Berry Gordy

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons, the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the producer Berry Gordy. He is mister Motown, founding the label Building a Musical Empire and making worldwide stars of Smokey Robinson, Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross and the Supremes, The Jackson Five, Marvin Gay.

Presenter0:49

I could go on. His vision was to create a hit factory, just like the car factories that sustained his hometown of Detroit.

Presenter0:57

He came up with the idea during the long dull days he spent as a young man working on the Ford production line before that he'd tried his hand at boxing and been a serving soldier in the Korean War.

Presenter1:09

It was the combination of his songwriting skills and entrepreneurial spirit that put Motan music at the top of the charts and the centre of American culture during a pivotal moment in its civil rights history. Indeed, he even made an album with Doctor Martin Luther King.

Presenter1:25

He says, however, when I started off, I didn't know that I wanted to be a mogul or a big songwriter or anything. I just wanted to write songs, make some money, and get some girls. So welcome to Desert Island Discs, Mr. Berry Gordy. You are Motown, as I said there in the introduction. Motown songs, of course, have been chosen by so many of our castaways throughout the decades.

Presenter1:49

Given your experience, given the breadth of your musical knowledge, given the songs that you've written and the stars that you worked with.

Presenter1:56

How on earth did you go about choosing your eight discs for today's program?

Berry Gordy2:03

Not very easily. So I went about thinking through the history of my life.

Berry Gordy2:09

and came up with uh the various songs that I thought meant something to me in different ways.

Berry Gordy2:15

than anything else that I could have there.

Presenter2:18

Many, many music lovers, and interestingly many people of the younger generation are still listening to a lot of stuff that Motown made.

Presenter2:27

What is it about a piece of music? And I mean this really in a kind of technical sense.

Presenter2:32

that enables it to maintain its freshness throughout the decades. If we listen to a hit from forty, fifty years ago and it still punches us in the stomach in that fabulous way that a great piece of popular music can, what is it about it that keeps it fresh?

Berry Gordy2:47

Yeah.

Berry Gordy2:48

That hasn't changed. It's about truth and love.

Berry Gordy2:52

and inspiration. So my songs were based on my feelings. You know, when I needed money, I wrote money. You'll love to give me such a thrill, but you'll have to pay my bill. I need money. And when I couldn't dance and I learned to dance to get girls, you know, I wrote a song called Do You Love Me? Now that I can dance? You know? But that was sort of what it was. It wasn't following the crowd or the bandwagon.

Berry Gordy3:20

And I would never jump on a bandwagon.

Berry Gordy3:22

If it wasn't going somewhere I wanted to go. If it was going somewhere I wanted to go, I'd be glad to jump on.

Presenter3:27

Let's go to your musical list then, Barry Gordy. Tell me about this first piece of music that we're going to hear this morning. Tell me why you've chosen it.

Berry Gordy3:34

I was a dreamer and Nat King Cole spoke to me. I always tried to be like Nat King Cole.

Berry Gordy3:42

And so he wrote a song called Sweet Lorraine.

Berry Gordy3:45

And then I wrote a song called My Marlene, which was very similar because it was a girl that I had a big crush on. Did it win her round? It did not. I had fun writing the song, but it was inspired by Sweet Lorraine, so I would say that was like my first entree into actually trying to write a song.

Speaker 34:08

And I've just found joy.

Speaker 34:13

I'm as happy as a baby boy

Speaker 34:19

With another brand new choo-choo choice.

Speaker 34:25

When I met my sweet Lorraine, Lorraine, Lorraine.

Speaker 34:33

She's got a pair of eyes

Speaker 34:38

That are brighter than the summer sky.

Presenter4:42

That was Nat King Cole and the King Cole trio with Sweet Lorraine. Um so, Berry Gordy, you were born in Detroit in nineteen twenty nine to uh Bertha and Berry Gordy Senior. Loving family. It was a big family, right? Yes. So you were the seventh of eight.

Berry Gordy4:53

It was a

Berry Gordy4:55

Yeah.

Berry Gordy4:56

Seventh of eight. Four boys, four girls. Uh, I was the second from the youngest. How did you all get along? Very, very well. The women ran the family. My father was a contractor. That was actually the family business, but my mother also was an inc

Berry Gordy5:12

a school teacher when she was down south, and then she started a insurance company when they came to Detroit.

Berry Gordy5:22

she became an executive in in an insurance company and, um

Berry Gordy5:26

But my father, he made us all work in

Berry Gordy5:31

contracting, plastering houses.

Berry Gordy5:34

Doing that. Would you do that?

Presenter5:35

I did that as kids, yes.

Presenter5:38

So nineteen twenty nine then when you were born, just a few weeks after the Wall Street crash, did you I mean times were tough for everybody in America pretty much at that time. Were you aware that money was tight? Was money tight?

Berry Gordy5:51

Not to me. We never felt the the depression

Berry Gordy5:54

My father was a hustler and he was always out working when they m I was born in Detroit. He was from the South. And all I know is I used to get up and go to work and plaster walls and carry heavy bags of cement.

Berry Gordy6:07

At Christmas time we sold Christmas trees. He was a hustler and the summertime we were on a truck selling watermelons.

Presenter6:14

You you say your mother, when she'd been in the South, had been a schoolteacher. Why didn't she teach in Detroit?

Berry Gordy6:20

I have no idea.

Berry Gordy6:21

She just decided to

Berry Gordy6:23

do something else, but she was always teaching us something, trying to my father was not educated, but very uh spiritual and he was a deacon at church and we had to go to church three or four times a week. Oh, right. Where I heard a lot of great gospel music and I liked that as well. And my uncle, my mother's brother,

Berry Gordy6:47

He was a concert pianist and teacher.

Presenter6:50

On that very subject then, tell us a bit about why you've chosen this Rachmananoff that we're going to hear next. What is it about this piece that you love so much?

Berry Gordy6:57

Uh it was my introduction to the classics, which I never thought I liked or I never paid much attention to, but since my uncle was a classical pianist and a teacher,

Berry Gordy7:10

And I just love music.

Berry Gordy7:12

I wanted to learn the basics of music.

Berry Gordy7:15

And so I went to him to teach me how to play the piano. And I was just fascinated by Rach Maninoff's C sharp minor, because I didn't think anyone's hands could go that fast. It was complicated. It was hard. It was incredible.

Presenter8:34

Wow, indeed. That was Vladimir Ashkenazi playing part of Rachmaninoff's prelude in C sharp minor. Berry Gordy, I mentioned in introducing you today that for a short time you had a go at boxing, and I'm looking at your nose and it looks pretty straight, so I'm imagining you were a pretty good boxer.

Presenter8:53

Were you?

Berry Gordy8:53

Analysis. Yes, I was.

Presenter8:54

Yeah.

Presenter8:55

Is it true that as a really a little boy I mean, you must have only been about nine years old, you were inspired by the Joe Lewis Match Smelling nineteen thirty eight? Yes, Reems. Right. That was a legendary fight.

Berry Gordy9:03

Yes.

Berry Gordy9:06

That was allegedly.

Berry Gordy9:08

Absolutely.

Presenter9:08

Mm-hmm.

Berry Gordy9:10

A superpower contest between America, the land of the free, and Nazi Germany.

Presenter9:16

That's right,'cause Schmeling fought under the Nazi flag.

Berry Gordy9:18

And America had won.

Berry Gordy9:22

And Joe Lewis was the hero of all the people.

Berry Gordy9:25

and he was black like me.

Berry Gordy9:27

And that was such an inspiration to see your mother and father crying from joy. And I just got a feeling there that I wanted to be Joe Lewis. It was artistry.

Berry Gordy9:40

Yeah.

Presenter9:40

When you said to your parents as we know your mother had been a schoolteacher, and learning was important in the household, and your brothers and sisters were smart and doing well in school, when you said to your parents,

Presenter9:49

Mum and Dad, I'd like to go into boxing. What was their reply to that?

Berry Gordy9:53

I never asked them. Boxing was something that we all loved because my father cried when Joe Lewis knocked out Mac Smelling, and my mother was proud.

Berry Gordy10:04

Because America versus Germany and and I said he's black like me and she said like all of us son, when Jolo's fought, it was a holiday for black folks. They didn't feel it was an escape hatch at all. And I was good and I never got hit, even much. It's time for some more music.

Presenter10:21

Dick Perry

Berry Gordy10:22

Gordy, we're gonna Here you're third of the Morning This is uh Louis Jordan and Atapani 5. Ain't nobody here but us chickens. It just kind of helped me to realize that.

Berry Gordy10:34

Music is all over the place. There's Rachmanoff, you know, there's love songs, there's comedy songs. And so I incorporated all of that into my repertoire of musical thinking.

Berry Gordy10:47

That it's all over the place and you can do anything you want to do with it.

Speaker 210:52

One night Farmer Brown was taking the air Locked up the barnyard with the greatest of care Down in the hen house something stirred When he shouted, who's there? This is what he heard. There ain't nobody here but us chickens They ain't nobody here at all So calm yourself and stop that fuss There ain't nobody here but us We chickens trying to sleep And you butt in and hobble hobble hobble hobble with your chin They ain't nobody here but us chickens

Presenter11:26

Okay.

Speaker 211:26

We can

Presenter11:26

That was Louis Jordan and the Timpani Five and Ain't Nobody Here But Us Chickens. Barry Gordy, successful people often say that it's what they learn from the failures in their life that is actually the most important part of their life in that it sets them up for the future and helps them become successful later. You were twenty-three when you opened a little record shop in Detroit.

Presenter11:47

It didn't go well. You had to close it down after a couple of years. Why did it fail, and what did you learn?

Presenter11:53

I

Berry Gordy11:54

Was heavily into jazz, and so I opened up this jazz record store and uh

Berry Gordy12:01

In Detroit, the people that came in there were asking for the blues. They were factory workers and they wanted something to soothe themselves. You know, I lost my baby and I want it back or whatever. And I tried to educate these poor people because I felt that, you know, jazz is hip. You should not be listening to this other stuff. And they said, well, you know, I want to hear muddy waters, so you don't have money waters. I said, no, no, if you want money waters, you go down.

Berry Gordy12:30

on Hastings Street where they sell this kind of stuff. And the first thing I know, I had no money and I had to go bankrupt in my business. And so then I realized it was that simplicity in music

Berry Gordy12:45

that I would try to get.

Berry Gordy12:47

without making them all the same court changes. So when I went bankrupt in the record store, I took a job at the Ford Motor Company. A regular day on the assembly line was getting in the car, putting in my chrome, and getting out. That was as simple as that. But what I would do is I would skip down the line and go in other people's territories and see if I could get in when they weren't there or whatever. And I would get ahead of myself. And then I would take out a pencil and paper and I would write. So I wrote a lot of songs in the factory.

Presenter13:25

You were only in your mid-twenties then when you decided to quit the four production line and to take up songwriting full time. Yes. And you were young and that seems like a reasonable time to do it, but it also was a time when you were married and by that time I think you had three young kids. What did your wife say about your decision to quit your job on the on the production line?

Berry Gordy13:43

What did my wife say? Yes. Two words.

Presenter13:46

Uh

Berry Gordy13:46

Get Out. Oh.

Berry Gordy13:48

Okay.

Presenter13:48

Pit

Berry Gordy13:50

I went to my sister's house and told her that I didn't have a home because my wife had kicked me out and she said, What did you expect? You know, you quit your job. I said, Well, I can do something much better. I I got these songs that I've been writing and that day I sat down at her piano and I wrote the song To Be Loved.

Berry Gordy14:10

And the words came easily. Someone to care, someone to share, lonely hours and moments of despair to be loved. Easiest song I've ever had to write because I just thought about.

Berry Gordy14:18

What Was Happening to Me and Jackie Wilson of course recorded that and it was a hit.

Speaker 314:24

Someone to care.

Speaker 314:27

Someone to share

Speaker 314:31

Lonely hours and the moments of despair to belong, to be loved.

Speaker 314:41

Oh, what a feeling to be lonely.

Speaker 314:51

Someone to care.

Presenter14:54

Slip it. That was Jackie Wilson singing To Be Loved, and Berry Gordy, I have to tell our listeners, that very often when people play their music on Desert Island Discs they get lost in the moment, but for me that was a very unique experience. You were going through every line.

Presenter15:11

And feeling it and reliving it like that young man who wrote that song all those decades ago. When you listen to it now, what are your thoughts about that tune?

Berry Gordy15:19

The appreciation that I have for those that believed in me regardless, you know, followed me down roads that didn't even exist.

Presenter15:28

Well, you say those roads that didn't even exist. Let's talk for a moment about this road that you imagined that, goodness me, it turned into a five-lane highway. Let's talk about Motown.

Presenter15:37

This was a time, of course, of extreme ingrained racial prejudice in America. You would say, you know, that DJs would say, well, you know, I I don't want to play that'cause that's black music, or I don't want to see a black artist in the cover'cause it's going to put people off buying it.

Presenter15:51

Did you have reservations about molding these young black performers to make them?

Presenter15:56

let's say, you know, in quotations, acceptable to a highly prejudiced industry and also a highly prejudiced audience. Did you worry about that?

Berry Gordy16:06

No. I didn't worry about it because I was always believed in the principle that I could get it done, I could do it. I always felt my father was right. People are people. They have hearts. They laugh the same, cry the same, bleed the same, this and that and so forth. And there's certain kinds of people. There's good people and there's bad people.

Presenter16:29

There were literal moments, as I understand it, when Motown music brought black and white people together at a time when that was very unusual. I mean, they went on tours and there would be cordons down the middle of uh the performances where the black audience would be on one side, the white audience would be on the other.

Berry Gordy16:43

The audience would be

Presenter16:44

Is this a true story? I've heard that actually the chords came down and they all started dancing together because. Oh, yeah.

Berry Gordy16:49

Oh yes, yes. In in time, you know, it it uh and then when the ropes came down, it was music that did it. And that's how I met Dr. King. Incidentally, you know, he came by to see me and said, look at you're doing uh with social integration, what we're trying to do with political and other types of integration. We want to do business.

Presenter17:10

I'm going to ask you a lot more about Dr. King in just a second, but for now, I'm going to ask you about your next piece of music. We're on your fifth. Uh this

Berry Gordy17:17

This was a day that kind of changed my life. One of the biggest mistakes I made in my early days was to teach Smokey Robinson how to write songs. Smokey was always a great, great poet.

Berry Gordy17:32

But he came to me one day and he said, I have a song that I think you're going to like finally, because I turned down 90% of his songs, 95%. And he says it's called I'll Try Something New.

Berry Gordy17:48

And I said, okay, fine, let me hear it.

Berry Gordy17:51

It scared me actually and I felt bad because I said he can write songs better than I can.

Speaker 317:57

I will build you a castle with a tower so high It reaches the moon I'll gather melodies from birdies that fly

Berry Gordy18:09

30.

Berry Gordy18:11

Yeah.

Speaker 318:12

And compose you up to Give it love and warm and mama's loving and if that don't do Then I'll try something new

Presenter18:28

What a great thought. That was Smokey Robinson and the Miracles. I'll try something new. Barry Gordy, by the mid to late 60s, the civil rights struggle was reaching its peak all across America. I want you to cast your mind back to your home city, to Detroit in 1967. There were five days of riots, around about 1,000 people injured, 7,000 people arrested. There were 43 people who lost their lives during those riots.

Presenter18:53

What were your memories of Detroit at that time?

Berry Gordy18:55

Yeah.

Berry Gordy18:55

Uh it was chaotic. Um

Berry Gordy18:59

And that's another test that we went through over at Motown. My promotional department was mostly black because we dealt with disc jockeys. The sales department dealt with white distributors in the South, and we were a national company. We're all white. And the fires were getting closer to Motown. And we were in a black neighborhood, and they were there. At one point, I tried to get them to go home.

Berry Gordy19:26

I say, look at you guys. This is a race riot. You know, you're a race riot. And you're in the

Berry Gordy19:31

middle of the black neighborhood and you guys should go home'cause I love them. We were all like family.

Berry Gordy19:38

And I said, go home to your families. And the head guy said, maybe you don't know it, but this is our family.

Berry Gordy19:45

And we're staying here.

Berry Gordy19:47

And when did you meet Martin Luther King, Junior? Jesse Jackson came to me.

Berry Gordy19:52

And said, Dr. King wanted to meet me. And I was so flattered, I was just like, wow.

Berry Gordy19:59

Dr. King, are you kidding me? And he said, yes. So he came by and

Berry Gordy20:04

We talked and he told me that my music was bringing social integration.

Berry Gordy20:13

while he was trying to blink political

Berry Gordy20:16

and intellectual integration with people. And as he would hear people react to my music and stuff, he just felt it was just something that we should be able to do together because we're doing we're on the same path.

Presenter20:30

And indeed his speeches were issued on the Moturn label.

Berry Gordy20:33

Yes, we had three speeches on Motown Label. Great March on Washington, Great March to Freedom, and why I opposed the war in Vietnam. In fact, Dr. King signed a contract with me, one of my contract artists. But we became much more than that. We became really dear friends, and I learned a lot of philosophy from him about things that I was really interested in because coming from a neighborhood that I did where you fought back and you thiss and you know you had the survival of the fittest and stuff like that. And I told him about this turn the other cheek business. I said, Dr. King, will you please tell me personally why it's better if somebody slap you on one side of your face, you're going to turn the other side of your face? And he says, yes. And he said, because you have to remember there are more good people in the world than bad. The bad speak loud and they make a lot of noise, but there are more good people than bad. And if people have no reason to fear you.

Speaker 220:45

Me.

Berry Gordy21:33

The good people will stand up and I believe that.

Presenter21:38

We're going to hear your sixth disc of the morning. Tell me a bit about why you've chosen this lady.

Berry Gordy21:42

Um

Berry Gordy21:43

Billy Holiday

Berry Gordy21:45

She was such a great figure in my mind. She had some great songs. But God Bless the Child.

Berry Gordy21:52

It's got its own

Berry Gordy21:55

Taught me, you got to have your own, you need to be independent, you need to, your mama may have, papa may have, but God bless the child that's got his own.

Berry Gordy22:05

That spoke to me and it in some ways changed my thought about life and I started using that with other people that I was helping along the way. You know, get your own. Don't depend on people to do things for you and then hate them when they don't. Go out and get your own.

Speaker 322:26

Them that's got shall get, Them that's not shall lose. So the Bible said, And it still is new.

Speaker 322:40

Mama may have.

Berry Gordy22:41

Yeah.

Speaker 322:43

How for me have

Speaker 322:46

But God bless the child that's got his own.

Speaker 322:51

Let's go.

Presenter22:57

Billy Holiday and God Bless the Child. Barry Gordy, you are, as we all know, a very successful songwriter, a world class producer beyond compare, a great businessman. How would you rate yourself as a husband?

Presenter23:12

Um

Berry Gordy23:13

Yeah. As a husband, um

Berry Gordy23:18

Huh.

Berry Gordy23:19

I I really don't know.

Berry Gordy23:23

How I'd rerate myself. I certainly.

Berry Gordy23:26

I hadn't thought I hadn't thought about it.

Berry Gordy23:31

That's an interesting interesting question. I I don't know. I I I I've been married uh three times and uh

Berry Gordy23:40

Yeah.

Presenter23:40

I'll tell you why the reason I was'cause your marriages were all quite short. You know, I was looking down at the sort of pattern of your life. Yeah.

Berry Gordy23:44

Yeah,

Berry Gordy23:48

I am busy.

Berry Gordy23:51

me and straightforward and h you know, honest

Presenter23:55

You you're a father to eight kids. Father to eight kids, yeah. Some of whom have have gone into the music business.

Berry Gordy23:58

Some of who

Berry Gordy24:01

Yes.

Presenter24:02

What advice have you given them about how to negotiate?

Berry Gordy24:02

Yes?

Presenter24:06

You know, it's not

Berry Gordy24:06

No, it's how to be. The advice I give my kids is how to be.

Berry Gordy24:12

A good person, how to do the right things right, not the wrong things right or the right things wrong, but the right things right, if they can.

Berry Gordy24:21

Uh

Presenter24:21

We heard there, of course, Billie Holiday singing God Bless This Child. Diana Ross played Billie Holiday in the movie that you mentioned, that was Lady Sings the Blues, which I think came out in the early 70s. You were the producer. You had this very long-term professional relationship with Diana Ross, but you also had a child together. How would you characterize that relationship? It seems to have been one of the most momentous of your life.

Berry Gordy24:44

Yes, it was. All my relationships have just been wonderful, wonderful. Diana was very special. We are the best of friends today. She and I just are the greatest of friends as all Motana acts are that

Presenter25:00

Nope.

Berry Gordy25:00

Uh

Presenter25:00

I dealt with. When I introduced you today, I used a quote of yours to explain why you got into the music business. You wanted to write, make some money, get some girls.

Presenter25:09

It would seem that you've more than surpassed your goals.

Presenter25:12

What what have you learned along the way? You know, you've you've gone through this process in the last few years when you've written the stage show and you've written new music for that, and you've been looking at your life sort of in the round. What do you feel now, as a man in his eighties, about what you've learned about yourself and learned about life?

Berry Gordy25:28

Uh

Berry Gordy25:30

I learned that I'm very proud of my father's teachings and the people that I've met through my life like Dr. King and others who I've learned from and I'm very proud.

Berry Gordy25:45

of who I am and how I think.

Presenter25:47

Bang.

Berry Gordy25:48

Yeah.

Presenter25:48

It's time for some more music, Berry Gordy. We're going to listen to your seventh disc. Tell me about this and why you've chosen it.

Berry Gordy25:55

This is I Hear Symphony.

Berry Gordy25:57

And is Diana Ross in the Supremes?

Berry Gordy26:00

And it is just extremely special to me because Diana Ross and I had this this wonderful relationship.

Berry Gordy26:11

that turned into a great

Berry Gordy26:13

Love relationship.

Berry Gordy26:15

But I was more.

Berry Gordy26:17

Intense

Berry Gordy26:20

and interested in making her the biggest star in the world.

Berry Gordy26:23

managing her and

Berry Gordy26:26

Developing her career was the greatest joy.

Berry Gordy26:30

that I had.

Berry Gordy26:31

when I hear I hear a symphony, when I think about her, and it was kind of our song together, that whenever she would sing it, it was like she, um

Berry Gordy26:44

would be singing it to me, you know, I felt.

Speaker 326:46

You've given me your true love

Speaker 326:50

And every day I find your love

Speaker 326:53

For giving back so many

Speaker 326:56

So inviting, so exciting Whenever you're near, I hear a symphony

Speaker 327:09

Pulling me closer, closer to your heart Then suddenly

Presenter27:18

That was Diana Ross and the Supremes and I Here a Symphony. When we started talking today, you said that the most important thing when you set out to make music with Motown Records was that there had to be truth, there had to be honesty. And actually, if you don't have that at the heart of making music and at the heart of a song, it will be ineffective.

Presenter27:40

When you're talking to the music makers of today, I can't imagine that, you know, some of the w if you're in a room, they must make a B line for you, you know, the man who knew how to make golden hit after golden hit.

Presenter27:50

Do they seek your advice? Do they look for your wisdom? Do they want to know how to make hits like you used to make hits? Yeah.

Berry Gordy27:56

People talk to me a lot. I don't know the answers because I don't study the answers. You know, all I know is.

Berry Gordy28:04

If you build it, they will come. Or if you make good music, it'll find its way. It's harder today because of the delivery systems. But in the final analysis,

Berry Gordy28:19

It's still going to be creativity and quality stuff that's going to break through.

Berry Gordy28:26

after the dust settles or whatever, you know.

Presenter28:29

So I'm guessing that the big issue there, of course, for the music industry right now is not, as you say, you know, build it and they will come. If something's good, people want to listen to beautiful music that moves them. I guess it's whether or not people are willing to pay for that music in the same way that they did in days gone by. Do you think that you occupied that sort of golden era when everybody could get rich making great music?

Berry Gordy28:44

Do you think

Berry Gordy28:50

Yeah.

Berry Gordy28:51

Well, people can still get rich by doing great things. Music is part of it. Festivals or traveling or making apps. I mean, there's still creative

Berry Gordy29:04

Areas out there that people right now today could sit down and figure out, okay, I'm willing to put the effort, money, and

Berry Gordy29:13

Genius in doing something. Right today, it could start something because technology is just moving faster than the speed of light.

Presenter29:21

I want you to tell me about this final piece of music, then. What are we going to hear?

Berry Gordy29:25

It cannot close the door.

Berry Gordy29:28

And it's from Motown the Musical.

Berry Gordy29:31

Sung by Brandon Victor Dixon, the the gentleman who played me on Broadway.

Presenter29:36

And this is all about your life, your experience from your perspective of your life.

Berry Gordy29:40

And this particular song was written by me and a co writer called Michael Lussmith. And in my life with the Motown People, the truth is that

Berry Gordy29:55

Many of them were bought away by these companies with the power and the money.

Berry Gordy30:01

Including Diana Ross, who left for $20 million to go to RCA and so forth. And a few years later,

Berry Gordy30:09

They all

Berry Gordy30:11

Came from wherever they were in the world with their successes and all that, together with the artists that stayed.

Berry Gordy30:19

And they were putting on this show for me. They all wanted to come back after twenty five years and celebrate me. And I refused to go because I

Berry Gordy30:32

was had been so hurt that they left me at a critical time in my career, right before the show,'cause I kept saying I was not going and they were begging me to come and Smokey had told me, you know, that these people had come from wherever they were in the world.

Berry Gordy30:48

just to come back and honor me.

Berry Gordy30:50

And I wasn't going, and how sad that was.

Berry Gordy30:54

and it turned out that I could not close the door.

Berry Gordy30:58

on these people.

Berry Gordy31:00

You know, if it had been me and their situation,

Berry Gordy31:03

And somebody offered me $20 million, you know.

Berry Gordy31:06

But I might have gone to

Speaker 331:13

Oh no.

Speaker 331:15

Can I say goodbye to all we dreamed of?

Speaker 331:22

We're like lyrics in a song

Speaker 331:25

We've been right and we've been right

Speaker 331:29

Can I close the door on love?

Speaker 331:39

Want it to be the

Presenter31:41

From the Broadway production of Motown the Musical. That was Brandon Victor Dixon singing Can I Close the Door? So, Berry Gordy, it's time for me to give you some books now.

Presenter31:52

I give you uh the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare, and to go to this island you get to take one other book to go along with them. What's your book going to be, I wonder?

Berry Gordy32:01

Yeah.

Berry Gordy32:02

Well, I thought about that and uh actually I would take a poem that represents a book to me. It was like The Book of My Life by um Rudyard Kipling.

Presenter32:17

This is the Rudyard Kipling poem If, isn't it? If by Rudyard Kipling. So we will give you the collected works of Rudyard Kipling, and in that will be the poem If.

Presenter32:27

You're allowed a luxury on this island of ours something to make life just a little bit more bearable. What's your luxury going to be?

Berry Gordy32:35

Well, that was a tough one because, you know, having all these records, you know, I thought of so many things. First of all, a solar-powered record player. We are going to give you.

Presenter32:45

I'm going to give you a

Berry Gordy32:46

Your record for

Presenter32:46

So play the mono. Say that. So, aside from a record player, what would be your lunch? I do drink wine, so.

Berry Gordy32:48

There was a song

Berry Gordy32:50

Okay, so

Presenter32:53

Shall we give you a cellar of wines? Should that be your luxury?

Berry Gordy32:53

Yeah.

Presenter32:56

It would be nice to have a seller.

Speaker 332:56

Yeah.

Presenter32:59

That's what we'll give you then. We'll give you a cellar of your favorite wines to while away the days on the island. And if you had to save just one of these eight discs from the waves, if they were threatened to be washed away, which one would you want to save from the waves?

Berry Gordy33:14

I would probably save I Hear a Symphony.

Presenter33:16

Yeah.

Presenter33:18

It's yours. Barry Gordy, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Berry Gordy33:23

Thank you so much. It was so much fun and so tough.

Presenter34:11

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.