Alex Crawford

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Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons, the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

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For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

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My castaway this week is the TV news correspondent Alex Crawford. She has won the Royal Television Society's Journalist of the Year Award an unprecedented four times, reporting from the world's worst warzones and hotspots. Where most people would frankly do anything to stay well away from trouble, she seems drawn to danger, whether it's covering the Ebola crisis in Liberia, hunting for rhino poachers in South Africa, or being first on the scene as the drama of Libya's revolution unfolded. Maybe chaos and flux are comfortingly familiar. She did, after all, spend the first five years of her life in Nigeria, where her family survived two political coups. Most swashbuckling war reporters will extol the virtues of keeping a cool emotional distance from the story. By contrast, she says, you've got to be able to feel the pain. If you become desensitised, you need help. It's like putting your hand into a fire. If you don't feel it, you're going to get burned up. And so welcome, Alex Crawford. That's a very interesting thing to say, that you have to be able to feel the pain. How much pain is safe to feel? I think when it gets too painful, you'll realise that you can't cope. And I remember one of my editors, my foreign editor, told me, right at the beginning when I was just starting my sort of foreign correspondency stint of my career, he said, you've got to be careful because you will fill up. And so that's filling up with the emotional impact and the sadness, presumably. There's a lot of sadness that wells up. You can't escape the scars that are left after seeing people die or get horribly hurt or maimed. I mean, you'd have to be a robot not to be affected by that.

Alex Crawford1:58

Yeah.

Alex Crawford2:01

Yeah.

Presenter2:15

One of the most famous and certainly one of the most notable points in your career must have been when you broadcast live from Libya from the back of a pickup truck. It was as rebels were claiming victory over Colonel Gaddafi and his regime. All the other journalists were hauled up in their hotel rooms, presumably watching you rather jealously on T V. How come you got out there and they didn't? What had you done?

Presenter2:36

I have no idea why I was there and they weren't. I really don't. And I saw all these armed trucks going and they were saying they were going into Tripoli. We were on the outskirts, which was slightly safer. And I said to my producer, listen, you stay and we'll go. And then the producer, at the last minute, jumped on. And thank God he did, because everyone played a really fundamental role. And he was the one who came up with the idea of attaching the B-gambler. So that little satellite dish, it's a tiny piece of kit, and it was pretty unpredictable. It's about the size of a laptop. And for that signal to work, you need to be stationary.

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We found ourselves in this long traffic jam of rebels which was getting more and more busy and full as we drove into the center of Tripoli. And so he said, well let's try and fix it up using the cigarette lighter as power, because also it drains battery, so you need to have power. And he just kept manually moving it and repositioning it and somehow it worked.

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Tell me about the first of your choices this morning then. What are we going to hear first off? The first one is Pata Pata by Miriam McCabe. And she was a stonking anti-apartheid civil rights activist from Johannesburg, which is where I'm living at the moment. She brought a Zulu song to the West and made it cool and highlighted so much injustice in the world at that time, particularly in South Africa.

Speaker 34:04

Saku Puga Sati Bega Da Tapa, Saku Puga Sati Bega, that Tapa, Saku Puga Sati Pega, that Tapa, Saku Puga Sati Bega, the Tata Maiama, the T pata potai yam o my yama, a tip, ay omo my

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Miriam McKeba and Pata Pata. So, Alex Crawford, your job title is, I believe, special correspondent for Sky News. You have been posted to South Africa since 2011. Given that that is home, how much time do you spend home? Not as much as I'd like. I mean, I've lived there for like four years and I still don't know loads of obvious places in Johannesburg. But my family are incredibly tolerant of it. You've won an almost hilarious amount of awards. When I was going through them, I thought, well, this is starting to get ridiculous. But let's for a moment concentrate on your BAFTA that you and your team won in 2015 for your coverage of the Eboda crisis in Liberia. Those important bits of footage that you got and the reports that you ran made an impact. And you decided you wanted to go back for a second time. Well, I wanted to go back straight away because I realised it was a massive story and it was going to get much worse. When we all saw what was going on, I thought that it's going to spread very quickly because our first story was there were 12 people fighting it in the epicentre with very little government help. We spent hours getting there through this no roads and all that. And when we got there, the epicentre had no one there. The epicentre.

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We tooted and tooted because thought when, you know, where is everyone? They came running down, said eleven people have died today. And I thought, none of this is actually being recorded. The figures are so out of date already.

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And they are all terrified.

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The reaction when we went back the second and the third time was much more extreme because people were starting to say you had to be in isolation for three weeks and all of this sort of thing. And I was in the middle, my crew were in the middle of covering the Oscar Pistoris trial. And we sort of took time off from the Oscar Pistorius trial to go into Sierra Leone and we followed the body collectors who were like at the front line of this because they literally went into the shacks, picked up the dead people. I mean, they were incredible human beings. And I wanted to give a sense of what these people were feeling and what the body collectors were going through to do it. And the first day I was with my crew and we went out and we came back and they were like, oh, that was, geez, that was hectic, because obviously it's like wall-to-wall dead people being picked up and huge fear in the community. And I looked at the pictures and I.

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Now guys, I think we're going to have to go back. I just don't feel like we're getting the real sense of what's going on here. They looked at me and said, what? So we went out again. My cameraman got this amazing footage. There was silence, but you could hear the fear. Let's have your second disc then. Tell me about this. What are we going to hear? Waka-waka-bashikira. Oh my god, what a song. I love it because we were just arriving, my family to live in South Africa around about the time this was coming out. We missed the World Cup, unfortunately, there. But this song felt like it was our anthem in Africa. I just love it.

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Yeah.

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Hey, hey, Samiami and San Calegua, this time for Africa.

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Listen to your dad, this is our motto. Your attempt to shine, don't wait in line, even

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That was Waka Waka by Shakira, featuring Freshly Ground, and it was the official twenty ten World Cup theme for South Africa. Alex Crawford, let's talk for a moment about your background then. Your parents were living in Nigeria right up until your birth. What had taken them to Nigeria?

Presenter8:28

They went separately. They met and married in Nigeria, which in itself is quite extraordinary. My mother was half Chinese, and she was born and brought up in Shanghai and then bombed, and they all were put in prisoner of war camps. Her family, she was in a big family of six children. And she actually came to Britain as a refugee, to England as a refugee. And then I think their circumstances were quite different. She was I don't think it was very luxurious and she seemed to have spent most of her teens desperate to go out and be independent. So she saved up for a one-way ticket because that's all she could afford on a ship, a French mailboat to Nigeria to join her much older sister who was already married and working in Nigeria. And my father, who was Scottish, also seemed to have spent most of his childhood working hard to get out and travel and things. And he first ended up going to Australia and then went to Nigeria again to work. And they met in the same company. Here's the interesting thing. Your father was the son of a miner from Stirlingshire in Scotland. And in his generation, it would have absolutely been the case that the sons of miners.

Presenter9:42

Went down the mine. He was a single child, although his grandmother came from one of 13. They obviously took a conscious decision: we're going to focus our entire lives on this one child. And he got a scholarship and he went down the mine. And I remember him telling my sister and I, You don't want to go down a mine. And he was just determined to get out. He went to university and he went to university and he just wanted to get away. He loved Scotland. He continued to have this incredibly strong Scottish accent and was Scottish abroad, you know, always citing, you know, rabby burns and singing and all that. And he's saying, Dad, you haven't been in Scotland for 20 years. He had a wanderlust and he wanted to explore and have adventures, and that's what he did.

Alex Crawford10:03

He went to univers?

Alex Crawford10:05

He will

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Let's have some more music. Tell me about your third.

Presenter10:34

Lulu was one of my father's favourites, not just because she was Scottish, but also because she was someone who'd made it from a pretty poor background. And she represented hope, she was really feisty, she had this incredible voice, and he just loved everything about her, and that meant we did too.

Alex Crawford10:56

Yeah.

Alex Crawford10:58

Yeah.

Alex Crawford10:59

No

Alex Crawford11:02

You know you'll make me wanna shine

Alex Crawford11:04

Ah

Alex Crawford11:10

Don't forget to say you will

Alex Crawford11:12

Yeah, don't forget the shop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, don't forget, yeah.

Alex Crawford11:22

Come on.

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That was Lulu Gonnard Dinger there with shout. We both were enjoying that, Alex Crawford. And as you say, memories of your father's Scottish background and all that it meant as you were growing up. Were you at school in Nigeria, or you'd moved by then? No, we'd moved, we've spent the first five years in Nigeria. My sister was born there. Then we moved, we had like a less than a year in England, and then we all went out to Zambia. He got a job in Zambia. He was an engineer?

Alex Crawford11:40

Right.

Presenter11:48

Yeah, he was a civil engineer. That's what we spent our weekends doing, going round his houses that he'd built, his roads that he'd built, dams. They were a good Sunday outing. He took us there and we first went to the convent in Kitwi, a little town which didn't have anything in it then. And then when I was about eight, nine, they sent us to boarding school in what was then Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, because they felt there was a limited amount of educational opportunities in Kitwi. Were you a good schoolgirl? Oh no, I think I was pretty bad. I mean I was good at sport and I liked doing it.

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I wasn't very academic. I remember sitting in the rooms catching flying ants, along with all the others who were perpetually hungry.

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Were you easing the ants? Yeah.

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Uh

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Um so you finally ended up being sent to boarding school in Kent to do your A levels, and that must have surely been a actually quite a significant culture shock, given how you'd spent your days. Yeah, it was a real gear change. I mean they my my parents spent a long time trying to find a school that we thought would be sporty'cause we were very into sport, but also be liberal enough. And they found a really lovely school, but I remember when we first went there.

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thinking everyone spoke in these really strange accents, which I now have.

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But it sounded very snooty to us. Is it true that you started a girls was it I don't know if it was a football team or a rugby team? It was a rugby team until one of them got a broken collarbone and then they asked me to stop it. And you started the school newspaper too?

Alex Crawford13:16

Yeah.

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Yeah, it was a newspaper run by pretty much one person, which was me.

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I corralled a few of my friends in, but I used to just go into the art room and print it all off and then hand it out. It was never an official sort of thing. I think I look now at the school and they've got a very fancy magazine and a newspaper. I think, hmm. Let's have your next piece of music. We're on your fourth. Why have you chosen this, Alex Crawford?

Presenter13:45

We were in India for about five years, myself and my family. It was my first foreign posting and Slum Dog Millionaire came out when we were there. It was quite a controversial film in India because the Indians felt it was unfairly representative, but actually it was a cracking film. My um and partner Richard was in hospital at the time and we were sitting there on the day of the Oscars and the doctors just kept on coming in, We've got four, we've got six.

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So, um Chai Ho is the the big song of the movie and it's brilliant I think.

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From the film Slum Dog Millionaire, that was Jai Ho by A. R. Rahman. How come you chose journalism?

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What was it?

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Mm.

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I think, you know, I was always unwittingly interested in it. There are no journalists in my family. There's no background at all in it. You couldn't do a a j a university degree then. You basically got work and you begged people to take you on. I rather ridiculously used to play at radio at home. I don't even know why I did that, but I remember saying, This is Alex Crawford on the radio news. But I didn't think of that as a career because it seemed like too much fun. It was my mother who sort of said

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She brought me a a newspaper advert which was calling on people to apply for this course.

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Then I went to a couple of the interviews. But were you conscious of of looking at T V and thinking, I I'd I'd like that job. That that seems good. No, I wasn't. We didn't have T V when I was growing up. I remember when T V started in Zambia, and it started with one hour a night.

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and it was black and white, and it had the flintstones on. And I only came to England when I was sixteen.

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And I remember going for this NCTJ training course and applying for it, and the test was All Current Affairs, and I remember sitting doing it and thinking, I don't know the answer to any of these.

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And I obviously didn't get anywhere on that one. And I went back and thought, geez, if I really want to be a journalist, I need to start reading more newspapers. At sixteen, seventeen, I wasn't reading news. I was in boarding school. We weren't even allowed access to T V in boarding school. So when I left school, all I had were r a set of rather poor qualifications that wouldn't really get me into anywhere. When it came to the Thompson Regional Newspapers interview, you did well. You got the job as a trainee. And what sort of tasks were you given? Was it sort of covering the dog show and that kind of thing? You learnt the basics on the training course. And then from then on, you did everything. I had an invaluable training at the Wokingham Times because it was small. I was basketball correspondent and covered the theatre reviews and I was film critic. Oh, I loved that one. And I applied to the PBC on their training course. Everything was such fun. It was such fun in those days.

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Let's have some more music, Alex Crawford. Tell me about this. This is your fifth.

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Big Girls Don't Cry by Fergie. I mean I love Fergie and this was the song that was on my iPhone when I was travelling through Afghanistan endlessly, on trip after trip after trip. And it just reminds me of that time when we were driving through all this jagged countryside and going off to meet armed fighters and poor people in the far reaches of Afghanistan.

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You know, I hope you know that this is nothing to do with it. It's personal, myself and I. We got some

Speaker 318:00

Straightening ain't out to do. And I'm gonna miss you. Let me child misses that blanket. But I'm gonna get a move on with my life. Uh

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Top To be a big gun out.

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That was Big Girls Don't Cry by Fergie. So, Alex, of course it's clear from talking to you that there will have been many times in your working life when you have feared for your safety. Is there, however, a particular time when you have genuinely feared for your life?

Presenter18:33

Yeah, there have been a number of occasions, but the one that absolutely stands out is when I got trapped with Tim Miller and Martin Smith, who were my crew at the time, in a mosque in Libya. And we weren't just trapped in the mosque, we were trapped in the town for four days. So the mosque lasted for about four hours. And that was probably one of the worst experiences, I would say, of my life. It's very hard watching people get killed, and there were a lot. And it was also very, very frightening. We were right next to the perimeter wall of the mosque, and outside there were at least two tanks. And if you were right on top of a tank...

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And it's firing, it's an enormous powerful booming noise.

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And there was lots and lots of machine guns and rifles and AK forty seven s going as well. It was just a l huge cacophony of noise, there was smells of people bleeding.

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And we were in a small little storeroom, and I was sitting in the corner just watching this, feeling one.

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useless because I couldn't do anything to help these people.'Cause it it also wasn't a case of being on one side or the other.'Cause these are all civilians, remember? People who had little briefcases'cause they'd been on the way to work.

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It's not hyperbole to say it was terrifying. When we got out of there,'cause this fighting stopped, there was a lull in the fighting. And they took us out in an ambulance and raced us through and they fired at us in the ambulance. You know, so it's like terror upon terror, fear upon fear. It's even frightening recounting it. I can tell. I can tell by the look on your face.

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I actually don't want to think about it and when it's so raw like that, I find it r almost impossible to talk about it, and I'd rather shut it off in a little room.

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and closed the door.

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Why

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Having been through something like that, do you continue to do the job you do? Why not say?

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I'm shutting the door on that part of my life. I've seen that now, and I don't ever want to go back there. I I'd rather not see something like that again, that's for sure. But I think if I shut that door and didn't do

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The job that I think is a worthy job if you do it well, I feel like I was failing.

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I don't want to fail.

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How much do you think you've been marked and changed by the job you do?

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In a b the bad way is I'm really irritable and sort of a bit intolerant of

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People, I'm gonna work on that.

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The good way is when I see people who are really brave.

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like the doctors who took us out even.

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Like the nurses who were helping people. That is incredibly inspiring.

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It's time for some more music, Alex Crawford, so let let's do that. Tell me about this. We're going to go to your sixth disc.

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This is one of my most favorite songs in the world. It's like incredibly optimistic. I want to cling on to it and and wrap it round me all the time.

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And my daughter Flo, my youngest daughter Flo, the thing is when you when you have children, I'm sure you've found this yourself, you sort of think, first one's wow, you've not heard anything like it and you think the second one will be you've cracked it and the second one will be exactly the same as the first one and then you realize they're nothing like the first one, it's like starting all over again. And now I've got to the fourth one and she is so bright and positive about absolutely everything and she loves singing, so I thought.

Presenter22:36

I want her to sing my most favourite song in the world, and she does it really well.

Alex Crawford22:44

I see skies of blue, clouds of white, bright blessed days, the dark sacred nights, and I think to myself

Alex Crawford23:02

What a wonderful world!

Presenter23:10

What a wonderful world, sung by my castaway Alex Crawford's youngest daughter, Flo Edmondson. So, Alex Crawford, you've been, I think, arrested, detained, almost abducted, interrogated, faced live bullets, tear gas, mortar shells, and on it goes. And as we know, you say you're a mother of four children. When you return from those intense postings?

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How easy is it for you, and how easy is it for your husband and children to welcome you back?

Presenter23:38

I don't think it is easy. I think it's harder for them actually in a lot of ways. I think my children have gone through different phases of being angry, fed up, ignoring me. I remember when they were younger, particularly my older daughter now, used to say, um, you don't like us as much as work which that really stings. Really stings'cause uh they're they are my world.

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And that the child would go so quickly. I looked back and I remember my partner, Rick, saying that you're going to regret it and a lot of me does regret it spending too much time away from them when they were little. It goes so quickly.

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But

Presenter24:25

Do you see an end to it? Do you think it's it's time to stop now?

Presenter24:28

Oh no, of course no.

Presenter24:32

No, definitely not. So what do you do with that regret then? Because you know you're out. I just cry.

Alex Crawford24:34

Uh

Speaker 224:34

So now what do you

Speaker 224:37

I

Presenter24:40

I think, Oh, you miserable, selfish idiot, why did you spend so much? And I I'd uh you know, occasionally I'd sort of wallow in this nostalgic sort of

Presenter24:51

You should have done this, should have done that. But I have girlfriends who are stay-at-home mums, and my close friend tells me, You you'd be exactly the same, you know, if you were a stay-at-home mum, you'd still feel guilty. I think it's just a cross that we have to bear. I remember, um, you know, talking to my kids about eating, for instance, you know, eat that, because the kids in Baghdad don't get that. And uh one of them saying, I think it was Maddie, saying, Well, go back to the kids in Baghdad then, or take it to the kids in Baghdad, you know,'cause we don't want it.

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And um

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They want their time with their mum. Tell me about your seventh, then. What are we going to hear now? This is Bang Bang by Jessie J and her co-workers, Ariana Grande and Nikki Minaj. I liked this, not only because it's a foot-stomping, fantastic song, it also seemed to me that I really liked the collaboration of the three women who are all really different and yet managed to do it in an incredible arms through each other way, you know, in a real sisterhood sort of way.

Alex Crawford25:57

She might have let you hold her hand in school. But I'ma show you how to graduate. No other lady did you.

Alex Crawford26:06

Show me that mamma game

Presenter26:09

Okay.

Alex Crawford26:11

Yeah.

Alex Crawford26:16

Say anybody come be good to you. You need a bag of all your money.

Alex Crawford26:22

Right into the room.

Presenter26:26

That was Bang Bang, performed by Jesse J., Ariana Grande, and Nikki Minaj. Many journalists who put themselves in difficult circumstances say this. It is so important that the stories are told in order that we understand our world better, and it is so important that foreign correspondents give a voice to people who very often do not have a voice. But I wonder, in going into conflict zones...

Presenter26:48

Giving a voice to people who wouldn't otherwise have a voice, if you were to die doing that job, do you feel that the equation would have been worth it?

Presenter26:59

I don't want to die. I definitely don't want to die. I've got too much in my life with my children, my family. I definitely don't want to die. I think there is luck and I've been very, very lucky. And I'm aware that that luck only goes so far.

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We're an essential pillar of freedom and democracy. That's what we should be. You know, we should be the people that are finding out the uncomfortable truths, who are going the places where no one goes because there's something that needs to be found out about.

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But why does it need to be you? I think everything that you've said, everybody that works broadly in journalism would say, Well, three cheers to that Their follow up thought would be But it doesn't need to be me. I'll let somebody else do that.

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I thought whenever I was going out when my children were very small, every story I had to do, and I think even more so now, but every story that took me away from them

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Had to really be worth it. Otherwise, it was not worth being away from little ones crying at night or teenagers going through really difficult period at school. It has to be worth it. Otherwise, why on earth am I doing it? You know, if you just make a difference to one little girl who's been kept in sexual and domestic slavery, you come out of that and you think

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That actually makes you feel that you've actually

Presenter28:32

influenced and changed someone else's life course. I imagine you will cope admirably with the desert island. I mean, you're you're you know what? I can't think of anything worse than being stranded on a desert island on my own.

Alex Crawford28:40

Uh you know what I mean.

Presenter28:46

'Cause I don't much like being on my own. I much prefer being with people. I don't know whether I'd cope. I'd have to. You would. You're going to. Yeah.

Speaker 328:54

You but

Alex Crawford28:55

Yeah.

Presenter28:56

Let's hear your final piece of music, Alex.

Presenter28:58

I chose this particularly because my three girls are I mean I'm struggling to find an adjective that actually encapsulates how strongly they feel about being feminists because they are like the most ardent, the most fervent and this bit of music encapsulates what they feel about the world, the irony that Beyoncé uses and the reading in it is their kind of mantra. And I sort of think, okay, I might be the worst mother in the world. I might not have a maternal instinct in my body, which is what one of them says to me. But if they think this is the way to be, whoa.

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We teach girls to shrink themselves, to make themselves smaller. We say to girls.

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You can have ambition, but not too much.

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You should aim to be successful, but not too successful, otherwise you will threaten the man.

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Because I am female, I am expected to aspire to marriage.

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I'm expected to make my life choices, always keeping in mind that marriage is the most important.

Speaker 330:02

A marriage can be a society of joy and love and mutual support.

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America.

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That was Beyoncé's Flawless, featuring Jim Amanda and Gozi Adice, and I have to say that our castaway Alex Crawford is not absolutely delighted because we didn't play exactly the bit you wanted for reasons of uh taste and decency in the morning on Radio Four. And he chose it for that.

Alex Crawford30:21

I don't

Presenter30:24

We're going now to the books then. Every castaway gets the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to take to this island, and they get to take a book of their own along with them. What will your book be?

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This is also one that I struggled with, but the one that I remember that made a real impact on me when I was a child and now my own children are studying. It's probably a a massive cliche, but I loved To Kill a Mockingbird.

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And there were so many parts of that story that I found were quite uplifting.

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I just love it. That's yours then. And you're allowed a luxury, too. Something that will make.

Alex Crawford30:53

I just love

Presenter30:58

Life a little bit more bearable alone on the island. What will your luxury be? Can I take a scuba diving kit with me? Yes, because.

Presenter31:06

I thought about uh photographic albums and I know my my whole family will be appalled that I haven't gone for the full works of you know Nat, Frankie, Maddie, Flo and Richard all huddled round various different parts of the world. But that that's in my head. I thought a scuba diving kit, which is the thing that I love most about doing with my family. Plus, down there, even I can't talk.

Presenter31:30

And it's beautifully calm. You may certainly have that. And if I were to ask you to pick just one disc of the eight above all others that you'd save, which one would it be? I think that's a no-brainer, because it's got to be Flo's, What a Wonderful World, because it combines everything. My family, Flo, fantastic song that would actually keep me happy. Right, it's yours then. Alex Crawford, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thanks for inviting me.

Presenter32:36

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website, bbc.co.uk slash Radio 4.