Billie Jean King

Speaker 10:00

This is the BBC.

Presenter0:02

Hi, I'm Kirsty Young. Welcome to Desert Island Discs, where every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book, and luxury that they'd want with them when I cast them away. This is an extended edition of the original broadcast, although the music is shorter for rights reasons. I hope you enjoy the podcast.

Presenter0:42

My castaway today is the tennis player and campaigner Billie Jean King. With 39 Grand Slam singles, doubles, and mixed doubles titles to her name, she dominated the sport through the 60s and 70s. But given her on court era, her struggles weren't just with her down-the-line forehand. In 1967, she won all three Wimbledon titles for the first time: singles, doubles, and mixed doubles. Her prize.

Presenter1:08

A £45 gift voucher. And so, at a time when women tennis players' frilly knickers drew as much comment as their sporting skills, my castaway became a campaigner too, fighting for equality within her sport and going on to found the Women's Tennis Association and the Women's Sports Foundation. Later still, she stayed in the headlines by becoming one of the world's most high-profile campaigners for gay and lesbian rights. She says,

Presenter1:34

I love surprising people and throwing stereotypes to the winds. We would all be a lot better off as a society if we stopped assuming people are the way we judge them to be based on their exteriors and tried to see things from their perspective. So, welcome, Billie Jean King, to our little island. You've been coming to Wimbledon since 1961. You won here the first time that you visited. It was a Ladies' Doubles title. Nowadays, when you walk through these famous gates, what are your feelings about the place?

Billie Jean King2:05

Yeah.

Presenter2:05

Yeah.

Billie Jean King2:05

Well, this is my fifty eighth year.

Billie Jean King2:07

So I have many, many memories that flood into my mind and in my heart. And I always think about the first time. You know, it was so amateur in those days and so small, so less commercial than it is now. Although I think Wimbledon's kept an unbelievable balance with commercial, keeping the tradition and also having innovation as well. But when I go in, I think about how I used to buy bonbons to the right and go give them to the ball boys to the left. They didn't have any ball girls then. And I did talk to, I think, Captain Lane about ball girls to say it would be nice to have both. What did he say? He said I hadn't thought about it. So sometimes it's just people don't think about it.

Billie Jean King2:45

And there's many ways you can try to change things. And I try to always start nicely. In fact, I try to do everything behind the scenes first. I mean, that's how we got equal prize money at the USO, but

Presenter2:55

I was surprised to read you use the word about your sport. You sit you describe it as entertainment. Given the amount of skill and discipline that goes into making a Grand Slam winner, how come you think of it in that way?

Billie Jean King3:09

Everything's about the audience. Whether you give a speech or whether you are playing tennis at a professional level, first of all, I think you have the passion to play. That's first.

Billie Jean King3:19

And for me, I just wanted to be the best. I wanted to be number one. And when I was 11 years old, the second time I picked up a racket, went out to the park, they gave free instruction in Long Beach, California, where I'm from, I knew that's what I wanted to do with my life. And my mom says, calm down, you have homework and piano and all this. And I'm going, no, mommy, you don't understand. This is it. This is it. I just loved to play. But I had an epiphany at 12 years old. And I'd only played one year by then. And I was just sitting at the Los Angeles Tennis Club and daydreaming. And I started thinking about my tiny little sport of tennis that everybody who played wore white shoes, white socks, white clothes, played with white balls. And everybody who played was white.

Billie Jean King4:02

And at 12, I asked myself, where is everybody else? And that's what started me fighting for equality. That very moment was my moment.

Presenter4:09

Yeah.

Billie Jean King4:10

Uh

Billie Jean King4:10

Uh

Presenter4:10

Moment of truth. Given that you're you haven't played professionally for a long, long time, where do you put your competitive spirit now? I mean, are you a demon poker club?

Billie Jean King4:17

I'm not really so much a, I don't picture myself totally competitive. I'm much more of a perfectionist.

Presenter4:22

Okay.

Billie Jean King4:23

Trying to always get better and learn, keep learning. There's three things I always talk about at commencement speeches and conversations, like we're having right now.

Presenter4:30

Yeah.

Billie Jean King4:32

There's three things. And Ed Woollard, who used to be the president

Billie Jean King4:36

and CEO of DuPont.

Billie Jean King4:38

He's been a great mentor to me in my later business years. You know, we sit and talk and I said, Well, I need three quick things I can tell people they actually can remember and hold on to and maybe it'll help them.

Billie Jean King4:49

We came up with these three things. Relationships are everything. Keep learning and keep learning how to learn and be a problem solver. So I find if you find people in your life that have the inner success, not just outer success, because most of that today is about money. People are always so in gaga with billionaires and all that. And I'm thinking, yeah, but what kind of person are they?

Billie Jean King5:11

Yeah, I that's my always my question.

Presenter5:13

I'm so glad to be talking to you today. Tell me, of course, we've got to hear the discs, because one of the reasons I'm talking to you.

Billie Jean King5:17

Which drove me absolutely crazy. I'm sorry about that. This show, Desert Island Disc, has driven me insane. It's a kind of torture. Well, I only wanted about 100. I'm like, how am I going to do this? Chronologically? And then I thought about relationships or everything, and I thought I'd do that. People I'd known.

Presenter5:21

I'm sorry about that.

Presenter5:26

It's like

Billie Jean King5:38

And I love to promote others anyway, so.

Presenter5:40

Uh Tell me about your first disk now.

Billie Jean King5:41

I know Aretha a little bit. When this song, Respect, came out, you have to remember the timing. It was in the 60s.

Billie Jean King5:49

We just beginning the women's movement and this song, Respect, R E S, B E C D was so important, I think. I think it made us women stand up a little straighter and a little more self confidence and you know women are taught to be perfect and boys are taught to be brave.

Billie Jean King6:08

And we're not perfect. No one's perfect. But it gave us more self-respect and confidence, I think.

Speaker 36:15

He please.

Presenter6:16

See

Presenter6:21

So here's my money.

Presenter6:24

Skip it to me when you get

Billie Jean King6:27

Hey, be there, baby.

Presenter6:30

With the topic with

Presenter6:34

Yesterday I'm in

Presenter6:35

Uh

Presenter6:47

That was Aretha Franklin and Respect. Billie Jean, can you give us a little tiny little snapshot of your early life there? As you said, you were brought up in Long Beach in California. Your dad was Bill, a firefighter. Your mother, Betty, was a homemaker.

Billie Jean King6:55

California

Presenter6:59

At the beginning

Billie Jean King6:59

And then she started working later. She sold Avon and Tupperware.

Presenter7:00

Yeah.

Presenter7:03

It was interesting to to read about the sort of values that were instilled. You know, in what you've written about your early family life, it strikes me repeatedly that this was very much a kind of values based system. T tell me, just flesh that

Billie Jean King7:15

The three

Billie Jean King7:17

First of all, like dad being a firefighter.

Presenter7:17

First of all, I could.

Billie Jean King7:20

Firefighters are the guys or the women.

Billie Jean King7:23

who go in when everybody else is running out.

Billie Jean King7:25

He's really great in a crisis, but he's all my parents were good citizens. They were risk-adverse because they were depression children. My dad served in the Second World War.

Billie Jean King7:34

They're just basic, kind, hardworking, very strict but very loving parents. They weren't perfect. They were homophobic, so later in my life that was a challenge. But m my brother and I go, you know, when you're young, you think your parents are so tough and this. And we realize now that we're very, very fortunate with the the mom and dad we had.

Presenter7:53

And that structure then, so dinner was on the table at five.

Billie Jean King7:56

Oh yeah, five thirty. And my brother and I'd be running down the street. Hurry, hurry, it's almost half past. We gotta be on time. Oh yeah, very strict, very structured. But I think that helps children really when they're young.

Presenter8:08

And depression era parents who made you very aware of the importance of money, of budgeting. How did they do that in a practical sense?

Billie Jean King8:14

Well, my dad was not as good with money as my mother, so my dad would get his check and give it to my mother. And she was excellent. She could save money.

Billie Jean King8:22

My mom, Betty, made it work, even doesn't matter how much we had, and they were very good at saying no to us. I mean, we never went out to eat until we're, was I 11, and she didn't let me have like two things sometimes. She'd say, like a milkshake, you know, and fries, but it's really fun. And she goes, no, you can only have one. She'd make us aware of things, which I liked. And my dad was the same, really. He just knew. He said, oh, if I have the money, I'll have a hole in my pocket. So I give the money to your mom. And I think in every couple, whoever has the strength in certain areas, it's smart.

Presenter8:52

You said a very smart thing a moment ago before the last piece of music. You said, you know, females are brought up to be perfect and boys are brought up to be brave. Were you brought up to be perfect?

Billie Jean King8:57

Simple

Billie Jean King9:00

Yeah, my mother was always worried about me being a lady at all times and she wouldn't let me play touch football, which American football, sorry. By the time I was 10 or 11, I was furious. And she says, Well, I want you to always be a lady. And I go, What does that mean?

Billie Jean King9:12

I mean, really, think about that. What does that really mean?

Billie Jean King9:15

I want to be a good person. I want to be. Anyway. Did you articulate that at the time? Oh, yeah. I was upset with her. Oh, yeah, I had no.

Billie Jean King9:22

We get into it. You know, I used to argue more with my dad probably than my mom though, because my dad was such an athlete.

Billie Jean King9:29

He coached me. He was fantastic. Basketball was my first love. I played all team sports before tennis.

Presenter9:34

And Long Beach life is a very outdoorsy life. I mean, you've got the wet California.

Billie Jean King9:37

California, we're 18 miles south of Los Angeles on the coast. Obviously, we didn't live on the coast because that's the rich kids. No, we lived on 36th Street, so we're 36 blocks from the ocean, which made it still very easy to go. It was beautiful.

Billie Jean King9:53

I mean, you do get a lot of luck.

Billie Jean King9:56

I mean, if you look at my life, I had two parents who were fantastic. We had free access, free instruction for coaching. We had a very good school system at that time. So it was amazing life.

Presenter10:08

Time for some more music, Billy Jean King. Tell me about this second one.

Billie Jean King10:12

Diana Ross ain't no mountain high enough because when uh the USTA, the governing body of of Tennessee US would be L T A here in Britain.

Billie Jean King10:21

decided to name the entire facility of the U.S. Open, which is huge, just like Wimbledon, you know the grounds at Wimbledon? And they decided to name it after me.

Billie Jean King10:30

And the year they were doing that for me, that was in 2006. The person who sang was Diana Ross ate no mountain high enough and then they introduced me. I used to argue with USTA all the time, so it's like full circle, and I'll never forget it. But I love Diana Ross. I love Motown, but this was special because of the moment. My dad had just passed away, but Ilana, my partner, my mother were there, and our nieces, and that night was really special.

Speaker 110:57

And if you should miss my lover

Speaker 111:00

One of these old days

Speaker 111:02

If you should ever miss the arms it used to hold you so close

Speaker 111:06

All the lips that used to touch yours so tenderly, just remember.

Presenter11:12

Uh

Speaker 111:12

What I told you the day I said

Presenter11:14

Two three.

Speaker 111:15

Uh

Presenter11:16

Mountain High

Presenter11:20

Ah

Presenter11:36

That was Diana Ross and ain't no mountain high enough. So Billie Jean King, you were around about, what, ten or eleven, when a friend suggested to you that you might want to play tennis, is that right?

Billie Jean King11:44

Yes, in fifth grade Susan Williams, we're

Billie Jean King11:47

About ten, probably.

Billie Jean King11:50

She looked at me and she goes, Do you want to play tennis? And I go, What's tennis? She says, You don't know what tennis is? I go, No.

Billie Jean King11:57

And I said, Well, what do you do? She says, You get to run, jump, and hit a ball. I said, Those are my three favorite things in sports. I can't wait. Let's go And she belonged to a country club'cause her dad worked for Shell Chemical and had a really great job. And I don't know if I hit the ball or not, I can't remember. I know I had fun, but Susan was my best friend.

Billie Jean King12:16

But I thought, well, this will be nice if Susan takes me to the club, but I can't afford it. I should say, we, my parents. And so we also were on the softball team together, which is kind of like Rounders. Was that a girls' thing? Was it just girls that played that, right? Yeah, boys played baseball, girls play softball. That's a whole nother discussion, which we're not going to get into, but I don't agree with. But we went out to play at Houghton Park, and she told the coach, Val Howard, oh, you know, I took Billy to play tennis the other day. And she goes, oh, they have free instruction here every Tuesday. I went, now we're talking.

Presenter12:21

Yeah, it's been a while.

Presenter12:27

Was it just girls that played that, right?

Presenter12:33

Okay.

Billie Jean King12:46

So the first time I went out to Houndon Park

Billie Jean King12:50

to get instruction from Clyde Walker, who I adored from the first moment.

Billie Jean King12:54

That's the moment when I told my mom, I know what I want to do with my life. I want to be number one tennis player in the world. No, I've read this.

Presenter13:00

Yeah.

Billie Jean King13:00

Yeah.

Presenter13:00

So it was

Billie Jean King13:00

Yeah.

Billie Jean King13:02

Oh, absolutely for real. I was jumping up and down on the car seat, which I'm not supposed to do. That's why I remember it. And what was it? It was just, it was. I love to hit the ball. There's nothing like running, feeling the wind in your hair. And when you hit the ball on the strings, it is just magic. Oh my God, it's so much fun. It just feels great. And you have to bring all of yourself to be great in something anyway. But you have to truly bring all of yourself in tennis. It's upper and lower body, it's footwork, it's hand-eye. And there's something magical about the reflexes, and you feel the ball on the strings. It's just, oh my gosh, it's so much, it's just the best feeling. It's great.

Presenter13:38

I should tell listeners that when you're describing that moment of that sweet hit, and everybody knows it, even terrible players like me know it, you're closing your eyes in a kind of ecstasy. Do you still play for pleasure?

Billie Jean King13:47

I've only played a couple of times this year. I've had eight knee operations. I've had a foot operation, so I have to go work out a lot and do a lot of weights and a lot of things to be able to even play. Lilana, my partner, who was number one in the world in doubles from South Africa, she still plays really well.

Presenter13:50

Asian black

Billie Jean King14:02

And if we go out to hit, she put it right where I need it so I don't have to run. Because it's hard.

Presenter14:03

Yeah.

Presenter14:06

Tell me about the $8.29 in the mason jar in what you classify.

Billie Jean King14:09

Oh, yeah. Well, I went home and said, Oh, I want to play tennis. And my dad says, Oh, you do, do you? And my mom says, Really? I said, Daddy, we need to get a racket or something. He goes,

Billie Jean King14:20

Really? How are we going to do that?

Billie Jean King14:22

I said, I don't know. And he goes, well, you'll figure it out. My parents were always teaching my brother and I delay gratification. I don't know if they realized it, but they were great life coaches.

Billie Jean King14:31

And I said, really? You won't buy me a racket? No. You say you really love it. You like it. Let's see how much. So I went to all the neighbors. They were so sweet. And they made up jobs for me and they would give me a quarter or a dime or a nickel. And I'd keep saving it in the mason jar up in the cupboard. And finally, I had $8.29. And I could not wait any longer. I said, please, can we just go get me a racket? So we walk into Brown Sporting Goods and they go, what would you like? Would you like a racket? I said, what can we get for $8.29? What can we buy for that?

Billie Jean King15:04

He started laughing. I remember this man, and he says, Oh, here, come with me, and we can figure this out. And of course, I love purple. I love purple. It was really purple.

Billie Jean King15:12

Racket with the purple strings, the purple felt. I used to sleep with it. Oh my gosh, I was so excited.

Presenter15:18

Tell me this, as you described that rather brilliantly about what your parents kind of made you do. They were teaching you lessons in life, and also money was short. You know, if a child these days, in most households, not every household,

Speaker 115:25

Uh

Billie Jean King15:25

Uh

Speaker 115:25

Uh

Presenter15:29

Exhibits any kind of interest in anything, you know, the parents will support that. They'll try to get them the lessons if they can, they'll certainly get them the equipment.

Presenter15:37

Which way is the best way to to grow a champion?

Billie Jean King15:40

Well, I don't think any parent should grow a champion. You gotta find out if somebody loves what they do.

Billie Jean King15:45

See, everyone's given a gift or gifts and blessings in life.

Billie Jean King15:49

And then that's usually your strength in life.

Billie Jean King15:52

It really helps to usually follow that.

Billie Jean King15:55

And God gave my brother and I, thanks to mom and dad, great DNA for coordination.

Billie Jean King16:00

Although I wore glasses, when I put my glasses on, my eyes were amazingly still good. So we were really fortunate having our coordination.

Billie Jean King16:09

Piano was my first love, and they saved five years to get an upright piano for me.

Billie Jean King16:15

So when I started playing tennis, I said, Mom, I should quit piano. Tennis is it. She goes, No, until you can actually read music, you are not giving up piano. And she was walking up and down the hallway. I'll never forget, she was furious with me. It was good furious, though, because she was right. It's like you can't just give up something after they've put that time and effort. And I did love it. It's just, I didn't have it. So I knew early that God had given me my talent and my sports. And the teachers had written home, Mrs. Hunter in third grade when you're, what, eight? She said, Billie Jean, you know, she's always chosen the captain. She loves pressure. Keep her in sports. Oh, it was so sweet. And teachers are so important. So anybody out there, if you're a teacher, professor, whatever, thank you.

Presenter17:02

We're gonna hear your third disc Billie Jean King, tell me about this, why is it on the list?

Billie Jean King17:05

Nona Hendricks is a great friend, and she wrote this song and of course, Ilana's South African, so apartheid was big, and Nona and I have talked about it, but she wrote this beautiful song called Winds of Change, Mandela to Mandela.

Billie Jean King17:19

And I just love Nona. She I don't think she gets enough attention. She's mentored a lot of people in music. Anyway, I just love her. I think she's got a great voice, and that's why I chose because everything's about relationships today.

Presenter17:34

Sometimes the winds of change blows your way.

Speaker 117:41

You can choose to run, or stay and face the pain.

Speaker 117:46

Uh

Presenter17:46

Uh

Speaker 117:46

Sometimes you don't

Presenter17:47

But why?

Presenter17:49

You are called

Presenter17:53

They stand for something all for one and one for all.

Presenter18:00

Only time will show.

Presenter18:03

While the wind would blow

Presenter18:06

Be your way.

Presenter18:08

That was Nona Hendricks and Winds of Change. So Billy Jean King by nineteen fifty eight you had won the under fifteen Southern Californian Championships and y you were obviously you know you were still at school at that time but you were beginning to go outside the area and start to play. How did you afford that must have been exp

Billie Jean King18:24

It was very expensive. I got very fortunate. People in Long Beach helped me. The Long Beach tennis patrons had just started when I started playing. They helped the top two girls and the top two boys. Susan Williams was number one, I was number two.

Presenter18:37

Your parents obviously saw you rise to incredible world success. When you look back on it now,

Presenter18:45

What is your perspective of what it was they gave up for you and your brother and how much they put into you? How do you see that?

Billie Jean King18:51

My brother, Randall, and I were very clear that they were giving up a lot at the time. So we had that discussion. I think it helped that Randall wanted to be number one in the world, too, basically, by being in Major League Baseball is huge in the United States, okay? And he announced at 10 he wanted to be a Major League Baseball player. And of course, my family just fainted. Not you too, they said. I'll never forget their faces at the dinner table, them going.

Billie Jean King19:14

What?

Billie Jean King19:15

They just looked at each other like, oh, now what? I'll never forget the look. They put their heads down and their hands over their face. Oh my God, it was like, whoa. So they just knew they were in for it because we were pushing them. And like you said earlier, Kirsty, you know how parents can't wait to do something for their children. Let the child figure it out. Let them have their journey. I think that's probably one of the best things they did for us, they didn't care how good we were.

Billie Jean King19:41

Like, I'd come home losing, I'd be so furious, and my dad go, calm down, calm down. He'd go,

Billie Jean King19:47

Okay, did you try your best? I said, Of course I tried my best. Are you kidding? I said, I can't believe it. He says, Well, are you practicing too much? Are you burned out? No, no, no, no, I'm not practicing too much. All right, then do you need to practice more? Yes.

Billie Jean King20:01

I mean, I was crazed.

Presenter20:03

You know, my poor parents. By the time you got Frank Brennan on board as your coach, how did that change things for you?

Billie Jean King20:09

Well, first of all, they're on the East Coast in New Jersey. We're on the West Coast, 3,000 miles away. So I'm back east because everything's on the East Coast, the tournaments in the old days. He came up to me at the South Orange Lawn Tennis Club, and we used to have our tournaments there in the old days when we were amateurs. And he said, oh, you're going to be number one in the world someday. And I went, whoa, no one's ever said that to me. He says, yeah, and I've got a huge family. I said, what does that mean? He says, we've got 10 children, or nine children at that time. What? He says, yeah, if you need a place to stay in the East, because we always needed homes. So I started staying with him. And so I've gone from a family of two children to a family of nine children, soon 10 children. That was a great experience for me as well. But Mr. Brennan was a character. He was fun. The family was fun. It was family life more than thinking about coaching so much, although he would coach me.

Presenter20:56

I mean, obviously, there would be a lot of young, skilled, ambitious players at the time. What do you think it was?

Presenter21:02

That Frank Bennon saw in you at that stage to say, you're going to be number one. I have no idea.

Billie Jean King21:06

No.

Presenter21:07

Yeah.

Billie Jean King21:07

I don't know. He just felt it, saw it.

Billie Jean King21:10

I don't know. Anyway, it was nice that someone believed in me that much at that young age, because usually I was not considered. Karen Hance was ahead of me. Kathy Chabot was probably right next to me.

Billie Jean King21:20

I was always hovering.

Billie Jean King21:21

But you know what I did differently from a lot of young people?

Billie Jean King21:25

I try to get young people to think like this and to get the parents to think like this is even harder.

Billie Jean King21:29

is that it's really important to keep developing your game. What happens in junior tennis, the kids just want to win. I didn't think about winning. I just think children and young people should realize we all have a different journey. You get there at a different time.

Billie Jean King21:42

and keep developing your game.

Presenter21:44

More music, Billy Jean King, it's your fourth. Tell me about this

Billie Jean King21:47

Oh well.

Billie Jean King21:49

Met Catherine Jenkins, nice Welsh, beautiful singer, opera singer.

Billie Jean King21:54

At the Robox two or three years ago, she and her husband Andrew. So we hit it off.

Billie Jean King22:00

And when we go out to dinner and have the best time and we're so much older, you know, we're like laughing. So we've got this great friendship going. They're a very romantic couple, which I always like, because I think love's so important. And I asked her, I said, could you tell me your two favorite songs? And I chose World and Union. She loves singing that one. So my songs, now that I'm even thinking here, it's kind of bringing people together.

Presenter22:23

There's a dream I feel So rare, so real.

Presenter22:35

All the world in union The world as one Gathering together one light, one heart

Presenter22:58

Every creed, every colour, wants joint never

Presenter23:08

That was Katherine Jenkins singing World in Union with the lyrics by Charlie Scarbeck, accompanied by the Crouch End Festival chorus. The music Thaxted based on Holst's Jupiter from the Planets. So Billie Jean King, you arrived at Wimbledon in nineteen sixty one with your doubles partner, Karen Hans.

Billie Jean King23:25

Hance, yeah, Karen Hance. Everybody looked up to Karen. I saw her play when I was 12. I went, oh my god. She was always our number one player. She was 18, you were 17. And she asked me to play doubles and I fainted. I said, really?

Presenter23:33

In this

Presenter23:36

You said that when you were twelve and you'd fallen in love by that stage already with tennis that you s you looked at it and you thought, you know, the

Presenter23:43

The shoes are white, the balls are white, the costumes are white, and all the people are white. When you came to Wimbledon in nineteen sixty one there is there was surely nowhere more, if you will, tennis and proper than Wimbledon then.

Billie Jean King23:56

It was the elegant, which I liked. I loved tradition.

Presenter23:57

Describe it to me.

Billie Jean King24:01

I found that people who create new history really or create new things in life have an amazing appreciation of history. And I actually loved it. I loved the whole pageantry. And when I in 19 when was the coronation of Queen Elizabeth? 1953?

Presenter24:17

Yeah.

Billie Jean King24:17

We'd just gotten televisions in those days. One family had a television set on our block. And I remember seeing the coronation of Queen Elizabeth as what, ten year old or nine year old.

Billie Jean King24:30

And I'll never forget it. And it was really like snowy, blurry, black and white. Oh my gosh, I just loved it. And I'll just never forget it. And I think just seeing that as a child and then coming to England, I used to dream about Wimbledon. I used to know all the champions, singles, doubles, and mixed in the old days. I used to dream about it. I used to sleep with my racket, books, sweater, I mean, everything. And so when I finally arrived at Wimbledon, you had to win Wimbledon or you weren't number one in the world in the old days.

Speaker 124:34

Black and white.

Billie Jean King25:00

But I did notice it was all white. I was thinking, I have an unbelievable platform.

Billie Jean King25:06

of tennis. How over the years can we be more inclusive?

Billie Jean King25:11

Because you don't want to get rid of what you do have. You just want to add to it.

Billie Jean King25:15

But just having such a

Billie Jean King25:17

appreciation of its history and the champions that came before me.

Billie Jean King25:21

I was just in awe. I still am. I just, you know, every Sunday I used to go out.

Billie Jean King25:26

Before the matches start and sit up in the center court and just take it all in.

Billie Jean King25:31

Just be thankful that I had a chance to play there. All the great names that have walked on the to that center court. That's what floods my mind. When I come out and come around the corner at Wimbledon, I used to think, wow, who's played out here? This is such a privilege to be out here.

Presenter25:45

So much of your story is not just bound up with all of the titles you want. It is, of course, also. I don't care about that. Yeah, we kind of do, though.

Billie Jean King25:53

I know. It's nice. It's good for your resume, but it's really the journey and it's the process you go through that makes it worth it. I call it one ball at a time because everyone's into results. No, no, no. Stay in the process, stay in the moment. Mindfulness is big right now.

Presenter26:08

You're very interesting about the ephemeral nature of winning, is that it is just the moment and then it's gone. It's totally gone. So you've never kind of luxurious.

Billie Jean King26:11

But it

Billie Jean King26:17

We didn't have time, or I didn't have time because I was trying to change the game and trying to change opportunities.

Presenter26:18

We didn't have

Billie Jean King26:24

Looking back, if I were going to do it over again, if things were different, if I were playing today, I would take a lot more time enjoying my victories. But we always had meetings going on.

Billie Jean King26:33

It was rough. It was a rough time to go through. I always wonder how good I could have been as a player if I hadn't worried about helping women get started. Because if you go back to the 60s, I fought for pro-tennis. Thank God, the All England Club had a tournament in 1967 with eight men pros. Rod Labor was that. They weren't allowed to play at Wimbledon for like years and years. And Herman David, who was the chairman, realized we had to stop doing it the way he was doing it. Let's let everybody in. So 1968 was the first year that happened. And that's 50 years ago. This year, I'm like a guest of Wimbledon this year because of Rod Labor and I won it in 68. So we finally had pro tennis, but then the men rejected us because I wanted the men and women to have one association, one union, and the men said no to us. So we had to start our own thing.

Speaker 127:10

Yeah.

Billie Jean King27:21

Uh

Presenter27:21

Because

Billie Jean King27:21

Uh

Presenter27:21

It's very interesting to me that that you credit your former husband, Larry, with being the person who really began to introduce you to feminism.

Billie Jean King27:30

Oh, in a big way. We're walking hand in hand at Cal State LA University.

Billie Jean King27:34

In Los Angeles, and we're walking by the tennis courts, which I think is amusing.

Billie Jean King27:40

They said.

Billie Jean King27:41

Do you know why you can't get a grant to this school or a scholarship? He says, You're the best-known person at this whole school of 20,000 students, or whatever how many we had. You know, you're the best athlete here. And he's in biochemistry. He says, I get a tennis grant, and I'm the seventh guy on a six-man team. He was hilarious.

Billie Jean King27:58

And he said, and you can't get any of that because you're a second-class citizen.

Billie Jean King28:03

And why? Because you're a girl, and that is wrong. And boy, when he said that, I knew it anyway, but he just it was just like a crystal ball sitting right there. He was absolutely right on. But here's a male having that enlightenment was quite unusual. And I think it still is to today.

Presenter28:22

Time for some

Billie Jean King28:22

More music

Presenter28:22

Is it Billy Jean King? Let's go to your fifth. Why is it on the list and what is it?

Billie Jean King28:26

What is it?

Billie Jean King28:27

The fifth one is Sarah Borrellis, and it's called If I Dare, and this comes from the movie they just did.

Billie Jean King28:34

About my one little sliver of my life in 1973. I played Bobby Riggs, who was a Hall of Famer, won Triple Crown at Wimbledon in 1939, called The Battle of the Sexes. They wanted a song, so I met with Sarah. She said, I'm going to see your movie. And I said, Well, I'd love you, if you want to do it, I'd love you to do it.

Billie Jean King28:53

So she watched the movie a couple days later. She called and said, Oh my God, I love this movie. I would be a privilege. So she and Nick Brattell wrote it together. She's beautiful.

Speaker 129:02

If I dare to ask it

Speaker 129:05

If I dare it to be true, if I dare to risk it.

Speaker 129:11

But I know that I'm willing to

Presenter29:13

I dare to want this.

Presenter29:16

To want more than I have than I dare to

Speaker 129:18

Uh

Speaker 129:19

Dare to believe.

Presenter29:23

I'll have it in the end

Presenter29:36

From the original motion picture soundtrack of the film Battle of the Sexes, that was If I Dare, composed by Sarah Borelis and Nicholas Brattell, and sung by Sarah Borelis. So, Battle of the Sexes, then, which of course you won, it took place in 1973. Bobby Riggs, who then was 55, he had been number one back in the 30s and 40s. He challenged you to this match as a self-confessed male chauvinist pig, saying that he could beat you. He didn't. You won very decisively. At the moment that you won, how did you feel?

Billie Jean King30:11

I felt so relieved and thought we could go forward, but what happened when he jumped the net?

Billie Jean King30:17

He said I underestimated you.

Billie Jean King30:20

And I think that's what a lot of people feel about women and others and people of color. Don't underestimate anybody, ever, ever. My dad taught us that. Always respect your opponent.

Billie Jean King30:30

And never

Billie Jean King30:32

Ever underestimate anybody in your life. Ever.

Presenter30:35

Uh

Billie Jean King30:35

Use

Presenter30:35

You seemed incredibly even-tempered at the time about the way you were treated. For example, you know, during that match, the Battle of the Sexes match.

Presenter30:45

You know, the commentator would say, Well, there's Billie Jean, she's charging round the court like a man.

Billie Jean King30:50

Oh boy.

Presenter30:50

Yeah. So were it in private? Was that making you mad as hell?

Billie Jean King30:55

Yes, probably a little more angry, but I also have to understand people and how where we're at. And we still have made very little progress really. But you know what? When you read history, you'll think it's gone very fast. But when you live it, it's so slow.

Billie Jean King31:13

And I feel like we've hardly made any progress. Personally, I'm upset because I'm running out of time.

Billie Jean King31:18

But I also know it's up to the younger generations now, and I've always kept telling I've been telling them that for years and years.

Presenter31:23

Was there a moment now I'm thinking now particularly of the time around about 1973 when it did appear as though huge gains were being made.

Billie Jean King31:31

We did have huge gains, but it it just seems like it's like

Billie Jean King31:35

Let's just make everything equal for everybody. Let's just get the show on the

Billie Jean King31:38

I mean, I just go crazy because when you really think about it, but you know, dominant groups know very little about non-dominant groups. Non-dominant groups know a lot about dominant groups. And if you're in a dominant group, you don't understand what we're even talking about because you're so privileged in your life, the way you've been socialized, the old boy network. It's just different. You have the power. You're born into the power just by your gender as a male. And my brother notices it. He can't believe the difference I've had to go through and he's had to go through. But that's growing up with a brother has been very helpful, I think. Both of us seeing both sides of everything. But when you're a non-dominant group, you're the one who has to struggle. You're the one who has to fight because you're invisible, basically. We're kind of invisible. The dominant group's very visible. They have the power. So until they make the changes, they have the power to make the changes overnight. Are we being equal in money and in race or not? And you've got to put your feet to the fire. I have a Billie Jing King leadership initiative now. And that's really, we're trying to get equality in the workplace and any place else we can.

Billie Jean King32:50

And we're young still, we're only four or five years, but we're getting there.

Presenter32:53

What do you say when a CEO says to you, you know, Billy Cheen, it's quality? Don't talk to me about quality. What's your reply? What do you say to them?

Billie Jean King32:58

What is

Billie Jean King33:01

I don't say anything. I say, Okay, I understand, because you're not going to get any place with them. You might later, that it's not going to work. You've got to pick your spots. Just like in a s in in tennis ring, you've got to pick the time you're going to hit a slice or a drop shot or a hard you know, you've got to pick your your fights too, because you can't win them all.

Billie Jean King33:18

I have to size up a person if it's also do I have the energy that day.

Presenter33:24

Yeah. Uh

Billie Jean King33:24

Yeah.

Presenter33:25

Let's have some more music, Billy Jean King. We're going to listen to your sixth. Tell me about this one.

Billie Jean King33:30

Oh my god, I remember listening to this I think in Cardiff actually in Wales when there was a tournament after Wimbledon, but I also met Dusty Springfield through the years, back in the late sixties and early seventies, and I just I loved her music anyway. I got to know her and her brother Tom.

Billie Jean King33:46

Dusty just has a unique voice, I think, that is so recognizable. I think she's one of the all-time greats.

Presenter33:54

You don't have to say you love me, just be close and have.

Presenter34:01

You don't have to stay forever. I will understand. Believe me. Believe me.

Billie Jean King34:09

Believe me, I can help but love you. But believe me, I'll never tie you down.

Billie Jean King34:21

Left alone.

Presenter34:22

With just

Billie Jean King34:23

Yeah.

Presenter34:24

A memory

Presenter34:28

Life seems dead and so unreal

Presenter34:33

That was Dusty Springfield, and you don't have to say you love me so, Billie Jean King. By nineteen seventy one then, you'd become the first female athlete ever to win a hundred thousand dollars in prize money in a single season, and the first tennis player and the first woman to be voted Sports Illustrated Sports Person, crucially, of the year.

Billie Jean King34:50

I did have to share, though, with John Wooden, who is a great basketball coach, who I adored. Oh, you did? Yeah, they just couldn't quite give it up for him.

Presenter34:51

Didn't

Presenter34:54

Oh you did?

Billie Jean King34:58

A woman to be on the. Now, the next person who got it was Chris Everett. She got the whole cover, which I knew whoever was the next woman would.

Presenter35:04

But for you at that moment, the outer was going pretty well, the inner was a lot more conflicted because you were still married at this time, but your private life was highly complicated.

Billie Jean King35:10

Oh, sure.

Billie Jean King35:15

I had asked Larry for a divorce in 1969. Right. He said no.

Billie Jean King35:20

He said no forever. I almost still couldn't get a divorce even.

Billie Jean King35:25

In the 80s, and we remain good friends now, but I still loved him too, though. That's also.

Billie Jean King35:30

Shoot, man, it's confusing.

Presenter35:32

Well, that is confusing of course because we like to put everybody in nice neat rows and we like to know who is what. And there you were struggling with the nature of your sexuality, having come out of a home, as you in your own words said, well my parents were homeless.

Billie Jean King35:36

And we'd like to know

Speaker 135:37

Yeah.

Billie Jean King35:37

Yeah.

Billie Jean King35:43

Yeah, I just it was just so confusing and also in those days and back in the 60s and 70s no one talked about even gay people didn't talk about it. You know when Larry and I were we were owning tournaments by 71 we didn't have any money but we got four other people we went in and we started the Women's Virginia Slims tour and that was a very scary time. It was very high risk. Oh no no it was crazy. It was a really tumultuous time in every single way. The great thing about when you play a match is your sanctuary. When I walk on a court nobody can get an autograph. Nobody can bug me. But off the court, I mean

Billie Jean King36:18

It was a really rough time. People have no idea we're having. I don't know how good I could have been as a player because I was always having meetings. I'm the leader, it's my job.

Billie Jean King36:27

They always elected me the leader. Even in elementary school, the bicycle committee, I was elected the leader.

Presenter36:32

I mean, you said that a couple of n times now. Do you do you think it is certainly the case in your?

Presenter36:37

On court life, that you didn't quite fulfil your potential because you were so busy with the other stuff.

Billie Jean King36:43

I'll never know. I think I'm still so lucky m compared to most players.

Presenter36:43

Never know, I think.

Billie Jean King36:47

39 grain slams? Wow. But.

Billie Jean King36:50

I don't know.

Presenter36:52

Yeah.

Billie Jean King36:55

That was a horror by Meryl Barnett.

Presenter36:56

He's also on the movie.

Billie Jean King36:56

Yes, we can.

Presenter36:57

So this was Marilyn Barnett, who had begun as your assistant and then you had ended up in a relationship, a relationship which which was entirely private because of the times that you were having it in. In nineteen eighty one, she sued you for palimony and essentially outed you to the world.

Billie Jean King36:59

Gun

Billie Jean King37:01

Right you

Billie Jean King37:02

At least it's a

Speaker 137:02

Yeah.

Billie Jean King37:06

Have a yet in.

Billie Jean King37:09

Yeah, it's that.

Billie Jean King37:11

Yes, and I lost all my endorsements overnight. And today that would not happen. That's what's good. And I was 37, I was just ready to retire and have these lifetime deals.

Billie Jean King37:20

So, this is when I was finally going to be able to make some money, some real money. I didn't even make $2 million in my whole career.

Billie Jean King37:27

Okay, so I played until I was 40 years old, and I made one, I think, 1,960. I should have kept playing until I got to 2,000,000, but our generation was brave because we actually. Maybe.

Presenter37:37

Made it happen. But as you were coming to the end of your career, as you describe it, and you had this enormous.

Presenter37:44

Blow of the financial deals being withdrawn, and you also had all the personal stuff to deal with, of stuff that you wanted to keep private being made public. That was terrible. How did you? How did you? I didn't cope well.

Billie Jean King37:46

Sure.

Billie Jean King37:51

That was a good thing.

Billie Jean King37:53

I didn't cope well. It was very difficult. And, you know, I

Billie Jean King37:57

I've had twenty five years of psychotherapy. They saved my life. They literally saved your life? Yeah, literally. 1990s I was getting very, very um

Presenter38:01

They literally saved your life was that literally.

Billie Jean King38:09

despondent.

Billie Jean King38:10

I knew I needed help.

Billie Jean King38:13

And I finally went to an eating disorder place and you have therapy, individual therapy three times a week, you have couples therapy once a week.

Billie Jean King38:21

You have um

Billie Jean King38:24

You have a lot of therapy. You really do a lot of reflection.

Billie Jean King38:28

And that's where I really came to grips with my sexuality. I was only comfortable.

Billie Jean King38:32

By the time I was 51.

Presenter38:33

Well

Billie Jean King38:34

I think Martina Narvatolova, who's also gay, she was much more comfortable, but she's also 13 years younger.

Presenter38:40

And she also said to me when I spoke to her for Design and Distance, when she was outed, she didn't lose any of her sponsorship, and that was not that long later.

Billie Jean King38:42

Get assignment.

Billie Jean King38:47

Oh, I know, but it was just a few months later, actually. But the point is.

Billie Jean King38:51

Martina came to me at Wimbledon and said, I'm going to get outed by this newspaper guy.

Billie Jean King38:56

And I said, okay. And I'd just been through it with Marilyn being outed in May. This is like now Wimbledon, June, July.

Billie Jean King39:02

And she said, What do you th what do you think? And I said,

Billie Jean King39:07

If you're comfortable enough, you need to control your message. And I would come out yourself if you're ready. Nobody can tell somebody else when they're ready.

Billie Jean King39:18

Your body tells you

Billie Jean King39:20

Everything tells you when you're ready. And I don't know, it's kind of a magical moment. I said to Martina, if you can do that, I would control the message and come out and not let this guy out you because that means they control the message. And that's what happened with me. Everybody's controlling the message except me. I had to argue with my lawyer and my publicist for 48 hours straight. And I said, I want a press conference. No, you cannot do that. No one's ever done that.

Billie Jean King39:46

I argued for 48 hours, they finally gave in.

Billie Jean King39:49

All the media were there. I walked in. Larry was there. My parents came up. They didn't know what was happening. It was terrible. Well, they did, but they didn't. I mean, this was all shocking to them.

Billie Jean King39:58

I felt so bad for them and Larry.

Billie Jean King40:01

So I said

Billie Jean King40:03

I did have an affair with Marilyn Barnett, and you could have heard a pin drop.

Presenter40:07

How about

Billie Jean King40:08

This comes back to my parents again. That I own self be true with my mom.

Billie Jean King40:12

And my dad always tell the truth, you know, it's about family values really when you get down to it and you finally have the courage. It was probably in some ways a good thing that

Billie Jean King40:21

I got out of it'cause when will I've ever come out? I don't know. So, you know what? You've got to make the best of a bad, tough.

Billie Jean King40:29

Emotional situation. And what I don't like is how it affected some of the people I love. That's the hard part.

Presenter40:35

Let's take a break for some music, Billy Jean. Um what are we gonna hear now?

Billie Jean King40:38

Well, what's on my list? Is it Elton? It is Elton. Oh my God, of all the people.

Presenter40:39

My little

Billie Jean King40:43

I have known Alan John. I met him two weeks before the King Riggs match in 1973. We were too shy to say hello to each other.

Billie Jean King40:53

So Tony King, who worked for Elton, came up to me and said, This is ridiculous. He's been dying to say hello all night. He's too shy. And I went, I'll never forget this. I looked up at Tony and I went, Ditto.

Billie Jean King41:03

He said, this is ridiculous. He grabs me, he says, come with me. He sits me across the mountain. He goes, Elton, this is Billy, Billy, this is Elton. Start talking. And of course, Elton loves tennis. He goes, Oh, it's you on the telling. So we're off and running. And he says, When are you coming to England? I said, Not until June. He left a message at the hotel. I almost didn't call him because I'm too shy.

Billie Jean King41:23

I want

Billie Jean King41:25

Okay. Hi, Elton.

Billie Jean King41:27

So he comes over and his Rolls-Royce and his 28 speakers and we sit out in the car and just listen to music and talked until like 4.30. We just hit it off. It's like boom. Separated birth, as Lily Tomlin said. You know, we both wear glasses. We're little Chubettes, you know, the whole nine yards. I would have loved to have been a rock and roll star. He would have loved to have won Wimbledon or been in the World Cup. So he got to know me and then we're in the car. We have two different stories here. He said, I asked him, I would never ask him to do anything. He said, I want to write a song for you. And he'd been watching Philadelphia Freedom, which is a tennis team I played on. He had a uniform that Ted Tenling made for him because he made all of our outfits.

Billie Jean King42:05

And he would cheer and go crazy, you know, he's like, come on. And he says, I'm going to write a song. He calls Bernie Toppin. And he goes, Bernie, I'm writing a song for Billy. And I'm going to call it Philadelphia Freedom because Elton came up with this title. In Philadelphia, people still play it all the time. It is their anthem. It went to number one. It crossed over into R ⁇ B and became number one, which made Elton so thrilled. And Lon and I are on the Elton John A.S. Foundation board since inception in 93. So we've stayed friends forever.

Speaker 342:33

Well blue up down to you

Billie Jean King42:36

Uh

Speaker 342:36

Yeah.

Billie Jean King42:37

Shout out.

Speaker 342:37

Uh

Billie Jean King42:39

Abdul Shanuba.

Billie Jean King42:43

Who they are the one that behind?

Billie Jean King42:49

Shine the light, shine the light.

Billie Jean King42:53

Shine the light, won't you? Shine the light

Billie Jean King42:59

Got me afraid

Presenter43:02

Hello

Speaker 143:07

Yes, I do.

Presenter43:12

That was Alton John and Philadelphia Freedom. So, Billie Jean King, you have been with your partner Ilana Kloss for is it pushing forty years now? Is that

Billie Jean King43:20

That was thirty nine this year, I think.

Presenter43:20

Thirty

Presenter43:22

It might reasonably be said that in the Western world the progression of rights and equality for gay and lesbian people is maybe the single biggest societal shift. It is very different for young people now contemplating their sexuality.

Billie Jean King43:37

They have no idea, which I'm so happy they don't.

Presenter43:40

Uh

Presenter43:40

How would you you know, as somebody who has been instrumental

Presenter43:45

Every step of the way in helping it along the path of equality, how would you sum up the gains that have been made?

Billie Jean King43:52

Well, I think it's been the courage of the LGBTQ plus community. I think it's been a one-by-one by one plus lawsuits.

Billie Jean King44:00

Just getting it out there and changing legislation.

Billie Jean King44:03

And um

Billie Jean King44:06

It's all about inclusion. Just let everybody live the way they want. Who cares? As long as they're good people, don't break the law. So there's still countries we'd be killed in. I think there's seven still. And there's about 72 that we'd be in jail for sure. So we have a long way to go. But as far as Britain, as far as America, as far as North America, a lot of the world, it's so much better with marriage equality. But I think it's because of the courage of the people.

Presenter44:34

In two thousand nine, the then President Obama awarded you the Medal of Freedom. That's your country's highest honor. And you were moved by what it was he said to you on that occasion. Just explain to me why it mattered to you what he said and what he did.

Billie Jean King44:47

Well, it's the first time any president's ever mentioned the community, our LGBTQ community, ever.

Billie Jean King44:53

or sexuality ever.

Billie Jean King44:56

and also Harvey Milk, posthumously.

Billie Jean King45:00

Receive the Medal of Freedom that day. And that was the gay rights campaigner. He was a gay rights, he was assassinated.

Presenter45:03

He was the gay rights campaigner.

Billie Jean King45:06

Uh in San Francisco.

Billie Jean King45:09

So that meant a lot to me. And also, I was the first woman athlete, which

Billie Jean King45:14

I find extraordinary see that's what gets me it's good news, bad news?

Billie Jean King45:18

They have awarded so many male athletes, I cannot tell you, because presidents through the years would like baseball or they'd like football or they'd like basketball. So they always made sure that they got the guys that they admired or their heroes. It's amazing.

Billie Jean King45:32

How far women still have to go, and obviously, women of color more, people with disabilities. But I was thrilled that day, and when I met the president a few months earlier,

Billie Jean King45:43

He was twelve years old when he watched the King Riggs match. He said that has really changed his life.

Billie Jean King45:49

And how he raised his two daughters. And that's what's happened from that match when I played Bobby Riggs. Women come up to me and say, I finally got more self-confidence to ask for a raise, for instance. And then I say, more importantly, did you get the raise? They said, yes, we finally got it. We waited 10 years and we should have never waited. And then men come up to me and they're more reflective and a lot of times they have tears in their eyes.

Billie Jean King46:12

And it always gets down to I have a daughter now. I saw that match when I was 25.

Billie Jean King46:16

Oh, God, I remember that. That's 90 million people, and it was so.

Billie Jean King46:21

emotionally charged. So this is what came from it. And every single day of my life, someone's brought up the King Rigs match since nineteen seventy three. But these are the kinds of things that can happen because sports have a platform.

Presenter46:36

Serena Williams, who also has a daughter now, is very careful.

Billie Jean King46:38

Very careful sweeters.

Presenter46:40

is very concerted in her efforts to credit what you did before her on the court and that you built a platform and two different organizations that women tennis players can stand together in solidarity on now.

Presenter46:56

When you look at the women's game, when you look at, you know, we got equality in prize money at Wimbledon in 2007, the last place of the major Grand Stand tournaments together.

Billie Jean King47:04

Venus was very instrumental, by the way, doing that. She met with the All-England Club and had them close their eyes and pretend they were nine-year-old girls.

Presenter47:07

But yeah.

Billie Jean King47:12

And took them through it. Wow. And say, how would you feel to be worth less? I don't know the whole story because I wasn't there. But that's good influence. Everyone is an influencer. But Serena and Venus definitely believe in women's rights. And now that Serena has a daughter, she's going to think even more strongly about it. But both of them have been transcended tennis. They've been amazing. And they're also on the Billie Jing King Leadership Initiative Advisory Board, which we're very fortunate to have them.

Presenter47:40

We're gonna hear your last disc of the day, Billy Jean King. Tell me about this final one.

Billie Jean King47:44

This is

Billie Jean King47:47

We've seen Paul McCartney lately, and Nancy, his wife, is fantastic. But Elton introduced me to the Beatles a thousand years ago, during the seventies, I think. And we just did the March for Our Lives in New York City, and Paul was there and we all did it together. So that's been on my mind.

Billie Jean King48:06

And just seeing him through the years, off and on, he seems so happy. And Nancy's wife said this guy gets up every morning happy. He doesn't take one medication. You know, he's one of those real positive souls. And then I was just thinking about all the beautiful music from the Beatles through the years and how much I've enjoyed them. And of course, I wish John was still here and George.

Billie Jean King48:27

But Hey Jude was a song to help Julian when the parents got divorced, John and his first wife. And I know how much Elton loved John Lennon too. So I don't there's a lot of connections.

Billie Jean King48:39

So that's why uh I know Hey Jude is supposed to comfort Julian.

Presenter48:43

And any time you feel the pain, hate you'd refrain. Don't carry the world up on your shoulders.

Presenter48:59

Oh well you know that it's a fool who plays it cool by making his world a little colder.

Presenter49:13

La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la

Presenter49:21

That was the Beatles and hey Jude. Um I'm gonna do what I do for every Castowi now, Billie Jean King, which is I give you a copy of the Bible and I give you a copy of the complete works of Shakespeare.

Speaker 149:28

Uh

Billie Jean King49:28

Which is

Billie Jean King49:33

Shit, but I heard what Elton said.

Presenter49:34

What did he say?

Billie Jean King49:35

I don't want I don't want

Presenter49:36

Well, that's up to you.

Billie Jean King49:38

No, I'm not going to say that. Are you kidding? I have a choice, right? Yeah. You want them? I think that would be a privilege, yeah.

Presenter49:44

Great. Well, you'll have both of those and on top of that. Well, we'll leave them on the island for you. But on top of that, you get to take one book with you to add to those, to have a library of three. What will your book be?

Billie Jean King49:53

Yeah.

Billie Jean King49:55

I could not come up with a book. It was driving me insane because I like so many. I was worried of how many days I had to be out there. I need a long, long book. And then I thought, no.

Billie Jean King50:05

And I just love this book, Dr. Seuss's Oh, the Places You Will Go.

Presenter50:09

Uh

Billie Jean King50:09

Uh

Presenter50:09

Hi

Billie Jean King50:09

It's a beautiful little book, and it's a children's book. It doesn't matter what age you are. I think it's inspirational, and it's lovely.

Presenter50:16

Okay, we'll give you that then. You're also allowed, as you were cast away on this island, you don't look happy, a luxury item.

Billie Jean King50:23

No, because I want to bring a scrapbook of my family and everybody, and I can't do that because I need sunscreen. Like I have the worst skin in the world. So I'm thinking if could I put a blanket over a towel what if I don't have a towel? There'll be trees.

Presenter50:34

Got it.

Billie Jean King50:36

I don't know. I'd really love that scrapbook of my family just to look at old photos and new photos. And both parents have passed away now, so I'd love to look at them.

Speaker 150:36

Uh

Presenter50:36

A better shape

Billie Jean King50:45

My brother and I, when we're baby, you know, it's so much fun. And then Larry and Lon, the godchildren.

Billie Jean King50:52

Just, oh, people are everything. When we started this interview, it was about relationships are everything. So that's what I really want to

Presenter50:58

Don't take the sunscreen. Take the book. I'd rather have the book. Okay, we're going to give you the book. And finally, if you had to run to save just one track from the waves, which one of these? Yeah.

Billie Jean King51:08

One of these?

Presenter51:09

What? Uh

Billie Jean King51:10

Yeah.

Billie Jean King51:11

I'd have to do Elton. I'm tightest with him. My deepest relationship is with him, for sure, of all these. Philadelphia Freedom is the same. Well, just because of Elton. It's not the songs, it's the person. Don't say that, you might be listening.

Presenter51:16

Yeah.

Speaker 351:16

Uh

Presenter51:16

Yeah.

Presenter51:18

Well just because of

Billie Jean King51:22

It isn't the song, Elton. It's you, baby.

Presenter51:26

Billy Jean King, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Billie Jean King51:30

Well, it's a privilege to be here. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 351:40

Uh

Presenter51:42

I hope you enjoyed my conversation there with Billie Jean. You'll find lots of guests associated with Wimbledon in the Desert Island Discs back catalogue. You can hear Kitty Godfrey, who won Wimbledon Ladies singles twice in the 1920s. She was interviewed by Michael Parkinson in 1987. Last year, I spoke to John McEnroe. And in 2014, Judy Murray, Andy and Jamie's mum, was my guest. In 2012, I was delighted to meet Martina Navratilova.

Presenter52:10

I asked her about her life in Czechoslovakia before she defected to the United States. You were thirteen then when you left Czechoslovakia for the first time for a tournament in the West. What do you remember about that first hit of the West?

Speaker 352:19

Yeah.

Speaker 352:24

Oh, that was in Germany and big cars. It was close to a um American army base. So there were a lot of old Chevrolets and Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs.

Speaker 352:35

And I've never seen a cart like it. I just thought it was amazing. And then the food.

Speaker 352:40

the variety and and things that you've never seen before.

Speaker 352:44

You never sell fresh pineapple? And did it make you s

Presenter52:47

Think, I want a bit of this. This feels good.

Speaker 352:50

I I didn't feel that I was not getting what I needed in Czechoslovakia and was never hungry, I was never cold, but I wanted to kind of experience it all. To this day, if I go to a shop and I see a fruit I've never seen before, I buy it. I have to check it out.

Presenter53:05

And in that same year then you you would have seen I think you did in fact literally see with your own eyes Soviet tanks rolling in to Czechoslovakia. Tell me what you saw and what what you remember

Speaker 353:14

That was the year before. That was 68. I think we went to Germany in 1969. So the tanks came first and.

Presenter53:16

Germany's

Speaker 353:21

It was extremely depressing. It's like you're in jail and you're almost on the other side of the wall and then boom, another huge wall shows up and you know you're never going to get out of the prison. And that's what it felt like. I was at a tennis tournament with my then best friend, but they had a phone and the phone rang in the morning and it was Virka's father calling saying don't go outside, there's tanks in the streets. So of course we went outside and checked it out and you know we're throwing rocks at the tanks, but it wasn't very helpful.

Presenter53:49

You were playing on professional tour in America in 1975 when you sought political asylum. Tell tell me about that. How did that work?

Speaker 353:56

My family, we were actually out at Wumbleden in 1975, the whole family, my parents and my sister, who is six years younger, and we were talking about leaving Czechoslovakia, but my father was not sure of himself. What is he going to do? How is he going to provide? He doesn't speak English, you know. So we didn't do it. And then we went back to the Czech Republic about a week later and there was a tennis tournament there. So we stopped because we knew some people there and we stopped.

Speaker 354:22

At the tournament and they said, Oh my god, you're back'cause rumor had it we defected. But because of that they didn't want to let me out of the country again. The US Open is coming around the corner and they said, Oh, but you're not going to the open because we don't want you to travel anymore. It's like, What? So the Czech Tennis Federation got behind me and they ended up giving me the visa just before the tournament. And that's when I knew I wasn't gonna come back because I never knew whether they were gonna let me out again.

Speaker 154:36

Wait, what?

Presenter54:48

Given the conditions at home, were you free to did you feel free enough to have that conversation with your parents? Did you say that?

Speaker 354:53

Oh yeah, yeah. I spoke to well, I spoke to my father. Did you? And uh he said, Don't tell your mother. And he said, If you're not gonna come back, don't come back if we ask you to. If you stay, stay. Even because they may ask us to tell you to come back, but don't. Why did he want you to not tell your mother?

Presenter55:07

Second. Uh

Speaker 355:08

Yeah.

Presenter55:08

would just break her heart.

Presenter55:12

And so I've never spoken to anybody who's sought political asylum. What actually happens?

Speaker 355:16

What actually happens? What do you do? It was funny because funny not funny, haha, i ironic. I I was in playing the US Open and it was I talked to my manager and we decided after I'm out of the tournament we will do this. So he put he knew what to do. What sort of questions did they ask you then? Well, you know, everything. A bunch of people asked me a bunch of questions if I was a Communist, if my father was a Communist and I assured them that I was not and my father actually got thrown out of the Communist Party because he was not towing the line and you know my parents did like labor camp, not hard labor, but they did both were political kind of prisoners in a way, etc. And so I convinced them that I that really was not a Communist. I want to be number one. That's all I remember saying. I just want to be number one.

Presenter55:59

You said that um the conversation you had with your father was that he said, you know, if we ask you to come back, don't come back, we we'll be saying that because pressure will be put on us. Did you have that conversation with

Speaker 356:00

Conversation

Speaker 356:07

Which one?

Speaker 356:09

We did speak, of course, but they never asked me to come back. So I I was never put in that position. It was just my mom was so sad, you know,'cause we never knew when we would see each other again. It turned out it was four years before I saw my mother, and it was five years before I saw my father and my sister. And how do you think that affected you at the time?

Presenter56:26

Yeah.

Speaker 356:27

I think it affected them more than me, because I was kind of in control of what I was doing. I was doing what I wanted to do. But uh you're at that age where you're ready for the world, you know, I was eighteen, nineteen years old, you go to college and if you don't see your parents for a year, it's not a big deal, except it was been that big I couldn't go back.

Speaker 356:44

It was diff

Presenter56:45

Two.

Speaker 356:45

Good.

Presenter56:46

Martina Navratilova, and you can download her programme and those of Judy Murray and John McEnroe, and a whole host of other editions with Sports Stars, wherever you get your podcasts. Next time, my guest will be Baroness Helen Newlove, who's Victims Commissioner and Deputy Speaker of the House of Lords. Do join us.

Speaker 157:20

This is the BBC.

Speaker 157:24

Hi, this is Lauren Laverne. I've taken control of your podcast Airwaves for a moment to let you know about Late Night Woman's Hour, my podcast for Radio 4. Every week I talk to brilliant, interesting, funny women about life, politics, friendship, love, instinct, feminism, hair, snacks, money, and well, everything really. You know when you talk to your good mates and the world seems to make sense again afterwards? That's what we try to do every single week on Late Night Woman's Hour, and we'd love you to join in. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.