John Motson

John Motson0:00

This is the BBC.

Presenter0:03

Hi, I'm Kirsty Young. Welcome to Desert Island Discs, where every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury that they'd want with them when I cast them away. This is an extended edition of the original broadcast, although the music is shorter for rights reasons. I hope you enjoy the podcast.

Presenter0:42

My castaway to day is the broadcaster John Motson. Only very recently retired, he and his sheepskin coat were for decades one of the best loved and most enduring double acts on T V.

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Over fifty years and more than two thousand matches, he crafted his knowledge and enthusiasm for the beautiful game into illuminating and dynamic match commentary, combining preparation, pace, and pitch in perfect harmony.

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His commentary on twenty nine FA Cup finals and ten World Cups helped to make him the voice of football. But his reputation was built on more than excitedly reporting the twists and turns of a match. Throughout the years he skilfully parried with the irascible manager Brian

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their most legendary encounter resulting in what could reasonably be summed up as a one all draw.

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And back in the spring of nineteen eighty nine, as the horror of the Hillsborough tragedy unfolded,

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He transformed from football commentator to on the scene disaster reporter, adeptly guiding viewers through the shocking scenes as they played out on live T V.

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He says of his half century's work, People often say to me what a lucky man I was to have been paid for doing something I love. They're right, of course, I was incredibly lucky, though I would add, the writer, that there was maybe a little bit of work involved. So welcome, John Lotsner. It strikes me every time that I have listened to your commentary

Presenter2:08

That you are a person who really, really, truly, deeply loves the game. What is it about it that that sets your heart racing?

John Motson2:15

Well, I think it's the background to my early life, really. My father got me into football when I was very young. I picked up the sense of excitement the first time he took me down to the valley at Charlton, which is where I saw my first match. Everything to do with the colours, the crowd, the goals. I got hooked on the game and then began to take a much wider interest in it. I remember sending off all over the country to send me a copy of their programme. I remember starting scrapbooks and cutting things out and obviously the other boys at school were football fans and I guess it is a sort of a community spirit when you get talking with other people. But of course then I didn't know it was going to become a career and I didn't know that for quite some time because my early progress, if you like, in life when I left school was into written journalism.

Presenter3:06

It just occurs to me, as I'm listening to you there, I'm going to have to be careful. I've sort of fallen into your voice.

John Motson3:11

Ha ha ha.

Presenter3:12

You've got the most incredible voice.

John Motson3:15

Well, that that's really kind of you. I d I did get some sort of award. They took everybody's voice into a laboratory, didn't they? And then my pitch seemed to sort of be the one that they were looking for.

Presenter3:23

And they did.

Presenter3:26

Let's talk for a moment about live commentary.

John Motson3:28

Um

Presenter3:28

There's no buffer, of course, between you and the often millions of people that are watching or listening.

Presenter3:35

Over half a century. Did you always have nerves before?

John Motson3:38

Yes, I did. Um they weren't quite as bad at the end, but but but apprehension would have been a better word probably then. I'll tell you what it was like.

Presenter3:44

Well

John Motson3:46

It was living on a knife edge the whole time.

John Motson3:50

My job. I can admit it now, now I'm not doing it anymore. Particularly in the early days when we didn't have all the action replays, and I spent far too much of my time when I look back on it now, and I think it cost me in terms of not, shall we say, embellishing my commentary as well as I could have done or might have done, because well, I was literally on the edge of my seat, but I mean, in a figurative way, I was terrified that something was going to happen in a crowded penalty area, and I wasn't going to be able to be absolutely certain who it was or what it was. And that fear of making a mistake I mean, if you're doing a live England game in the quarterfinal of the World Cup, which I did, and the audience is 23 million, which it was, and they're all football fans, and they all think, probably a lot of them, that they could do the job as well as you could, and just one word out of place, and oh my goodness. It was very much a kind of an uneasy experience in many ways, as well as being a deeply satisfying one if the match went well.

Presenter4:52

When this programme goes out, the World Cup in Russia will have started and England, of course, the only home nation to qualify.

Presenter5:00

You've commentated on ten World Cups. Wh what was the biggest thrill in all of them?

John Motson5:05

Well, the biggest thrill from an England point of view w was it was a thrill while it lasted. It did end in disappointment was when we got to the semi-final of the World Cup in 1990. But I suppose the most vibrant experience I had was when Euro 96 was played here in England because there was so much excitement and it became a festival. And England again, sadly, were beaten on penalties. But it was a great summer and one I'll always remember.

Presenter5:35

On that note, tell me about what we're going to hear. This is your first of your eight tracks today, John Notson. Well, I don't I mean it's obvious what you chose.

John Motson5:42

Well, because Euro 96 had a theme running through it. I mean, the boys who started Fantasy Football League, Frank Skinner and David Bedeal, who I know you've had on your show, they wrote this song, which was really a look back on all England's near misses and what it was like to be a fan when we were hoping we were going to do this and then it didn't happen. And of course it was called Three Lions, sometimes known as Football's Coming Home. And then Ian Brody and the Lightning Seeds picked it up and made it a chart hit. And even Bedeal and Skinner were in the director's box at Wembley singing it. It was just a joyful time.

Speaker 26:19

But I still see that tackle my morrow When Lineker scored Bobby belt in the ball And nobody doubted

Speaker 16:29

That's all the shows.

Speaker 16:33

Jewels remain still gleaming

Speaker 16:37

But he is a f

Speaker 26:40

Never stop retreating.

Presenter6:52

Three Lines with Elon Skinner and the Lightning Seeds, featuring a little bit of your good self, John Watson. It strikes me listening to that. I know that was then, but it could be again. I mean, the truth is that every football match is a great act of hope.

John Motson7:03

Yes, and every England World Cup campaign is a great act of hope as well, isn't it? As we've seen over the years, and uh I think that song just summed it up really. I mean there were highs and there were lows.

Presenter7:14

I mentioned when I was introducing you today the sheepskin coat. I hope you don't mind about that. In reality, how practical a garment was it for the job that you did for half a century?

John Motson7:23

Well, very practical, which was why I bought one after the other. And when I was sitting on the gantry, it just didn't protect the greater part of my body. It protected my knees and my legs because it was full length. And I didn't mean to turn it into a trademark. You didn't? No, that happened by sheer coincidence at Wickham. It was a snowy day, and a match at Wickham was called off at the last minute. The pitch was covered, and I had some sort of cap on, and the snow was covering my sheepskin coat, and I was looking very forlorn. And I had to do a piece to our grandstand programme to say why the match was off. But in the course of that, a very talented stills photographer, Stuart Clark, he took a picture which showed how shrivelled up I was and how bizarre I looked. And that postcard and that picture, as well as of course the television recording, people just latched onto it. And then I was going to grounds and people were saying, where's your sheepskin, Mottie? and things like that.

Presenter7:37

You didn't

Presenter8:23

I wonder then what you made of the comic creation of Steve Coogan's creation, of course, of Alan Partridge, who was probably, to be fair, a composite of all the sports reporters we've ever seen and enjoyed. When he first came along, and I think in the beginning he did now and again sport a sheepskin coat

John Motson8:32

Huh.

Speaker 18:32

Pevol

John Motson8:34

Yeah.

Presenter8:40

What did you make of them?

John Motson8:41

Well, I thought it the old phrase, isn't it? Any publicity is good. I mean, it it kind of highlighted, I suppose, the weirdness of our craft. It would very much attune to sports commentators. But the imitations side of things, certainly my voice, Rory Bremner, made a great thing of taking off sports commentators, myself included, Alastair McGowan. And I used to hear this and I used to think, well, that really does sound a bit like me. And I took it as a compliment.

Speaker 19:00

Yeah.

Presenter9:11

Tell me a bit then, because it's fascinating. I watched a documentary recently which included a section on the amount of preparation that you've done before, you know, a big event, a cup final.

John Motson9:19

No f

Presenter9:20

How much preparation and how much worry goes into that?

John Motson9:23

Well, weeks of worry and days of preparation. The first cup final I ever did in nineteen seventy seven, Manchester United, Liverpool, I'd never done a live match on television before.

Presenter9:35

Right.

John Motson9:35

That's how scary it was. It's no good saying it's just a football match. It wasn't. The camera was sweeping round the stadium and they were picking out personalities and you had to know the name of the chairman's wife

Presenter9:47

The buildup is all part of this.

John Motson9:47

The build-up was all part of it. All the build-up was down to me, how the band were going to form up for the Abibe with me, and the Queen was there for some of the cup finals I did. In fact, you could have gone on doing another three days. But of course, I condensed it, as I have every commentary somehow or other, onto one colourful card with my felt-tipped pens and the things underlined that I thought I would have to bring into the commentary. In that respect, I suppose the match preparation, I tried to do that on the Thursday and Friday, and go to the two team hotels and see the players and get all sorts of personal stuff. There were all sorts of connections that you would not have made or bothered to make in an ordinary league match commentary.

Presenter10:32

Tell me about an

John Motson10:32

And

Presenter10:33

Black Book.

John Motson10:34

Well, Anne's black book, My Wife of 40 years, 42 years, I think, and for most of those, she's kept a record book for me every season. In it, she listed every match, every player's appearance, every goal scorer, the attendance figures, and at the back she kept press cuttings of England teams and very carefully written biro, different colours for different things, a bit like my commentary charts, but far more detailed. There's a lot of efforts gone into them, and we've kept them because it's a tribute to the way she's supported me, and we've been a team.

Presenter11:10

That's what you call a labour of love.

John Motson11:12

I do.

Presenter11:13

Tell me about your next piece of music, then, John Watson.

John Motson11:15

Well, when you asked me about my love of football and where it came from, and I mentioned my dad, a Methodist minister in the inner London mission, had several very challenging appointments and one of them actually was at a place called Plumstead Common. And the first game he took me to was at the Valley. Charlton Athletic were playing Chelsea. I was seven years old, 20 or 30,000 people there. And there was a band on the pitch, live. And there was a song that they played on a very crackly record coming over the loudspeaker, which they played when Charlton ran out. And because Charlton wore red and were nicknamed the Robins, the song was called The Red, Red Robin.

Speaker 211:58

When the red, red, robby comes bob bob bob in a long

Speaker 212:02

A long

Speaker 212:04

There'll be no more sobbing when he stops dropping his hole.

Speaker 112:07

Uh

Speaker 212:07

Uh

Speaker 212:08

Sweet song

Speaker 212:10

Wake up!

Speaker 212:11

Wake up!

Speaker 212:17

Here up the sun is red limb. Love, love and be happy. What if I be blue? Now I'm walking through fields.

Presenter12:28

Rain may glisten, but still I listen for us and us.

Presenter12:33

I'm just a kid again, doing what I did again, singing a song.

Presenter12:39

The red, red, robbin comes bob, bob, bobbin along

Presenter12:44

Billy Cotton and the Johnson Singers and Red Red Robin. John Watson, as you mentioned then, your your father, William Bill, a Methodist minister, your mother, Gwendolyn, you were born to them in nineteen forty five. Yes. Your dad would sometimes preach up to three times, is that right, on a Sunday? What what do you remember of those days?

Speaker 112:52

Mm-hmm.

John Motson13:00

Well, we went to church three times on a Sunday. Sometimes there was a morning service at which he definitely preached. I had to go back in the afternoon to Sunday school, and then he would preach again at night. This was the old-fashioned Wesleyan Methodist tradition, you know. And my dad did seven years at the Deptford Mission on Creek Road. He then moved the other side of the Rotherhythe Tunnel to the East End Mission at Stepney, trying to make life better for people. And we are talking, of course, post-war austerity here. But my dad always put Saturday aside to watch football, and he wouldn't always go to the same place. We would go to Arsenal one week, Tottenham the next, Chelsea, Fulham. Even when we went on holiday, I remember him taking me to see people like Stanley Matthews and Tom Finney play. Did the players interest you? Did you?

Presenter13:45

Oh yes.

John Motson13:47

Well, the colours, you know, what shirts they wore, because in those days, of course, it was much more simple. It was one to eleven.

Presenter13:53

Why is it not like that anymore?

John Motson13:54

Well, because squads have got bigger and the game has become more, what can I say? It's showbiz now, isn't it? And players want to wear number 56 and 61. I mean, I'm not for it, particularly. I think every club should name their players from 1 to 25 at the beginning of the season, and that should be it. But no, it's changed completely. And of course, don't forget in those days there was no commercial side to football. There were no sponsors, no names on shirts, no dining facilities for those that could afford it, no corporate entertainment. I mean, football was just you went, you found your spot on the terrace or in your seat, the teams came out, home team would run out, cheered, away team would run out, some booze. And then it was such a simple game. There were no substitutes when I started watching.

Presenter14:01

The players

Presenter14:44

I'm guessing your mother never came along too.

John Motson14:47

No, she didn't. It wasn't a game that women came to very much.

Presenter14:51

So tell me a bit more about your mamma. What was she like?

John Motson14:53

She was very dutiful in the sense that she saw her role as supporting my father in his work. But I learned a lot of things from her. She had very neat handwriting. If I write something untidy, I have to get rid of it and do it again. She was punctual to the point of precision. Don't ever be late, was one of the things she taught me, even if it meant getting there terribly early, which I sometimes do.

Presenter15:16

What did you do if you were late, for things?

John Motson15:18

Well, I I I I can't remember being late that often and I don't think our social life was that active. I mean it really was three meals a day at home and off to school and and home for lunch and then it was pretty formalized and then there'd be something on it in the church in the evening. We didn't get a television until the mid fifties. I had to go next door to watch the first few cup finals.

Presenter15:38

I remember going to school with the minister's son and always thinking that he sort of was expected to behave a little bit better than the rest of us. Did you have that sense?

John Motson15:44

But the rest

John Motson15:45

Yes, I I had a bit of peer pressure in that respect. I mean, I I was conscious that I was the minister's son and that I wasn't um expected to step out of line. But I still had quite a nice childhood. You know, we weren't spoiled, but we weren't deprived of too many things either, as I remember. And of course football was at the centre of all this, but there were other things. You know, I went to watch a bit of cricket and of course we played in the street a lot then, not just football, five stones and games like that.

Presenter16:10

The

Presenter16:14

And do you look back at it you know, when I hear you talk about the the simplicity and straightforwardness of the game and the relative simplicity of your life, it's sort of got a bit of a golden glow about it. Do you look at it through rose-tinted spectrums?

John Motson16:25

A little bit. Yeah, I do. Well, I do, except that my father then, because he knew he was going to be moving from church to church, he decided he'd have to send me away to boarding school.

Presenter16:35

I want to talk to you about that in just a second. But of course, we want to listen to the music too, John Watson. Tell me about this. It's your third.

John Motson16:41

And funnily enough, this comes about when I was sent to my boarding school in Suffolk. It was 1956 and pop music had just made an impact. Bill Haley and The Comets had just arrived, you know, and Elvis was now a name that was on everybody's lips. And when I got to my boarding school, we were allowed to have a record player by then. And it was a teenage love affair American record. That tells you an awful lot about the things that we were growing into, if you like. And it was simply called Diana, and it was by the one and only Paul Anchor.

Speaker 217:18

I'm so young and you're so old. This my darling, I've been told. I don't care just what they say. Cause forever I will pray.

Speaker 117:32

You and I will be as free as a bird jump in my trees. Oh, please step my leg

Presenter17:50

That was Paul Enka and Diana. It was chosen, you said, John Watson, for those adolescent memories of when you first went to boarding schools at a Methodist boarding school.

John Motson17:57

It was indeed, yes, Culford, Burry Saint Edmunds. My father got an allowance because he was a Methodist minister. I got the fees down even more by passing a scholarship. So I got squeezed in there.

Presenter18:08

And how did you feel about being away from home?

John Motson18:10

Fantastic education, that's the first thing I must say about Colford. It was in lavish grounds. But being away from home wasn't easy. I didn't.

John Motson18:21

take to it very well and I always found a way of having a moody when I had to go back at the end of the holiday.

Presenter18:27

And what would your mother say to you?

John Motson18:28

I think my mother was torn a little bit really. She sympathised that her little boy was struggling a bit. But yeah, it was a strain. But once I got with the other boys, I was okay. Did you play much sports? Well, that was the rub really. It was a rugby school. Rugby in the autumn term, hockey in the spring term, cricket in the summer term, but no football. No football?

Presenter18:50

No football at all.

John Motson18:51

Not only no football at all, but if you just sort of got a few people together with a ball and tried to play an impromptu game, it was frowned upon.

Presenter18:59

Was that a class thing?

John Motson19:00

I don't know about a cl well, yeah, maybe. Although they had had football at Colford before the war, and ironically, as we sit here today, they're just bringing it back again. But in my period, it was, I don't know, rugby seemed to be the man's game, if you know what I mean. Don't forget, this is an all-boys' school, and you know, all the muscular sort of things that you associate with that period, I suppose. What's the phrase, the muscular Christianity, and and rugby seemed to sort of set the pattern really for how the school was run.

Presenter19:32

It was seen as kind of character building, wasn't it?

John Motson19:33

It was, and some of the masters were pretty stern. You wouldn't want to get out of line with anybody, and the punishments were still around, the cane and all that. So, um

Presenter19:43

Did you see the Cane in your time there?

John Motson19:44

Unfortunately not, but I did get sent into detentions for playing football, definitely.

Presenter19:49

And is it true your dad wrote to the school to ask them to take up football?

John Motson19:52

Well, he wrote to the school to say how disappointed it was that I couldn't play football. Yes, he did, and the headmaster has since made that letter very public, and it's caused a few chuckles. Were you good at football? Well, I don't know. I don't think I would have been a footballer, no. But um, nevertheless, um I'd have liked to have had a crack at it at that formative age.

Presenter20:02

What you

Presenter20:12

And I learned that you did you actually start the school newspaper or you simply worked on the school newspaper?

John Motson20:17

The last term I was at Culford uh I started a school newspaper called The Phoenix. I suppose it was a young would be journalist just cutting his teeth and trying to do something off the top of his head.

Presenter20:29

You know, it was in you, wasn't it? You wanted to.

John Motson20:31

It was, yes, because I stayed one term in the sixth form because I was waiting to try to go out into the big wide world and get a job on a local weekly newspaper. That was my ambition.

Presenter20:41

Tell me about your next piece of music then, John Watson. We are on your fourth of the day. Why is this on the list?

John Motson20:46

Well, first of all, it's by Elton John. This is another place where my paths cross with somebody through football. I mean, we do live in a bit of a bubble, football people, and we don't meet the great and the good from the showbiz world that often, although it happens more now than it did. Elton John became the chairman of Watford, which was my local club when I was living in St Albans. Graham Taylor came as manager and they revived this rundown club and took them into the top division and into Europe and to the cup final. And Elton, of course, supported the club financially to a huge extent and still goes to games and I still see him at games. But this one, I've picked it out because it was the song I remember when I joined BBC Radio. This would be the early 70s. This song by Elton John was a really haunting one. And it was Daniel My Brother.

Presenter21:41

Daniel is driving tonight on a plane

Presenter21:48

I can see the red tail eyes Having perspired

Presenter21:56

I can see Daniel waving goodbye

Presenter22:02

God it looks like Daniel

Presenter22:07

Must be the clouds in my eyes

Presenter22:13

Daniel Elton John. John Watson. I want to just rewind a little bit, because I'm interested in that first job that you had in, I think, nineteen sixty three. You were around about eighteen and you started at Barnett Press. Were you very purposefully determined to be a sports reporter?

John Motson22:21

We're running

John Motson22:23

Austin.

John Motson22:28

Yes. Well, when I was sent out on a Saturday, which was my day of fun, if you like, I was sent out to cover Finchley or Barnett. That was my first crack at football reporting, and I got to know the players and the managers. And it was actually the Barnett manager, Dexter Adams. He was the one who said, you know, you're quite good at this. He said, you should try and think about going full-time as a sports reporter. And I went to Sheffield on a provincial daily. That was a very big move for me because they gave me the chance to cover Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield United. Tommy Doherty was the manager at Rotherham.

Presenter23:00

Did you have any dealings with Tommy Doherty?

John Motson23:02

Oh, I knew the doc when he was at Chelsea and he was a character, isn't he? Yeah, I want to know how did you get on with him? Oh, famously. And of course, later in life, he became a very accomplished after-dinner speaker. And I was with him once. I think the doc was approaching 90. And I said to him, you must be slowing down a bit now, not doing so many of these dinners now, Tommy. And he said, oh, yes, he said, I do two a week rather than three. But he had the snappiest wit, the doc. I loved him, actually. And then the BBC were advertising for what they called sports news assistants. And at the same time, in Sheffield, where I was working on the paper, they also launched their first six experimental, as it was said then in quotes, radio stations. Radio Sheffield was one of them. So I started to do a little bit of freelance for Radio Sheffield. The sports editor would be the same man who was on the paper because they couldn't afford much in the way of staff. He'd say to the boys, look, when you come back from Rotherham today, come and do a brief report over Radio Sheffield. No training, no background. I did it. But then I saw this advertisement for sports news assistants and applied here to Broadcasting House. First time I came down, they told me I hadn't had enough experience. Fair enough. But within a matter of weeks, BBC wrote to me and said there are two more jobs being advertised. Would you still be interested in applying? Well, I would have walked there, really. So I came down and I got a job here in 1968.

Speaker 123:30

Yeah

Presenter23:37

Yeah.

Presenter23:50

Yeah.

Presenter24:33

And I want you to try to describe to me when you said just a moment ago, you know, he would say to the boys, I know it was of its time, but it all sounds like a terribly sort of robust male environment, the BBC Sports Department at that time. Would I be right?

John Motson24:44

Yes, you'd be right. There would be some lady secretaries, obviously, and I don't mean that in a demeaning way, in any way at all, but that was their role. But all the broadcasting was done by men.

Presenter24:52

Yeah.

Presenter24:56

Yeah.

John Motson24:56

All of it.

John Motson24:57

And and of course you've been part of the revolution, so you don't need me to tell you how things develop from there on in.

Presenter25:03

But describe that atmosphere to me.

John Motson25:05

Very sporty. Everybody was a fan. Everybody wanted to, you know, get on the microphone and do their football match report or produce or present their programme. We were excited because colour television came in the year I joined BBC Radio. So we were in a new era anyway. And of course, just the thrill of working in Broadcasting House and walking past all the great people who'd worked here and just having that BBC badge on, even if it was figuratively rather than literally all the time, it kind of gave you a tremendous boost to your ego.

Presenter25:41

You say, you know, you would have walked here, and I imagine everybody else who got a job too felt as strong strongly about it. Was it a very competitive, ambitious environment?

John Motson25:45

Yeah.

John Motson25:49

It was. People wanted to get on. Um our editor was a very autocratic, moustachioed Scotsman called Angus Mackay formidable character.

Presenter25:58

You literally couldn't make that up.

John Motson26:00

would never leave his own office. Everybody had to come to him, even people senior, for a meeting. Strange, but he he he had that aura about him. And uh yeah, it was a disciplined environment. You know, if you went out to do a match report, Angus insisted it was sixty seconds. Not sixty two. He'd have you in on the Monday. John, that was two seconds too long. And it was but it taught you. Having been taught the principles of journalism in a newspaper office, I then learned the principles of radio reporting in the BBC sports room.

Presenter26:36

Let's have some more music, John. Tell me what's next.

John Motson26:38

Well, I've mentioned my dear wife Annie, who I met up when she was down here doing her articles in Barnett in the 70s. Didn't know we were going to form such a long and loving partnership, but we have, thank goodness, and therefore I just want to simply dedicate this song to her. It is Annie's song, and it's by John Denver.

Presenter26:59

You fill up my senses like night in a forest

Presenter27:08

Like the mountains in springtime Like a walk in the rain Like a storm in the desert Like a sleepy blue ocean

Presenter27:28

You fill up my senses. Come fill me again. That was John Denver and Annie's song dedicated to your wife of very many years. John Watson, you joined Match of the Day, I think, in 1971. And a year later, you were commentating when the lowly Hereford United took on the mighty Newcastle in the FA Cup. Instead of three minutes of highlights, that's what it was meant to be. Your commentary was chosen to lead Match of the Day, and that was pretty much a moment that changed your professional life.

Speaker 227:53

Uh

John Motson27:53

Um

John Motson28:01

Absolutely. With five minutes to go, Newcastle were winning 1-0 and your three minutes would have been exactly right. And then a fellow called Ronnie Radford scored a goal from 40 yards out. Ricky George, my great friend from Barnet, another huge coincidence, scored the winning goal in extra time. And I think that game convinced the BBC that yes, I was capable of doing a bigger game and I was on a year's trial at that point from radio. But I think that match more or less clinched a contract for me with television.

Presenter28:31

Is it true, I've read this, I find it very difficult to believe that throughout the seventies you'd sometimes be flown north to do commentaries, I mean flown in a plane.

John Motson28:40

Well, this was David Coleman. They wouldn't have put a plane on for me. David Coleman was the big noise at BBC Sport then, and he would fly up from Denham on a Saturday morning in a little four-seater, and I would go with him because while he did the commentary, I did the one-minute summing up at the end. We had some hairy moments in that plane, actually, and it was used again when Jimmy Hill became the presenter. But then I distinctly remember we had a three-day week at some point in the 70s. Britain was on lockdown in terms of petrol and fuel. And of course, Jimmy Hill made the mistake of we had a bumpy ride back from Liverpool in the plane, and he opened up the programme on the Saturday night by saying, oh, my stomach's no signal. We've just flown in a four-seater from... And of course, the whole country, you know, the whole audience, well, I can't get petrol for my car. And Jimmy Hill's flying a private plane for the BBC. It was scandal. And of course, we never flew in it again, as I remember.

Presenter29:38

Yeah.

Presenter29:42

Speaking of scandal well, I mean this wasn't quite scandalous, but I I was enjoying yesterday uh watching some of your vintage interviews, and of course Brian Clough was pretty high up in the running order of those.

John Motson29:50

Kai

Speaker 129:50

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter29:52

I was enjoying one particular one. You were talking to Brian Clough, who, of course, didn't mince his words most of the time, but you saw the sharp end of his tongue on this particular interview. And he was accusing commentators and pundits of being. I wrote it down, I enjoyed it so much. Dogmatic, overbearing, and boring. He said, I think what you do to referees is nothing short of criminal. I mean, he gave it to you with both barrels. He did. You looked very calm. What was going on on the inside?

John Motson30:17

Well, what was going on on the inside is this is good. This is gold. Everything that Cluffy did was gold duster. I knew I had the interview in the palm of my hand. I mean, I don't mean on my part, on the fact that he was talking like he was. I just stood my ground with him, really. I mean, he liked that. He liked the banter to and fro. I once went to interview him about how much longer he was going to carry on managing at Nottingham Forest. And he said, Oh, I've got my ambition, John. I want to outlast you and Barry Davis. I saw that as well. Did you see that? Yeah, it was funny, wasn't it? And there were other times when I interviewed him on the pitch after games, and Liverpool were his sort of bete noir then. And one night they'd had a really good result. They'd drawn 0-0 and they were going to go through, and Liverpool were out. And he seemed to think I still wasn't giving Forrest quite the credit that they deserved. And he just looked at me and he said, One of these days, John, you might decide to recognise that we're not a bad side.

Presenter30:21

Yeah.

Presenter31:14

Um, Alex Ferguson. He once w well, I was going to say he walked out, he actually stormed out of an interview with you. In recent years, things have changed so much, and I'm thinking now of access to the big names in the game, and also the way

Presenter31:28

I think, and I'd be interested to know what you think, increasingly

Presenter31:32

Reporters treat those people. They sort of seem to walk on eggshells. You know, they say, tell us how wonderful it is, being wonderful.

John Motson31:37

Yeah.

John Motson31:38

Yeah, yes, a great result for you today, Jose. Yeah, I know exactly the one you mean. Anyway, look, there's ways of asking questions when, how, why, where, as you know as a highly trained journalist, I'm afraid and I've done it myself at times, so I'm not going to criticise my colleagues except to say I think some of the interviews are a bit too bland.

Presenter31:59

Let's go to some more music then. Um we are on to your sixth. Tell me about this choice, John Watson.

John Motson32:04

Well, I went to the World Cup in Argentina in 1978. A memorable experience for me, the first one I'd ever been to in South America. The country was under the military rule of the junta. The mothers were meeting in the square, you know, outside the Casa Rosada to plead for where their children had disappeared. The mothers of the disappeared, it became very, very, very difficult. And then, of course, the country sort of absorbed the the excitement of the World Cup and the ticker tape came flooding down in the stadiums and suddenly everybody just sort of seemed to find freedom in football for a little while. And Argentina won that World Cup. And when I got back to England, guess what the biggest show in town was? And I always remember my wife had got tickets almost as soon as I got back to go and see Elaine Page in the lead role. And my word, didn't she sing that song well? Don't cry for me, Argentina.

Presenter33:01

Don't cry for me, Argentina.

Presenter33:07

But you're all this.

John Motson33:07

So

Presenter33:09

I never left you.

Speaker 233:11

You all through my wild days.

John Motson33:15

Praise my mad existence.

John Motson33:19

I kept my promise.

John Motson33:22

Don't keep your distance.

Presenter33:30

Uh

Speaker 233:30

And ask for fortune, and as for fame.

Presenter33:38

Elaine Page from the original cast recording of Evita with Don't Cry for Me, Argentina, written by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice. John Lotton says we all know the Hillsborough disaster happened back in 1989. 96 people died, 766 were injured. You went that day to commentate on the FA Cup semi-final and you ended up doing this well in essence, it was real-time reporting as this horror unfolded.

Presenter34:06

It was very interesting to me looking back at your live on-air commentary, as I did very recently, to hear you say.

Presenter34:13

Well, there's something going wrong here, but there is no there's no misbehaviour on the part of fans. As far as I can see, you were saying it how you saw it.

John Motson34:17

And as far as I can see

John Motson34:19

Well, I got to it pretty quickly because of course we'd had Heisel, hadn't we, uh four years earlier and that we'd had the Bradford fire and there was all sorts of speculation about safety and behaviour and from where I was sitting it looked to me right from moment one as a case of overcrowding. So I wanted to get any

John Motson34:40

Any suggestion of crowd misbehaviour out the way straight away and I'm well I'm glad I did but I'm also glad I was right and then of course the whole thing unfolded the players went off we saw the stretchers coming across the pitch we saw it seemed an interminable time before I saw an ambulance but that might have just been on the day it just seemed a long time and then of course as the drama continued to unfold I had to hold the microphone and I had to be very careful not to assume there were fatalities because you can't do that on the BBC until you know so I could only tell part of the story

Presenter35:17

And it was a story that would be told and retold and then told properly eventually after many decades. But I I want to ask about its personal impact upon you, because your wife Annie said that she thought, and this is directly quoting, that your love and belief in football deserted you that summer. How would you describe the months that followed?

John Motson35:21

But I

Speaker 135:22

Uh

John Motson35:35

Well, actually, to be honest with you, my love for football had slightly deserted me prior to that because we'd had so many it was a bad decade, the eighties, and hooliganism was a major part of that. There's no getting away from it. We had a lot of personal injury with fans attacking each other at grounds, and uh we had highsel, we had uh different reasons, obviously, uh the fire at Bradford, and the game went to an all-time low, I thought. And then the tragedy of Hillsborough.

John Motson36:05

Well, I did wonder whether football would get back on its feet after that. But I'll tell you what turned it. We had the 1990 World Cup within a year. England in the semi final, Gaza's tears. Two years later we had the advent of Sky Television and the start of the Premier League and those poor people who passed away at Hillsborough will always be remembered. But somehow out of that tragedy there did come a sort of a new attitude, a freshening up of values. Lord Justice Taylor played a huge part in this. And the all seater stadiums where you could sit down, you were safe, CCTV, and the whole panoply of the game changed for the better.

Presenter36:47

Well, let's look a little bit then at this idea of the values of football.

Presenter36:51

A lot of people who are not necessarily fans of the game, they hear about the salaries and they listen to stories about the egos of players. Everything seems to become bigger and more overblown. Do you think that's a fair criticism? And how do you think those changes, specifically in salaries and the superstars that now play?

Speaker 136:56

Snow.

Speaker 137:00

Yeah.

Presenter37:11

How do you think that's affected the game you love?

John Motson37:14

It is not overblown. You're quite right. I mean, the money that players are earning now, I mean, the millions that they're earning, is out of kilter with, dare I call him the average supporter, the man who goes to a match on a Saturday and maybe take his kids. However, market forces prevail. I don't see how you change it because it's clubs who dish out these wages and they all want to outdo each other. And the other thing is, it's not just over here that we have a captive audience for football. The Premier League

John Motson37:50

is admired all over the world. I mean the overseas television rights for the Premier League will soon, if not they haven't already, exceed the domestic rights. I could name 120 countries and if you went there you'd see replica shirts of Arsenal, Manchester United, Liverpool. You know, so if it's now become a global phenomenon, which I believe it has,

John Motson38:15

I can't see it changing for at least a few years.

Presenter38:19

Let's have some more music, John Watson.

John Motson38:20

This is your seventh? Well, you talked to me earlier about the church and my dad, and of course the cup final has always had one very precious moment, a hymn. It's in the Methodist hymn book. And every time the atmosphere stilled for a moment at about quarter to three on Cup Final Day, we knew what was coming. And it was quite simply Abide With Me.

Speaker 139:11

Those pin was

Presenter39:31

ABIDE WITH ME sung by the Westminster Abbey Choir, conducted by Martin Neary. You haven't missed much, John Motson, but you did miss the twenty fourteen World Cup in Brazil. You were diagnosed with bowel cancer. You had very successful treatment.

Presenter39:46

I'm wondering what got you through that, what helped you to cope?

John Motson39:49

Support of my wife and family, a g first class surgeon. It sounds crazy this, counting the days before I could get out of hospital and go and commensate on my next match. I think I think I only missed four. And just

Speaker 140:00

Really?

John Motson40:04

I I kind of thought, well

John Motson40:07

N not I had it coming to me, but I thought, well, I'd never been in hospital in my life and I'd been very, very lucky with my health, so I didn't feel sorry for myself. But I just wanted to get better and just mentally be strong enough to make sure that that happened without too much of a you know, backward step.

Presenter40:25

And any ill health, of course, is an entirely personal thing, and yet you've chosen to be public about it.

John Motson40:30

Well, I wasn't at first. I wasn't at first when I was in hospital. I didn't go public about it. No, but I'll tell you what it was because of Stephanie Moore, Bobby's widow with the Bobby Moore Cancer Fund, how much money she's raised. You know, well, it's going into the millions now. And I'd done one or two things with Stephanie. And because she'd found me the surgeon in the first place, and because I was in such good hands, I then supported one or two of her events. And that led to me just, I didn't make a great big statement about it, but it just led to me thinking, well, why should I keep this a secret, you know? And even at one point, I sort of made a little appeal to people, particularly men of my sort of generation, you know, get yourself checked out because you never know.

Presenter40:30

Yeah.

Presenter40:34

Okay.

Presenter41:17

You used a wonderful phrase a few records back. You talked about you were talking about Argentina and the women marching for the disappeared, for their sons. And you used this phrase, freedom in football.

John Motson41:24

Yeah.

Speaker 141:24

For their sons.

Presenter41:29

It's a very I mean, you're you're a man for a well turned phrase, but that's a particularly good one. I'm wondering people have as you've retired, people have you've got your BAFTA, you've got documentaries on T V. People are very much telling you what you've meant to them. But I wonder in your words,

Speaker 141:29

It's a very

Presenter41:44

What has football meant to you?

John Motson41:47

Well, it's it's meant a a a lifetime of pleasure. It's been an obsession. Um it's been a a wonderful way to earn a living. It's socially put me in

John Motson41:59

into places and with people that I would never otherwise have met. It's been a phenomenal playground in which to work and also to live. And I can honestly say that in spite of the Bright Club interview, I have loved every minute of it. No, no, I don't mean that. It's just given me something to aim at every week of my life.

Speaker 142:16

Oh.

Presenter42:16

No no no.

Presenter42:22

And so now that the structure that's been so much a part of your life is not there, when you don't have the Thursday and Friday doing the swatting and the Saturday doing the match. H how is life now?

John Motson42:35

Well, it's only just started, of course, and I shan't feel the keenness of it until next season, when those days come up. I'll find things to do. I mean, everybody, well, I say everybody, I hope they meant it. Wherever I went last season, people were saying to me, well, you know, you're very welcome here to come and just watch a match when you're not commentating, which is something which I did anyway sometimes. But obviously, I always had a reason for going then, and now I can just go and enjoy the game and meet the people again. Friends.

Presenter43:03

I'm worried about the island in that case. No football on the island.

John Motson43:06

No football on the island. Well I don't know. Well, I don't know what I'm going to do about that. I might have to take I I didn't think of this actually about taking a D V D with all my matches on it, but I I don't know whether I'd need that reminder or not.

Presenter43:18

We shall come to your luxury in just a second, but for now we must fit in the final eighth disc. Tell me about this.

John Motson43:20

The same

John Motson43:24

Well, if you said to me, name me your favorite artist, it wouldn't even take a second. It's Paul Simon. I've collected all Paul Simon's material from when he was uh with Art Garfunkel in the early days all through the the boxer and

John Motson43:39

Homeward bound, and you know, you could go on forever. And then, of course, Paul Simon, the writer, the linguist, the man who could just touch your imagination with a line from a song. I think the album in which I had the most pride was Graceland, because of course, at that time, a sensitive situation with South Africa, and Paul Simon broke the cultural boycott to go over and play with Lady Smith Black Mambazzo. And of course, the title song Graceland is the one they always play, but I'd just like to have another one off that LP called The Boy in the Bubble.

Presenter44:15

It was a slow day, and the sun was beating on the soldiers by the side of the road.

Presenter44:21

There was a bright night

Presenter44:24

A shattering of shop windows, the bombing the baby carriers was wired to the radio. These are the days of miracle and wonder.

Presenter44:33

This is the long distance call.

Presenter44:36

The way the camera follows us in slow-mo The way we look to us all

Presenter44:43

The Boy in the Bubble, Paul Simon. Uh John, I shall give you some books now. I'm going to give you the complete works of Shakespeare and the Bible, and you can choose one other. What's it going to be?

John Motson44:50

Mm.

John Motson44:56

Easy one this, Capture in the Rye by J. D. Salinger, the great adolescent novel about Holden Caulfield, which I did at college. I just said everything about how I felt at the time really. I mean with so much humour and you know with him thinking how phony everything was and leaving Pensy Prett and shouting sleep tight, you morons as he walked out and sitting with his sister Phoebe by the lake and saying, Where do the ducks go in the winter? It's just so touching.

Speaker 145:11

Yeah.

Presenter45:24

Well, I shall give you that. You will know, maybe, that I generously give our castaways a luxury, too.

Presenter45:30

What would you like your luxury to be?

John Motson45:32

Well, I asked my wife this and she said, Well, maybe a big box of paper handkerchiefs or tissues'cause I get through them so quickly But now I've been talking to you for all this time Kirsty and you've said to me well hang on a minute football's been your life and I'm gonna have to say well I will have to take a portable radio.

Presenter45:38

Yeah.

Presenter45:48

I can't give you that. That's not within the rules. You've got your eight discs, you've got an old gramophone to play them on.

John Motson45:49

You can't.

John Motson45:52

Yes.

John Motson45:54

Yes.

Presenter45:54

But you're not allowed any other form of contact and communication with the outside world. I can't, I mean, it breaks my heart to say it.

John Motson45:58

With the outside one?

John Motson46:00

No, well it's a very good end to the show. I mean I'm going to go back to the paper handkerchiefs and weep myself crazy.

Presenter46:05

You don't you you drink red wine, you don't want a cellar of red wine, do you?

John Motson46:08

Yes, a suggestion.

Presenter46:10

Could wipe your nose on the palm leaves.

John Motson46:12

Yes, that is true.

Presenter46:13

It's up to you, of course.

John Motson46:14

I'll take me running shoes. How about that?

Presenter46:16

Yeah, that's fine. They're yours then. Finally, which one? If the the water was to threaten to wash away the disks, which one would you run to save?

John Motson46:23

Well, I think I'd save three lions, because it would just give me something about football that I could keep.

Presenter46:29

Okay, it's yours. John Watson, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

John Motson46:33

Thank you. It's been a pleasure talking to you, Kirsty. Thank you.

Presenter46:45

Hi, I hope you enjoyed listening to that interview with Mottie. There are a number of big footballing names in the Desert Island Disc's back catalogue, of course. Jackie Charlton, Danny Blancheflower, Tony Adams, Gary Lineker and David Beckham.

Presenter47:00

The former England manager, the late Sir Bobby Robson, was cast away by Sue Lawley back in two thousand four.

Presenter47:07

He recalled the nineteen eighty six World Cup in Mexico, when a certain Diego Maradona scored a controversial goal with his hand.

Speaker 247:15

In eighty six we went to to Mexico and we did very well. The team it was a good team. We got to the last eight. We played the favorites in Argentina. Uh we were robbed. We were actually cheated by the hand of God. I said it was the hand of a rascal.

Speaker 247:31

He was the most uh fabulous player you'd ever seen in your life. He scored a wonderful goal in that particular match against us, but he also cheated us with the hand of God as he um compiled it by punching the ball in the back of the net, and it cost us dearly.

Speaker 147:45

Still feel bitter of the hot

Speaker 247:46

Oh, I do, yeah, because

Speaker 247:48

We just felt if we could get rid of Argentina in this particular match we would eventually would have to meet Germany, I guess, in the final. But um who knows w you know, if that had if that had happened. But it was not to be, so we got to the last eight. Um we came home

Speaker 248:03

But, you know, heads held high, to be honest.

Speaker 148:05

But of course, four years later you did meet West Germany in and there was that penalty shootout that had us all hiding behind the sofas here at home anyway. What's it like for the manager in that moment? I mean, what can you do? The feeling of impotence.

Speaker 248:21

We had by this time developed a very good team, probably better than the eight the nineteen eighty-six team.

Speaker 248:28

We knew it might come to penalties. We practiced it.

Speaker 248:31

I was very confident about the players we had on the pitch.

Speaker 248:34

Lineker, Beasley, David Platt, Pearce, Chris Waddell were the first five. Pearce, in actual fact, was probably the best penalty kicker we had in the squad and we placed him at number four. So when he got to three three,

Speaker 248:49

with Stuart Pierce to take the fourth penalty kick, I was supremely confident.

Speaker 248:55

Good card, tough lad.

Speaker 248:57

kept his nerve, didn't think he could miss, but unfortunately he did. He hit a bit of a straight shot. Keeper went one way and saved it with his legs. That's how unlucky we were. And the ball went over the bar. So we were now

Speaker 249:12

After Germany taking their fourth penalty were now four three down.

Speaker 249:17

With Chrissy Waddle to take the last penalty kick. And Chrissy Waddell was a very confident player. I mean, he could take penalties in training with his eyes closed and still score. And again, I thought Chrissy would score and he would keep us in the game. But on the nights, you know, things get to you, I guess. And he just seemed to run to the ball, did Chris Waddell. He just seemed to lift his head a little bit as he struck the ball and it went over the bar. And so we were out. And we were a fine team. If we'd won, we'd have meet again, funny enough, Argentina in the World Cup. And we had a score to settle with them. So there wasn't any doubt in my mind that had we beaten West Germany on that particular day, we would have won the World Cup for the second time. I was very disappointed. I was sad. I could have cried myself, but I knew I couldn't. Went in the dress room after the match. I mean, the two boys, Waddell and Piers, were inconsolable. The country has to know that.

Speaker 150:11

Sure.

Speaker 250:13

Head down crying tearful.

Speaker 250:17

Couldn't li couldn't look at me, you know. And all I could do was just put my hand on the on the back on their backs, on their shoulders, and just say.

Speaker 250:24

Forget about it. You've done your best, that's all you can do.

Presenter50:27

The late Sir Bobby Robson recalling the nineteen ninety World Cup in Italy.

Presenter50:31

Bobby was also cast away by Sir Michael Parkinson, and both those programmes are available to download for you to listen to any time.

Presenter50:40

Next time, in a bit of a change of mood, I'll be hearing the disc choices of the crime writer Martina Cole. I do hope you'll join us then.

John Motson50:52

This is the BBC.

Presenter50:55

A magic carpet to world events and weirdly wonderful places, with inquisitive, knowledgeable guides, correspondents who witness invasions, the fall of governments, but who'd also like to tell you what it's like getting a tattoo by mistake in India, or buying a T-shirt to the sound of anti-aircraft fire in Libya.

Presenter51:16

From our own correspondent has never failed to delight and surprise me. There's always something new to learn. There's also a depth of experience when someone who spent years reporting a country has to pack their bags and move on, and has a wealth of memories, not only of interviewing the country's President, but of desperately haggling for a decent jacket to wear for the occasion.

Presenter51:39

You'll find from our own correspondent with me, Kate A.D., wherever you usually get your podcasts.