Barrie Rutter

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons, the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter0:35

My Castaway this week is the actor and director Barry Rutter. Founder and Artistic Director of the Northern Broadsides Theatre Company, he puts on plays in non velvet spaces with Northern Voices.

Presenter0:48

The work ranges from the classics to new dramas, and the locations can be anywhere from Skipton Cattle Market to a Roman amphitheatre in Austria.

Presenter0:57

His impatience with convention might be something to do with his beginnings. Although the eldest of four boys, growing up in Hull, he never knew his siblings, living with his father, a fish porter, in a house with one bedroom and no books. He loved boxing and rugby till the moment aged fifteen.

Presenter1:15

When an English teacher persuaded the Gobby Rutter to take part in a school play, from there it was on to the National Youth Theatre, where he says he fell in love with the rock and roll of Shakspere's text.

Presenter1:27

One of his most prominent recent successes was casting and directing Lenny Henry as Othello to widespread rave reviews and sell-out performances. However, he says of himself, I'm still a front of cloth merchant. I do love to be on a stage. I like the renewal of theatre every night, so welcome, Barry Rutter. The renewal and I'm presuming also probably the presence of an audience are two of the most important things about that obvious.

Barrie Rutter1:53

Yes, but also the ephemeral nature of theatre. I love the fact that it goes and it disappears and you learn from it, but you can't carry it with you because the next night audience is always new.

Presenter1:59

And it's

Barrie Rutter2:06

That's the real magic for me.

Presenter2:08

Northern Broadsides was set up in nineteen ninety two and as I mentioned, I I I think they were your words or certainly in the description of it being set up. This Northern voices doing sometimes classical work, but not always, in non-velvet spaces.

Barrie Rutter2:11

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter2:21

I know it's it's got a bit moribund, that phrase. I mean in the beginning we did non velvet spaces'cause that was the inspiration for setting up the company. And it was that excitement of doing a classical piece written by Tony Harrison in front of a natural sounding audience and using my own voice.

Presenter2:24

Yeah.

Presenter2:27

Right.

Presenter2:39

Uh northern broadsides then, your company, does it matter if people I mean, can people work in it, actors and actresses, without having a northern accent? Yes.

Barrie Rutter2:45

Yes, yes.

Barrie Rutter2:48

Yes, yes, it's not that rigid. At first I made a joke about it, you know, like Mohammed Ali said, What's my name? What's my name? What's my name? We're Northern broadsides, We're Northern, where's your passport? And that's daft, that's silly.

Presenter2:56

Bear not

Presenter3:00

Can I talk for a moment about the performance at Skipton Cattle Market?

Barrie Rutter3:04

They were amazed because these are the same Yorkshire Hill farmers. You know, we talk about diversity now. Back in the nineties diversity was Yorkshire Hill Farmer who bought a sheep on a Wednesday and in the same ring the next night he bought Shakespeare from us. Anthony and Cleopatra, Romeo and Juliet, The Mysteries. You know, these were people who never went to the theatre.

Presenter3:27

And so you know for sure that they were your audiences? Did you talk to them? Yes, of course. Yeah.

Barrie Rutter3:30

Yes, of course. And there was that wonderful letter that I got that from a farmer who said, Dear Mr. Rutter, loved what you did last night. I'm sorry we can't come to your next one because we're lambing.

Presenter3:42

Tell me about your first piece of music, Barry Russell. What are we going to hear?

Barrie Rutter3:45

All the parties that we have known the broadsides in the 24 years we've been going.

Barrie Rutter3:50

If this time arrives and I'm still up, I all sing this song, just'cause I know the words. But like I've chosen my songs'cause if you drop a pebble in the memory pool and all the ripples. And this is the memory of the last twenty-four years. And this encapsulates Northern Broadside.

Presenter4:00

Yeah.

Presenter4:07

And tell me, what time in the morning might that be that you can't do that?

Barrie Rutter4:09

Well it's on the song, so let's it's the first line of the song.

Presenter4:11

Yeah.

Presenter4:13

Ah yes, let's hear it.

Speaker 24:14

It's quarter to three

Speaker 24:18

There's no one in the place

Barrie Rutter4:18

No

Presenter4:18

One

Barrie Rutter4:18

And the plan.

Speaker 24:22

Except you and me

Speaker 24:28

So set em up, Joe I got a little story.

Speaker 24:36

I think you should know

Speaker 24:43

We're drinking my friend

Presenter4:46

One for my baby and one more for the road. That was Frank Sinatra singing it there. But Barry Rotter, you said it tends to be your uh late night, early morning party piece if you stay up.

Barrie Rutter4:53

Exactly at quarter three. Exactly. And it's only because I know the words, but it's become a little bit of a ritual, so that's nice.

Presenter4:56

Yeah.

Presenter5:00

You've played King Lear, I think, twice in your career. Jonathan Miller directed you a couple of years ago, and he said of you.

Barrie Rutter5:03

Yeah, so

Presenter5:07

He's impatient with the gilded world of conventional theatre. He said you were as impatient as he himself is.

Presenter5:14

Is he right? And what is it about you that has been throughout times impatient with the status quo?

Barrie Rutter5:18

This assumed scholarship.

Barrie Rutter5:22

Where, you know, you sit round a table and discuss every bloody line and comma for a fortnight before you get on your feet. You know, rehearsals, first day, act one, scene one, get on your feet and let's get to work. It's that uh you know the I love the rock and roll of the big language and you know it it is about music as well, the music of language. It's not about the last two hundred years, which has been the investigation into the mind and psychology and what is Cleopatra thinking at anyone who cares? Who gives a damn? I Shakespeare didn't write that four hundred years ago. He knew actors he was writing for, he knew the place he was writing for, and he wrote theatre.

Presenter6:03

Yeah.

Presenter6:04

So you would contend, it seems to me, that it's all about the story and not about actors and actresses tying themselves in knots about what's the motivation.

Barrie Rutter6:11

Who gives a damn about any actor becoming somebody? That's not our job. Our job is to instil in an audience that what comes out of our gobs deserves to come out of them, and therefore then you do the work as the audience.

Presenter6:26

I suppose an actor, if they were sitting here who, you know, sort of departed from your view of things, would say, Well, if I understand.

Presenter6:33

Where he's coming from psychologically, and I'm walking around my kitchen in the morning, you know, making a cup of tea as full staff, then I understand what it is to be him. I understand his motivations, I understand the depth, and that is then translated into the performance on stage. You would say clap trap. Right. Let's have your second piece of music then. Tell me about this. What are we going to hear now?

Barrie Rutter6:51

But That's

Barrie Rutter6:54

Me mam used to put these big crinoline dresses on.

Barrie Rutter6:58

with an old mac on the top of it, a rarering calers, and a net, and should go off and sing in the working men's clubs in Ull.

Barrie Rutter7:05

And obviously she'd come back uh uh in a taxi'cause she'd been paid. She'd do her air at the club and then sing uh two sets of four songs or something, something like that. Uh but she had this bright lemon dress, I remember. I was only five, and this bright lilac one.

Barrie Rutter7:21

And she used to sing this song, and this is the pebble of the the few nice memories I have of being a little lad.

Speaker 37:33

Dow wheel of forgiven.

Speaker 37:40

Go spending a round.

Speaker 37:46

Will the arrow point my way?

Speaker 37:53

Will this be my day?

Presenter8:00

That was K Star and Wheel of Fortune. You said, Barry, going into that very memorably for you, you said it was one of the very few nice memories you have of being a little and you were aged five around about that when your mother would go occasionally to working men clubs to sing and she would be in these lemon dresses or purple dresses. What else do you remember about your your mother from those early years?

Speaker 28:11

Uh

Barrie Rutter8:11

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter8:15

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter8:18

Well, I've got a very checkered history and my mum's still alive and I'm eldest of four boys, all to different fathers. And then seventeen years after the divorce to me dad in nineteen sixty six, she came back to all and married my dad again.

Presenter8:37

Right.

Barrie Rutter8:37

Right. And then got divorced again.

Presenter8:39

Right.

Barrie Rutter8:40

So I've got my sort of rose-tinted glasses on a little bit.

Presenter8:44

Okay, we're all allowed those, I think. You didn't know your brothers as you were being brought up. How c how come? We were off. We were you went off with your father. Yeah.

Barrie Rutter8:45

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter8:51

You went over.

Barrie Rutter8:52

Yeah, but then when I was five, uh my mum was married and then had what was number three child. And then when my dad was in hospital in O two, twenty O two, I stayed overnight

Presenter9:04

Uh

Barrie Rutter9:06

in this room and this guy came and knocked on the door in a white coat. He said, Oh, hello, Barr. He said, I thought it were you. He said, No, I work in radiology I went, Yeah, go on. He said, Well, ye I thought it was your dad's X-rays that come down, so I thought I'd come and say hello. I went, Yeah, go on.

Barrie Rutter9:22

He said, I'm Michael the next one to you.

Presenter9:24

Goodness me, two thousand and two.

Barrie Rutter9:28

Post damp I'd met him.

Presenter9:30

Did you stay and talk to?

Barrie Rutter9:32

Not really.

Barrie Rutter9:34

I was concerned about my dad.

Presenter9:37

So you were brought up without your brothers, but with your father. Tell me about that early, early relationship with your dad.

Barrie Rutter9:45

My dad always had hopes for me not to work on fish stock,'cause I'm a fish stock lad from all right near the fish stock.

Presenter9:51

And those would have been jobs that would have been handed down because they were good jobs.

Barrie Rutter9:54

Excellent job.

Presenter9:54

Yes.

Barrie Rutter9:54

But he didn't want that for me. He wanted me to be a marine engineer on big boats and I had no physics, I had nothing. But I did get into grammar school and I was the only grammar school lad down the street, so I suffered with that because my granny wouldn't let me drop trousers till I was fourteen, so my great tree trunks of thighs were

Presenter10:11

In short.

Barrie Rutter10:11

In shorts. In shorts, walking down the the street in my uniform and I couldn't go out larking'cause I I had homework to do.

Presenter10:12

Hmm.

Presenter10:18

Let's have some more music, Barry Russer. Tell me about this. We're gonna listen to your third.

Barrie Rutter10:22

Well, you can't be on a desert island without this voice. It is the voice of post war pop music, for me.

Barrie Rutter10:34

And it's obvious who it is.

Speaker 310:36

You know I can't be fine Sitting home all alone

Speaker 310:42

If you can't call my rabbit, then at least please telephone and don't be crude.

Speaker 310:50

The whole is true.

Speaker 310:54

Baby informed

Speaker 310:56

Something I might have said Please not forget my past The future looks bright ahead But don't be cruel

Speaker 311:07

The whole heart is true.

Presenter11:09

Elvis, don't be cruel. Barry Rutter, you've spoken about your dad. There he was working on the docks. I think he mostly at the fish docks did night shifts. How much did you see of him when you were living with him then as a boy?

Speaker 311:14

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter11:14

Mostly

Barrie Rutter11:17

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter11:20

Well, because of circumstances, I had to share a bedroom with him till I was eighteen. So he had two alarm clocks. He got up at midnight to start work at two.

Barrie Rutter11:29

He'd come back for breakfast about quarter past half past seven. We'd meet for breakfast. He'd go to bed. I'd go to school.

Presenter11:35

So not much.

Barrie Rutter11:36

No.

Presenter11:36

You are a very well read man now, of course, able to quote chapter and verse and some of the finest words that have ever been written in the English language and yet you sit in front of me as somebody who, as a little boy, didn't have any books in the house.

Barrie Rutter11:43

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter11:49

Not a sausage. There was a daily newspaper, a weekly thing called The Titbits, and The News of the World on a Sunday, and that were it. Uh when I got to grammar school, it was like I'd gone to Samarkand.

Barrie Rutter12:04

And I used everything.

Presenter12:06

Did you? You gobbled it up all that. I did. I did.

Barrie Rutter12:07

I did, I did, but in my own terrass way, so I was never a great popular with the teachers, except this one guy later on when I was fifteen, because I I had the chippy attitude of the fish dock.

Barrie Rutter12:19

So I got aggro at school and I was a a grammar school boy down my street.

Presenter12:24

And you went to the boxing club.

Barrie Rutter12:26

I was about twelve and I made the mistake of telling the lads at the boxing club and the trainer that I was leaving the boxing club to go and sing in Holy Trinity Church choir and all. Well, he put everybody in the ring with me.

Speaker 212:36

Where?

Barrie Rutter12:39

Smacked me up. I mean not badly, but smacked me up. So

Barrie Rutter12:43

I left a sort of

Barrie Rutter12:45

Wimpy betrayer and I arrived at the first choir practice the next day with uh a last blast over my eyebrow, a laster blast at the top of my nose and a cut lip. So I arrived at hooligan and I never recovered from it. And I've always had that sort of juxtaposition often in my life. When I went to Scotland to the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama, they told me I talked funny.

Barrie Rutter13:09

I was the only Englishman in a group of Scots, and they're telling me I talk funny.

Barrie Rutter13:13

I'm sure you did, Barry.

Presenter13:14

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter13:15

Yeah.

Presenter13:15

I did.

Barrie Rutter13:16

Yeah.

Presenter13:16

Speaking as a Scots, I'm when you weren't at school hoovering up all the knowledge and being a terrorist, as you so wonderfully describe it, when you did have time with your dad.

Barrie Rutter13:17

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter13:26

Yeah.

Presenter13:27

What did you do together?

Barrie Rutter13:28

Films. He was a big John Wayne man, so we saw everything John Wayne did, we saw everything Jimmy Cagney did.

Presenter13:34

When was it that you started going to the choir?

Barrie Rutter13:38

Oh, when I was about uh twelve. And I still had a soprano voice.

Barrie Rutter13:42

And then when it broke, it didn't break in any quality.

Presenter13:44

And were you the one who decided you wanted to go there, or did somebody pick you up?

Barrie Rutter13:47

Yeah, somebody at school, I met the music teacher at school said Holy Trinity are uh recruiting and they they accepted me.

Presenter13:54

There was something in you, even though you were chippy and conscious that you wanted to fit into your surroundings, there was something also that was lusting after this other world, this other world.

Barrie Rutter14:02

I liked performing. I'm not saying I were good.

Barrie Rutter14:05

I liked being in front of an audience.

Presenter14:07

And you knew your mother had been a singer,'cause you'd see her go out in the lemon dresses.

Barrie Rutter14:09

Did you

Barrie Rutter14:11

In the clubs, yeah.

Presenter14:12

Do you think maybe you were

Presenter14:13

Sort of connecting with some of that. I can sing too. I can do that.

Barrie Rutter14:17

Not that as much as her confidence of standing up in front of an audience.

Presenter14:21

Time for more music, Barry Rutter. Tell me about your fourth. What are we gonna hear?

Barrie Rutter14:24

I was always a Stones fan. From the first moment they came out, I was a fan. I was also a Chuck Berry fan, so I've made a compromise here. A Chuck Berry number sung by The Stones. It ain't the Stones' bestest, it ain't Chuck Berry's bestest, but together it's quite dynamic.

Presenter15:09

That was the Rolling Stones and Let It Rock. And I mentioned to you, Barry Rutter, during that, that this was the first time it had ever been chosen on Desert Island as the same as K-Star, that track too. You were happy with that?

Barrie Rutter15:18

But

Presenter15:18

Okay.

Barrie Rutter15:18

Yeah.

Presenter15:18

Richino

Barrie Rutter15:18

Regina.

Presenter15:19

Tell me about mister Siddle.

Barrie Rutter15:21

The English teacher, he was trying to persuade me to come into the school play for a number of years, and then he said

Presenter15:27

For a number of years

Barrie Rutter15:28

Yeah, well a couple of years at least because the staff played the leads in the play then and then he said look you've got a big gobbing class put it to use in the school play and eventually af having said I'm too busy doing football I'm too busy doing cricket etcetera I went into the school play and that was the first year because there were two of us that he took a particular uh theatrical shine to that could carry the play and it was the government inspector so I played the mayor and this other guy played um

Presenter15:52

Play the mat.

Barrie Rutter15:55

Klestakoff, the government inspector, and uh I loved it.

Presenter15:59

Is that where you feel most at home?

Barrie Rutter16:01

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter16:02

Oh, without question.

Barrie Rutter16:04

Without question.

Barrie Rutter16:06

It's the best drug in the world. Not that I've done drugs. It doesn't go with the stage. It's as simple as that.

Barrie Rutter16:11

It's just that marvellous feeling. I mean, you know.

Barrie Rutter16:15

the holy trinity of of acting is head, heart and balls and, you know, it thrills every part of it.

Presenter16:21

Tell me then about joining you auditioned for the National Youth Theatre.

Barrie Rutter16:24

Yeah.

Presenter16:25

Uh what do you I I imagine maybe as much being around people who you maybe felt for the first time, oh, they're like me this lot.

Barrie Rutter16:31

Yeah. Yeah, there was a b there was a a Dussman from Plymouth, I remember, in nineteen sixty four, and his council were so thrilled with him that they'd paid all his uh expenses up to come to that was a different world. You know, it didn't cost me a penny to to go down to London.

Presenter16:46

What happened? Did you just apply for a little grant? A little

Barrie Rutter16:48

Applied for a local grant and a trust fund and you know back then it was a a real achievement.

Presenter16:50

Yeah.

Presenter16:51

I

Barrie Rutter16:54

Except I knew that I didn't want to be a student in London. Wha when it came to it, I only applied to provincial drama schools, and I took the first one that took me, which happened to be the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama in Glasgow.

Presenter17:07

And how did you get on there? You said they tried to iron your accent out.

Barrie Rutter17:10

Oh yeah, the idea. Listen, in 1965 I was in the famous Anson and Cleopatra with Helen Mirren at the Old Vic. 1966 we re-did Little Malcolm and his struggle against the eunuchs at the Royal Court. That's when George Harrison bought the rights and I was in that with Tim Dalton. And then I went back to college and they sort of patted me on the head and said, Yeah, very good for that West End in the summer, but now you've got to act properly. And I said, Sod off.

Barrie Rutter17:40

So you left? I left early. Yeah,'cause I've got a job.

Barrie Rutter17:44

Round Europe, playing Nipple in Little Malcolm. First class travel, all round Europe, 1968. Of course I left.

Presenter17:52

Let's have some more music, Barry Rutter. Tell me about your fist.

Barrie Rutter17:56

Well, at this college

Barrie Rutter17:58

It was combined with the music college as well, and it was really where I got my sexual awakening. Particularly the music ladies and and they played violin uh and got invited to a lunchtime concert.

Barrie Rutter18:10

And then I heard this and I just fell in love.

Presenter19:16

That was part of the third movement from César Franc's Symphony in D minor with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra conducted by Pierre Montau. We were chatting earlier and you said, Barry Rutter, that I should say Cesar Frank and not César Franc.

Barrie Rutter19:27

It's up to you.

Barrie Rutter19:30

I can't say it's easy half wrong, what that second one you did.

Presenter19:33

You were a first-time father in 1973 to your daughter, your first daughter Tamsin. What difference did that make to your working life as an actor then?

Barrie Rutter19:36

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter19:42

I'm afraid I followed the checkered pattern that my mother did with me due to circumstances. I won't bore you with what they were, but uh it was unfortunate, to say the least.

Presenter19:53

So at that point it wasn't that there was a a family life that was burgeoning. You were working and you happened to have a daughter.

Barrie Rutter19:56

Mountain.

Barrie Rutter19:57

Path when

Presenter19:59

So you joined the RSC in nineteen seventy five? What were the roles that you were playing?

Barrie Rutter20:05

I had a good time. I I wished for bigger parts, but again, you know, seventy five, I remember rehearsing something and I did it in a in Jordy because uh it was a servant to Hotspur, but Hotspur was doing it RP, so I got moved from the servant and they got an R P servant in to talk to an R P Hotspur and I thought, Oh, here we go.

Presenter20:26

Um, Barry, tell me then, how did you meet uh the woman who would become your wife?

Barrie Rutter20:30

She came backstage uh in Ann Arbor, Michigan, where she was doing her doctorate, to congratulate us really. I I'd just played Oedipus in Roland Joffey's production of um Yeats's version of Oedipus, and I said, Oh, you're nice, let's go for a drink.

Barrie Rutter20:45

And that was it. Right. And then we got married in seventy eight.

Presenter20:46

Right.

Presenter20:49

You had two daughters. You also had a son. That was your baby Harry. And then Harry died at fourteen weeks old. Died from cot death.

Barrie Rutter20:50

So

Barrie Rutter20:57

Yeah. I was on stage at the National playing Napoleon in Peter Hall's Animal Farm, nineteen eighty four, and the corner knew just after the interval.

Barrie Rutter21:07

But they couldn't, you know, I'm I'm Napoleon, I'm on and off stage, so the stage manager came into the dressing room at the end and said there's been uh something wrong. I knew something was wrong'cause she was smoking and I hate smoking and certainly in a personal dressing room. But I never in the world thought it would be uh Harry. So I drove home. Um

Presenter21:10

So

Barrie Rutter21:28

and I drove home as fast as I could.

Barrie Rutter21:32

With the radio blaring all the time I was wanting the police to stop me so I didn't have to drive.

Barrie Rutter21:38

and explain the situation and then get

Barrie Rutter21:41

The police to take me home because it was south of Stratford, so it was from the National Theatre to Stratford, the family home.

Barrie Rutter21:48

We then went on to have another child, which we weren't going to have, and she's now bright and bonny and is about to be married.

Presenter21:55

And what

Barrie Rutter21:56

What's a steam?

Presenter21:56

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter21:56

Two.

Presenter21:56

Um people have to be

Presenter22:00

as resilient as they're able to be. What was it through that time? Was it was it.

Presenter22:04

Family, did did you keep on working? Did you take time away from your

Barrie Rutter22:07

Oh yeah, but ten days later I was back at work.

Presenter22:09

Where

Barrie Rutter22:09

on stage. But also that year I put on a load of weight because I never said no.

Barrie Rutter22:16

to anything.

Barrie Rutter22:17

If people said, Do would you yes, please. People come up to you and and react to you when when you've uh lost a child. And oft often they offer things.

Presenter22:26

Right.

Barrie Rutter22:26

You know that you know, that old thing of uh when um Priam goes to Achilles' tent for the body of Hector, first they sit down for food and drink. It's that sort of ancient syndrome that you bring food and drink, and I never refused any.

Presenter22:43

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter22:43

Yeah. She

Presenter22:43

Finished you?

Barrie Rutter22:43

That tragedy. I have a hole in me which will never get stitched up. It's a black hole. But next to it is the sun.

Barrie Rutter22:52

of the daughter that we now have.

Presenter22:56

Let's have some more music, Perry Rutter. T tell me about your sixth choice of the day then. What are we doing here?

Barrie Rutter23:00

I am a terrible insomniac and I used to sing to my girls, Bryony and Rowan.

Barrie Rutter23:07

before they went to bed.

Barrie Rutter23:09

So on this island

Barrie Rutter23:11

I would love to be sung to sleep.

Barrie Rutter23:14

And this is the lullaby that Eliza Carthy was sang to by a mam Norman.

Speaker 323:20

Cares of the day have fled my little lone sleepy hand.

Speaker 323:29

Stars are in the sky.

Speaker 323:36

Time that your prayers were said, My little sleepy head to a prayer

Presenter23:52

That was Eliza Carthy and Prairie Lullaby. You said you would like that on your island, Barry, because it would help to hopefully lull you off to sleep. You're an insomniac. What do you do in those nights when you can't sleep? Are you reading plays? Are you thinking artistically?

Barrie Rutter24:00

What do you do?

Barrie Rutter24:03

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter24:08

Through the night, fablab.

Presenter24:10

You were aged around forty six then when you decided to create this Northern Broadsides Theatre Company. I think that's a very interesting age to set up your own company. And and I wonder if you can give us a little bit of context for that. Was it because you saw the limitations of what might happen?

Barrie Rutter24:23

It was two big disappointments. And you can only drink so much scotch or kick the dog, you have to do some of it. And so I did it. I got a sort of road to Damascus vision and I set it up. Some people thought I was mad, some people thought I was stupid, but a lot of people went with my burning enthusiasm. And by sweet serendipity, all my hometown was having its first ever big festival. 700 years of being a city. And that was in 92. So I tapped into that with the production of Richard III in a marina boatshed.

Presenter25:00

So what would you say to people who in a very lively way and very often participate in that current debate about diversity in the arts, widely recognized as being a useful thing in society in broader terms, who also say that

Speaker 225:12

Yeah.

Presenter25:14

You know, right now, within the acting profession, particularly, what we are seeing are.

Presenter25:19

a very high profile group of performers who may be very able but come from very well heeled backgrounds, have been through, you know, the private education system and so on, and that this is indicative of the fact that the acting profession can no longer really support people from low income backgrounds because they just don't have the cash to to go to the

Barrie Rutter25:34

This is part of the elitism. I'm not blaming the actors, the good actors, the stars.

Presenter25:35

The elitism.

Barrie Rutter25:39

But the elitism that's happening it's happening in football, it's happening in our universities with foreign students buying up all the places and accommodation at universities it's happening and it's happening in the arts.

Presenter25:52

What is it right now that might be putting off youngsters from lower income and more diverse backgrounds from getting into the acting program?

Barrie Rutter25:58

The whole funding the whole funding across the board. And every fiscal argument is won. At least three or four pounds goes back to the coffers of the land, for every pound given in subsidy. It's a proven fiscal fact, but that's not the point. It's about the imagination of the country. Once you rob the country of the creative spirit, this is the danger.

Barrie Rutter26:21

That's when we become a a desert.

Presenter26:24

Let's have some more music, Barry Rutter. We're on your seventh. Tell me about this one. Why have you chosen this, and what is it?

Barrie Rutter26:29

Well, it's a tribute to the ladies in my life, from the matriarchs when I were born, right through to the ladies of girlfriends, to dear ex-wife, to daughters, and to leading colleagues, all of whom have been female. And it's my sort of little nod and tribute by one of the great female rock and rollers. And also, I went to see her in Manchester, and at the end of the show, her climax is this great big mechanical claw comes up and it swings out over the audience, and she stands at the apex of it, singing, and she leant over, and it stopped right above me. And she leant over, and I got an anointing drop of sweat right in the middle of the forehead.

Speaker 327:12

Left a good job in the city

Speaker 327:18

Working for the man every night and day.

Presenter27:21

Hurry.

Speaker 327:23

And I never lost one minute of sleep and I was worried about the way that things might have been.

Presenter27:26

Meanwhile

Presenter27:30

Everything's m

Speaker 327:33

That big whim keep on turning.

Speaker 327:38

Prominent, keep on burning.

Speaker 327:43

And we're rolling, rolling.

Presenter27:47

That was Tina Turner and Proud Mary. As I've mentioned, Barry Rutter, you've played King Lear twice in your professional career. He dies of well, he dies of a broken heart at old age, doesn't he? What have the great parts in playing them taught you about how to d you you're about to be seventy yourself. What have they taught you about what it is to be older?

Speaker 227:56

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter27:57

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter28:03

Would I

Barrie Rutter28:06

Not a lot, because seventy now is a lot younger.

Presenter28:09

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter28:09

Than when they were written, and certainly, you know, my grandfather's age, or me even my dad's age, seventy is a lot younger now.

Barrie Rutter28:17

You know, I'm still putting on a fat suit and falling backwards into a a basket seven times a week. As long as we don't lose our faculties, actors don't need to retire.

Presenter28:26

Yeah.

Barrie Rutter28:26

I just hope I grow old gracefully with a bit of fun and a a lot of rock and roll.

Presenter28:31

In 2009, you had a heart attack, didn't you, while you were tuning in a statement?

Barrie Rutter28:35

Yeah, I did. I was directing Richard the Third in Estonia. Luckily in Tartu, the second city, because it's got a university and a lovely clinic with it.

Speaker 328:42

Oh.

Barrie Rutter28:43

So I had this heart attack. I didn't know it was a heart attack. It was a real pain across the top of my shoulders. And I was working for four days afterwards. And eventually my designer said, you're not right. Let's go to the clinic. So straight upstairs, intensive care, straight up to the surgery ward. So I was watching it all on the screen. He gets to the occluded artery and he said to me, Right, there it is, Mr. Rutter, on the screen, about an inch of occluded blood. He said, I've got to remove this very carefully now, so I don't send it round the body. It's not a five-minute job. And I said, well, Doc, I'm going nowhere. The pubs are short. He started laughing. And then very formally, he lifted his hands off my body, looked down at me and said, Mr. Rutter, don't make me laugh. I'm in your heart.

Presenter29:26

Good advice. Did you heat it? Oh, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Barrie Rutter29:27

Did you heat it?

Speaker 229:29

Uh

Barrie Rutter29:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 229:29

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Presenter29:30

And what about the family? People who spend their life in the theatre talk often and apparently honestly about the family of of a theatre and being together with other people. Given the the confusion of your early life, has that felt like the most solid?

Barrie Rutter29:41

I don't think it's an accident that I spent Nashville Theatre.

Barrie Rutter29:46

Royal Shakespeare Company, National Theatre, and then the last twenty-four years with my own sort of theatrical family, plus the families that I've helped to create, you know. I don't think that's an accident. If I was psychoanalysing myself, that's what I would probably think, that I've sought families.

Presenter30:08

Just a tiny bit of introspection there we got.

Barrie Rutter30:10

Well, listen, if you're on an island, you're gonna have a bit of naval gazing, aren't you?

Presenter30:15

I was grateful for it, Barry. I was welcoming it in. Tell me then about your eighth track. What are we going to hear?

Barrie Rutter30:16

He's welcoming it in.

Barrie Rutter30:21

Well this this is my rage against the dying of the light. I don't want to hang up my rock and roll shoes. This is a great version of uh a song which is many people have recorded. And it's wonderful brass in the middle of it.

Presenter31:03

That was the band and I don't want to hang up my rock and roll shoes. So, Barry, I give all our castaways, as you might know, the Bible and the complete works of Shaw. Yeah, I don't want the Bible. Right, you don't have to take it. You will take the complete works of Shaw. And you're allowed to take one other book.

Barrie Rutter31:11

Yeah, I don't want to bible.

Barrie Rutter31:14

Of course I will, yeah.

Barrie Rutter31:16

Yeah, now can I swap the Bible for Tony Harrison's selected verse and then he's got a book of prose coming out so can you drone it to me next year?

Presenter31:25

No.

Barrie Rutter31:26

Yeah.

Presenter31:26

Three

Barrie Rutter31:26

Three books is three books.

Presenter31:27

Books? No, you can't do that. I'm not changing the rules for you. It's fine for you not to take the Bible.

Barrie Rutter31:33

Auvern.

Presenter31:33

But complete works of Shakespeare and one of the things that we have.

Barrie Rutter31:35

Well I'll have to make do it with this selected verse then.

Presenter31:38

Yeah. Uh A luxury item. What's your luxury item gonna be?

Barrie Rutter31:40

Now

Barrie Rutter31:42

Uh I'll be getting old and so the the quality of my death will be important. I wanted to take the NHS, but you won't give me that. Uh so hanging like a meteor above the lintel of the door of the hut that I shall build,

Barrie Rutter31:56

will be a pair of swimming flippers.

Barrie Rutter31:59

and at the first sign of madness

Barrie Rutter32:01

I'll put em on swim out.

Barrie Rutter32:04

Find a great white and challenge him to fifteen rounds.

Presenter32:07

You can definitely have the flippers. And if you could only save one disc from this list of eight, which one would it be?

Barrie Rutter32:15

Well, I'm a rock and roller. It was gonna be the Stones, but I think with the memory of all the ladies in my life, Tina Turn.

Presenter32:21

It's yours. Barry Russell, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Barrie Rutter32:25

Q

Presenter33:07

You've been listening to a download from the BBC.

Presenter33:09

You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website bbc.co.uk/slash radio4.

Speaker 333:24

Uh