Yotam Ottolenghi

Speaker 20:00

This is the BBC.

Presenter0:03

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons, the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:14

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter0:37

My castaway this week is the cookery writer and restaurateur Jotam Ottolengi. If there's Zatar spice mix and pomegranate molasses in your kitchen cupboard, then you're already familiar with his reputation as a culinary trendsetter. His dishes surprise and comfort in equal measure. By mixing the tastes of the Mediterranean Middle East with more staple British ingredients, he has won legions of devotees. His eateries are packed, and each new book keenly anticipated. Our current Prime Minister says she prefers his recipes to Delia's.

Presenter1:08

His background is as complex, varied, and intriguing as his food. He was born in Jerusalem to a German mother and Italian father. His grandmother was a spy. And he was headed for the life of a first-rate academic when his obsession with the delicious matured from a hobby to a calling. He says when you feed people, you get an instantaneous reaction, a smile, a kind word, a delighted expression. So welcome, Jotan Ottolengi. Your recipes are notable, not for being complex, actually. They're not technically difficult to make, but they do have often very long lists of ingredients, you know, typically around about anything from 10 to 15 separate ingredients. In your store cupboards, what will we always find if we open it?

Yotam Ottolenghi1:52

Well, you'll find a bunch of spices. There will be cardamom and cinnamon and staranise, some cumin and turmeric, and then you'll have other dry stored ingredients like tahini, orange blossom, rose water. You'd find pomegranate, molasses, the stuff you you kind of mentioned, the staple of the Middle East, but also some Asian ingredients like miso, a couple of sesame oils, mirin. So a bunch of things that really make the food kind of come to life, you know. And for me, having those staples, I'm not trying to prove any point with them. I'm just trying to make the food smile, as I often say. You know, it's it helps the ingredients or the the main things, you know, taste so good.

Presenter2:31

Now, Buna Shimeji mushrooms, don't know if I've said that correctly. Manuri cheese, calaspara rice, these are you know, again, these are things I'm picking out from your recipes. They are not everyday ingredients, they could easily put people off. Do you take personal responsibility for the fact that we are all scattering pomegranate seeds on everything we eat at all times of day and night now?

Presenter2:50

'Cause you started it, I think.

Yotam Ottolenghi2:51

Well, I don't know if I was the first one, but yeah, we do I do it's a it's a great device. If you haven't started, then I urge everybody to start using it. It's delicious, it's sweet, it just brings things to life. And you can put it both on savory and sweet dishes. You can put it on your lamb stew and it makes it l taste and look so much better. So, yeah, I'll take some of that responsibility if you don't mind.

Speaker 22:58

Disney

Presenter3:11

Let's go to the music then, Yotam Otolenge. Tell me about your first one. Why have you chosen this?

Yotam Ottolenghi3:15

This is a song by Joan Baez. My parents, before I was born, they spent quite a few years in America in the 1960s. And my parents have an amazing photo album from their time in the States. And my dad managed to get a photo of Martin Luther King and lots of beautiful places they've been traveling all over. And music as well. So they were listening to Joan Baez and Bob Dylan and all those kind of figures of the 60s. And that symbolizes a big chunk of my childhood.

Speaker 43:48

Highways for gamblers

Presenter3:50

Better use your sense.

Presenter3:55

Take what you have gathered from coincidence.

Presenter4:02

The empty handed painter from your stream

Presenter4:09

Is drawing crazy patterns on your sheet

Speaker 44:17

The sky too is folding under you

Speaker 24:23

And it's all over now, baby.

Presenter4:29

That was Joan Baez, and it's all over now, Baby Blue. So, Yosam, in your book Jerusalem, there are I counted eight pages, including photographs, devoted to Humas. Why is that?

Yotam Ottolenghi4:42

Well, Jerusalem was written by myself and one of my business partners, Samitami. And he's a Palestinian from Jerusalem and I'm a Jew from Jerusalem and we actually have very similar backgrounds. And homos was very much part of our childhood. You eat it all the time, you know, breakfast, lunch and dinner. It goes into a pizza with lots of other delicious things. It's the food of life really in that part of the world.

Presenter5:04

So tell me about your very earliest culinary memories from Jerusalem.

Yotam Ottolenghi5:09

Well, those are so varied and many, but you know, I've got it's in Jerusalem when I was growing up, which is the seventies and the eighties, there was this explosion of foods. And all of a sudden, there was all this amazing produce that came from the West Bank and East Jerusalem for the Palestinian side. So you'd go into East Jerusalem, to the Old City, and you'd see wonderful, you know, baklawa-style cakes, you know, drenched in syrups and beautiful crumbly cakes, and you'd get these wonderful mezze restaurants where you sit down, you get this incredible spread of baba ganoushas and the hummus and the labneys and all those wonderful grilled vegetables and falafel. So it's you kind of have that kind of richness of ingredients and and foods. And that was a very seductive experience for me growing up in Jerusalem.

Presenter5:55

Is it true that your dad's nickname for you was is it Golosso?

Yotam Ottolenghi5:58

Golozzo.

Presenter5:58

Golozzo. Golozzo.

Yotam Ottolenghi5:59

What does Golotso mean? Well, I've tried to figure out for many years now, but it's something like a you know, a greedy a greedy boy or a

Presenter6:00

Mm

Presenter6:07

And you were a greedy boy, but I wasn't.

Yotam Ottolenghi6:08

But

Yotam Ottolenghi6:09

I was a greedy boy. Ah, yeah, I'd love to eat. It sounds terrible now because it's like w why would someone want to be taken to a restaurant at the age of six for their birthday? But I wanted to go to restaurants for my birthday. I really had this kind of i intense passion and and love for food from from very early on.

Presenter6:25

And cooking at home, was it your mother cooking at home, or both your mum and dad?

Yotam Ottolenghi6:28

No, both my parents are really really good cooks. I feel very fortunate to have grown up in a home with kinda I guess my my cooking reflects which is completely kind of mumble jumbo of cuisines. You know a little bit of my dad's Italian background actually quite a bit of it my mum's kind of European background my mum was very very adventurous when I was growing up. They brought from America all sorts of cookbooks from round the world so she would do like Malaysian curries and things that were really in the seventies nobody you know had heard of and still to this day my parents are great cooks and adventurous cooks and I feel very fortunate to have experienced all this when I was growing up as well as this fantastic Palestinian Arabic food that was available throughout my childhood.

Presenter7:10

Let's have some more music, Yotem Otolengi. What is this and why have you chosen it?

Yotam Ottolenghi7:14

Well it's it's it's it's all about the love of chocolate. And this is from a a childhood album called A Kev Sashi Shasa or it translated into the sixteenth sheep. When you can't fall asleep you can't sheep, right? So this is number 16. And it's a compilation of beautiful children's songs by a bunch of really creative, beautiful singers and composers. And the song that I chose called I New Hove, which means I love, and it starts off by I love chocolate. And that's what I listened to with my son Max when we were driving in the car.

Speaker 27:27

This is number one.

Speaker 47:54

Viatic Vesu Kariod Vetutgina.

Speaker 28:07

Pete Shemesh Vetayare, Tekam kama gochavir Nio hev.

Presenter8:15

From the album Merkevi's Ashishasa. That was Ani Oahev. How did I do?

Yotam Ottolenghi8:19

Yeah, you did really, really well, yeah.

Presenter8:19

Really well, yeah. Sort of. Um tell me a bit then about your paternal grandparents. They were exiled from Tuscany and and they built a sort of little Italy in a suburb of Tel Aviv in their home. Just describe that to me.

Yotam Ottolenghi8:30

Yeah.

Yotam Ottolenghi8:32

My parents arrived to Palestine, then Israel now, in 1939, which is just the year when the war broke. But my grandparents were like metropolitan Europeans. They were very middle class, relatively wealthy. So they managed to create a little haven, a little Tuscany in Ahmed Ghan, which is a suburb of Tel Aviv, with a house that even the doorknobs were important from Italy. I mean, it was down to the tiniest of detail. And my grandparents would have like Italian coffee, little espressis, parmesan cheese and anchovy paste in a tube that was being delivered. I mean, it still sparks this memory of going into this house, seeing my grandmother sipping her espresso, making, you know, semolina gnocchi, and it's those kind of evocative smells that are really the smells of a part of my childhood.

Presenter9:24

Uh Yotem, I mentioned in the introduction that your other grandmother was a spy. I heard a little ripple of laughter from you as I said it, but it is indeed true, she was an Israeli spy.

Yotam Ottolenghi9:32

Yeah, my maternal grandmother, who with my grandfather and my mother and her brother, came to Palestine also in 1939 from Berlin, from Germany, at some point in her life, I don't know exactly when, because it's all sh shrouded in secrecy, joined the Mossad, which is the Israeli Secret Service. And I think throughout some of the 50s and 60s and 70s, she worked for the Mossad. My mom didn't know about it. She knew she worked for a government agency. She didn't know what she was doing. But in the 1960s, Adolf Eichmann was hijacked in Argentina and brought over, kidnapped. I don't know what the right term is, but in Argentina and brought over to Israel for trial. And my mom remembers that one day, one Saturday morning, my grandmother told to my grandfather, he's on the plane, something along those lines. And my mother there asked who's and she said, oh, some some friends coming over from Germany or some relative. A couple of days later, no relative arrived, but the news broke out that Eichmann was brought to to Israel. And my mom, you know, put the two things together and then she finally realized that she was her mom was working for the Mossad.

Speaker 210:10

Yeah, yeah.

Presenter10:39

And when did you find out for sure that she played a part in what was one of the pivotal moments of of history at the time?

Yotam Ottolenghi10:46

Yes, well in the eighties I believe a book was published by the person who was ahead of the Mossad at the time describing in detail the operation. And there was one person who my mom told me was actually my grandmother, she wasn't named. She didn't go to Argentina, but she did a lot of the groundwork back in Israel, false documents, etcetera.

Presenter11:07

Let's have some more music, Jotam. Tell me about our next one. It's your third.

Yotam Ottolenghi11:10

This is Paisley Park by Prince. I had all his albums and used to listen to them a lot when I was in secondary school in Jerusalem and I felt like I was being super you know sophisticated for loving Prince. He had sort of that rebellious streak and just he was so cheeky and I just loved everything about him. I still do, especially this track, Paisley Park.

Speaker 411:34

That is no more the fancy track

Speaker 411:42

Colorful beauty bullets head On one side of his sweatband

Speaker 411:48

Yeah.

Speaker 411:51

Smile on their faces it speaks of the fun

Speaker 412:00

Ask where they go and they'll tell you nowhere.

Speaker 412:04

Taking a lifetime easy on the base

Presenter12:09

That was Prince with Paisley Park. And memories for you, Jotem Otolengi, of your sophisticated music tastes as they were growing in your teenage years. Your mother, as well as being this adventurous cook, she worked outside the home as well. She was a head teacher, is that right? And your father was a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, which accounts for the fact that you would travel around the globe with your family.

Speaker 412:16

Uh

Yotam Ottolenghi12:16

T name

Yotam Ottolenghi12:29

Family.

Presenter12:30

An intellectual family, a middle-class family, what were their expectations for you, their son?

Yotam Ottolenghi12:37

The expectations, smartly enough, were never stated, obviously. I think what was made clear to us, to us three children, was that we would probably become academics or at least go to university and do something with our degrees. And it just wasn't really a question. My mum was a math teacher and a head teacher. My dad was a professor of chemistry, and that was our world.

Presenter13:04

You completed your master's thesis in in 1997, having been at Tel Aviv University. Tell me what the title was of your master's thesis.

Yotam Ottolenghi13:12

The I think it was some musings over the ontological status of the photographic image.

Presenter13:18

And you are you have a philosophical bent, you have a philosophical way of looking at things. What was the appeal of philosophy to you? Did you feel that getting to the heart of what it means is an is the importance there?

Yotam Ottolenghi13:31

Yeah, I love understanding things and I love explaining things to myself to other people. The process of kind of analyzing and reaching a conclusion is very attractive for me. And when I went to university, I felt that's something I really like doing. I love reading something, I love reading a book or a text and discussing it and understanding it fully and giving it a context. And I still love this. When I was studying at university, it was a great opportunity to kind of exercise my intellect and I really, really enjoy that.

Presenter14:02

And when you were doing your degree in at the beginning of the nineties, I think nineteen ninety one was when you moved in with with your your boyfriend then. That was in Jerusalem, was it, or in Tel Aviv?

Speaker 214:12

In Tel Aviv.

Presenter14:12

In 1991, in Tel Aviv, to be living with your boyfriend, was that something you could do openly? Was it accepted?

Yotam Ottolenghi14:21

Yeah, surprisingly it was accepted. I mean in a small bit of Tel Aviv of the 1990s it felt kind of quite normal. Did it? Yeah. The difference between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem is night and day. You know Jerusalem is a kind of a historical place with a lot of people that are kind of immersed in history and religion and orthodoxy and Tel Aviv is this more secular open place that kind of reaches out to the rest of the world. So to move from Jerusalem from Tel Aviv is kind of the same thing to do if you're a young gay adult. You know it's it's it would have been impossible in Jerusalem of the nineties to live out as a as a gay person.

Presenter14:57

Let's have some more music, Yotam. Uh we are on your force.

Yotam Ottolenghi15:01

Yeah, this is by the Water Boys and I am I have an older sister and I had a younger brother who Iftach who is two years younger than I am and he was killed in in 1992 during his military service. It was a drill and it was what you would call friendly fire and he Iftach was a very special person in the sense that he was very vivacious. He was a beautiful looking guy and in secondary school he was kind of the person everybody looked up to because he was melodramatic and dramatic and could act and had everything going for him, lots and lots of opportunities. But unfortunately he died and the Water Boys were the band that he liked the most when he was killed. And I chose this song because it is a song about opportunities and with him it's all missed opportunities. So I thought this would be appropriate.

Speaker 416:07

You've been suffering from a few too many plans that have gone wrong in your channel, member.

Speaker 416:19

How fine your life used to be

Speaker 416:24

Uh

Presenter16:24

Running around thinking you drum

Presenter16:27

Like it's 1973

Presenter16:33

Well that was

Speaker 416:35

That's the river

Presenter16:35

Uh

Speaker 416:38

This is

Speaker 216:38

Is the sea?

Presenter16:41

Uh

Speaker 416:41

Uh

Presenter16:41

That was the Water Boys with This Is the See I'm Chosen you said, Yotam Ottolengi, because it reminds you so much of your brother. It was his favorite band and he was killed in a a military accident when he was doing his military service. You you went to Amsterdam in your you would m would that was that your mid-twenties? Yeah. Was that was that related to to getting away from the tragedy of what had happened, or?

Yotam Ottolenghi17:01

This was a few years later, but I guess there was a certain intensity growing around me when I was in my early twenties and I felt living in Israel politically it was becoming a bit more difficult. I mean there was a moment where it seemed to be going in the right direction, but then it turned the other way very quickly after the assassination of Rabbin, the Prime Minister. And on a more personal note, I feel I think I needed a a breath of fresh air at that moment. And my brother has died. I wasn't completely out to my whole family. And it was just I needed time away.

Presenter17:42

That is almost it strikes me, and I I wonder if I'm right, um a a more complex thing to be out to certain members of your family and not others.

Yotam Ottolenghi17:51

Yeah, it took me time until I could actually speak to my father. I mean, the difficulty was really after my my brother died, I felt a lot of responsibility for his well-being. And my dad is a very s he's a very gentle person, extremely loving, and I d I felt that I sh I didn't want to hurt him. And yeah, that was very difficult. And I guess it it was a little bit easier to be away. But a few years later I did speak to him and and things end up being patched up quite surprisingly easily because he was very uh loving and he he was very was very war ver very happy about not very happy about it, but he was he was very supportive and and I think I um I was happily surprised to see that he was absolutely fine.

Speaker 218:31

You can easily

Presenter18:46

And you had completed your master's thesis in Amsterdam, and then this very bright young man who had been on an elite programme at a university and was probably headed likely to Yale or somewhere of similar esteem decided that he wasn't going to do that, and instead of a life of the head, he was going to have a life of the hands. You went to to train in in pastry work, which is I mean, hugely demanding a great discipline and entirely different from pursuing philosophy. Why?

Yotam Ottolenghi19:05

I mean

Yotam Ottolenghi19:11

I think I never questioned going to university. And although I had a really great time at university and enjoyed working with my head, I always had this kind of inkling to do something which isn't that. And I also found university and academy really exhausting. The job was never done. You know, you would always need to read another paper or write another seminar. And I remember when I did start cooking professionally, and while I was doing Cordon Bleu, I worked in a restaurant in London whipping up egg whites for souffles, quite literally. And when I came back home, I said, wow, this is so refreshing. I've done something that I loved and I finished. It's done. And I don't work in the kitchen anymore in a professional kitchen, but to this day, I find being in the kitchen cooking the most relaxing thing I could do.

Presenter20:04

Let's have some more music, Yotam. Uh what are we gonna hear now? This is your fist?

Yotam Ottolenghi20:07

Tell me about this. Our Kadi Duchin is an Israeli singer of Russian background, and I used to listen to his songs when I was still living in Tel Aviv in Amsterdam. He has the most wonderful voice, a little melancholic, like if you've been listening so far, you'd see that I like. But he's also extremely sentimental, so it's those kind of love songs that I could listen to forever. And also, he's slightly marginal because he's a newcomer, because he's got a slight accent. So I always connected to that kind of outsider-ness in him.

Speaker 220:23

But I like

Speaker 420:56

A few now.

Speaker 420:59

Merov Sim Chate Bocha, Bocha, Merov Ergelachek, Roho.

Presenter21:11

That was Arkhadi Duchim singing Marov Avati. So tell me, uh, Yotam, you opened your first deli with your partner, Sami Tamimi, your work partner, in two thousand two in Nottinghill. Um what were you serving that was different from what other delis offered at the time?

Yotam Ottolenghi21:26

So Sammy was in charge of the savory food, the salads, and I was in charge of the cakes, pastries. And I think we just put these kind of this copious kind of generous amounts of food on the table that was just freshly made, really beautifully presented on platters and beautiful plates that we sourced everywhere. And we recreated the kind of the Jerusalem souk effect. You know, it's like piles of beautiful food. And people really warmed up to it. You know, people walked in and thought like, oh my god, this is food like in an art gallery, you know, the way you present it. And it was, you know, wonderful vegetable char grill with beautiful sauces and drizzled with sesame sprinkled with sesame seeds and chopped herbs. I mean, both for Sammy and for me, that was the main drive to create this kind of very generous display, you know, with the giant meringues and lots of beautiful colorful cakes. The idea was that you really kind of create something quite spectacular.

Presenter22:29

And then after the delis have come more delis, and indeed uh a restaurant and also the books. I wonder how you feel about the fact that your books they're not translated into Arabic or Hebrew. Does that does that matter to you?

Yotam Ottolenghi22:42

First bo ever book was translated to Hebrew. I don't think it was a massive success. Whether they're popular in Israel and the Arab world, I think it would have been nice if they were. But I assume that it's quite difficult for those markets, for those places to take that kind of partnership of a Jew and a Palestinian working together and kind of bringing their food back to them. I think it's hard to stomach that an outsider which is a bit like you, but slightly different because we are different because we're not there bringing all that food back. That's my th little theory.

Presenter23:19

And you do, I understand, meet once a week with a group of friends and you discuss politics over breakfast, a good breakfast, I'm sure. You know, there is still this philosophical and very thoughtful brain inside uh this head. When it comes to something like Brexit, you know,

Yotam Ottolenghi23:26

Yeah. Are you f

Presenter23:33

Restaurants and kitchens are typically occupied by a plethora of different nationalities. How do you see it affecting your business?

Yotam Ottolenghi23:38

Yeah.

Yotam Ottolenghi23:40

Well, since it hasn't really come to be, I I'm not quite sure, but I'm I'm very worried because we are by essence a place where these cultures meet. You know, seventy or eighty or I don't know how much with the exact percentage of our employees are not British. And I'm just a bit worried that if we are not going to have that diversity, we're going to lose a lot on the diversity of food that we're exposed to. And for me, as someone who's come here and has been very generously accepted into this country and you know, I ha I've received a massive hug throughout those years with regards to my food and the culture that I bring with me, I think it would be a great loss if other people like me won't be as welcome.

Presenter24:21

Let's have some more music, Yotem Otolengi. We are on your sixth of the morning. Tell me about this choice.

Yotam Ottolenghi24:25

Tell me about this choice. That's uh Nina Simone, uh, which is probably m my favorite artist. I still listen to Nina Simone all the time. And there's something about her voice, the fragility, but like inherent optimism that I just love and she could get away with anything. I mean, sh she's just marvelous.

Speaker 424:45

Here comes the sun, little darling. Here comes the sun, I say it's alright.

Speaker 424:59

So like

Speaker 425:05

Here comes a sun, little darling Here comes the sun, I say it's alright

Speaker 425:18

It's all right.

Speaker 425:24

Little darling, it's been a long, cold and lonely winter. Little darling, it feels like years since you've been here. Here comes the sun, little darling.

Presenter25:44

That was Nina Simone and Here Comes the Sun. It was twenty thirteen, Jotan, when you and your husband Karl became parents for the first time. How easy was it for you dis to decide that you wanted to start a family?

Yotam Ottolenghi25:56

It was easy to decide. It was much more difficult to accomplish. Carl and I went on a real interesting journey, sometimes difficult. At first we thought as two gay men we would have to team up with a woman or a couple of women a kind of a co-parenting arrangement. We tried that for a few years and for various reasons it didn't work out. And then we decided we're gonna do it ourselves and we've had first Max and then Flynn through surrogacy. We went to America to do it because it's quite a bit more complicated to to to do surrogacy here. My childhood memories are just extremely positive and I just wanted to recreate that for myself and for Carl to have those children around and muck about and do funny things and listen to music and and that's that's what what we've got now. And one day you won't tear your hair out because we've got two little boys, a one year old and a three year old and the next day you're laughing your socks off. So you know it's that kind of intensity of emotions that is just comes with children.

Speaker 226:08

Pap

Presenter26:58

Uh tell me about Max then entering the world. Tell me about those moments. Do you remember them correctly?

Yotam Ottolenghi27:02

Yeah, Carl and I were in Massachusetts where our Sargat lives and we were there with her in the maternity ward. Labor was about 16 hours and we were there for the most of the time holding her hands. And after that amount of time that not so beautiful creature came because it was covered in hair. But it was just the most gorgeous thing that we loved so much. And, you know, our Sargat said, we were holding her hands and then this baby arrives and we didn't know what to do. She says, guys, what are you doing? Go play with your child. And we did. And it was just the most incredible moment. I'll never forget it. We were there and he was there.

Presenter27:48

You've described very articulately and clearly the the reasons, the simple reasons, the same reasons as so many people want a family why you wanted to have children.

Presenter27:57

I'm wondering if there are are there any moments when there are strange times and awkward times when people look at you as as, you know, two guys with children and think, well, I don't agree with that, that's not right. Do you meet those moments at all?

Yotam Ottolenghi28:10

No, I think we're we're pretty well protected in our central London house, you know, with with the environment we live in. We have never had any negative responses. I'm sure those would come at some point. I'm ready for them. I mean, I I don't think we've done anything wrong. I think we've created the most beautiful environment for our kids. And I think there's only a fool would be would dare criticize that.

Presenter28:35

Let's have your next piece of music. It's your seventh.

Yotam Ottolenghi28:39

That's the Smiths and that's Carl's favourite band. Since I've met Carl in the year 2015, 16 years, he's played The Smiths and Carl is from Northern Ireland and it was a massive part of his teenage years growing up in the 80s and for me the Smiths is Carl and I loved them before but I love them even more now.

Speaker 429:01

A man grabs secrets and never his mind, so let it be known.

Speaker 429:06

We got

Speaker 429:08

I held in my dominant

Speaker 429:12

And yet you start to record petty words as a live middle

Speaker 429:18

But still I bleep in front of a flying bullet for you So what difference does it make?

Presenter29:29

The Smiths, what difference does it make? That was chosen for your husband Carl Jotem. Does does he cook? Is he a good cook?

Yotam Ottolenghi29:35

Yes, he's a great cook. Actually he's a better cook because when I come home I just kind of get bogged down by all my experiments. But Carl is just a solid cook that makes delicious food and the kids love his food.

Presenter29:46

By reputation you have a huge appetite and you love to eat food. And as a little boy we know that you love to eat food. And yet you stride in here today looking as fit and as slim as a pin. You are you're also a qualified Pilates instructor. Where on earth did you find the time to do that?

Yotam Ottolenghi30:02

Well, I used to have standing up in the kitchen. That was in my previous incarnation. I used to, as I said, work many hours standing up in the kitchen. I'm tall and I used to have back problems. And I started doing Pilates to address this. And I just fell in love with this discipline because it really was very effective to dealing with my pain. And at some point I said to myself, well, if my cooking career doesn't quite take off, I might become a Pilates instructor. I do complete things and I want to feel that I've done them properly.

Presenter30:29

So when we cast you away to this island, what are the first key ingredients for food and drink that you'll be looking for in order to survive?

Yotam Ottolenghi30:39

Well, one of them is my luxury, so I won't reveal that. Don't talk about that, yes. But what would I look for? How are you with coconuts? I think I'm okay with coconuts, which I imagine every desert island has, and probably a few limes. But I think I'd find it really difficult to start the fire because I'm not that kind of cook. I'm really reliant on my oven and my stove, so I'm not a barbecue kind of chef. So I'd have to struggle a little bit, but I'm sure I'll survive eventually. Tell me about your eighths. What are we going to hear? My eighth is by The National. It's a band from Brooklyn that I really, really enjoy listening to at the moment. Often I come back from work and Carl's cooking and the window's open and this is blaring out. So it's the music of the moment in our house.

Presenter30:42

Don't talk about that, yeah.

Presenter30:46

I will

Speaker 430:52

Probably

Presenter31:00

I'm not a

Speaker 431:25

Turn the light and say goodnight Love you thinking for a little while

Speaker 431:32

This night I'm trying to figure out everything at one

Speaker 431:39

It's hard to be a dragon falling through the sky Without a wind and a fake embryo

Presenter31:52

That was the National with Fake Empire. Yotam, it is time for me to give you the books. We give all of our castaways the complete works of Shakespeare and the Bible or another religious text. Would you like the Bible, or would you prefer the Torah? Uh I can have both because

Yotam Ottolenghi32:06

No, you can't.

Yotam Ottolenghi32:08

Uh Can't start that with you though.

Presenter32:09

Can't start that with you with a lobby assets.

Presenter32:12

Right, so that's your so and what will your additional book?

Yotam Ottolenghi32:14

The additional book would be A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth. First of all, it's a very long book, which is very useful, but it's also a fantastic book about f family, which seems to be a theme in my life. And it's complex, it's emotional, it's a journey, and I think I could spend many hours enjoying that family aspect vicariously via this story.

Presenter32:35

It's yours then. And now I think it's going to be a culinary luxury from what you were saying. Tell me what your luxury is.

Yotam Ottolenghi32:39

Tell me what your luxury is. So I'm going to take a lemon tree. And I need lemons so much that I'd rather just, you know, give up any other luxury for that. And over the years I've kind of developed a hundred ways of dealing with lemons, from pickling them to roasting them to just juicing them. And I think a lemon is one of those magic ingredients that really kind of livens up a dish.

Presenter33:02

We will give you that constantly fruiting lemon tree, then, for your island. And if you had to pick just one of these eight discs, which one would you want?

Yotam Ottolenghi33:12

I think it would have to be Nina Simone, just'cause I love her so much.

Presenter33:15

It's Yusiotam Ottolengi. Thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Yotam Ottolenghi33:19

Thank you. It was such a pleasure.

Presenter34:01

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.

Speaker 234:33

This is the B B C.