Tuning in…
Tuning in…
Desert Island Discs
Presented by Kirsty Young
Britain's most successful female Olympic athlete, a rower who won medals at five consecutive Games including gold in 2012.
Eight records
I took my mum along to Tina Turner's last concert in the UK, 50 years in the business, and she rocked the stage. There's something about her performance that's triumphant and defiant and just joyful. And she was strutting around in those incredible heels and short skirt and huge hair. I'm asked all the time about role models in my life, and I thought, here's a woman nearly 70 having had the life she's had, and she can do it as if she's in her 20s. And I've gone for Proud Mary because my hardest training camp I do is one of the cycling camps. We go for hours and hours and hours in the bike. And two of the girls, Jess and Beth and I, used to sing this and they're rolling, rolling along the roads at times, and that kept us going.
The Olympic Games is just 24-7 assault on your senses. You know, it's light, it's sound, it's noise, it's wonderful, but in a way when I come back from it, I need to kind of detox somehow. And for me, since 2004 onwards, after every Olympics, I've gone out to Africa. And for me, I go on safari and I switch off and I go into those massive African skies. I sit by a watching hole and watch herds of elephants or lion come drink or whatever it might happen and and I just get perspective back. I just get reminded that, you know, sport isn't everything and I feel at peace and at calm and I really need that. So this is Pata Pata by Miriam Makeba.
Original London Cast of Les Misérables
This one is actually for my sister Sarah and my dad as well. Growing up, we always had music around, but my dad loved musicals. And in the car, we would have Evita, Joseph, and his technical dream coat, and Jesus Christ superstar, and we'd play it over and over and over again in the car. And my sister and I would be in the back seat fighting over the different roles. We took different roles when we sang it both quite badly. And I've gone for One Day More, Le Miserable, and I just love the story. And also, going back to training camp a little bit with rowing, then there were many days we just thought one day more, we'll get through it.
If I Can DreamFavourite
This is actually for my mum and my aunt. My aunt got married and moved away to the States. So every four years we got to this amazing trip to the USA and one year we got to go to Graceland. I was only 12, so I think I didn't really get to Elvis before that. And then going through those gates and seeing the jungle room and seeing his cars and hearing the stories from people who had been there, I kind of got what it was. I've gone for If I Can Dream and it's because I am a dreamer and I'm an optimist and I think, especially right now, I think there's so much in this world that is concerning and worrying and frightening. And I think there is hope when you listen to this song.
So this is while I'm back at school still. So I grew up, you know, in Glasgow in the 80s and it was a time of, you know, Delimiti and Deacon Blue and Wet, Wet, Wet and the Proclaimers and Fear Contraction and Simple Minds and Hue and Cry and all these amazing bands and the Barlands was infamous at that point and it was before I was legally allowed to go and drink and if you get into those clubs it was just the most exciting thing. I think I saw you there. ... But of all the bands, I think the one I could probably sing every word of every song to was Texas. And I saw them so many times live and I've chosen Halo and as soon as those opening sh bars start, then I'm back in Glasgow in the eighties and I'm happy.
Well while I'm still in Edinburgh and I'm learning about rowing and learning about life, this song just takes me back to, you know those nights in the clubs at university and everyone's like, you know, arms in the air and singing the words as if they really know what life is like and you have no idea at that point what life is like, but you sing it as if you know. And this is The Water Boys and the Hull of the Moon.
I moved down from Scotland in 1999 and I had to live at the time the rowing base was in Marlowe, which was just along the river from Henley on Thames. And I remember going into Henley. It was the first time I'd been there when it hadn't been the regatta on, but it was packed, it was absolutely packed. And then around the corner, this huge sort of black hearse came around the corner with these two black horses with the big plumes up. And then as the hearse drew alongside it, the side in flowers said Dusty. And I had by accident stumbled into Dusty Springfield's funeral and there was too many people to go into the church and they piped out the funeral across the people gathered. And I heard her a lot growing up. My mum used to play her. And you go back and hear the voice and you think there was no one who did it like Dusty. And this one is a nice good girl power song called You Don't Own Me.
Well, clearly for for the the Olympics has dominated my life. And I want to do something that somehow encapsulated all the Olympics. And this song was played at the closing ceremony of twenty twelve, which was my most amazing moment. And it's Elbow One Day Like This.
The keepsakes
The book
I get teased relentlessly. I I live by quotes. I've I use them as inspiration, I use them as motivation, I use them as talking points. And it would just give me thoughts for as long as I was on the island. I'd have company with people and their amazing words.
The luxury
this luxury is because I generally, even even now, even off my island, I find this a luxury. I would love to take, if it's possible, the Sunday papers.
In conversation
Presenter asks
What is it about being out there in the dust and the dirt, to use your words, that makes you feel truly alive?
There's something about the challenge. I do love that it's hard and it's not for everyone and it doesn't get easier and it's you're trying to find perfection in sport a lot of the time and it is a constant battle against the elements, against your own mental strength, against trying to create something with partners and other people and it's never the same and I love it.
Presenter asks
How would you describe your feelings about coming second?
I'm not a great loser, I have to admit. ... Well, it didn't used to be, to be honest. My first Olympics was a silver and that was the you know, the f the the I was in a crew with three other girls, it's four of us, it was the first ever Olympic medal for women's rowing in the history of rowing. So it was incredible. That that was an achievement, that was success. And it and it kind of showed where I got to mentally, where our sport got to over those next four or eight years that silver turned into, from my viewpoint, a failure.
The recording
Timestamps play the recording from that turn
Dame Katherine Grainger
They
Presenter
Is the B Uh
Dame Katherine Grainger
Be safe.
Presenter
Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons, the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.
Presenter
For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.
Presenter
My castaway this week is the rower, Dame Catherine Granger. She is the most successful British Olympic female athlete ever, having won medals in five consecutive games. But for a long time they were only silvers. I say only because I have the feeling she's the sort of person for whom that's not quite satisfying enough. It was on a chilly stretch of Buckinghamshire water in twenty twelve that she finally won Olympic gold.
Speaker 1
No.
Presenter
In six minutes and fifty five seconds of lung busting, sinew straining effort and get this in parallel with her record breaking sporting achievements, she's completed a law degree, a master's, and a PhD. She says
Presenter
Whatever the results of the challenge, it's worth being out there in the dust and the dirt. It's worth the battle and the scars and the possible heartbreak. And of course, it's worth having dreams, because you never know when and how they might come true. So welcome, Catherine. And what is it about being out there in the dust and the dirt, to use your words, that makes you feel truly alive?
Dame Katherine Grainger
There's something about the challenge. I do love that it's hard and it's not for everyone and it doesn't get easier and it's you're trying to find perfection in sport a lot of the time and it is a constant battle against the elements, against your own mental strength, against trying to create something with partners and other people and it's never the same and I love it.
Presenter
As well as those Olympic medals, you have won six World Championship golds. How would you describe your feelings about coming second?
Dame Katherine Grainger
I'm not a great loser, I have to admit.
Presenter
Anasilva is losing.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Banner.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Well, it didn't used to be, to be honest. My first Olympics was a silver and that was the you know, the f the the I was in a crew with three other girls, it's four of us, it was the first ever Olympic medal for women's rowing in the history of rowing. So it was incredible. That that was an achievement, that was success. And it and it kind of showed where I got to mentally, where our sport got to over those next four or eight years that silver turned into, from my viewpoint, a failure.
Presenter
And your partnership, of course, in twenty twelve was with Anna Watkins to win the gold in London. How did your world change after that?
Dame Katherine Grainger
It changed, certainly externally, massively. You know, Anna and myself, we had a fantasy come to this dream of the Olympic gold, the ultimate in Olympic sport. We'd achieved what we'd been aiming for. And it's an incredible driving force in your life to be chasing something like Olympic success. But you are aware, you know, you're not saving lives, you're not doing anything that really could have impact and meaning. And that's always been important for me in my life. And I think the wonderful thing after London was actually the response from the public. You know, I got incredible letters and emails and messages from complete strangers saying that I had changed their lives and they'd been inspired and you know some people had got over depression and some people you know people who had very personal meaningful stories that actually watching me and Anna sitting in a boat going backwards actually did have a positive impact and it reassured me that maybe it's not just a selfish pastime.
Presenter
Let's go then, Catherine Granger, to the list. Tell me about your first disc today. What are we going to hear?
Dame Katherine Grainger
We're going to hear from the legend that is Tina Turner. I took my mum along to Tina Turner's last concert in the UK, 50 years in the business, and she rocked the stage. There's something about her performance that's triumphant and defiant and just joyful. And she was strutting around in those incredible heels and short skirt and huge hair. I'm asked all the time about role models in my life, and I thought, here's a woman nearly 70 having had the life she's had, and she can do it as if she's in her 20s. And I've gone for Pride Mary because my hardest training camp I do is one of the cycling camps. We go for hours and hours and hours in the bike. And two of the girls, Jess and Beth and I, used to sing this and they're rolling, rolling along the roads at times, and that kept us going.
Speaker 1
Say we're rolling.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Rollin', yeah.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Rolling, rolling on a rail.
Speaker 1
The River
Speaker 1
I lost a good job in the cinematic. Working for the main every night and day. And I never lost a man and sleep and worrying about the way bank find out.
Presenter
That was Tina Turner and the Proud Marian Chosen, Catherine Granger, because you said you play that when you're on these terrible cycling training camps. You've said of uh training it is long, tiring and relentlessly repetitive.
Presenter
You've got a very sharp brain. Apart from listening to the music and driving your physical self, what's going on in your head when you're training?
Dame Katherine Grainger
There's a mix, so sometimes you need that very sharp mind to be very aware of what you're doing. Rowing is one movement over and over and over again, so actually you can break it down into tiny, tiny bits of movement and you try and make all those things perfect, which is hard after about an hour and a half or two hours doing the same thing. And then other days you want the technique right, but a lot of it's more about the physical training and the endurance side. So actually it's a little bit like driving. You could almost make it happen very naturally and your mind can wander. What does it wander to? What are you thinking? Genuinely, sometimes it's simple as, oh, what do I need to go and get to the shops? And other times when I was doing my PhD, I was trying to put together what my next chapter might be.
Presenter
Other than when you complete in single skulls, you you are always rowing with at least one other person. You must almost become one organism when you're out there in the water. Is is is that fair? And what is that sensation? Because it's not something that most of us really will ever experience.
Dame Katherine Grainger
No, and I think I genuinely think it's a huge privilege. I mean it it's tough because some partnerships or crews that you form are very natural and very easy and it's brilliant. It's one of the most intense relationships you'll experience. You kind of live in each other's pockets and you are utterly reliant on each other and you need to be absolutely in tune. We don't choose who we are with. So it's like any relationship, you work on them day in, day out. And kind of honesty and trust and loyalty is at the heart of anything.
Presenter
Let's have some more music. Catherine Granger, tell me about your second one.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Right, the Olympic Games is just 24-7 assault on your senses. You know, it's light, it's sound, it's noise, it's wonderful, but in a way when I come back from it, I need to kind of detox somehow. And for me, since 2004 onwards, after every Olympics, I've gone out to Africa. And for me, I go on safari and I switch off and I go into those massive African skies. I sit by a watching hole and watch herds of elephants or lion come drink or whatever it might happen and and I just get perspective back. I just get reminded that, you know, sport isn't everything and I feel at peace and at calm and I really need that. So this is Pata Pata by Mir Makiba.
Speaker 1
Saku Poga Sati Bega Da Ti Patapa, Saku Poga Sati Bega, that Tata Pa, Saku Poga Sati Pega, that Tatapa, Saku Poga Sati Bega, the Tapai Ama, the Tata Potai Yama, my Yama, the Taiyamo Maam.
Speaker 1
That tips I'm a major.
Speaker 1
Nati Patum Patamoo Sati Bega Natsi
Presenter
That was Miriam McKeba and Pata Pata. Catherine Granger, you're originally from Glasgow. You've lived down south for a very long time now. I wonder what Scotland means to you?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Scotland's still home. My mum and dad still live up north in Edinburgh. I was in Glasgow for seventeen years until I went to university and I'm so proud of it and I love it. I think it's made me. I think it I think my roots there made me what I went on and did in my life.
Presenter
You mentioned your mum, Liz. She had two daughters in quick succession, eighteen months between you and your sister, and at the same time as you were young and she was bringing you up with your father, she was working as a teacher. And you have said that during that time she never seemed stressed. Is that can that possibly Yeah.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Computer
Presenter
True
Dame Katherine Grainger
She never seemed stressed out. She might have been, but she might tell a very different story. I mean, she's been and continues to be a massive inspiration in my life. She adored being a teacher. She was at one of the schools quite close to our school. So I knew some of the pupils that she taught, and it's always a bit embarrassing when your mum's a teacher. But genuinely, everyone that spoke about her just loved her classes. She used to work very hard at home and take work home, but because she loved it, and I think without being aware of it, I picked up on you know, if you find something that you love and you're passionate about and you adore as a job, as a living, then actually.
Presenter
Yeah, that's just
Dame Katherine Grainger
You're going to enjoy working at it and it's not a hardship in that way, so.
Presenter
And tell me about your dad. He he began in teaching, but w outside of work, what sort of father was he?
Dame Katherine Grainger
He is brilliant. You know, he was the only man in our quite small family, so he was very much outnumbered by the girls. He's quieter than my sister, my mum, and I, and he was very outdoorsy. He used to take us out to Klein and Monroes nearby. We used to go out walking on the lochs and
Presenter
I mean when numbers are are high, how old were you when you were taking up the Monroe?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Oh, I was young, I don't know, ten, twelve, we started going out there and climbing properly and it was never seen as a big deal. It was just, you know, it was a lovely, lovely time to go out there with my dad and be out in the fresh air.
Presenter
Where do you think you're uncommon drive?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Yeah.
Presenter
If
Dame Katherine Grainger
Began. Uh
Dame Katherine Grainger
Uh I honestly don't know. I mean, I've asked my mum and dad, they think I was kind of born with it. I think I've always been com
Presenter
Pastive Yeah.
Presenter
You weren't the same age as your big sister, but you were only a kick in the shirt off it. You know, eighteen months is is pretty close. Do you think were you looking at her and thinking, Well, if she can, I will?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Yeah, I think there was that. I mean, my big sister Sarah, she's the most wonderful person. She was very competitive herself. We were only a year apart in school years. So everything she went to, I kind of went at the same time. And she had this wonderful mix of being competitive and massively wanting to beat me at things, but also she's got this unbelievable sort of caring, nurturing side. So if I was getting upset'cause I'd been beaten by my big sister or something, she would generally then pull back a bit and kind of look after me. Whereas I could just be annoyingly competitive as a younger sister until I got better than her. And that must have been you know frustrating for her, but yeah, very appreciative for me.
Presenter
And that's how
Dame Katherine Grainger
You build a champ
Presenter
Pien, tell me about your third then. What what are we going to hear next?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Right, we're changing it slightly. So, this one is actually for my sister Sarah and my dad as well. Growing up, we always had music around, but my dad loved musicals. And in the car, we would have Evita, Joseph, and his technical dream coat, and Jesus Christ superstar, and we'd play it over and over and over again in the car. And my sister and I would be in the back seat fighting over the different roles. We took different roles when we sang it both quite badly. And I've gone for One Day More, Le Miserable, and I just love the story. And also, going back to training camp a little bit with rowing, then there were many days we just thought one day more, we'll get through it.
Speaker 2
One Day War.
Speaker 2
Another day, another destiny
Speaker 2
This never ending road to Calvary
Speaker 2
These men who seem to know my crime will surely come a second time one day
Speaker 2
I'm gonna leave when we are parting.
Speaker 2
One day more you'll be well
Speaker 1
Morrow yogi worlds away.
Speaker 2
Uh
Speaker 1
And yet with you my world has started
Presenter
That was the original London cast recording of Les Miserable. They were singing One Day More, composed by Claude Michel Schoenberg, with lyrics by Herbert Kretzmer. Your maternal grandmother, Catherine Granger, Isabel, she she was very important in your life. Your grandfather, her husband, was a policeman.
Presenter
Is it true, I hope it's true, that she they lived in a sort of police house that had cells attached. That's true. She would do home baking and go in.
Presenter
Push it through the cell bars to the inmates.
Dame Katherine Grainger
To the in
Dame Katherine Grainger
Yeah, my gran and granddad that you know lived in Aberdeen the whole time growing up and our school holidays in the summer that's where we'd go to. We'd go to Aberdeen and we'd go swimming in the North Sea and maybe that's that's where the toughness comes from. My granddad had been in the place you know his whole life and my gran she used to bake all the time and long before my time she got told off by my granddad because she'd been caught nipping through into the jail cells and giving these poor people who are locked up well you know what a shame and giving the the criminals for want of a better word uh her home bakes
Presenter
All the Olympians who won gold in 2012 in their home cities and towns were given golden post boxes, or they were weren't given them, but they were put up in their honour. Yours confusingly was put up in Aberdeen and actually
Dame Katherine Grainger
So you're from Glasgow?
Presenter
Yeah.
Dame Katherine Grainger
For a long, long time, mum and dad had lived just outside of Aberdeen. So that had been written down somewhere in my hometown. So I went up to see it, and it was the most emotional thing, because totally unbeknownst to me, and unbeknownst to them, they had painted the post box that sat directly outside the voluntary shop that my gran had worked in for over 20 years of her life. And for years, my sister I used to sort of serve behind the counters with these fabulous collection of, to our mind, elderly women who ran the shop. And I loved it. And it was just part of my childhood growing up. My gran had sadly had passed away by this point, but I kind of feel that's for her. It sits there for her.
Presenter
Your grandna p she passed away in two thousand five. You must have been in training at the time for the World Championships in Japan. She was very dear to you. How much time did you get to spend with her when she was ill?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Uh not enough. Both my grand and granddad passed away in that year. And I think that's one of my big frustrations is, you know, I just couldn't go back. I went back a few times but I couldn't spend quality time there. I obviously was there for the funeral and then left um sort of that night to go back to training camp.
Presenter
We we often hear, especially at gold medal moments, breathless moments, elite sportsmen and women say there have been so many sacrifices, I want to thank my family, and so on and so on. I wonder, can you explain to me why that sacrifice i is worth it?
Dame Katherine Grainger
I I have a thing where I I don't like talking about a sacrifice.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Sacrifice is too grand a word for it. It's a choice. No one made me, no one forced me into it. It was absolutely my life choice, and I don't regret any of it. You know, I've missed weddings, I've missed birthdays, I've missed funerals, I've missed spending time with my family, especially when you feel it's important to be with them. And that's hard. It's not a regret, but you look back and you go, That's the thing that I would change if I could. But I know my family have been so supportive of me that they totally understood every step. You know, when I stood in the podium, it was awful not to be able to share it with my grandparents at that point, but I also, you know, part of me hopes they were part of that medal too.
Presenter
Some more music, Catherine Granger. It's time for your fourth.
Dame Katherine Grainger
So this is actually for my mum and my aunt. My aunt got married and moved away to the States. So every four years we got to this amazing trip to the USA and one year we got to go to Graceland. I was only 12, so I think I didn't really get to Elvis before that. And then going through those gates and seeing the jungle room and seeing his cars and hearing the stories from people who had been there, I kind of got what it was. I've gone for If I Can Dream and it's because I am a dreamer and I'm an optimist and I think, especially right now, I think there's so much in this world that is concerning and worrying and frightening. And I think there is hope when you listen to this song.
Speaker 1
We're lost in a cloud.
Speaker 1
With too much rain
Speaker 1
We're trapped in a world
Speaker 1
That's trouble with pain
Speaker 1
But as long as a man has the strength to dream, he can redeem his soul as life.
Presenter
Elvis, if I can dream. You have said, Catherine Granger, that sports as a teenager, and at this time it was karate, helped you learn so much about yourself. What did you come to understand as a teenager about yourself?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Well, I wasn't very introspective or soul-searching at that age. I'd had a very, very happy childhood and didn't have anything sort of angst-like to deal with. But I think also as a teenager, you don't really know what you're capable of or what you might do or why. So, you know, with karate, I went for a white belt and really sort of struggled to make it through the grading belts. And then, but by the end of the time I left school, I'd become a black belt. And I just didn't know if that was going to be possible. And my teacher at the time, Ken Davis, who was actually the art teacher who took it, he kept putting me forward for more things. But he also reminded me how important it was to enjoy what I did. It wasn't about trying to achieve the next thing all the time. He believed I could. And then when I finished, he gave me his original black belt that he'd got decades before. And it was a big, big thing for me about how passionate, how inspiring, how emotional a sport can be. A black belt, could you still I mean could you take me out if I gave you trouble? Are you still proficient? If you were sitting down I could. I'm not as flexible as I used to be. But yeah, no, I could be dangerous.
Presenter
I am mostly sitting down. I'd like to have more of a sort of picture of you as a teenager in school.
Dame Katherine Grainger
How the
Presenter
Clearly you had this great sort of physical ability and this drive, but high schools can be very tribal. What tribe were you in? Were you just in the sporty tribe?
Dame Katherine Grainger
No, and I wasn't actually I mean I was sporty at school but I never thought that would be my future. I was good at school, I really enjoyed it. I wasn't good at singing. I wasn't allowed in the choir when I was at primary school and that's scarred me ever since. But I loved the art side of things and I actually thought when I went to university that maybe I would I thought well I went to study law so I thought I'd go to university and become a lawyer and possibly work in theatre or musical theatre because one of the last years before I went to university I worked at the King's Theatre behind the scenes at Calamity Jane. I remember in Glasgow and thinking I don't want to be
Dame Katherine Grainger
out there, have my face on stage, but I loved you know, in the in the darkness, the the scene change moments when you run on in black and you change the scene and you can just sense the audience out there and there's that amazing moment of live theater and you think, God, this is this is the connection to the people
Presenter
I loved it. More music, Dame Catherine Granger. Tell me about the next one. We're on your fifth.
Dame Katherine Grainger
So this is while I'm back at school still. So I grew up, you know, in Glasgow in the 80s and it was a time of, you know, Delimiti and Deacon Blue and Wet, Wet, Wet and the Proclaimers and Fear Contraction and Simple Minds and Hue and Cry and all these amazing bands and the Barlands was infamous at that point and it was before I was legally allowed to go and drink and if you get into those clubs it was just the most exciting thing. I think I saw you there.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Hopefully you did. First time we ever met.
Dame Katherine Grainger
But of all the bands, I think the one I could probably sing every word of every song to was Texas. And I saw them so many times live and I've chosen Halo and as soon as those opening sh bars start, then I'm back in Glasgow in the eighties and I'm happy.
Speaker 1
You run that city
Speaker 1
You're her real major
Speaker 1
Superstars in the Rome Private Movie
Speaker 1
Play just like children.
Speaker 1
Lies and take her.
Speaker 1
Lisa she has never
Presenter
That was Texas and Halo. Tell me, Catherine Granger, what age were you when you rode competitively for the first time?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Uh I didn't start rowing properly till I went to university, so I was seventeen when I went to Edinburgh University, and then rowing kind of found me and I competed as a novice in my first year. The first two years of my rowing career were not illustrious, I have to say. But at the end of my third year, when I'd learned to do it properly, I rowed for Scotland, and then at the end of my fourth year, I got into the British team.
Presenter
It's worth reminding people that Britain's success in world rowing really began with you. It was in Milan in nineteen ninety seven at the Under Twenty Three World Championships. You took a gold there. You were the first ever British women rowers team at an international event to do that.
Presenter
Once you got a taste of it.
Presenter
Was that it? You just, I'm in, I'm in. Well, twenty years old, I can't really deny it, can I? It's a bit addictive. How did it change your relationship with yourself?
Speaker 1
Uh
Dame Katherine Grainger
Just I'm in
Dame Katherine Grainger
Right.
Dame Katherine Grainger
I gave me a huge amount of confidence. Did you lack confidence? Well, I didn't think I well, in some ways, yeah, I probably did. I just wanted to see how good I could be at it. But I was incredibly lucky with the timing because there'd been loads of incredible women who'd gone before me in this sport. Big names, but just hadn't had the big medals. And, you know, the national lottery funding came in in 1997, the same year I started. And because I was successful from the first year, I was funded from that point. And I've stood on the shoulders of so many giants from the past who unfortunately never got the chance I got.
Presenter
Did you lack confidence?
Presenter
One of those other female world sporting greats, Billie Jean King, was once asked about the difference between involvement and commitment, and she said it's like ham and eggs. You know, the chicken is involved but the pig's committed. And I'm wondering you know, there are lots of people at a certain level who do well.
Speaker 2
It's not
Speaker 1
Uh
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Presenter
And then there are people like you.
Presenter
Was there a point at which you decided this is all and nothing else matters?
Dame Katherine Grainger
There was a point when I was back in Edinburgh as a student.
Dame Katherine Grainger
And it was still early on in my career before I knew I could become international, but I was going for the senior team, the university, and I was absolutely convinced I was good enough to make the senior team. And I went to the meeting, and they had 16 names who'd made the team, and they read it out in order. I remember hearing the first group, and I wasn't in that, and I thought I was quite disappointed. So I must be in the second group, and I didn't make that. And they went all the way down, and I didn't make any of the top 16. And then I said, well, what happens now? And they said, well, we've put together a fifth group of four who are sort of, I mean, at the time they called it a bit of a remedial group, who were just going to come and have fun. And that was me. And I started, I was in Edinburgh, stormed out of the meeting, a kind of combination of shame and rage and disappointment and frustration, walked up Arthur's seat. I kind of got to the top of this hill. It's very melodramatic now. And I was just in tears. And I remember thinking, I will never put myself in a position again where I got it so wrong. And I promised myself there and then I would never again overestimate my abilities or my expertise or how good I thought I was. And I generally came down Arthur's seat a little bit changed.
Dame Katherine Grainger
It did humble me and gave me humility in all the right way, and I don't think I've ever lost that the rest of my career.
Presenter
So let's call that the Red Rag to the Bool moment, shall we?
Presenter
Let's have some more music, Catherine Granger. Um we're on your sixth. What
Dame Katherine Grainger
What's this? Well while I'm still in Edinburgh and I'm learning about rowing and learning about life, this song just takes me back to, you know those nights in the clubs at university and everyone's like, you know, arms in the air and singing the words as if they really know what life is like and you have no idea at that point what life is like, but you sing it as if you know. And this is The Water Boys and the Hull of the Moon.
Speaker 1
Camon bowls, palaces and fears, trumpets, towers and scenery, wide oceans full of tears, flags, rags, ferry boats, cinodars and scars, every precious dream and vision, underneath the stars, yes, you climb the ladder, with a wind in your sails, you came like a comet.
Speaker 1
Lazing your trail to head
Speaker 1
Too far.
Speaker 1
Tisson.
Speaker 1
You saw the horse moon.
Presenter
That was The Hole of the Moon by The Water Boys. Catherine Granger, 2006 was one of your many important years. You were belatedly awarded the World Championship Gold Medal for the quadruple skulls. It only happened after the Russian crew were disqualified. One team member had been taking, I think, testosterone. At the time, how did you feel to have been
Presenter
essentially cheated out of that triumphant moment of winning.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Oh, it was desperately sad. And the big thing for us was so in 2005 we'd won the World Championships, so we were defending the World title. 2006 was at Dorney Lake. You know, it was the first time a lot of my friends and family had been able to travel and watch, and we were reigning champions, and we were favourites, and this is the moment that everyone had come to see us winning the world title on our home ground. The Russians were the big opposition in the final, and we were leading, and it was quite a battle towards the end, and they just pulled ahead at the finish and beat us, and there was this kind of hush fell on the crowd. One of my godsons was there, and he had a sort of face painted in Union Jack, and had come to cheer, and he was too young to really know what
Dame Katherine Grainger
Losing meant, but he was aware that the people in the crowd were so upset he started crying. And I've got this photo of this sort of tiny little face of Union Jack with just streaks running through of tears. Did you smell a rat? Not at the time. No, because I think that's not your first thought. Your first thought was not, oh, they must have cheated to have beaten us. It was like, what did we do wrong? We must have, you know, we weren't good enough. And that's hard to deal with, because we went into a very dark patch over the winter of the four of us in the boat all trying to say where we'd fallen short and why we weren't good enough and why we'd failed and why we had disappointed. It felt like we'd disappointed everyone. And it took about five months for the news to come out that there was a positive test and that they were going to be stripped of their medals. And it was the it's just the strangest of feelings because you know, suddenly someone just tells you in the corner of a gym you're now world champions. Nobody got to see the moment. No one who travelled or paid or anything else got to see us. No one got to hear the national anthem. There's also incredible anger that suddenly this Russian team had brought basically our sport into disrepute and ruined that moment. And you just don't get it back. We got the medal back, but it doesn't replace anything else.
Presenter
One of the other uncommon things about you is that you have had this uh academic achievement running in parallel with your rowing career. Your PhD is in homicide sentencing.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Yeah.
Presenter
Why does that interest you?
Dame Katherine Grainger
I did a master's at Glasgow University and the dissertation I did that was on psychopaths. And then my PhD looked into when people commit what we consider in this society as the worst crime, far end of murder, people get sentenced for the rest of their lives. And to me, it kind of challenges everything about humanity and it challenges not just the behaviour of the person who's committed that crime, but the response of the public, everything from the interplay with the judges and the sentencing, especially the taboos with the media reporting of it, the public's reaction that is often stirred up by external forces and about why we punish in the way we do and if there is such a thing as redemption in those worst case scenarios. It was just fascinating looking at sort of why people do the things they do, whether it's the crime itself or the response to crime.
Presenter
And you're interested in extremes, it strikes me. Apparently so, apparently so.
Presenter
Let's hear your next piece of music. Tell me about this then.
Dame Katherine Grainger
I moved down from Scotland in 1999 and I had to live at the time the rowing base was in Marlowe, which was just along the river from Henley on Thames. And I remember going into Henley. It was the first time I'd been there when it hadn't been the regatta on, but it was packed, it was absolutely packed. And then around the corner, this huge sort of black hearse came around the corner with these two black horses with the big plumes up. And then as the hearse drew alongside it, the side in flowers said Dusty. And I had by accident stumbled into Dusty Springfield's funeral and there was too many people to go into the church and they piped out the funeral across the people gathered. And I heard her a lot growing up. My mum used to play her. And you go back and hear the voice and you think there was no one who did it like Dusty. And this one is a nice good girl power song called You Don't Own Me.
Speaker 1
You down on me
Speaker 1
I'm not just one of your many toys. You don't own me.
Speaker 1
Don't say I can't go with other boys
Speaker 1
And don't tell me what to do And don't tell me what to say And please when I go out with you Don't put me on display
Speaker 1
You don't owe me
Presenter
Dusty Springfield, you don't only me, I catch and granger
Presenter
In everything that I have read and found out about you before today, I
Presenter
Can't really find anything about your personal life.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Tell me about it, will you? It's probably'cause I don't have a very successful one, if I'm honest, Kirsty. I suppose I really have devoted myself in probably every way to my sport for the last twenty years, and I've had a personal life running alongside it occasionally, but not very successfully. So maybe that's the next area I can move into now.
Presenter
Rio, of course, you you got a silver famously in Rio, that was the last Olympics. And, as you say, twenty years of your life you have dedicated to this sport, and I am
Presenter
Wondering and not a little bit worried that ending your career on a silver at an Olympic Games just won't seem like enough.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Uh it
Dame Katherine Grainger
The silver in Rio was without a doubt the hardest of my five Olympic medals to win. Now, absolutely, there's part of me that is a little bit dissatisfied because we almost pulled off the ultimate coup of actually winning the title. So it does irritate me a little bit, but I can live with it. And so, what's next?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Oh, that's not the easy question.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Yeah, so I've accepted that I won't go back and do any more in a boat but with that comes liberation and comes excitement and I feel like I'm sixteen again when I don't know what to do with my life but I want to do something and I'm excited and nervous and slightly daunted and terrified at the same time as being you know just looking forward to it. I just I don't know what the answer is yet though.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Yeah.
Presenter
You have to be a tough cookie to endure and to reach the level that you have in sports. Desert Island Discs has been going now for seventy five years. As we cast you away to the island, are you somebody who you think, you know, you're pretty self reliant? You'll cope, you'll you'll manage?
Dame Katherine Grainger
I I'm very self-reliant and I'm quite capable and I think I'll be fine. I'll enjoy a bit of peace and quiet for a little while and I will I think I'll cope with the the physical challenges on an island. I think you will. Well I'd be dead within hours of malnutrition because I'm an awful cook and I wouldn't cope with that side of things and everyone who's listening who knows me will be laughing and with understanding at that point.
Presenter
I think you will
Presenter
Let's hear your final piece, Catherine Granger. What is it?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Well, clearly for for the the Olympics has dominated my life. And I want to do something that somehow encapsulated all the Olympics. And this song was played at the closing ceremony of twenty twelve, which was my most amazing moment. And it's Elbow One Day Like This.
Speaker 1
Who's hardly careful?
Speaker 1
I don't know I see the light Yeah, I am with you halfway Just don't know what to say anyway
Speaker 1
It's looking like a beautiful day
Presenter
For every single Olympic memory that you have, that encapsulates them all, Catherine. That was Elbow and one day like this. The moment has come, then. I'm going to send you to this island. Before you go, I'm going to give you the books. You get the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and you can take another book along. What's yours going to be?
Dame Katherine Grainger
I'm going to take a book of quotations. I get teased relentlessly. I I live by quotes. I've I use them as inspiration, I use them as motivation, I use them as talking points. And it would just give me thoughts for as long as I was on the island. I'd have company with people and their amazing words. And a luxury too. What's yours?
Presenter
Gonna be.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Right, this luxury is because I generally, even even now, even off my island, I find this a luxury. I would love to take, if it's possible, the Sunday papers.
Presenter
You're a competitive sportswoman and you don't want to cheat and I'm not going to let you cheat. So I'm not going to give you the current Sunday papers delivered to your island.
Dame Katherine Grainger
It was delivered to Europe.
Presenter
You can't have something that keeps you in touch with the current world. Okay. You can take then an archive of Sunday papers of your lifetime. I'm going to let you do that, but I can't let you take an indefinite amount of Sunday papers, and certainly not ones that are current and into the future.
Dame Katherine Grainger
So I can go backwards but not forwards? Yes. This is what you see, I I've just finished rowing and I spent my life rowing looking backwards, and now I promised myself I'd only look forwards. So this is difficult. But I will take the archive with with your blessing and I will catch up on all the news I never read in the last forty years. Okay, that's fine by me. And which one disc would you save?
Dame Katherine Grainger
Ah, this is I think I've changed why I've sat here actually. Um I'm going to take Elvis with me.
Presenter
Ah, yeah.
Dame Katherine Grainger
Mm.
Presenter
Dame Catherine Granger, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you.
Dame Katherine Grainger
I've loved it.
Presenter
You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website, bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.
Dame Katherine Grainger
This is the B B C.
Presenter asks
How did your world change after [winning gold in London 2012]?
It changed, certainly externally, massively. You know, Anna and myself, we had a fantasy come to this dream of the Olympic gold, the ultimate in Olympic sport. We'd achieved what we'd been aiming for. And it's an incredible driving force in your life to be chasing something like Olympic success. But you are aware, you know, you're not saving lives, you're not doing anything that really could have impact and meaning. And that's always been important for me in my life. And I think the wonderful thing after London was actually the response from the public. You know, I got incredible letters and emails and messages from complete strangers saying that I had changed their lives and they'd been inspired and you know some people had got over depression and some people you know people who had very personal meaningful stories that actually watching me and Anna sitting in a boat going backwards actually did have a positive impact and it reassured me that maybe it's not just a selfish pastime.
Presenter asks
We often hear elite sportsmen and women say there have been so many sacrifices. Can you explain to me why that sacrifice is worth it?
I I have a thing where I I don't like talking about a sacrifice. ... Sacrifice is too grand a word for it. It's a choice. No one made me, no one forced me into it. It was absolutely my life choice, and I don't regret any of it. You know, I've missed weddings, I've missed birthdays, I've missed funerals, I've missed spending time with my family, especially when you feel it's important to be with them. And that's hard. It's not a regret, but you look back and you go, That's the thing that I would change if I could. But I know my family have been so supportive of me that they totally understood every step. You know, when I stood in the podium, it was awful not to be able to share it with my grandparents at that point, but I also, you know, part of me hopes they were part of that medal too.
Presenter asks
Was there a point at which you decided this [sport] is all and nothing else matters?
There was a point when I was back in Edinburgh as a student. ... And it was still early on in my career before I knew I could become international, but I was going for the senior team, the university, and I was absolutely convinced I was good enough to make the senior team. And I went to the meeting, and they had 16 names who'd made the team, and they read it out in order. I remember hearing the first group, and I wasn't in that, and I thought I was quite disappointed. So I must be in the second group, and I didn't make that. And they went all the way down, and I didn't make any of the top 16. And then I said, well, what happens now? And they said, well, we've put together a fifth group of four who are sort of, I mean, at the time they called it a bit of a remedial group, who were just going to come and have fun. And that was me. And I started, I was in Edinburgh, stormed out of the meeting, a kind of combination of shame and rage and disappointment and frustration, walked up Arthur's seat. I kind of got to the top of this hill. It's very melodramatic now. And I was just in tears. And I remember thinking, I will never put myself in a position again where I got it so wrong. And I promised myself there and then I would never again overestimate my abilities or my expertise or how good I thought I was. And I generally came down Arthur's seat a little bit changed. ... It did humble me and gave me humility in all the right way, and I don't think I've ever lost that the rest of my career.
Presenter asks
Are you somebody who you think, you know, you're pretty self reliant? You'll cope, you'll you'll manage [on the island]?
I I'm very self-reliant and I'm quite capable and I think I'll be fine. I'll enjoy a bit of peace and quiet for a little while and I will I think I'll cope with the the physical challenges on an island. I think you will. Well I'd be dead within hours of malnutrition because I'm an awful cook and I wouldn't cope with that side of things and everyone who's listening who knows me will be laughing and with understanding at that point.
“I'm not a great loser, I have to admit.”
“I don't like talking about a sacrifice. ... Sacrifice is too grand a word for it. It's a choice. No one made me, no one forced me into it. It was absolutely my life choice, and I don't regret any of it.”
“I will never put myself in a position again where I got it so wrong. And I promised myself there and then I would never again overestimate my abilities or my expertise or how good I thought I was.”
“I suppose I really have devoted myself in probably every way to my sport for the last twenty years, and I've had a personal life running alongside it occasionally, but not very successfully. So maybe that's the next area I can move into now.”
“The silver in Rio was without a doubt the hardest of my five Olympic medals to win. Now, absolutely, there's part of me that is a little bit dissatisfied because we almost pulled off the ultimate coup of actually winning the title. So it does irritate me a little bit, but I can live with it.”