Sir Philip Craven

Sir Philip Craven0:00

This is the BBC.

Presenter0:04

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons, the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:15

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter0:39

My castaway this week is the President of the International Paralympic Committee, Sir Philip Craven. He is uniquely qualified for the role, having actually been there, seen it, done it, got the medals. A world champion wheelchair basketball player in his day, he seems to have applied that same relentless, goal-orientated, dogged determination to running the Paralympics, lauded for transforming the movement from a disability sports organisation into

Presenter1:06

A sports organisation. His Lancashire childhood of playing cricket and climbing trees changed when, aged just 16, he broke his back in a rock climbing accident. He used sport as his rehab, but firmly believes that Paralympic sport can transform not just individuals but society. He says.

Presenter1:25

I never felt I was rebuilding my life. I always felt I was continuing my life. It was sport that did it, provided that bridge, that vehicle, where I could get good at something. That's so important with everybody, whether you have an impairment or you don't. So, Sir Philip, welcome. Not rebuilding, but continuing your life then. You've used a wheelchair for fifty years now, I think. How have you seen people's attitude to you as a wheelchair user change in that half century?

Sir Philip Craven1:45

Then

Sir Philip Craven1:55

Well, maybe I've had to get, uh, in the last ten, fifteen years, a little bit less angry with people. Uh, you know, this does he take sugar.

Presenter2:03

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven2:03

attitude and that uh radio

Presenter2:05

That's her head on the side.

Sir Philip Craven2:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, it it still happens occasionally, but not all that often. So but when it happened, it happened. You sort people out and then you move on because uh I don't think of those things until they

Presenter2:06

Yeah, yeah, you know.

Sir Philip Craven2:17

Presented in front of me. You know, I'm just a person living a life and that's it.

Presenter2:23

You talk frequently about perception and the power of the Paralympics as you see it to challenge our perception of people who are living with disability.

Sir Philip Craven2:30

Yeah.

Presenter2:34

It strikes me every time I read that that you don't see this as a sporting movement, you see the Paralympics as something much bigger. Would that be fair?

Sir Philip Craven2:40

One of the things that happens if you have an accident or if you're born with an impairment, then people do look.

Sir Philip Craven2:47

At you, that you're different, and so you have to prove that you're not and that you're capable. And you need something where you can stick your chest out and say, This is me, I'm here. And I think that that's what sport can do. I grew up from 16 with the Paralympic movement and how I thought it should be, and I couldn't stand the fact when I kept hearing the D word because I don't have a disability, I'm me.

Presenter3:14

I've used it a couple of times already then. Do you hate the D-word? Does it bug you?

Sir Philip Craven3:17

doesn't bug me, but I think that it's up to the individual. If they want to say that they've got a disability, that's up to them. I don't. You know, I use wheels instead of legs and get on with my life, and that's it.

Presenter3:29

You represented your country then, I think, at five Paralympic Games, 1972 to 1988.

Sir Philip Craven3:33

Yeah.

Presenter3:35

You know, wheelchair basketball, I mean, it's explosive, it's confrontational. Are you are you quite a pugnacious person by nature?

Sir Philip Craven3:38

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven3:41

Well, you better ask others about that. But the first thing I really enjoyed about wheelchair basketball was probably defence, sorting out the opposition. You may not have heard of the player classification system, but I'm paralyzed from just below the chest down. So you're meeting up with players who've only lost a foot. They have an amazing sitting balance advantage in the chair. So it's great to, I wouldn't say take them out, but control them in defence. And then we move, of course, great attack comes out of defence, and therefore all the skills that you can learn. I mean, to begin with, you know, there you are, you're in your chair. Somebody throws you the ball. If you're stationary, that's fine. But if you're moving, then what the heck do you do? Because you've got to take your hands off the wheels, catch the ball. Then what you do with it? You put it on your lap. And if you're in a game situation, then somebody whips it off your lap. So then you've got to learn to push the chair while dribbling the ball. I'm a bit biased. Cricket's my number one sport, by the way, but wheelchair basketball is amazing.

Presenter4:38

It is hugely engaging and entertaining to watch, I must say. Let's go to your list of discs then, Sir Philip Craven. Tell me about your first one.

Sir Philip Craven4:40

Entertaining to watch, I must say.

Sir Philip Craven4:45

Well, Elbow, you know, I heard this song and I thought, who's playing that? One day like this, but I always think of it as beautiful day, actually. And then I found out they were from Manchester, so that had to be good. And then this was played at the Olympics, not at the Paralympics. Still, it's this anthem, it's what is a beautiful day and what makes a beautiful day. And it's far more than just the weather. You know, it's people primarily, in my view. And so this fits perfectly. Let's kick off with this.

Speaker 45:13

We behave that way.

Speaker 45:19

These are words I never say I could only think it most beloved.

Speaker 45:30

Oh, anywhere.

Speaker 45:34

It's looking like a beautiful day

Presenter5:40

That was Elbow and One Day Like This. At twenty sixteen then, Sir Philip Crafen hasn't exactly been the quietest of years for you. Let's start with Paralympic Team G B's showing at Rio.

Speaker 45:49

Yeah.

Presenter5:49

264 athletes, 64 golds, 39 silver, 44 bronze. Of everything you saw at the Paralympics, what was your personal highlight? What was the moment when you thought?

Sir Philip Craven5:55

Yeah.

Presenter6:00

I'll count this one as a success.

Sir Philip Craven6:01

Well, I didn't see it, but I think Johnny Peacock uh retaining the hundred metres and uh and the fact that he was definitely not the favourite and uh I think that's just a great achievement. Good on him.

Sir Philip Craven6:15

Yeah.

Presenter6:15

Just a few weeks before the Rio Paralympics was due to begin, you of course more than anybody will be aware of the headlines that preceded it, headlines saying that the whole thing was not going to happen, that there was this enormous funding crisis and that the money simply wasn't there for the Paralympics to take part.

Sir Philip Craven6:20

BAP

Sir Philip Craven6:23

The headline

Sir Philip Craven6:30

For the

Presenter6:32

That was what we read in the newspapers. You were there on the ground in Rio. How uh precarious did the situation get?

Sir Philip Craven6:39

Well, it's absolutely true. About two weeks before the opening ceremony of the Olympics, so mid-July, the CEO of the organising committee, Sidney Levy, who gets on well with our CEO, Chavi Gonzalez, phoned him up and said, Look, Chavi, there's not a lot of money in the in our bank account and we're pretty sure that's going to all be used on the Olympics. There'll be nothing left for the Paralympics. That's how it was. And so then we had to get to work.

Presenter7:04

What did you do?

Sir Philip Craven7:05

Find new money from the acting federal government, of course, because Jill Marusef was being impeached at the time. There was a huge

Presenter7:12

There was a huge political crisis there.

Sir Philip Craven7:13

And also money from the city. But then we came up against legal barriers because a judge slapped an injunction on both the city and the acting federal government. They couldn't transfer any money to the organising committee unless the organising committee opened their books. So our vice president, Andrew Parsons, who sounds English but is Brazilian, then went to work at raising this injunction and a similar thing that was affecting the city and transferring money.

Presenter7:42

There was also this exclusion of uh the Russian Paralympic team due to doping. At the time you said their meddles over morals mentality disgusts me.

Sir Philip Craven7:46

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven7:52

Mm-hmm.

Presenter7:53

Those are very harsh words.

Sir Philip Craven7:54

It's true.

Sir Philip Craven7:56

Once you start intentionally breaking the rules, and that's someone in Russia, and our member is the Russian Paralympic Committee, so that is the only organization that we could take action against with the suspension that we invoked. And if we don't take a firm action when state-sponsored doping is proven, then

Sir Philip Craven8:21

We're going to be in trouble.

Presenter8:22

Channel 4 of course screened the Paralympics over 700 hours of coverage and there was a jaw-dropping T V trail entitled We Are the Superhumans that was screened before and during. Anybody who has seen it will surely never forget it, looking at Paralympians and people with not I I don't want to use the word disability impairments.

Sir Philip Craven8:24

Over seven.

Speaker 48:36

Yeah

Sir Philip Craven8:42

Yeah, they're not going to be able to do it.

Presenter8:43

Doing all sorts of things, whether it's playing guitars or playing drums or going to the bottom of the middle of the

Sir Philip Craven8:44

Yeah, it's

Sir Philip Craven8:47

Looking after their babies or looking whatever it has to be.

Presenter8:49

Do you have any concerns?

Presenter8:53

that those sort of and they did look superhuman in in some of the shots those portrayals of people with impairments then can make people feel as though, well, I'm not quite living up to that. I'm just I'm having trouble getting up the stairs.

Sir Philip Craven8:57

The shorts

Speaker 48:57

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven9:06

Just maybe like Olympians can do to people who are walking around on two good legs and two good eyes and two good ears or whatever. But no, I don't. The only thing that I don't agree with is putting the word super and human together to make one word. What I would sooner have it as is super humans. So very good humans who are fantastic at sport.

Presenter9:26

Time for some more music, Sir Philip. Tell me about this, your second one.

Sir Philip Craven9:30

Well, not fade away by the stones. This takes me back really to my brother, my brother listening to Buddy Holly particularly. And of course, this is a Buddy Holly song, it's not a stones song. And I remember we used to listen to Radio Luxembourg until our radiogram blew up. I started buying singles when I was about 12, I think, and you got three for a pound. They were six and eight each. And this wasn't my first one, it was about my third.

Speaker 39:56

Say how it's gonna be

Speaker 310:00

Gonna give your love to me

Speaker 310:04

I'm gonna love you by the day.

Speaker 310:13

Yeah.

Speaker 310:17

My love pink is in a candle

Speaker 310:21

Try to show it and it drives you better.

Presenter10:24

That was Rolling Stones and Not Fade Away. So, Sir Philip Craven, you were born in Bolton in 1950. You were the second of two boys. Tell me a bit about your parents, Hilda and Herbert.

Sir Philip Craven10:29

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven10:33

My dad was he was only five foot two, but I think he liked the odd fight, you know, and so did I. And when I was younger, I was a little bit taller than him. And uh

Presenter10:42

Not with each other though, you went

Sir Philip Craven10:44

No, no, no, not with my brother either, because he was quite a lot older than me.

Presenter10:47

He was nine and a half you

Sir Philip Craven10:48

Yeah, nine and a half years older. So when this girl came along and took him away from me in a way when I was eight or and then they got married and all that, I really felt that I'd lost a brother in a way. And my mum was maybe a a a far quieter person, but she gave the balance to the family, I think.

Presenter11:05

And in their early married life, and in your early childhood, they had run a florist in Bolton. And I'm wondering.

Sir Philip Craven11:08

Yeah.

Speaker 411:09

Uh

Sir Philip Craven11:10

Yeah.

Presenter11:12

Post-war Bolton was full of austerity and presumably, you know, people were still almost on rations.

Speaker 411:13

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven11:13

It was full of

Sir Philip Craven11:17

Yeah.

Presenter11:17

Yeah. Did they make a reasonable living at that?

Sir Philip Craven11:19

Yeah, he was the manager of this flower shop in Farnworth, which is just to the south of Bolton. And then he bought it in 1955 and therefore he became the owner. But he always used to give really good value for money. He never made masses of money, but he made enough money to have a reasonable life, you know. But he was passionate about that. And when he was younger, he loved chemistry, and he could have gone to Cambridge.

Presenter11:24

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven11:43

to study chemistry. He was smart, wasn't he? But he decided yeah, but he decided to be a florist'cause that was his love.

Presenter11:45

He was smart, was he?

Presenter11:50

Did you have a sense when you were very young of what your parents hoped for for you? Was that discussed?

Sir Philip Craven11:54

I think like all parents, they want their children to maybe have more opportunity than themselves. And I think that's a great thing. And I think that's so alive today also. And so that's in fact what I did. But going to Bolton school, it gave me that opportunity to think freely. And especially when I had my accident, you know, I just went back there. Fortunately, they had a lift. And I just carried on with my studies.

Presenter12:17

Let's take a break for some more music, Sir Philip Craven. Tell me about this. It's your third.

Sir Philip Craven12:19

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven12:22

When I went to university, I started to buy a lot of LPs and I thought I'd better sort of dabble in classical music and then I sort of fell in love with this area of Central Europe. This piece of music is all about life starting, this river starting as you'll hear it, and then it comes down the mountainside and then expands into a bigger piece of water. And it's all about life developing.

Presenter13:49

Viltevo from Mavlast by Smetna, performed there by the Vienna Philharmonic, conducted by Herbert von Carrian. So, Sir Philip Craven, the summer of 1966 we'd seen England win the World Cup, and then after that there had been the Commonwealth Games, not long finished in Jamaica. And then you had an accident, and it was an accident that, as we know, would change the course of your life and everything that came thereafter. Can you tell me what you remember of what happened at the time?

Sir Philip Craven14:13

Yeah, I was with some friends and we went up Wilton Quarries. We were going to go and climb. And it had been raining and there was a bit of a stream coming down this severe climb and they said, We're not leading that. I said, Well, I'll lead it, don't you worry about that. But I really wasn't trained as I should have been. And I put some big brass nuts in the cracks as I went up this, about 30 feet it was. And I got right to the top, and there was a chalkstone, in other words, a boulder wedged at the top. And I put about three-quarters of my weight on it, I suppose. Didn't budge, and when I put my whole weight on it, out it came, out came the nuts, and I ended up 10 meters down on my hands and feet as it turned out. But because the slope was sloping at the bottom, I did a backward somersault. I blacked out by then and landed on my back, and that's what broke my back. And I stood up again, partially. And then, of course, that's probably what severed the spinal cord. I don't know. And I felt I was dying because I was windy because I'd never experienced being windy before. I spent the night at the Bolton Infirmary, and then I went to the spinal unit in Southport, and I saw wheelchair basketball being played outside within two days of having my accident.

Presenter15:30

What, you saw it from your room, did

Sir Philip Craven15:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And something just clicked. That's what became my life, really.

Presenter15:35

You were sixteen when it happened. What did doctors tell you and your parents at the time?

Sir Philip Craven15:36

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven15:39

I don't know what they told my parents, um, but it was pretty obvious to me that uh I was going to end up in a wheelchair'cause my legs weren't moving, I couldn't feel them and uh you know, I was in bed for about eight weeks and uh and then I got up in a chair and uh

Sir Philip Craven15:53

Took it from there?

Presenter15:54

And how did your parents react to you? You know, they've got this beautiful young healthy boy on the brink of manhood.

Sir Philip Craven15:58

I think it affected my dad rather badly for a time, but he never showed it. But my mum just got to fixing things and uh, you know, I really appreciate that. Um

Sir Philip Craven16:08

I think it was even m more difficult for me because my friends at school were really affected by it. And one guy I know who wasn't really a friend, I don't think he could handle looking at me after I was in a chair rather than when I was on my feet. And even the great Phil Craven, even I didn't want to go out back at home because I was 40 miles away from Southport where the spinal unit was in my chair until I was very good in my chair. So I used to go out in Southport, and my first girlfriends were all from Southport, they weren't from Bolton.

Presenter16:42

I don't think that's something that people think about very often, that it's not just this life changing thing that's happened to you, but then it's the way everybody's responding to you that then also has to be managed by you.

Sir Philip Craven16:53

Yeah, sure. You could even say you soon find out who your friends are.

Presenter16:57

You you were in hospital for four and a half months, as you've mentioned. When you went home, you're still.

Sir Philip Craven17:00

Does it not?

Presenter17:03

The boy you are, and yet all the practicalities have changed. So what happened at home?

Sir Philip Craven17:06

You know, my mum got to it and I had a bed in what we termed the lounge, I think. And we had j a little piece of land which was perfect for the task. And, you know, the the local authority in those days the local authority had funding to help you and they built this bathroom which was perfect, you know.

Presenter17:24

It happening to you at sixteen. Do you think that was important in how you presumably crucial in how you dealt with it?

Sir Philip Craven17:25

Do you think

Sir Philip Craven17:29

Yeah, it was a good age, I think, looking back because I was at school, I didn't have a job, I didn't have a family, I didn't have any real commitments, and I was able to lead a life, you know, and start playing this great sport of wheelchair basketball. And within 18 months, I was at Manchester University. They had the best stand-up team in the they were national champions, not just university champions, but there wasn't an English player in the team. And I trained with them.

Presenter17:59

Did you ever sit there and think?

Sir Philip Craven18:01

Never.

Presenter18:01

Bloody held.

Sir Philip Craven18:02

My wife doesn't believe me, even maybe to this day. But uh n I never did because there were so many new things to learn. You know, some were

Sir Philip Craven18:12

pain in the arse, I can tell you, you know, like it took so much longer to do the things that, um, if I may say most walking around people just do in in minutes, looking after themselves and

Sir Philip Craven18:23

The sports club at Southport was fundamental. I used to go there every Wednesday, I used to play every weekend. That's why I went to Manchester University. I could have gone to Cambridge to read geography, but I said no, where's my team?

Presenter18:36

Let's have some more music. Tell me about your fourth, Sir Philip Craven. What are we going to hear?

Sir Philip Craven18:40

It's the Beatles, it's across the universe, but it's really John Lennon, who's one of my heroes. You know, it's one of the few songs that talks about the universe, and I don't think most people on this planet realise that we're part of the solar system and part of the universe, and that guy did. He was on another planet most of the time, but I'd have loved to have been with him from time to time on that planet.

Speaker 419:03

Worlds are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup They spill wildly as they slip away across the universe

Speaker 419:16

Pools of sorrow, waves of joy are drifting through my opened mind, possessing and caressing me.

Speaker 419:27

Shine Kuru on your day

Presenter19:34

That was the Beatles and across the universe. You were at Manchester University. You were studying geography, but how much of your time was devoted to the library and how much of it was devoted to the very little to geography?

Sir Philip Craven19:38

Yeah, yeah.

Sir Philip Craven19:43

Very little to geography. I I say that I got a first class honours in wheelchair basketball and and scraped through with geography, but I was allowed to go for what I loved doing. You know, I was training two or three hours a day and then an hour swimming on top of that.

Presenter19:57

I mean a big part of student life of course is social life. You are clearly a gregarious character. I mean how did you get around?

Sir Philip Craven20:00

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven20:03

I had a one of those blue invalid cars.

Presenter20:06

Right.

Sir Philip Craven20:06

But I did about hundred thousand miles.

Presenter20:08

But they were little single person cars.

Sir Philip Craven20:09

Oh, they were, but uh you could always uh you could always fit a girl in between your your folded up chair and the tiller bar.

Presenter20:15

Did you?

Sir Philip Craven20:16

Yeah, oh yeah. Well

Sir Philip Craven20:18

Yeah, I don't think they'll prosecute us now, but I think even my wife uh was introduced a couple of times to uh to uh

Presenter20:25

Was that entirely safe?

Sir Philip Craven20:26

Uh pr oh definitely not. When I was at university I took two not too light girls to a party, uh left my chair back at the Hall of Residence and went back for it later and every time we went round a left hand bend the fiberglass was uh there were sparks flying off the fiberglass as we touched the uh so so you know, but this is all part of life, isn't it?

Presenter20:47

Don't try this at home. Let's have some more music, Sir Philip Craven. We are on.

Sir Philip Craven20:48

That's a

Presenter20:51

Your fifth. I think this is a very romantic song. Are you a romantic type?

Sir Philip Craven20:55

Oh, I think so. I do love romance and I believe in it and uh you know, when I fell for this girl in France, I mean, uh when you know when you've fallen in love, my God, doesn't it hit you? Amazing.

Speaker 421:10

I hear the drizzle of the rain

Speaker 421:16

Like a memory in fall

Speaker 421:22

Soft and warm, continuing.

Speaker 421:28

Tapping on my roof and walls

Presenter21:32

Cathy's song from Simon and Garfunkel. So, um, Sir Philip Craven, you've been married to Jocelyn for forty-two years, is it? How did you first meet?

Sir Philip Craven21:39

I'm not sure.

Sir Philip Craven21:42

Well, I went to play wheelchair basketball in France and that happened because we didn't play the French at the Paralympics in 1972 in Heidelberg and we ended up fourth and they ended up fifth and they said they were stronger than we were so we had a rematch in San Malo in September 1972. They beat us by one point. But then I was presented with a contract by the Club Hollande Pique de Kerpap, which was from Brittany in France. I agreed to play for them. I signed the contract and then I couldn't get a work visa because we weren't in the EU. And so that went on until the end of November and I said I'm coming anyway as a tourist and spent the morning in the Commissariat de Police and came out with a grubby card that said I was fit for work. And on the second day I went on a tour.

Sir Philip Craven22:29

Of the centre, the rehabilitation center, where I was going to work as well as play. And I was a sports trainer, and I saw these two French girls, physios, one very tall called Martine, and this wonderful, slightly shorter girl called Jocelyn, fell in love immediately.

Presenter22:47

Immediately.

Sir Philip Craven22:48

I don't know, I don't know.

Presenter22:49

How do you think?

Presenter22:51

And could you speak French to her?

Sir Philip Craven22:52

No, I only could say we and no. I'd done it at to all level. I hated French. I liked German a lot better. And then we went out on New Year's Eve. It lasted ten days. She jilted me. Then I found out later when we got married that she only gave boyfriends about two weeks anyway. So I hadn't even lasted the two weeks. And then we had a Cold War'cause she had the same patience as a physio as I had as a sports trainer. Kept seeing each other. And then it came to the very end when she was the physio to the French team at the first World Championships and I was playing in the British team in Bruges in Belgium. And we beat the French in the final, which was great. I scored one of the last baskets, so I went past the bench.

Speaker 423:32

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven23:33

And then we had the party at night and uh

Sir Philip Craven23:37

We've been together ever since.

Presenter23:38

I'm not saying that Bolton's not a lovely place, but Brittany is particularly nice. Um how did you what warm words did you use to convince Jocelyn that the best thing to do would be to come back to Brittain?

Sir Philip Craven23:49

I don't know. But you know, we were going to get married, and I wasn't earning much in Brittany. And I suppose I was still at that time viewed myself as the main breadwinner I had to be. So I had to go back and get a job. And I ended up getting a job with the National Core Board as a management trainee and worked for them for about 20 years. And so Jocelyn came with me. I remember one winter when I was still training with the NCB, she was in a Victorian house in Doncaster, and my grandmother knitted bed socks for her. It was that cold. But you see, that's the sort of woman she is. Teams start with two.

Sir Philip Craven24:32

Sir Philip Craven.

Presenter24:33

And we've got to fit in the music and so let's go to your sixth channel.

Sir Philip Craven24:36

This was exactly what was going to happen if we hadn't come back together, Jocelyn and me, in Bruges, in, I think it was late April or early May, 73. I was leaving on a jet plane, and that was the pivotal moment in my life as I now look back. It wasn't the accident, it was if I hadn't gone with this girl, then.

Sir Philip Craven24:56

So much of what's happened wouldn't have happened.

Speaker 424:59

So kiss me and smile for me Tell me that you wait for me Hold me like you'll never let me go

Speaker 425:14

I'm leaving on a jet plane. I don't know when I'll be back again.

Speaker 425:22

Oh babe, I hate to go there.

Presenter25:28

That was Peter, Paul, and Mary Ann leaving on a jet plane. We're coming up to the New Year's honours list, of course, the announcements for that. After London 2012, there were some British Paralympians.

Speaker 425:28

That was peaceful.

Speaker 425:34

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven25:34

I'm a

Presenter25:38

who voiced deep-seated concerns at the disparity between the numbers of honours that were being awarded to Olympians compared with Paralympians. What what is your view on that?

Sir Philip Craven25:46

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven25:48

I agree with them. When you think David Weir, um he's just one example, by the way, of what he achieved in London was amazing. I know that he's four years on in Rio.

Sir Philip Craven25:59

But in a way, he did nothing. So he peaked unbelievably. That wasn't because there was no opposition. You know, the Marcel Hoog now, who is really from Switzerland, who's swept the board this year to a great degree. He couldn't do a thing against David Weir in twenty twelve. They probably say, Oh, it's easier to win medals at the Par it's not easier to win medals at the Paralympics than it is at the Olympics. So

Sir Philip Craven26:26

I think I think they're right.

Presenter26:27

And you are a man i in a position of of influence. Uh when you have the ear of people, you know, the people on these honours committees. Do you say that to them? Have you expressed your views clearly?

Sir Philip Craven26:37

No, I've not, because I I'm not sure that that is my position to do it, but I'm expressing it maybe today here on Desert Island Discs, um, because it's the first time maybe I've been asked that question actually. And uh I don't even know who put me forward for a knighthood, and uh I get asked from time to time to put a rec letter of recommendation in. But I agree, and there should be parity now. And there is parity in many areas, so you know, the honours list, uh, honours people, just wake up a bit and let's get it sorted out.

Presenter27:08

Let's have some more music, Sir Philip Craven. We're on your seventh. Tell me about that.

Sir Philip Craven27:12

Alain Stivelle was one of the first Breton singers, songwriters that I got to know when I arrived in Brittany at the end of 72. And his dad used to make Celtic harps. And so this man brought rock into Celtic folk music. And I just got steeped in this mystique of Brittany. And I'm still there.

Presenter28:12

That was Alan Stevell playing Sweet de Montagne. You are a grandfather now, Sir Philip Craven, and your grandchildren are growing up in

Sir Philip Craven28:18

Yeah.

Presenter28:22

In a world that has very, very different ideas about diversity, whether it's physical diversity or ethnic diversity than the one that we grew up in when we were kids, how much do you feel that you have been somebody who's played a crucial part in changing perceptions?

Sir Philip Craven28:29

Mm.

Sir Philip Craven28:39

perceptions on

Presenter28:41

Well, on on the word you don't like, on disability.

Sir Philip Craven28:43

Yeah. I think it's been happening uh maybe in the last fifteen, twenty years that uh you know, I've been my strapline is drop the D word, don't replace it,'cause most people say, Well, what do you use then? Well, you don't use it. You talk about individuals. You know, it's a very political word.

Sir Philip Craven29:00

We're doing it for the disabled, vote for us, you know. Well, people with an impairment can do it for themselves. Drop the D-word, that's my strapline.

Presenter29:08

On your desert island, you are going to be entirely alone. You're going to be responsible for everything.

Sir Philip Craven29:13

Don't like that. I don't like being alone. But anyway, carry on.

Presenter29:17

You like the conviviality, the company of others, the stimulation, yeah.

Sir Philip Craven29:20

I when I couldn't speak French, you know, when I when I first went to France, it took me four months to be able to sp well, I won't say speak it fluently, but I didn't have to translate in my head. And there's nothing more tiring than trying to follow two French people speaking and after ten minutes you wanna go home. And uh

Presenter29:36

So you felt alone there, did you? That gave you a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit

Sir Philip Craven29:38

A little bit, because it's a bit like being sent to Coventry if you can't communicate, you know, and so I'd have to get used to it, wouldn't I?

Presenter29:45

You would. Tell me about your eighth disc then. What are we going to hear?

Sir Philip Craven29:45

Yeah.

Sir Philip Craven29:47

This is Dire Straits and this is theme from Local Hero. Now, whether the film was much good or not, but I view this as an anthem and really I know you can't play all five minutes, but um but I think you should because it's got everything. You know, Mark Knopfler's guitar, it's got saxophone, it's got the Scottish intro which really sets it where it's at.

Presenter30:11

You get the sort of pipes in the

Sir Philip Craven30:12

Yeah, the pipes in the introduction, and uh and but I just love guitar and I love

Sir Philip Craven30:18

Mark Knopfler's guitar and I love diastrates and our kids love diastrates, that's why it's in here.

Speaker 430:29

Oh no,

Speaker 430:39

Uh

Presenter30:53

That was Dire Straits playing part of Going Home from the film soundtrack to Local Hero. So, Sir Philip, it's time now for me to give you the books. You get the Bible, you get the complete works of Shakespeare, and what other book are you going to take?

Sir Philip Craven31:06

Well, I think uh we've not talked about my love for for wine, for French wine and for Burgundy particularly. And so I think I'll take uh my favourite wine guide, the Betane et de Sauve, uh twenty seventeen. Uh um it'll soon be out of date, but um but that'll do for me.

Presenter31:23

Okay, you can have that then as your book. You're allowed a luxury as well.

Sir Philip Craven31:27

That's what

Sir Philip Craven31:28

What I would like to take with me are the back recordings, I don't know how far we can go back, of Testmatch Special.

Presenter31:36

Mm-hmm.

Sir Philip Craven31:36

No. Is that a possibility?

Presenter31:36

Uh

Presenter31:39

It's a tricky one that, because you've got your eight discs. So another recording is is almost straying into not allowed. But I but I think we we've had people who've taken radios before, so I guess we'll give you Testmatch specials somewhere.

Sir Philip Craven31:46

But I

Sir Philip Craven31:51

Okay.

Presenter31:52

Yeah.

Presenter31:54

You can have them then. And if you were to save just one disc from the eight that you've chosen this morning, which one would it be?

Sir Philip Craven32:00

Well, I think my wife uh made it very clear what she thought it should be, and I do agree with her. Uh scene from Local Hero or or Going Home.

Presenter32:08

Going home. The one we've just heard. Yeah, yeah. It's yours. Sir Philip Creighton, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Sir Philip Craven32:09

Yeah, yeah. It's yours.

Sir Philip Craven32:14

I loved it.

Presenter32:56

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio 4.

Sir Philip Craven33:28

This is the B B C.