This wakes you up and gets you cooking breakfast.

Speaker 223:09

So it all comes together.

Presenter23:55

The prodigy and everybody in the place. Tom Kerridge, people who've seen you on T V will know that you've lost an incredible amount of weight during the last three years. I think in chef terms it is Twelve Stone, which is an entire Jason Atherton.

Tom Kerridge24:08

Yeah, I've lost Jason Appetit.

Presenter24:10

I mean, what was the trigger point in deciding that you were going to make some changes and and lose some weight?

Tom Kerridge24:15

Age, it got to a point where I was 39, approaching 40th birthday. And for listeners that aren't there yet, and everyone who has reached it and gone beyond it, it is a point of reflection. You do sit back and you think, okay, what have I achieved? Where am I at? What's going on? What am I doing? To then go in, how do I want to live the next 40 years?

Tom Kerridge24:37

I wasn't going to unless I made a change. And that was very apparent. That epiphany moment, I suppose, of going, I need to do something here to move forward with it. There wasn't a health issue that arose. It was just a point of going, Some I've got to do something here. And I and I measured it on

Tom Kerridge24:56

Feeling healthier, jeans getting looser, throwing clothes in the bin, doing more, walking up the steps without getting out of breath. All of those sort of things were my measurable things rather than it being measured on an amount that I wanted to lose. Because I still don't know what weight I should be, really, what weight I am, where I'm going. I just wanted and needed to be different.

Presenter25:17

Having lost so much, what feels different to you? You mentioned being able to walk up the stairs, you know, your clothes feeling looser, but that then you must feel substantially different.

Tom Kerridge25:22

Loads feed.

Tom Kerridge25:26

Yeah, hugely. Well, yeah, and exercise was big. So I started off by swimming and I used to s and then I would sw I would swim a mile and I'd swim it really slowly and I and I wouldn't give up. And it's a big step to get into a swimming pool being that big. Like being conscious of your body and worrying about like it's not just going to the gym where you've got clothes on. You're you're just walking around in your pants essentially. But how interesting that you chose? Ba

Presenter25:47

Yeah, you chose like the hardest version of the you know, the thing that's the scariest.

Tom Kerridge25:51

Well, that was another reason. So, if I'm going to do it, well, I'll tackle it head on and I'll do this and I'll walk through a change room and get into a swimming pool, and I won't look or care or listen.

Tom Kerridge26:02

Swimming's very good because you become isolated. No one can talk to you. Your phone doesn't ring. There isn't a space that you're on your own. And I quite liked entering a space on my own because my life has got to a point where I'm never on my own. There's always somebody who needs something somewhere regarding business or like anything. And that's like I'm really happy with that. But swimming was quite good because all of a sudden it gave me a space to think through a new dish or a different thing. And I would, and swimming. So swimming became quite important. That has changed slightly because I've become more conscious of being able to get into the gym. So the gym has now become quite a big thing.

Presenter26:37

Let's go to our next track. Tell me about your sixth disc today. Why have you chosen this?

Tom Kerridge26:42

This is actually a very difficult song for me in terms of a time of my life and what it represents. So the lead up to losing weight, when I stop losing weight, I also stop drinking. And alcohol

Tom Kerridge26:57

Um

Tom Kerridge26:58

Had got a grip is probably the best way of describing it. I have completely destroyed alcohol for myself. I am untrustworthy with it. I got to a point where I was drinking huge amounts every night, never during the day, always after service, but it was colossal amounts. I was, and probably I would say still am, dependent on alcohol. So I haven't touched it for six years. It makes me feel very uncomfortable and not being around it. And this is where I suppose being running pubs, I've been able to remove myself from it as it's now part of the business that I offer, not my personal life. So I sell it and I'm proud to sell the best beers and great wines and fantastic gins and whiskies. And but it's, I don't touch it. I can't touch it. I'm untrustworthy with it. I don't, I, there is no stopping me when I have one. There's no, I don't understand our drink at all. I don't get our beer. Like, for me, it's like nobody has just a little bit of something. The purpose of it is to get smashed in drunk. And I don't, I don't, I have no enjoyment in the understanding of having a single drink. So, um,

Tom Kerridge28:13

John Bramwell is a singer-songwriter from the band called I Am Clute. He's also fairly open with his chaotic musician-like lifestyle. He sings about it a lot. And this track for me hugely connects to me. It's the most beautiful record I think ever written. It's very special. It relates to alcohol. It relates to a slightly dysfunctional relationship with it, with other people. The most amazing thing about Clute is that they're one of the only bands that Beth allows into her studio. Like, she'll have music. Most of the time, she has radio 4, obviously. But other times she will have bands. She doesn't let many bands infiltrate her studio when she's working, but Clute are one of them. And it's a very special band. It's a very special song. And it does make me feel like it's the most wonderful track. But every time I hear it, it makes me feel almost sick in my stomach that it relates to a period where I am.

Tom Kerridge29:11

freely admitting that I have an issue with a substance.

Speaker 129:18

Hey.

Speaker 129:20

Could you stand another drink? I'm better when I don't think Seems to get me Brill.

Presenter29:28

Uh

Speaker 129:28

And say

Presenter29:30

Uh

Speaker 129:30

Do you wanna spin another line like we had a good time? Not that I need proof.

Speaker 129:38

Well we're living in a hotel Someone's ringing my bell No.

Presenter29:44

A room without a view

Presenter29:48

I am Clute and Proof. So, Tom Carriage, a track that you love, but one that is painful to hear because it it mirrors an experience that you've had.

Tom Kerridge29:58

Yeah, not just an experience, a whole period in my life. And it's really weird because I find it difficult to, because I don't regret that period at all. Alcohol became a huge release for driving a business forward, to winning Two Mission Stars, to creating a space, to building this platform that we have for everything, for all the staff and the people. And it always proved this massive release of energy, of pressure.

Presenter30:25

And there's the work hard, play hard mentality, which is one thing.

Tom Kerridge30:29

Yeah.

Presenter30:29

But how do you know when you've gone beyond that and you've strayed into territory where this is a problem?

Tom Kerridge30:35

Okay, you know you've gone beyond that when you drive around in the boot of your car with a case of beer and a bottle of gin just in case you're working somewhere that night and the bar is closed by the time you get there. That's something you did. Yeah, yeah. That is a point where you go, okay, if I if I at the end of wherever I am, I might be away cooking somewhere, I might be filming, I might be doing something. If it gets to a point where I go back to the hotel and the bar is closed, I had pretty much a sleepless night the night before knowing that I go away, thinking that I won't be able to get a drink at that point.

Presenter31:07

Who did you talk to?

Tom Kerridge31:08

No one no one

Tom Kerridge31:11

At that point, everyone knew. Like, I'm in an industry full of play hard, party hard, rock and roll chefs that big awards dues, big drinkers, big people. I would always be last man standing at every awards due and then go on to something else. Come on, let's go, let's go find some more. Let's go do it. Let's like driving it on, on, on, on all the time. So, industry-wise, everybody knew that I was a big drinker.

Tom Kerridge31:37

At home, staff-wise, everybody knew I was a big drinker. At the end of service, I would order like a pint of Negroni, you know, and that would be like a start of it. It wasn't something that I hid.

Tom Kerridge31:48

Again, it's one of those things that I will do things excessively. If you want to drink and party hard, then I was I will be the best at this and I will drink more than everybody and anybody else. And clearly that was a huge amount to do with the weight gain and also obviously helped in weight loss when I stopped.

Tom Kerridge32:05

I look back at it and I don't regret a single minute of it, but I do feel.

Tom Kerridge32:10

Massively uncomfortable thinking of that person. And every now and then I miss that guy. I miss the chaos. I miss the fun and I miss and I regret that I can't ever do that just once'cause I can't and I know I can't be that person. There was an example and it must have been about

Tom Kerridge32:26

Four and a half years ago and it was a Saturday night and I went we finished I finished working at the Hand of Flowers and I and I went into a local pub met Beth I said come on it's a Saturday night it's 930 I'm gonna I'm gonna sneak off early let's go so we took her out for a drink she had a glass of wine and I ordered a bottle of non-alcoholic beer and I'd done eight bottles of them in 20 minutes it was frightening and it was horrible so I said to Beth we have to go home now how did you cut out your drinking stopped I worked it out for myself and I stopped I just went cold turkey one day that was it but that was the three month process to working up to it I let it in a little bit at the beginning because I said to Beth I won't drink unless we go to a live band

Tom Kerridge33:05

And we'd go and see Clute, we went to see him play in Bristol, and it went pear-shaped. It went back to the hotel, and I started ordering sherry and pork. And it was just, and I woke up the next morning and I just thought, it's ended. That's it. There's no more. I can't do this. It just cannot exist in my life. I would like to think that maybe one day I could enjoy a glass of red wine with the roast beef that I love so much, but at this moment in time, there's no way that's allowed in my life.

Presenter33:30

And you don't worry about that anymore. You feel comfortable talking about it.

Tom Kerridge33:34

No, I do worry about it. I worry about it all the time. And it's weird when you find yourself in a position like this. I never thought of leaving school that I'd find myself on Desert Island disc talking about Oasis and Clute and then talking about a problem with alcohol and going, actually, when you are that person that we have a voice that is now on the radio or you are on the television. And the reason why I went through the weight loss thing and then wrote the book, the first book, was this is my journey. And if it helps one person lose weight and get onto a different lifestyle that they want deep down, then it's worth doing. The same as being able to talk about alcohol in a position that actually, if you can approach it with the right.

Tom Kerridge34:17

Mindset, you can do this.

Presenter34:20

Let's have some more music. Tell me about your seventh disc today.

Tom Kerridge34:23

One of my favourite bands ever, and it's a band called The Rifles. They played at my 40th, which was pretty much the last time I drank. I mean, my 40th birthday was, I have to be honest, it was quite special. I shared it with Daniel Clifford to Mission Star Chef. So we hired a big barn in Marlowe. We had about 250, nearly 300 people there. We had 10 barbecues there. We had pretty much every Mission Star Chef in the country cooking. The Rifles came and played live, and then Danny Rampling finished it off with the DJ set up until the early hours. The bar, I stocked it thinking, right, I'm going to drink again tonight. This is it. It's my 40th. I'm just going to let go now for once. And I start the bar. We had to go out and refill it three times because there were 250 chefs there. I forgot that they all were capable of what I used to be capable of. And I was very fortunate that they allowed us to use this track for my first solo TV show on BBC Two, which was the proper pub food show. They let us use this track as the title music. So they've got so many good tunes, but this one is quite special to me because it comes from the TV show. So it's called Tangled Up in Love.

Speaker 135:33

Can't find the perfect word to say

Speaker 135:38

How could I?

Speaker 135:41

For nothing could relate

Speaker 135:45

This feeling

Speaker 135:49

There's so many words.

Speaker 135:53

But nothing hits the mark

Speaker 135:57

The child has a tongue.

Speaker 136:00

Returning my

Presenter36:05

Tangled Up in Love, The Rifles. Tom Carridge, what advice would you give to listeners who are aspiring chefs that want to run their own place like you do?

Tom Kerridge36:14

Being a chef isn't actually about food. Being a chef is about organization structure, being able to cope with the orders coming in. Then it is about the food. You can teach anybody to cook. That's a skill set and a trade.

Tom Kerridge36:30

The rest of it is about organization and making sure that you're ready to go for it. And if anybody is out there that wants to get into the world of cooking, just do it.

Presenter36:39

You have, of course, a career that that sees you surrounded by people, looking after them, making them happy. I wonder how you will cope with the solitude that is going to greet you on our desert island. It's going to be very quiet.

Tom Kerridge36:50

I know. I think I might enjoy it for like a day and then I like I'll after that I think I'll be so bored. I'd end up talking to myself. You know like um Tom Hanks in Castaway when he created Wilson. Like I'd have to make a Wilson. Yeah, I'd have to have a fake friend. I'll probably have three or four fake friends. Hello. Hello. Are you

Presenter37:03

There's that idea.

Speaker 137:04

Yeah, I'd have

Presenter37:04

Yeah.

Presenter37:09

Are you practical? Could you build yourself a shelter?

Tom Kerridge37:12

Yeah, I'd have a go at everything. I have to be honest, so our house is slightly the reverse. So, Beth can Megan Tig World, she's a sculptor, she works with metal and bronze casting, and she's got all the tools that any builder would be jealous of. Like, she is the most practical person there. I do the cooking, but I am not scared of having a go at anything. So, whether I'd actually be any good at it, Beth would say, No, he's rubbish. One more track to play for you before you go, though. It's the National, which is an American band from Ohio, and it's called Fake Empire. And it's because I feel that I'm in a fake empire. Like, it's, isn't it all a black? Like, I'm a guy from Gloucester that didn't do very well at school, that just found a job that I like doing, and just I've just said yes to everything and just gone, yeah, let's do it, let's do it, let's do that, let's do this. And then, before you know it, you're 45 years old, and I've got there's like 250 members of staff, and you've got Michelin stars. And I'm like, How on earth am I here? And I'm so proud of everything that.

Tom Kerridge38:19

On a personal level, that I've achieved, but on a team-building level, I'm so proud of everybody that they're so special that they've created this space that has huge foundations. But I'm like everybody I think that does all right in business, there's a bit of you that is terrified it's all going to collapse and fall apart. And I'm waiting for somebody to tap me on the shoulder and go, All right, mate, listen, your time's up. You've blagged this for long enough. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Come on, yeah. You have other two mission star chefs that walk around with their chests out and wear chefs' jackets, and they're like, Yes, look at me. And I'm almost apologizing for it. It's like, I'm not really sure it's her.

Speaker 138:42

Good thanks you guys.

Presenter38:54

We've been on Desert Island Discs now. Yeah.

Tom Kerridge38:56

Let us change

Presenter38:57

Two.

Tom Kerridge38:57

The bro

Presenter38:57

Come on, when's he gonna sink in?

Tom Kerridge38:57

Come on.

Tom Kerridge38:58

Yeah, but that's it. This is another one of those moments I can go, are they sure they wanted me? Like, I'll be walking up, I'm pretty sure. It was Gordon Ramsey they were after. It was definitely.

Presenter39:06

No, it was definitely you that you booked. But we do want to hear the national, so let's play it.

Tom Kerridge39:08

Yeah.

Speaker 239:12

Stay out super late tonight Picking apples, making pies Put a little something in our lemonade And take it with us, put it off away In a fake empire

Speaker 239:32

We're halfway in a fake empire

Speaker 239:41

Tiptoe through our shiny city

Speaker 239:44

With

Speaker 139:45

Uh

Presenter39:45

The National and Fake Empire. So I'm sending you away with three books: The Bible, The Complete Works of Shakespeare, and you can take one of your own choosing. What's it going to be?

Tom Kerridge39:55

It's very difficult for me, right? Because I was going to choose the Michelin Guide 2012 when we won two stars, right? But I have to be honest, there ain't much else to read in it. But I'm not going to take it. I'm going to take the Marco Pierre White Whiteheat cookbook, but the 25-year edition, because second to winning Two Mission Stars, one of the proudest moments of my career is being asked by Marco to write a piece for the re-edition of the After 25 years. So I'm so proud of that. So that I'm going to take Marco Pierre White's White Heat, the 25-year anniversary.

Presenter40:30

You can also have a luxury, something to make your time on the island a bit more bearable.

Tom Kerridge40:34

I am a bit of a man of routine and I have to shave my head every day. So I will be taking a razor sharp shaving kit so I can shave my head.

Presenter40:42

Are we talking just like, you know, bristle brush and razor blades, that kind of thing?

Tom Kerridge40:46

It will be in a bag, but it will have the shaving gel and half-disposable razors, like the handle that you clip off the other bits. And then it has a moisturizing cream and an oil that goes on the top. So that's the routine every day to shave my head. It goes in one bag. I can't just have like a razor blade because I'd end up with a rash and it'd be horrible. And then I'd have to stop cutting my hair. And if I did that, what would happen? It only grows at the side. So I'd end up when I finally get rescued, I'd look like Krusty the Clown from The Simpsons. I can't have that.

Presenter40:53

Yeah, it's a

Speaker 140:53

Yeah.

Presenter41:15

So the shaving kit will be yours. And finally, which one of these eight discs today would you save above the others?

Tom Kerridge41:23

Because it's so prominent and because when I hear it it almost makes me want to cry and because it was from a special part of my life and also because I think it's one of the most beautiful records ever written, I am going to take I Am Clute and Proof.

Presenter41:36

Tom Carriage, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Tom Kerridge41:40

Thanks so much for having me.

Presenter41:55

Hi, I really hope you enjoyed that interview with Tom Kerridge. You'll have heard him refer to Delia Smith and memories of his mum's well-used and fairly splattered Delia cookbooks. Well, she was Roy Plumley's castaway in 1982. We've cast away many chefs over the years, including Ruth Rogers, Nigella Lawson and Gordon Ramsey, and I can confirm that Marco Pierre White did indeed ask people to leave his restaurants on occasions. Here he is, talking to Sue Lawley back in 1991.

Presenter42:21

Shall we deal with the reputation first, Marco? When are you rude to your customers and why?

Speaker 142:27

I don't believe I'm rude to my customers. I believe my customers are rude to me.

Speaker 142:32

And that's why I politely asked them to leave my restaurant.

Speaker 142:37

I don't like people who click fingers. I don't like people who mimic my French staff or have laughs at their expense, especially when they're working long days. They should be just left be. And what a lot of people don't realize

Speaker 142:48

His enjoyment in a restaurant is a two-way street.

Speaker 142:52

They have got to come in.

Speaker 142:53

to the restaurant and sit down and enjoy themselves and they've got to give off niceness and they've got to be polite with my staff and sh show affection. And if they get they do that then they get it back. If they come in and they're rude and abrupt and short,

Speaker 143:06

They don't wish to be served by them.

Presenter43:08

So what do you do? Just march out and say, Excuse me, would you leave?

Speaker 143:10

No, not necessarily. No, they've got to be very rude now. I mean, like nowadays, I mean, I just bite the leather and I sort of tell my manager. And we've both grown together because my manager was only

Speaker 143:20

nineteen when he joined me.

Speaker 143:22

And I was twenty five. I mean, we were very young boys.

Speaker 143:25

And he could barely speak English and I could barely cook and you know, I mean, we just did not do a very good job. I mean, it was like faulty towers, but

Presenter43:33

So this image that you have of being a a sort of talented young man who can't be bothered to control his temper'cause his success has gone to his head.

Speaker 143:40

But people who condemn me as being a talented young man who can't control his temper are people who obviously don't know me.

Speaker 143:46

I expect results.

Speaker 143:47

And if somebody makes a mistake in my establishment, then I do shout at them.

Speaker 143:53

Because at the end of the day, it's my name above the door, and if the customer writes a letter of complaint, then it's to me and not to the young person concerned.

Presenter44:02

Marco Pierre White talking to Sue Lawley. All those programmes are available to download. Next time my guest will be singer and songwriter Gary Barlow. I do hope you'll join us.

Speaker 244:28

Hi, I'm Monty. Sorry for interrupting your podcast.

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Just give me a minute. I've got something I think you'll really love. It's called Life Lessons. This is a podcast from BBC Radio 4. It's going to be full of the issues that are important now. And we'll hear about them from people who really know what they're talking about. Because these issues are at the centre of their lives.

Speaker 244:50

We'll be hearing about period poverty from campaigner Amica George.

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Questioning the food we eat from farmer Kate Moore.

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