Sheryl Sandberg

Speaker 10:00

This is the BBC.

Presenter0:02

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons, the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:13

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter0:39

My castaway this week is Cheryl Sandberg. She runs Facebook, the most popular social network in the world, and has made her name and her fortune, transforming that company into a four hundred and thirty two billion dollar business.

Presenter0:53

She's an author too, and back in twenty thirteen, her best-selling book, Lean In.

Presenter0:58

was a how to Bible for females interested in succeeding, chivvying women to strive for more power and more influence. It was full of handy hints for beyond the boardroom, too, including this little gem You can date whoever you want, but you should marry the nerds and the good guys.

Presenter1:15

Before Facebook she had a big job at Google and before that she was chief of staff at the US Treasury.

Presenter1:21

Indeed, her life seemed characterized by an endless upward trajectory until twenty fifteen.

Presenter1:27

when she suffered a great personal tragedy. Her forty seven year old husband, and the father to her two young children, collapsed suddenly and died of a heart attack. She says of that time

Presenter1:38

I could barely stand up. And so, welcome, Cheryl Sandberg.

Presenter1:44

You recommend in this book that you have just written that when somebody has suffered a profound

Presenter1:49

Life-shifting tragedy. You should not say to them, How are you? but rather, how are you today? So, how are you today?

Sheryl Sandberg1:56

Well, I'm excited to be here.

Sheryl Sandberg1:58

Music's important. Music was very important to Dave. It's very important to me. And I think the songs that we think of as important in our lives say something pretty profound about us. And that's how I am today.

Presenter2:10

I was surprised. I was surprised at how much you lay yourself bare and the very uh shocking and awful experience you went through in suddenly losing Dave, your husband.

Presenter2:20

It's an experience common to many, but most people are not as well known as you, of course, and most people do not write a book about it. Why have you decided to lay it open to the world?

Sheryl Sandberg2:31

When I lost Dave, it it wasn't just the overwhelming grief and sadness, but what happened in the kind of days and weeks that followed was this profound sense of isolation. I felt like people were looking at me like I was a ghost.

Sheryl Sandberg2:44

And I felt so isolated and so alone that I decided to write what I would write as a Facebook post if I were going to be honest about how I felt to the world. I wrote it really for myself. I thought it's not going to get worse and maybe it might get better. And so I hit post. And I was shocked at how broadly it was read. It was reported on the nightly news. But it actually really helped. It didn't bring Dave back and it didn't take away the grief, but it took away the feeling that I was alone because people started talking to me again. People started saying, How are you today?

Sheryl Sandberg3:19

And it wasn't a long time from then until I decided to actually write a book. But I think the experience of sharing and feeling less isolated started me down the path to option B.

Presenter3:32

Uh you are Chief Operating Officer of Facebook. Mark Zuckerberg, of course, is your boss. It was described in the beginning as a utility. I I imagine you wouldn't use that word anymore.

Sheryl Sandberg3:42

Well, now we talk about our mission as building community.

Sheryl Sandberg3:45

And in some ways, what we do is similar to what I did with that post, which is we bring people closer together. And I'm not naive. I know that every post is not about peace, love, and kindness. I know that every post doesn't make people feel good. But I think that for a lot of people, being able to share brings us closer. And in my own view, the world has never needed it more.

Presenter4:08

So let us turn then, Sheryl Sandberg, to the music, and tell me a little bit about this first choice and why it's on your list.

Sheryl Sandberg4:15

Well, Beyonce run the world, and the answer is girls. A few years ago, she did the Ban Bossy campaign with me. And if you ask crowds of people, Men, raise your hand if you've been called Bossy as a little boy.

Sheryl Sandberg4:28

Two hands go up.

Sheryl Sandberg4:29

Women, raise your hand if you were called bossy as a little girl. Every hand goes up. And that's because no matter what the cultural differences are for women all over the world, all over the world we expect men to lead and women to do for others. And so Beyoncé's message that women can run the world, that women should run the world, her message that she's the boss, I think is super important for not just women, but little girls and boys to hear.

Speaker 15:08

Alright, it's my b

Speaker 15:10

I'm not

Speaker 15:12

Oh.

Speaker 15:13

No sound.

Speaker 15:17

Some of them men think they freaked us like we do, but no, they don't. Make your check come at that neck, disrespect us, no they won't. Water nigga touch us.

Presenter5:29

That was Run the World brackets girls. Maybe we shouldn't have the girls put in the brackets given what you've just said, Charlotte Sandberg. That was, of course, Beyoncé seeing there. And you recently met our Home Secretary, Amber Rudd. According to reports, you were going to discuss what we all can do to tackle the online aspect of terrorism.

Presenter5:45

What did you talk to Amber Rudd about?

Sheryl Sandberg5:48

Well, it was a great meeting with your Home Secretary because we are very aligned in our goals, which is we want to make sure all of us do our part to stop terrorism. And so our Facebook policies are very clear. There's absolutely no place for terrorism, hate, calls for violence of any kind. Our goal is to not just pull it off Facebook, but use artificial intelligence and technology to get it before it's even uploaded. We're working in collaboration with the other tech companies now. So if a video by a terrorist is uploaded to any of our platforms, we are able to fingerprint it for all the others so that they can't move from platform to platform.

Presenter6:25

Uh you yourself have said in a statement, though, that algorithms can only do so much. What are the resources that Facebook is putting in to human beings, not just the algorithms?

Sheryl Sandberg6:34

That's right. Technology is a very important part of the puzzle, but context matters. So if someone puts up an ISIS flag, are they doing it to recruit or are they doing it to condemn? We absolutely don't allow the first, but we want the second because spreading those messages of condemning hate are so important. So we have about 4,500 people in our community operations working around the world in many languages, 24 hours. And this year alone, we're going to hire another 3,000. And we've worked with over 500 NGOs around the world to develop the messages that go against terrorist recruitment that are the messages of tolerance.

Presenter7:10

Facebook, of course, I should remind listeners, owns WhatsApp, a service that enables end to end encryption. The problem, of course, is that if we have terrorists communicating with each other, the government needs to know what these people are up to. Are you willing to end the encryption in order that government agencies

Presenter7:29

Can get vital information to understand better how these people are going about their dastardly business.

Sheryl Sandberg7:36

Well, the goal for governments is to get as much information as possible. And so when there are message services like WhatsApp that are encrypted, the message itself is encrypted, but the metadata is not, meaning that you send me a message. We don't know what that message says, but we know you contacted me. If people move off those encrypted services to go to encrypted services in countries that won't share the metadata, the government actually has less information, not more. And so as technology evolves, these are complicated conversations. We're in close communication working through the issues all around the world.

Presenter7:40

Okay.

Sheryl Sandberg8:10

Yeah.

Presenter8:10

That didn't sound like a no to me. That sounded like this may be something you might be willing to move on.

Sheryl Sandberg8:15

These are so complicated and there's so much and there's so much work to do, but the goal is very clear. Our goal is to make sure not only is there no terrorism on Facebook, no violence, but that we do our part as part of the broader society.

Presenter8:16

And there's so much and there's

Sheryl Sandberg8:28

To work with governments, with NGOs, with counterspeech, with people who are going against terrorism?

Sheryl Sandberg8:35

All doing our part to make sure that we have a peaceful world because everyone deserves that.

Presenter8:41

Cheryl Sandberg, let's listen to your second disc then. Why is this piece of music important to you?

Sheryl Sandberg8:46

Well, the Dixie Chicks remake of Landslide. First of all, it's just a beautiful song, right? Time makes you bolder. Children get older. I'm getting older too. I've always thought about the passage of time. And this is great female voices singing a song that was sung by a great female. Like, you didn't think it could get better, but it almost did.

Speaker 49:13

Well I've been afraid of changing'cause I feel my life around you.

Speaker 49:26

But time makes you older. Children get older. I'm getting older too.

Speaker 49:39

Bam

Presenter9:40

That was Dixie Chicks and Landslide. Sheryl Sandberg. Every impression that I get on reading about your family is that there were very strong women in it. Just tell me a little bit about the significant women in the Sandberg family.

Sheryl Sandberg9:52

Well, that starts with my grandmother.

Sheryl Sandberg9:54

She grew up very poor. Her parents got divorced, which was highly unusual. She worked as a maid, as a very young child, in other people's homes. When she was in high school, she was pulled out of school to help support the family. She spent days sewing little flowers on bras that she could sell. And it was a high school teacher that forced her parents to put her back into school. And she graduated. She went to Berkeley, where I gave the commencement speech a few years ago and just felt this overwhelming connection to, I mean, she's no longer alive, but to my grandma. And she was a huge influence in my life. And your mother, tell me about her.

Sheryl Sandberg10:31

My mother's the kindest person I've ever met. You know, she's the person who I remember once we went to the Broadway play. I forget what it was called, but it was a one-woman show about cancer. This woman has cancer and that's the show. And somehow at the end, the whole auditorium is gone, except we are still sitting there. And my mother.

Sheryl Sandberg10:47

Is comforting the strangers who have cancer who are crying on literally crying on her shoulder. That's my mother.

Presenter10:52

Was there a very strong sense around the kitchen table having dinner together that that there had to be kind of

Presenter10:58

Civil engagement beyond, that the family was one thing, that actually the tentacles of the family must reach out into the wider community.

Sheryl Sandberg11:06

Yes. I was raised to believe that you do for others outside yourself. My father was a doctor. People who were trying to just make money, those were very much against the family values. And my parents were very involved with, you know, Soviet Jewry, anyone who was speaking out against the Soviet Union, discriminated against because they were Jewish or because of other faiths. They worked hard to try to get them out. They went into the Soviet Union. They were arrested by the KGB, kicked out.

Sheryl Sandberg11:35

So I grew up knowing how to go to the store and buy bars of white chocolate that looked like soap because prisoners weren't allowed to get food, but they were allowed to get soap.

Presenter11:44

Growing up you were the eldest of three and at your wedding to Dave um your sister and brother made us made a speech about you and they said we were Cheryl's first employees. For more than ten years she took us under her wing and whipped us into shape.

Presenter11:58

Um of course you you're fundamentally in involved in this whole dialogue of how do we make leaders, how do we encourage people to be leaders? But do you think there is potentially something intrinsic in a person that means that they've sort of got it in them?

Sheryl Sandberg12:13

I think sometimes that's true, and certainly there are leaders who are just born.

Sheryl Sandberg12:17

But I think leadership is broad. We need leaders of all types, and I really believe leadership is something we can develop in anyone.

Sheryl Sandberg12:24

What I really believe is that we start telling little girls not to lead at very young ages, and we start telling little boys to lead at very young ages, and that's a mistake. I believe everyone has inside them the ability to lead, and we should let people choose that, not based on gender, but on who they are and who they want to be.

Presenter12:44

Let's go to the music, Cheryl. It's your third.

Sheryl Sandberg12:46

This is Queen. You're my best friend. I'm lucky in so many ways, but maybe one of the luckiest is I've had a group of best friends since I was quite young. We call each other the girls. They have been there for me through my first marriage and divorce. The birth of both my children, they were there when Dave was buried. A couple weeks after Dave died, when I just couldn't take it, I just sent an email: someone come.

Sheryl Sandberg13:12

They have jobs, one of them has five kids, they are busy. But I knew that they weren't going to fight over who wasn't coming, they were going to fight about who would. And they're always there. And to this day, my phone ring when any of the six of them calls is this song.

Speaker 413:28

Will you make me live now, honey?

Speaker 413:32

Who you making me live?

Speaker 413:36

Oh, you're the best friend.

Speaker 413:40

Out of a hell

Speaker 413:42

Been with you such a long time. You got sunshine.

Speaker 413:47

And I want you to know that my feelings are true, I really love

Presenter13:59

Queen, you're my best friend. Sheryl Sandberg, you read economics at Harvard. You've mentioned struggling with what you call self-doubt throughout your time in college. I find that...

Presenter14:10

I don't disbelieve you, but I'm astonished.

Presenter14:14

Tell me more about it.

Sheryl Sandberg14:15

Well, we know that women more than men suffer from the imposter syndrome and systematically underestimate their own performance. And so I definitely struggled with self-doubt and

Sheryl Sandberg14:27

Writing Lean In and building the Lean In organization actually really helped me because I studied self confidence and I understood how to build up other people's. And I spent so much time telling other women to feel more self confident, I learned it myself.

Presenter14:41

So when you were at college, how did your lack of self-confidence manifest itself? Because when I look at your C V, I'm like.

Presenter14:47

She was aiming high. So she should have, but she was aiming high.

Sheryl Sandberg14:51

You know, every test I thought I was going to fail. When I did well, I thought I had fooled them. I didn't feel like I earned it and owned it. And it wasn't until much later I felt that. And actually, learning that women were underestimating themselves helped me because I said, I don't want to be underestimated because I'm a woman. I don't want to underestimate myself.

Presenter15:08

All of this can of course seem like something of a rarefied argument, but it is applicable to women in their everyday lives, whether they are stacking shelves or they are a sales supervisor or they're working from home, because when it comes to things like performance review, if women expect that they are less capable, then they are less likely to say, I deserve the pay rise or I deserve the next job. Would that be a fair estimation?

Sheryl Sandberg15:30

Absolutely right.

Presenter15:30

That

Sheryl Sandberg15:31

And we know that when we don't ask, we don't get. There's a circle in Dublin. There are eight of them in this circle. The first one asked for a raise and got it. The second one asked for a raise and got it. All eight of them did, but they practiced with each other. Here's what I'm going to say to my boss: is that going to work? Now, that doesn't mean that everyone can negotiate for their own raise. We need to start paying women well, and we need the public policy and the corporate policy to get there.

Sheryl Sandberg15:56

But certainly, women applying for jobs at the same rate as men, women for running for office at the same rate as men, that's got to be part of the answer.

Presenter16:04

Time for some more music, Cheryl. Let's go to your fourth disc of the morning.

Sheryl Sandberg16:08

Hamilton is just magnificent in every way. And this is, it's been a huge hit on Broadway. It's about to open in London. It is unbelievable. You'll Be Back is the comic relief, but a great song. My daughter auditioned for her school play this year, and this was her audition song. And she just belted it out, and she did so well that she got cast as the part of the genie in Aladdin, which is one of the all-time great singing roles. But I will never hear the song without picturing her standing there and just belting it out.

Speaker 416:39

You'll be back, soon you'll see You remember you belong to me.

Speaker 416:47

You'll be back, time will tell.

Speaker 416:51

Remember that I served you well. Oceans rise, empires fall. We have seen each other through it all. And when push comes to shove, I will send a fully armed battalion to remind you of my love.

Presenter17:12

That was You'll Be Back from the original cast recording of the musical Hamilton with music and lyrics by Lynn Manuel Miranda, and it was performed there by Jonathan Groff.

Presenter17:22

You've described your parents, Charles Sandberg, as as being even more enthusiastic about you finding a husband than achieving academic success.

Presenter17:29

Now you mentioned that you were you had a short marriage and divorce pretty early on. You were in your mid early to mid twenties.

Presenter17:36

I'm not necessarily surprised that your parents felt that way, given the generation that they came from. I'm very surprised you went along with it. Why did you choose to accept that?

Sheryl Sandberg17:44

Well, I shouldn't have and it did feel like a big failure.

Sheryl Sandberg17:49

I felt like I was wearing a big scarlet letter D on my chest. I mean, I was 25 and I was divorced. My first husband was a wonderful man, still is. We're friends. I was just too young. I think that was when I started learning to think for myself, that I was going to have to find my own way. I think that was when I was starting to understand what I wanted to do in life, understand the kind of relationship I wanted. And I didn't get married again for 10 years. So it was 2004 that you married? I had a lot of growing up to do.

Presenter18:18

You might have a

Presenter18:21

So you married Dave in two thousand four, and I'm guessing then he was a nerd and a good guy.

Sheryl Sandberg18:26

He would not want to be called a nerd, but I think the truth was he knows at some level.

Presenter18:31

He was in tech. He had a big, big uh

Sheryl Sandberg18:34

He'd a big job. He had started this great company called Launch, which was the first online music service. He was a great lover of music. He had worked at Capital Records. He really wanted to transform the music industry. But yes, he was a nerd. He was a smart, loving, just wonderful man.

Presenter18:53

And this tech world that you both ended up in as it was just beginning to bloom and be hugely significant. Before that, you'd worked at the World Bank, you'd done an MBA, you'd worked for President Clinton's Treasury Secretary, Larry Summers. Then you moved on to Silicon Valley, and you joined Google when it was in its absolute infancy. It was only 2001, and Google would have been, what, two, three years old at the time.

Speaker 119:14

Three years old at the time.

Presenter19:15

To what extent, when you got aboard the rocket ship of Silicon Valley at that point, did you think I'm in on something big here?

Sheryl Sandberg19:25

Well, I'd been working in the U.S. government at our Treasury Department. And, you know, that was when the first tech boom was happening. And what I saw were companies really trying to make a difference. I met Eric Schmidt. He introduced me to Larry Page and Sergey Brin. And Google was trying to organize the world's information. You weren't going to go to the library anymore. I've tried to explain to my children what an encyclopedia is or that you wouldn't have every question answered immediately. They don't even understand it.

Sheryl Sandberg19:53

You know, then there was Facebook, and when I met Mark.

Sheryl Sandberg19:56

Facebook was trying to give people individual identity online. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when.

Sheryl Sandberg20:02

We were all anonymous online.

Sheryl Sandberg20:04

The idea of putting your real self, your real face, your real friendships online was completely new. And I was convinced that it was going to make people understand each other better.

Presenter20:14

Let's have some more music, Sheryl Sandberg. We're going to listen to your fifth. Tell me about this.

Sheryl Sandberg20:18

So, this is Sweet Baby James by James Taylor. So, I love James Taylor. Our son was our firstborn. And for some reason, we started putting on music to put him to sleep as a very young child. And I would say, for the first four to five years of his life, he only went to sleep with that disc. So, we once left that disc at a friend's house over an hour away, and we got back in the car with the infant and drove to get that disc. And what was so funny is when our son was about three, you would hear him sing, you know, the lines are funny for a three-year-old thinking about women and glasses of beer. He would not go to sleep without this song.

Sheryl Sandberg20:52

Now

Speaker 420:52

As the moon rises he sits by his fire

Speaker 420:57

Thinking about women and glasses of beer.

Speaker 421:02

Closing his eyes as the doggies retire.

Speaker 421:07

He sings out a song which is soft but it's clear.

Speaker 421:12

As if maybe someone could hear

Speaker 421:20

Good night, you moonlight ladies.

Speaker 421:25

Rocka by Sweet Baby Jane

Presenter21:30

That was James Taylor and Sweet Baby James. Sheryl Sandberg, I spoke in the introduction then about your husband, Dave, dying suddenly at the age of 47 from a heart attack. He'd gone to the gym, you were on a weekend break, he'd gone to the gym to use the running machine, and you found him later with a head injury. He'd fallen to the floor because he'd had a massive cardiac arrest. It's clear that you received an enormous amount of support from friends and family. You also write about somebody almost kind of shouting to you across the atrium in your workspace, I'm sorry for your loss. You know, you say you were almost sort of surrounded at every turn at times by platitudes. They thought they were being sensitive, but in fact they were being highly insensitive. Is it a very finely calibrated thing, sort of tuning in to where somebody is and trying to be supportive but not either smother them with clichés or sort of disregard their pain?

Sheryl Sandberg22:21

It is. It's a hard thing to do, but you get there by focusing on what's real and acknowledging the pain. So before I lost Dave, I got this wrong. If a friend of mine had cancer and many friends of mine have sadly had cancer, I would say, I know you're going to be okay.

Sheryl Sandberg22:36

Now I know the voice in their head is saying, How do you know? Now I say, I know you don't know if you're going to be okay, and neither do I, but you will not go through this alone. I will be there with you. We can show up for each other. It's not going to make cancer go away, it's not going to make death go away, but it is going to keep us from being isolated.

Presenter22:56

Where did you begin with your children?

Presenter22:59

How did you start making the new life?

Sheryl Sandberg23:05

Ugh, my biggest fear when Dave died is that my kids wouldn't be okay. I called Mindy, one of the girls she had lost her mother when we were thirteen screaming from the hospital when Dave died, Tell me my kids are gonna be okay Tell me my kids are gonna be okay

Sheryl Sandberg23:22

She had to like scream back, Cheryl, I don't know what you're talking about.

Sheryl Sandberg23:26

And then I was kind of able to choke out, Dave died. Are my kids going to be okay? And, you know, she was a tremendous source of inspiration because.

Sheryl Sandberg23:34

Her mother died by suicide when we were so young, and I lived through it with her.

Sheryl Sandberg23:39

And she's not just okay, she is remarkable.

Sheryl Sandberg23:42

She is one of the most loving, giving, optimistic people I've ever met.

Sheryl Sandberg23:48

And I turned to Adam and said, Adam was my psychologist friend who I eventually wrote this book with. What do I do to make my kids okay? And he had a lot of good advice.

Sheryl Sandberg23:58

And I tried to make it okay for them to grieve. We still talk about Dave. We talk about Dave all the time. I tried never to sugarcoat it.

Sheryl Sandberg24:09

I always say to this day I miss him too. It's horrible this happened to us. But it's not our fault. It's not your fault. And Daddy would want you to be happy.

Sheryl Sandberg24:21

Because at the end of this, it is about not just for me, but for everyone who's suffering, it's about taking back joy. Because my kids deserve joy. They do not deserve to feel unhappy or feel guilty for the rest of their lives because they lost their father. A bunch of months after Dave died. My brother-in-law, his only brother, Rob, who's so amazing, called me and said, All Dave ever wanted was for you and your children to be happy. Don't take that away from him in death.

Presenter24:53

Let's take a break, Sheryl Sandberg. We're going to hear some more of your musical choices now. We're on your sixth. Tell me about why this is important to you. Tell me why you've chosen it.

Sheryl Sandberg25:03

Because this line may be the most important line to me that was ever sung.

Sheryl Sandberg25:08

A long December, and there's reason to believe Maybe this year will be better than the last.

Speaker 425:34

A long December and there's reason to believe Maybe this year will be better than the last

Speaker 425:47

I can't remember the last thing that you said as you were leaving But the days go by so fast

Presenter25:59

That was Counting Crows and a long December. Cheryl Sandberg, how did your experience how is the woman that you are today compared with the woman that you were five, six, seven years ago change the way you lead, change the way you work, change the messages you give to those many thousands of people who are within your organization?

Sheryl Sandberg26:20

I'm so different. I'm sadder. I didn't know anyone could cry this much. I asked my sister, how is it possible? She's a doctor. She said, Oh, the majority of your body is water.

Sheryl Sandberg26:30

Yeah, I didn't understand where all the tears I said, I don't drink this much water. How is this possible? And she explained it. But it worked, it changed me too, because what I used to do and I still believe in is any time anything was going wrong is I was focused on giving people a break.

Sheryl Sandberg26:45

Do you need time off? People need the time off they need to grieve and recover and take care of family members and themselves. But they also need to be built back up. And so Mark, I don't even know how he knew to do this. My fifteen year younger boss, Mark Zuckerberg, said to me, Not just do you need time off, he said that, but he said, but

Sheryl Sandberg27:05

I'm glad you're here because you made an important point today.

Sheryl Sandberg27:08

The days when I felt like all I could do was show up in the office for a few hours and cry.

Sheryl Sandberg27:13

Hearing that was so helpful. So now I offer people time off. I say, can we take that project off you? But when they want to be at work and sometimes.

Sheryl Sandberg27:22

For me, the memories of Dave are everywhere, but they're the worst at home by far. So for me, when I can, getting out of the house and having something else to do, that was a lifeline. And I've heard that from many people who have lost spouses and children. And for those people, saying to them, We still want you. No pressure, but do you want this project? Because I still believe in you. That's so important.

Sheryl Sandberg27:44

And we help others by rebuilding them, helping them build their self-confidence back up. I still believe in you as a colleague, I still believe in you as a friend.

Sheryl Sandberg27:51

Laughter.

Sheryl Sandberg27:53

My friend Nell Scovell, who wrote Lean In With Me and was an editor of this book she's a comedy writer she stood up at her mother's funeral she has four siblings with an envelope and said I have in this envelope the name of mom's favorite child.

Sheryl Sandberg28:07

At the funeral.

Sheryl Sandberg28:09

And that's hysterical.

Presenter28:11

Is

Sheryl Sandberg28:11

And a little horrifying, right?

Sheryl Sandberg28:14

We've always made jokes at funerals, but now I understand why. Because in that moment, in that laughter, we take control away from the darkness, from the death.

Sheryl Sandberg28:23

And we bring it back to the light and we say that we can laugh.

Sheryl Sandberg28:28

And we can help each other laugh.

Presenter28:30

Tell me about your next piece of music, Cheryl Sandberg. What are we going to hear?

Sheryl Sandberg28:33

So this is Elton John. I'm Still Standing. I'm often asked if I could meet anyone in the world who would I meet. I would meet Elton John. I've loved his music my whole life. He decided to do a concert series in Las Vegas. And right away, Dave knew how much I loved him. Dave got tickets for me and a co-group of friends. And since we got our tickets early, we were in the front. And he did this thing in that concert where the first bunch of rose got to go on the stage and dance. And so I got to dance with Elton John on a stage. I mean, he was playing the piano. He wasn't dancing with me. And this is the ultimate resilience song. I'm Still Standing.

Speaker 429:08

Don't you know I'm still standing Better than I ever did

Speaker 429:13

Looking like a true survivor

Speaker 429:16

Feeling like a little kid

Speaker 429:19

I'll do it then after all this time.

Speaker 429:24

Picking up the pieces of my life without you on my mind.

Speaker 429:29

Do that!

Presenter29:31

That was Elton John and I'm still standing. Sheryl Sandberg, you've used some very it is, it strikes me, a rather brilliantly American thing to do. You've been very straightforward today. You talk openly, you talk with a lot of emotion, but there's very little kind of self-pity there. Do you feel dare you plan bits of your life anymore? Because of course one of the things that you in common with many people who are bereaved have is is is you are robbed of your imagined future. Do you dare to think, well in ten years' time I'd like to be well not doing this huge job anymore, I'd like to be retired on a beach in Mexico or I'd like to be building a new family with somebody else. Do you dare to dream the next part of your life?

Sheryl Sandberg30:13

Maybe not yet.

Sheryl Sandberg30:15

But I'd like to.

Sheryl Sandberg30:16

My children are in summer camp right now, and they're gone for weeks. And that's been hard because I remember Dave and I for years talked about we both went to camp and loved it. They'll go to camp.

Sheryl Sandberg30:32

And we'll travel and we'll do things. I don't know if I'm at a place where I can see 10 years out the way I could with Dave because that was Dave was the plan.

Sheryl Sandberg30:43

In the early days and months and weeks after Dave died, I thought it would never get better.

Sheryl Sandberg30:49

I now know it does and can. Not in every situation, not on one time frame. But if we believe it can and we help each other, we do not leave people alone, it can.

Sheryl Sandberg31:01

And I want some good to come from Dave's death, because without some meaning, without some good, all there is is death and darkness. And Dave shone too brightly for that to be the legacy. The legacy has to be life and hope and joy, because that's who he was.

Presenter31:22

Tell me about your eighth piece of music, Sheryl Sandberg. What are we going to listen to finally today?

Sheryl Sandberg31:25

Uh

Sheryl Sandberg31:26

Well, this is one by U2. Dave was a massive U2 fan. We went to lots of those concerts together, and this was always our favorite song.

Sheryl Sandberg31:38

Perfect song to end on.

Speaker 431:41

Is it getting better?

Speaker 131:41

Is it game?

Sheryl Sandberg31:47

Yeah.

Speaker 431:47

Yeah. Do you feel the same?

Speaker 431:52

Will it make it easier on you now?

Speaker 431:57

You got someone to blame

Speaker 432:00

You say

Speaker 432:02

Won't love

Speaker 432:05

Won't lie.

Speaker 432:07

When it's born me

Speaker 432:10

Night

Speaker 432:13

Won't let me go.

Speaker 432:15

Get to share it.

Speaker 432:18

Leaves you, baby, don't care.

Presenter32:24

That was you two and one, Cheryl Sandberg. It is the fate of every castaway and has been for 75 years that they are leaving to be all on their own on a desert island. And it strikes me that listening to you talk about communities and trying to be of help to people through your own adversity, that actually being you know, you lead this huge uh company along with Mark Zuckerberg, being all on your own on a desert island, that will be some sort of hell for you, surely.

Sheryl Sandberg32:51

I think that would be very hard, probably for anyone, but I don't think I would enjoy it that much. I mean, maybe for a couple of hours to read a book, a little peace and quiet would be nice, but I think actually being cast away would be quite difficult.

Presenter33:02

Aside from these eight pieces of music, I give all castaways the complete works of Shakespeare and the Bible. You're allowed to take one other book with you. What other book will yours be?

Sheryl Sandberg33:12

Well, my favorite book of all time is A Wrinkle in Time. I love the triumph of the light against the darkness.

Presenter33:18

Okay, we shall give you that book. You're allowed as well, along with the books and the music, a luxury item. What's yours gonna be?

Sheryl Sandberg33:25

I was either gonna take fuzzy socks like kind of bed socks sort of I love those socks. Like my feet are always cold. But I think in the end that doesn't work so well on a desert island'cause all the sand will get in your toes and stuff. I think so. So I think I would take a journal.

Presenter33:36

I think so.

Sheryl Sandberg33:38

If I were on a desert island with nothing to do and no one to talk to and no community,

Sheryl Sandberg33:43

Writing would be what I would do.

Presenter33:44

Okay, we shall give you that. And if you had to run to save just one of these disks from the waves, which one would it be?

Sheryl Sandberg33:51

One, you two.

Presenter33:52

It's yours. Cheryl Sandberg, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Sheryl Sandberg33:57

Thank you for having me.

Presenter34:43

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio 4.

Speaker 135:16

This is the B B C.