Tuning in…
Tuning in…
Desert Island Discs
Presented by Kirsty Young
Russian chess champion, writer, and political activist, widely acknowledged as the finest player of all time.
Eight records
The keepsakes
The luxury
Telescope? Sure. Um double use. I could watch the stars. And it's I always wanted to spend time, never had enough time. And it's I assume the desert island is in the in the south, southern sea, so there's plenty of stars there to watch. And also you can use it just looking for potentially for for a ship.
In conversation
Presenter asks
Do you miss winning?
Winning is not just moving the chess pieces. You just mentioned making the difference. And that's one of the most valuable lessons from my childhood, from my mother. And I'm very happy with my chess experience, with the knowledge of the game helping me to meet these challenges.
Presenter asks
What were your feelings about the whole enterprise in your first match against Deep Blue in 1996?
If we are looking for the watershed moment in history, actually it's nineteen ninety six, not nineteen ninety seven, because though I won the match, match of the six games, I won three games, I lost one, but I lost game one in the match. And basically, if you want to have this YouTube milestone, that was the moment because the rest... From the scientific perspective, it was just a matter of time. It's like writing on a wall. If the machine could win one game, the rest... Could come one year later, two years later, three years later. It was the biggest challenge ever. I remember the cover of Newsweek, The Brain's Last Stand. I mean, no pressure.
The recording
Timestamps play the recording from that turn
Garry Kasparov
This is the BBC.
Presenter
Hello, I'm Kirstie Young. Welcome to Desert Island Discs, where every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, the book and the luxury item that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away on a desert island.
Presenter
For rights' reasons, the music on these podcast versions is shorter than in the original broadcast. You can find over two thousand more editions to listen to and download on the Desert Island Disc's website.
Presenter
My castaway this week is the Russian chess champion, writer, and political activist Garry Kasparov. Widely acknowledged as the finest player of all time, his attacking maverick style saw him christened the Beast of Baku. It's been a dozen years since he quit the professional game, but the depth of his strategic brilliance has ensured his ongoing legendary status. There may, mathematically speaking, be as many possible chess games as there are atoms in the visible universe, but even as a six-year-old that didn't seem to put him off. That was when he began playing, feeling immediately that chess was the ideal game for him.
Presenter
By seventeen he was a grand master, going on just five years later to become the youngest ever world champion. He maintained that position for the next twenty years.
Presenter
Not content, however, with beating humans, he also took on man's fight against the machine, going head to head with the supercomputer, Deep Blue. He won the first encounter, but lost the rematch.
Presenter
More recently his energies have been occupied with an altogether less cerebral and a good deal more risky pursuit, decrying the leadership of Russian President Vladimir Putin, publicly denouncing what he calls his criminal regime and police state.
Presenter
He says if I look back at my life, I always follow the same algorithm.
Presenter
trying to make the difference whether it's at the chess board or in the surroundings of the chess board or in my ordinary life. And so welcome, Gary Kasparov. When you say ordinary life, I think we can all agree, first off, that you haven't had much of an ordinary life, but I know what you mean from that comment. You retired from competitive chess properly
Garry Kasparov
Thank you.
Presenter
Two thousand five, yeah.
Garry Kasparov
Yeah.
Presenter
Do you miss winning?
Presenter
Winning is not just moving the chess pieces. You just mentioned making the difference. And that's one of the most valuable lessons from my childhood, from my mother. And I'm very happy with my chess experience, with the knowledge of the game helping me to meet these challenges. In the sort of common man's perception of what elite champions do, we understand what athletes do, what tennis players do, you know, we can see it.
Presenter
How does a championship chess player prepare? I mean, you know, you're not in the gym, you're not with the nutritionist. What are you doing in preparation? Oh, by the way, I spend a lot of time in the gym. I would say physically probably the strongest player of my generation. Was that important? Was that a part of it? It was. For me, it was very important because my style was very dynamic. It required a lot of energy. And that's why I could stay on top for so long, beating even next generation, because I had plenty of energy and physical strengths to go through long tournaments. Chess tournaments, they used to be pretty long. So the typical world championship match was 10 weeks. So when I played Karpov. And the big tournaments, two weeks, you know, up to 20 days. And if you are engaged in this competition, it's not just making the moves at the chessboard. It's about preparation. It's about going through these moments of the game that you just played. So it's two weeks of almost 24-7 chess. Trust me, it's nerve-wracking. And if you don't have enough strengths, physical strengths, you will never survive to the end of the competition. That's why I always dominated in the last few rounds, because my younger opponents, they didn't have the same energy, the same passion, the same determination.
Garry Kasparov
Is that
Garry Kasparov
Yeah.
Presenter
Let's go to some of your music then, Gary Kosparov. Tell me about your first disc, a little bit about this and and why it's important to you.
Presenter
Sinatra's voice is distinctive and rich. It's amazing. But it also has a connection to one moment in my life. In 1976, one of my first coaches, Alexander Nikitsin, he traveled abroad and he brought back a disc. That's a disc for a tape recorder. And it had some Western music which was not available normally in the Soviet Union and it had many of Sinatra thongs. For me it was just the moment of revelation. I actually had some difficulty of selecting one of the thongs, but then I decided Strange in the Night because it's more romantic and it's also one of the favorite thongs of my wife.
Speaker 2
Let's hear it.
Speaker 2
Strangers in the night
Speaker 2
Exchanging glances, wandering in the night.
Speaker 2
What were the chances we'd be sharing love?
Speaker 2
Before the night was through
Speaker 2
Something in your eyes was so inviting. Something in your smile
Presenter
That was Frank Sinatra and Strangers in the Night. You had a smile right across your face there, Gary Kasparov, when you were listening to that. You have a wonderful turn of phrase. You once described the IBM computer Deep Blue as a ten million dollar alarm clock. That made me laugh. What were your feelings about the whole enterprise in your first match, which was in 1996 against it?
Presenter
It was not the first time I met a computer at the chessboard. This was the first time where Machine met the world champion at the chessboard under normal tournament conditions. That was a real seven hours game. And
Garry Kasparov
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Garry Kasparov
Well
Presenter
If we are looking for the watershed moment in history, actually it's nineteen ninety six, not nineteen ninety seven, because though I won the match, match of the six games, I won three games, I lost one, but I lost game one in the match. And basically, if you want to have this YouTube milestone, that was the moment because the rest
Presenter
From the scientific perspective, it was just a matter of time. It's like writing on a wall. If the machine could win one game, the rest.
Presenter
Could come one year later, two years later, three years later. It was the biggest challenge ever. I remember the cover of Newsweek, The Brain's Last Stand. I mean, no pressure. After this match, I played a few other computer matches. Again, not as publicized, and I did better than in this match, but it's not something that changed everything dramatically, because what we learned from that match, and that's why I said it's as intelligent as an alarm clock, because contrary to the expectations of founding fathers of computer science, like Alan Turing, Claude Shannon, Norbert Wiener, the machine that prevailed in the game of chess was a brute force. Well, yes, let's just talk for a moment about that brute force. You know, this, as you've described, the brute force of computer calculation. How do you think it has changed the modern game in ways that somebody like me can understand? Yes, but it's what I can tell by learning from all these experiences is that if we are dealing with a closed system, and any game is a closed system because we have the rules and it's quantifiable, machines will do it better.
Garry Kasparov
Understand.
Presenter
Because it's not about solving the game, it's about winning. Winning means prevailing over humans, and even the best humans were doomed to make mistakes. It's just it's it's inevitable. Let's have some more music, Gary Kosparov. Tell me about the second piece we're going to hear today. It goes all the way back to my childhood. I just somehow the music
Presenter
Just enchanted me. But then also, it's connected to one of my favorite movies, Amadeus.
Presenter
It's an easy flow, but it's this depth and strengths, and it's a sign of genius. And Emma Dels is a great story. Somehow, I just could make a projection to my life because I could make moves with the same easy flow. And that's this music reminds me of the touch of genius, where you can just do simple things, but it ends up with a masterpiece.
Garry Kasparov
Go see that.
Presenter
That was part of the first movement from Mozart's Symphony No. 40, performed by the Berlin Philharmonic, conducted there by Herbert von Karihan. So, Gary Kasparov, you were born in Baku in in 1963 in Azerbaijan. So your dad was Jewish, your mum was Armenian. I'm wondering what sort of parents it takes to make a...
Garry Kasparov
In Azerbaijan.
Presenter
Grandmaster Chess Champion, tell me more about your appearance.
Presenter
I have very vague memories of my father. He died when I was seven. And what was his job? What did he do? He was chemical engineer. So and my mother was also engineer, so she worked uh in it's an institution that uh build uh equipment for oil industry in Baku.
Garry Kasparov
I
Presenter
When I was introducing you today, I didn't know whether to say you were five when you started playing or you were six. You were around about five and a half, actually. Nobody knows. I mean, there was no Twitter to report it.
Garry Kasparov
And a half actually
Presenter
So you you were watching your parents try to solve a little chess puzzle in the newspaper, right? Yes, that's uh most likely, yes. And I was so fascinated by these mysterious pieces, you know, the little board with uh sixty four squares. And uh my father immediately picked it up because
Garry Kasparov
Yeah.
Presenter
Everybody on his side was somehow connected to music. So, my grandfather was in charge of the programs in Philharmonics in Baku. My father also graduated in class of violin. My uncle, he's a composer. And my father, when he just realized that I was so engaged in the game of chess, his last decision in his life was he told my mother, already he had leukemia, he knew he was dying. He said, No music. He has a different kind of mind. Send him to chess. And he died of leukemia? Yeah, at the age of 39. 39.
Garry Kasparov
Are they suddenly
Presenter
A very young age to die, and as you say, you were only seven. Were you an only child? Yeah, and my mother made a big decision not to remarry and spend her life for her son. I will talk about that in a moment, but I was interested to read, and I'm interested to know if it's true, that your father decided that he did not want you to see him in the final weeks of his life. Yes, that's what my mother told me. Probably wanted me to remember him still being strong. He was physically very strong, never had any kind of sickness, so, and I think that was the right decision. My memories are just, you know, always connected to him smiling, being strong, caring me, and just reading with me. So, it's all positive, not the gloomy, dark moments of a dying man. We're coming back, of course, but we need to fit in the music, Gary Kasparov. This third piece you've chosen, Chopin, tell me about why it's important to you.
Garry Kasparov
Yes, life.
Presenter
It's a revolutionary tude. It makes me feel stronger because it's it's like a challenge. It's not just name revolutionary tude, it's I hear the music of change. So it is the you have to make the difference.
Presenter
That was Chopin's Etude de Opus 10, number 12, performed there by Vladimir Ashkenazi. You said an extraordinary thing just before the last piece of music. You were talking about your mother, and you said that she decided that she would not remarry, and she decided that she would devote her time and her energies to me and my chess. That's incredible. She didn't know yet. Chess looked promising, but it was just about her son. So that was her big decision. You're a parent. What do you make of that? The fact that she decided that it would be you and only you that would be the focus of her adult existence. That's an extraordinary decision. It is an extraordinary decision, and that's why I always feel very close to her. It's a tough time now, because since 2013, February 2013, almost five years, I had to live outside of Russia for obvious reasons, because the trip to Russia will be for me a one-way ticket, as long as Putin stays in power. And she's still in Moscow, but we talk every day. There are a few rules I don't dare to break. When my plane takes all four lands, I must call her. It could be four in the morning in Moscow, midnight, whatever at the time. And she's eighty now. She actually made some other important decisions because she prevented me from just getting into this big chess too early. So she just tried to sort of limit this engagement to make sure that when I meet challenges, I will be mature enough. So from early days, she was like a top manager of the team. Was she tough? Was she your protector?
Garry Kasparov
Okay.
Garry Kasparov
In my chest.
Garry Kasparov
It's the
Garry Kasparov
It isn't screwed.
Garry Kasparov
Yeah.
Garry Kasparov
Oh shit.
Presenter
There was a big moment, I learned about it later, when I played Anantoli Carpo the first match and it in 1984. And it's at the beginning it was a total disaster. I lost four games out of first nine and uh the winner had to take six games. So Carpo was so close to a big, big triumph. And uh it's my game just it was
Presenter
It looked bleak, so just I couldn't actually find the right algorithm. So it's just somehow I failed to show what was my real strength. And some of my coaches have been influenced by the outsiders, and they tried to talk to my mother to convince me to give up. So basically to stop playing and just, you know, to resign to avoid the total disaster because losing six to nothing would be too painful. And she said, uh-uh, no, he has to go through everything. So just if this is his fate, to lose the match so badly, let's see what happens with him because this is the only way to temper his character.
Presenter
Some more music, Gary Kasparov. Tell me about this. We're going to listen to your fourth. Why have you chosen this one? This is from Phantom of the Opera. I'm not afraid to be accused of being a populist, but it also has a very important personal note to me. It's the first musical show I watched with my wife, so in 2003 in New York. Now it's like our sort of our family music because our daughter somehow she picked it up and she has been trying to play it and now she can do it. It's a bit scary and it starts this suspense. And every time I hear, just you know, it brings me back to these great moments of our family life. If we have to choose sort of a musical motto for our family, it'll be Phantom of Daughter.
Presenter
The overture to Phantom of the Opera, composed by Andrew Lloyd Webber and performed by members of the original London cast recording. Gary Kasparlov, at the time when you started travelling the world because of your chess, you would have been how old? Thirteen. What struck you about the West as a youngster?
Presenter
I can hardly describe my feelings when I
Presenter
was chosen to represent Soviet Union in the World Championship when I was 16. I was 13 in 1976. Of course they didn't let my mother to travel with me. They didn't? No, because it's family and the rules were very strict because the family could stay. So you had to have a reason to come home. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. That's the way the communist regime worked. I was probably the only person in just definitely in my school, probably in my street, maybe in my district in Baku, who traveled to the capitalist country. I could see that life was different. It's not so much of this consumer abundance, but more of just...
Garry Kasparov
So you had to have a reason.
Garry Kasparov
Yeah, exactly.
Presenter
It's a different air, freedom. So that's something the people behave differently. That's actually what I uh what I just instinctively I picked it up. So Muhammad Ali had Joe Frazier, you had Anatoly Karpov, and he became you know, your matches between each other became legendary. I want you just for a moment to take me to
Presenter
winning against him in the World Championship and to the particular day and moment. What was going on not in playing the moves, but in your emotions at the moment of winning?
Presenter
It's very hard to squeeze everything in just in few words because the title of World Chess Champion in the Soviet Union, it was more than just a world champion. It was something absolutely unique.
Garry Kasparov
Yeah
Presenter
Many people who supported me they said it's the moment that Garry Kasparov has won
Presenter
This game and won the title and became the world champion, and Karpov lost, they realized that the whole system may one day collapse. Because, explain that to me. Because Karpov was, he became so close to the establishment. It's not only close to the establishment, it's part of the establishment. And the fact is that he was received by Brezhnev and he got all the awards, and it was the system.
Garry Kasparov
Yeah, and then the fact
Presenter
And I was not a rebel, so I just played by the rules. I didn't want to be seen as somebody who was challenging the system. But he was a Russian world champion, darling of the system, received by the top officials, including Leonard Bredin himself. And I was half Armenian, half Jewish from Baku, though enjoying support of local party officials who gave me some protection to organize preparation. I mean, not to be deprived of coaches and certain help that I needed to challenge Karpov. But still, it was a, I wouldn't say David and Goliath, but it's there. And I didn't feel it so distinctively as many other people, all the people, because I heard it. And only many years later, I just realized that it's a moment of revelation. Karpov lost.
Presenter
Maybe the whole system.
Presenter
Who knows? Maybe the whole system could one day
Speaker 3
Uh
Presenter
Go bust.
Presenter
Let's take a break for some music, Gary Kasparov. Tell me about your next one. This is your fifth. That's connected to these matches. It's Vladimir Vysovsky. This song, I'm not sure the translation is correct, Capricious Horses, but let's. Or wild horses? Is that? It's a combination. It's wild horses, capricious horses, untamed horses. So that's the... But it's about the challenge. And I, for the first three matches with Karpov, the 48 games in the first match, the unlimited match, 84, 85, then second match, 24 games, and another 24 games in 1986. Before each game, I listened to the song because it just charged me with energy.
Garry Kasparov
Are wild.
Garry Kasparov
It's a it's
Presenter
Even when I was losing so badly, I still could uh get some some hope. That is it's you're always just one step away from abyss. That's your challenge. If you survive, one day you'll prevail.
Speaker 3
Dolly Brive?
Speaker 3
Panat propies to you.
Speaker 3
Pasalmamu.
Speaker 3
Bakarai.
Speaker 3
Yakanye
Speaker 3
Svay khn nagai kayu, stigayu.
Speaker 3
Baganya you.
Speaker 3
Stotta was the whole.
Speaker 3
Munyamala
Speaker 3
Theater for you.
Presenter
That was Vladimir Vosotsky and Koni Privedlievya. How did I say? Priviedly. I got it the wrong way around. Anyway, it means untamed or capricious horses. Wild horses.
Speaker 3
Prevent Louisia.
Garry Kasparov
Yeah.
Presenter
In January of 1990, a very important thing happened in Azerbaijan. It was a result of ethnic violence between the Armenians and the Azerbaijanis. And you and your family, as I understand it, were forced to flee. What do you is that accurate, first of all, that you were forced to flee? Because that's what I read. You chose to flee.
Garry Kasparov
Oh yeah.
Presenter
Armenians were wiped out from the city of Baku. We don't know how many, probably a few hundred have been killed, and tens of thousands had they were simply expelled. So we had to leave the town. So it was a very tough moment because I had no plans of leaving Baku, but I knew there was no choice. And I had to take as many people as I could with me. So we just moved to Moscow. It's not strictly democratic, but it is a relatively stable place now. Do you ever go back to Azerbaijan?
Garry Kasparov
Uh
Presenter
No, you said not democratic and stable. It's a dictatorship. I said it was stable and it was not democratic. Oh, yeah, it's a family dictatorship. And I've... Look, I have no intention of just going there because I was just born there. Because at the end of the day, it's... I wish I could go there one day. I could take my family actually to show the place where I was born. But the city is not... It's not just stones. Though, for instance, Armenian Cemetery has been desecrated. So that's the. My father's the Jewish cemetery is still there. So it's just in good shape. I saw the pictures. So some people brought it to me after Chess Olympic in Baku in 2016. So they went just to see the place where I was born. Now it's a store of the woman close there. And of course, no mention that I was born in Baku. Does that matter to you?
Garry Kasparov
I got it.
Speaker 2
But it was stable and it was not demo.
Garry Kasparov
Democratic.
Garry Kasparov
Uh
Speaker 2
Does it?
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Presenter
No, it's just it's not, but it's just it's uh there were probably three people with world fame who were born in Baku, Rostropovich, uh Landau, the Nobel um Prize winner, and myself. And the first two of course properly reflected in the history of the town. And uh I am not there because I'm Armenian.
Presenter
I'm fine, so just it's. Where are you fine? That would matter to me. Did a lot of people still remember where I was born and what I did for my native town? Because now Azerbaijan is one of the leading chess powers, and that started with me, with my ascension and my rise to the top. So that's a kind of cultural legacy then that you have to do that. Yes, exactly.
Garry Kasparov
Aren't you
Garry Kasparov
Yeah.
Presenter
I believe I will visit the place one day because I
Presenter
I'm a good scholar of history. All dictators, they're doomed. And uh this dictatorship will not last forever. And uh when we see a different uh political landscape, I'm sure I'll take a trip down south. Let's have some more of your music. Um we are on now your sixth piece. Tell me about this, uh Gary Kasparov.
Presenter
It's sheer energy. It's blood-boiling. No special connection to my family, my professional life, but it makes me feel more energetic.
Presenter
That was the prelude from Bize's Carmen, performed there by the Berlin Philharmonic, conducted by Sir Simon Rattle. So, Gary Kasparov, since retiring then from the professional game, you've used your platform of world renown to draw attention to what you believe are the failings of the regime and the Russian President himself, Vladimir Putin. Your straightforward accusations then, just to sum it up, is that it is a criminal regime and it is a police state in essence. Would that be fair?
Presenter
It was fair, now it's much worse. It's a one-man dictatorship. It was a police state ten years ago, and I've been shouting in the desert, trying to bring attention to the fact that this regime was on the way of turning into an open dictatorship that would go after other countries. That's what happened with other dictators. They destroyed opposition in their own countries. They were in charge, in total control, but eventually they all needed new targets to justify their endless stay in power. And I knew that Putin would go elsewhere first to the neighboring countries, former Soviet republics, and eventually he would defy the biggest, the most powerful countries in the world. And that's why what's happened during US elections and many elections in Europe and all these now renowned facts of Russian interference has been predicted. I don't want to. I'm tired saying I told you so, and I just want one day just to be proven wrong. You are, of course, no longer living in Russia. You live now in exile in New York with your wife and family. But for many years, you did put yourself literally on the front line of protests. You served short spells here and there in prison for taking part in demonstrations. What do you see your role now as from the outside to try to get what you believe to be justice for the people in your country? It's very important to explain, and unfortunately, I have to repeat it time and again, the true nature of Putin's regime. Just stop using the words elections, stop pointing out at polls, because you never know what people think, because many of them have this genetic fear of expressing their views. They were born in the Soviet Union. And speaking openly about a KGB dictator.
Garry Kasparov
Justice for the people in
Presenter
It just goes against their life experience. And also, if you have one restaurant in town serving only one dish, this dish is popular.
Presenter
Do you worry yourself and uh for your own safety? I mean, of course, um famously uh people who make enemies of uh Vladimir Putin come to very sticky ends. We only have to think of the journalists who left. Especially of those who left Russia, like my great friend and ally, late Boris Nemsov, who actually advised me to leave the country, but
Garry Kasparov
Oh yeah, that's a long list.
Garry Kasparov
Some chartless who's budget.
Speaker 2
Yep.
Presenter
It's tragic that he was so he was so proud and so uh he felt so tough. And uh as a former deputy prime minister under Yeltsin, many believed Yeltsin's potential successor.
Presenter
And he stayed there and he was murdered just in front of the Kremlin in February 2015. It is a long line of people who have met their ends, who have openly criticized him. Some of them even in this town, in London, yes. I imagine you're not drinking tea at an anonymous house. No, I don't. I don't trade drink tea with strangers. I live in New York. I have a sub list of countries I wouldn't visit to make sure that I'm not running too much risk. But if you're asking me about my safety, would it help?
Garry Kasparov
I do.
Garry Kasparov
At the end.
Garry Kasparov
Indeed.
Garry Kasparov
No, I don't know.
Garry Kasparov
My safety
Presenter
At the end of the day, it's the only good answer. Would it help? I do what I believe is right. I will keep doing that. I'm here talking to you here in the studio London. I live in New York, so I travel mostly in the free world. There's still many people in Russia who are the front line and they have no protection at all. So look, I think I'm the only one who can help by just talking about Putin's regime and explaining that the keys to the freedom of my country are here in the banks and in financial institutions that are keeping and investing these enormous fortunes of Putin's cronies and henchmen.
Presenter
Gotta fit in the music, Gary Kasparov. So let's go then to your seventh piece. Just tell me about this choice. Why is it in your list? Going back to our political discussion, I always recommend people to read Mara Putson, Godfather, if they want to know more about Putin. And.
Presenter
It's one of my favorite movies.
Presenter
Part of The Godfather Waltz from the original film soundtrack composed by Nina Rotta and conducted by Carlo Savina. Do you play with your kids? Are they interested in jazz? No, let's see about the little one. Two elder kids, they had no interest. The eleven-year-old daughter, so she expressed some interest, but uh I probably have to uh to take this criticism so uh from my wife that I didn't do enough to actually encourage her to do more. Sh she knows how to play, she likes the game, but she's more engaged in reading and in music.
Garry Kasparov
Just
Presenter
That would you like to have a little chess champion? Would you want that life for one of your kids? I have to watch their kids because it's always the next generation.
Garry Kasparov
Do you want that life for one of your kids?
Garry Kasparov
It's always the next generation.
Garry Kasparov
I almost
Presenter
You're a man clearly of many facets and many talents, but I don't know how good you are at the practical stuff of life, and you know that I'm about to cast you away on a desert island. Will you be able to survive? Are you a practical person? No, I'm not a very practical person, but I'm I'm a survivor. So I w I will have to learn. So as the if you throw me there, so I will again I'll do my best to learn how to stay alive. Tell me about your eighth disc then, your final one. Why have you chosen this?
Garry Kasparov
Yeah.
Presenter
A few reasons. Actually, one of them is that it's not exactly the desert island, but this is about survival. It's Morricone, I know Morricone. And this music is... I could feel this deep connection with the movie itself. I've chosen the main theme from The Professional, the movie 1981 with Belmondeau. Don't mix with 1994, The Leon. I think it's the best Belmondeaux movie, just with great characters, and it feels so contemporary. But this is one of the movies not typical where you don't have a happy end, but it's about the main character doing everything perfectly and still dying at the end because he went against the system. But you could be truly impressed by his determination to do what he thought was right.
Presenter
Key Mai, composed by Enio Morricone. It's time now, as I do with every castaway Gary Kasparov, for me to give you some books. I give everybody uh the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to take to this little island, and they get to choose one other book to take with those two. What is your book, Good? Ah, Bulgagovsky, that's easy.
Garry Kasparov
Yeah.
Garry Kasparov
Ah, we'll go to that.
Presenter
Okay, and a luxury too.
Presenter
Telescope? Sure. Um double use. I could watch the stars. And it's I always wanted to spend time, never had enough time. And it's I assume the desert island is in the in the south, southern sea, so there's plenty of stars there to watch. And also you can use it just looking for potentially for for a ship. Okay, well for the practical use that's your business. And I'm going to pretend you didn't tell me that. But for the stars we will certainly... No, no but that's but again it says I'm I'm trying to be practical. I can't blame you for that. You've chosen eight disks today. If the the seas were to threaten to wash them away, which one would you run to save above all others?
Speaker 2
I
Presenter
Motor
Presenter
It's yours. Gary Kasparov, thank you much for letting us hear your desert island activity. Thanks for inviting me.
Garry Kasparov
Thanks.
Presenter
I hope you enjoyed this edition of Desert Island Discs with Gaddy Kasparov. You'll find more interviews with sports stars, scientists, musicians and artists, and more at bbc.co.uk slash desertisland discs.
Garry Kasparov
This is the B B C.
Garry Kasparov
Hi, I'm Rihanna Dillon, and I just wanted to let you know about another podcast that I think you might like. It's called Seriously, and twice a week we bring you incredible documentaries from BBC Radio 4. We like to say they're seriously interesting stories told a little sideways. From politics to fashion, arts to current affairs, I'm sure there will be something that takes your fancy. So join me there. Just search for Seriously in your favorite podcast app.
Presenter asks
You said that your mother decided not to remarry and devoted her life to you and your chess. What do you make of that decision?
There was a big moment, I learned about it later, when I played Anantoli Carpo the first match and it in 1984. And it's at the beginning it was a total disaster. I lost four games out of first nine and uh the winner had to take six games. So Carpo was so close to a big, big triumph. And uh it's my game just it was... It looked bleak, so just I couldn't actually find the right algorithm. So it's just somehow I failed to show what was my real strength. And some of my coaches have been influenced by the outsiders, and they tried to talk to my mother to convince me to give up. So basically to stop playing and just, you know, to resign to avoid the total disaster because losing six to nothing would be too painful. And she said, uh-uh, no, he has to go through everything. So just if this is his fate, to lose the match so badly, let's see what happens with him because this is the only way to temper his character.
Presenter asks
Take me to the moment you won the World Championship against Karpov. What was going on in your emotions at that moment?
It's very hard to squeeze everything in just in few words because the title of World Chess Champion in the Soviet Union, it was more than just a world champion. It was something absolutely unique. Many people who supported me they said it's the moment that Garry Kasparov has won this game and won the title and became the world champion, and Karpov lost, they realized that the whole system may one day collapse. Because, explain that to me. Because Karpov was, he became so close to the establishment. It's not only close to the establishment, it's part of the establishment. And the fact is that he was received by Brezhnev and he got all the awards, and it was the system. And I was not a rebel, so I just played by the rules. I didn't want to be seen as somebody who was challenging the system. But he was a Russian world champion, darling of the system, received by the top officials, including Leonard Bredin himself. And I was half Armenian, half Jewish from Baku, though enjoying support of local party officials who gave me some protection to organize preparation. I mean, not to be deprived of coaches and certain help that I needed to challenge Karpov. But still, it was a, I wouldn't say David and Goliath, but it's there. And I didn't feel it so distinctively as many other people, all the people, because I heard it. And only many years later, I just realized that it's a moment of revelation. Karpov lost. Maybe the whole system. Who knows? Maybe the whole system could one day go bust.
Presenter asks
Your straightforward accusation is that the Russian regime is a criminal regime and a police state. Would that be fair?
It was fair, now it's much worse. It's a one-man dictatorship. It was a police state ten years ago, and I've been shouting in the desert, trying to bring attention to the fact that this regime was on the way of turning into an open dictatorship that would go after other countries. That's what happened with other dictators. They destroyed opposition in their own countries. They were in charge, in total control, but eventually they all needed new targets to justify their endless stay in power. And I knew that Putin would go elsewhere first to the neighboring countries, former Soviet republics, and eventually he would defy the biggest, the most powerful countries in the world. And that's why what's happened during US elections and many elections in Europe and all these now renowned facts of Russian interference has been predicted. I don't want to. I'm tired saying I told you so, and I just want one day just to be proven wrong.
Presenter asks
Do you worry for your own safety, given that people who make enemies of Vladimir Putin often come to sticky ends?
My safety... At the end of the day, it's the only good answer. Would it help? I do what I believe is right. I will keep doing that. I'm here talking to you here in the studio London. I live in New York, so I travel mostly in the free world. There's still many people in Russia who are the front line and they have no protection at all. So look, I think I'm the only one who can help by just talking about Putin's regime and explaining that the keys to the freedom of my country are here in the banks and in financial institutions that are keeping and investing these enormous fortunes of Putin's cronies and henchmen.
“Winning is not just moving the chess pieces. You just mentioned making the difference. And that's one of the most valuable lessons from my childhood, from my mother.”
“If the machine could win one game, the rest could come one year later, two years later, three years later. It was the biggest challenge ever. I remember the cover of Newsweek, The Brain's Last Stand.”
“She said, uh-uh, no, he has to go through everything. So just if this is his fate, to lose the match so badly, let's see what happens with him because this is the only way to temper his character.”
“Karpov lost. Maybe the whole system. Who knows? Maybe the whole system could one day go bust.”
“It was fair, now it's much worse. It's a one-man dictatorship. It was a police state ten years ago, and I've been shouting in the desert, trying to bring attention to the fact that this regime was on the way of turning into an open dictatorship that would go after other countries.”
“I do what I believe is right. I will keep doing that. I'm here talking to you here in the studio London. I live in New York, so I travel mostly in the free world.”