Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon

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Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons, the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

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For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk slash radio four.

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My castaway this week is Nicholas Sturgeon, Scotland's First Minister and Leader of the SNP. She is.

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That rare and fascinating animal, a politician admired even by many who strongly disagree with her politics.

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This year she took her party to staggering success at the general election, all but wiping out the opposition by winning fifty six of Scotland's fifty nine Westminster seats.

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Since she became party leader, the SNP's membership has quadrupled.

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Whether she is being huckled aside for yet another selfie on the street, or incisively marshalling her argument in the televised leaders' debates, it is her twin ability to appear both super smart and untypically straightforward that seems to connect with the electorate.

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Everything in her background points to an entirely ordinary nineteen seventies West of Scotland upbringing dad an electrician, mum a dental nurse, days spent in a nice wee local school

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By the age of just sixteen she'd forsaken the delights of Frosty's icedco at the Irvin Magnum Centre to immerse herself in local politics, which, she admits, makes her sound like a really weird teenager.

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By the age of twenty one she was the youngest candidate standing at the nineteen ninety two general election. She says

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I'm a child of the Thatcher years. I came into politics because of my desire for social justice and greater equality. My background, where I grew up, all of that has conditioned my perspective. So welcome, First Minister. It has, of course, been quite a twelve months. We've had Scotland's historic independence vote in September last year. Of course, that vote was lost to you by 55% of 45%.

Speaker 22:02

Thank you.

Speaker 22:04

We've had

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You then took over, unopposed, as Alex Salmon's replacement. And then in May of this year we had, as I said, your party's really stunning achievement of decimating Scottish Labour at the election.

Presenter2:25

It seems like it's been a roller coaster from the outside. How has it been from the inside?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon2:31

Uh

Presenter2:31

It's been a roller coaster.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon2:31

From the inside as well. I came out of the 18th of September totally and utterly devastated. I had given my heart and soul, as had many other people, to trying to win a yes vote. We'd come very close, closer than many people thought we might. So I was devastated in floods of tears. And as that was all happening, Alex Salmon told me he was going to step down as party leader the day after the referendum and there was no change in his mind. I actually tried very hard to change his mind. So suddenly, out of that exhaustion and devastation, I just saw my entire life change before me.

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So that's the low of the roller coaster. Let's go to one of the highs, well, the high, really, which, of course, was the general election in May. David Cameron said that.

Presenter3:11

He allowed himself a short nap on the morning of the eighth of May, and he said he he woke up and thought he'd died and gone to heaven. So how was it for you?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon3:19

I did get a nap. I got a flight down to London actually for the VE Day celebration, so I knew I was going to see David Cameron, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg. So there was a sort of surreal element to all of that. But it was euphoria. I mean, I've campaigned for the SNP all of my adult life, and at times, many, many times over these years, it seemed as if defeating Labour in a Westminster election in their heartlands was just the impossible task. So for suddenly that to happen was a huge moment of euphoria.

Presenter3:52

There increasingly seem to be quite a few areas of policy that seem to unite you with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, you know, thinking of things like anti-austerity.

Speaker 24:00

You have things that

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antitridon and so on and so on.

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Is Jeremy Corbyn somebody you admire? Do you admire his politics? Do you think he'll make he would make a good Prime Minister?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon4:09

I've never met Jerry McCorb, but I'm sure that will change in the not too distant future.

Presenter4:09

The

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon4:12

So I don't feel able to kind of judge him on a personal basis or judge his character. The doubt I have about Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party is about his ability to take the Labour Party with him, and there's not going to be perhaps too much benefit to anybody in having the leader of a Labour Party who, you know, for example, is against Trident if the rest of the party is for that. But you know, I am open to working with them on issues where we've got common ground.

Presenter4:39

Now Nicolas Durgin, you are of course a veteran of the political interview and today you're hopefully going to be talking not just a little bit of politics, but but I want to ask you a lot about yourself. I mean I'm presuming this is your list. You know, there's always that speculation for a politician.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon4:50

There's always that speculation for the population. For better or worse. This is all me. Um and some of it, uh as you can you can probably guess which ones I I might take some time to live down when I get back home to Scotland.

Presenter5:01

Let's hear your first piece of music then, Nicola Sturgeon. Tell me about this. Yes, here we go.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon5:04

Yes, here we go. This is yeah I had a childhood obsession uh with the wonderful Scylla Black. Uh she was probably the the cause of my first probably not my first ever tantrum, the first ever tantrum I remember as a child when I stood in Little Woods demanding to get uh her album bought for me and my mum and dad said no and my wonderful granddad came along and rode to the rescue and bought it for me. So this is Scylla Black, Step Inside Love.

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Step inside, love.

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Let me find you a place

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Where the cares of the day will be carried away By the smile on your face

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We are together now and forever.

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Come my way

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Step inside, blah!

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And see, step brings my heart.

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Step frings like the

Presenter6:02

That was Scylla Black and Step Inside, Love. A wry laugh you're allowing yourself, Nicholas Durgin. She was wonderful. So David Cameron then has, as we all know, promised this in-out referendum on Europe before the end of twenty seventeen. You have said to date, as I understand it, that if the UK as a whole votes to come out of Europe, but Scotland

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon6:04

Arrived.

Speaker 26:05

I

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon6:05

Uh

Speaker 26:05

The

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon6:06

She was

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votes as a country to stay in Europe, that would

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Trigger another independence referendum, that it would really, in essence, be unstoppable under those circumstances. And I'm wondering what happened.

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To last year's promise that the independence referendum was going to be, as both you and Alex Salmon said, a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon6:42

Well, I said it could make a referendum unstoppable. The once in a generation, once in a lifetime, if that's what people in Scotland want the independence referendum to be, that's exactly what it will be. You know, if we remember back to the independence referendum, many people in the no' campaign tried to persuade people in Scotland to vote no on the basis that that was the only way to guarantee our membership of the European Union. So if we find that membership jeopardised now, I just think there will be a groundswell of opinion in Scotland that says we should look at the independence question again. But I hasten to add, I hope that doesn't happen. I will be making the case for Scotland and the UK as a whole to vote to stay in the European Union. So in a sense, I hope the scenario that I'm describing doesn't arrive.

Presenter7:25

But just to be clear, if there is a very straight delineated vote around about Scotland that says yes, we the Scottish want to stay in and we are different from the rest of the UK in that they voted to go out, are you saying that you will petition David Cameron for a second vote on independence?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon7:39

I think we'd obviously would need to see what the the opinion was around the time. What I'm saying at this point is I think opinion polls or political opinion? No, I may get it wrong. Maybe people wouldn't have the groundswell of of opinion. I just happen to think that there would be that groundswell of opinion. So I think in those circumstances I think there would be

Presenter7:45

14 minutes.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon7:58

A significant body of opinion in Scotland that was clamouring and asking me to bring forward another referendum.

Presenter8:05

Your predecessor, I think, would have said, in fact, Alex Salmond has very recently said, that it's as near as inevitable as anything can be in politics that that would trigger that.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon8:11

Yeah.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon8:13

I think Scotland will become an independent country. I I've believed that for a long time. I I probably believe it more now than I did before the referendum. But what what I'm saying is that it won't happen just because I want it to happen. And there's a definite sense in Scotland that the big decisions are for the people, not for politicians alone to take.

Presenter8:29

There is a thread of the pragmatic, consensual politician that seems to run through you, and I wonder under those circumstances what do you make of

Presenter8:37

Those people in the other parts of the United Kingdom who felt very strongly and very dearly that they really didn't want Scotland to leave. What would you say to comfort them?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon8:44

Yeah.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon8:47

Well, two things. Firstly, I respect that and always have respected that. And secondly, if there was one thing that did upset me often during the referendum campaign was when I came up against people who lived in England who felt that what Scotland was doing represented in some way a rejection, that it showed some kind of antipathy or hostility towards England. That genuinely upset me because nothing could be further from what I believe in. You know, my grandmother was English and she was a big nationalist. She was an SNP supporter. My childhood wasn't full of politics. But I suppose she's one of the reasons why my nationalism has never really been about identity or driven by a belief that you've got to be pure bred Scots to support independence for Scotland because she came from just outside Sunderland in the north of England and yet had this kind of belief that Scotland should be an independent country. So I, you know, I detested that sense that somehow what we were arguing for was a rejection of England as a country or England as a people.

Presenter9:52

Let's hear your second piece of music, First Minister. What is it?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon9:55

This is Freedom Kamal Ye, which is a famous Scottish protest song, anti-imperialist song. This version of it was performed by Pomeza, a South African singer, at the opening ceremony of the Commonwealth Games, and this is one of my favourite versions of a beautiful song.

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Morrow we winds free and long Morno ships sailing in the blue below

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Broken family's in love with Harried With a kiss border and the brave name

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Black and white, the anti-leather bears, mark the fine bonus for their messes bell

Presenter10:48

That was Pomeza Machikesa and freedom come all ye. So, Nicolas Sturgeon, as I mentioned, your father, Robin, was an electrician. Your mother at the time they married, I think, was a dental nurse.

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And your mother

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They were very young when they were. Very young. Your mother was seventeen, your father twenty-one. W what are your

Speaker 210:59

Yeah.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon10:59

Very good.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon11:00

Yeah.

Presenter11:03

Very early memories of home life.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon11:06

My memories of home life are just of stability, security. My mum and dad were my world when I was wee. You know, if I look back now and think about what my mum and dad instilled in me, it's nothing short of remarkable in some ways because, as you say, they were really young when I was born. I guess their own life experiences at that time must have been fairly limited. Nobody in either of their families had ever gone to university. They probably hadn't come across that many people that had gone to university, and yet they managed to raise this wee girl who, from as far back as I can remember, had a belief that aspiring to go to university was something that I should take for granted. Was that explicit? Did your mum sort of sit on your knee and say, Nicola, you're a smart wee girl? I guess that's w what I kind of marvel about when I look back on it, because it was an unspoken look, you know, you can do what you want, don't let people tell you that because of your gender or your background or.

Presenter11:49

Of sitting on your knee and saying, Nicola, you're a smart wee girl.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon12:03

Your family, that you're not able to go on and achieve what it is your heart wants you to achieve. And I never

Presenter12:09

It was a peculiarly political time that you found yourself growing up in. You know, the 1980s was a time of, of course, Thatcher's government. People in Scotland were finding that Westminster in no way reflected the votes that they were putting in the ballot box. And it was the time of the poll tax being introduced first to Scotland, was the time of the miners' strike. There was Ravenscraig Steelworks being wound down and eventually closed. Did you find yourself?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon12:13

Growing up in

Presenter12:35

As a youngster in those early teenage years, connecting with politics as a reality that was impactful upon people's lives.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon12:41

Absolutely. I mean, for me, my political awakening, if I can be as grand as to call it that, was all about what was happening around me. It wasn't some romantic, patriotic, you know, vision of Scotland going back to what it had been 300 years previously. It was very much about a sense of hopelessness in the community I was growing up in. Did you see that first? Yeah, I did. I was surrounded. You know, I guess if you ask me the kind of feelings I remember from that time, I remember a feeling that I had, and all my friends had. If your dad back then was made redundant or lost his job, then there was a sense that that would be terminal, that he might never work again. People I went to school with, and you know, the school I went to, it wasn't commonplace to go on to further education or higher education. If you weren't doing that, there was a sense that you might end up without a job, without any real hope for the future. And that all created this sense of hopelessness, as it seemed to me back then, being inflicted by a government that most people in Scotland hadn't voted for and would never have voted for. And that's what provoked me into politics and sparked the political interest that.

Presenter13:03

Yeah, it is.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon13:51

Has stayed with me ever since?

Presenter13:52

Tell me about your third piece of music.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon13:54

Oh, my third piece of music is Duran Duran. I am, notwithstanding all of this political chat, just an 80s girl at heart. So Duran Duran, Wham, all of these groups were the soundtrack to my teenage years. This is actually a later Duran Duran song, Ordinary World, which I think if I had to choose out of many classic Duran Duran tracks, this would be my all-time favourite.

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What has happened to it all? Crazy summer say

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Where is the light that I recognize?

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But I won't grab for yesterday

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And I won't.

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There's a not in every word. Somehow I have to find

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I miss I try to make my way to the

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That was Durin Durin and Ordinary World, and I should tell the world that just as we were coming to the end of that, First Minister Nicholas Sturgeon said, I got a tweet from Simon Le Bon a few months ago.

Presenter15:01

Tell tell me more about that, First Minister.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon15:04

Yeah.

Presenter15:04

But

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon15:04

He'd read somewhere that I was a Jandrand fan, I think I'd been talking in an interview about going to the Barrowlands, the famous Barrowlands in Glasgow, to see them. So he tweeted me something along the lines of I always thought you had good sense. But I I thought to myself, if I'd been able to go back in time and tell my 14-year-old self that one day Simon LeBon would get in touch with me, I think she'd have fainted.

Presenter15:26

Uh let's talk for a moment about Frosty's ice disco at the Magazine Centre. Well, you know what? There there are very few opportunities for me to raise this on Desert Island disc, so I may as well make the best of it. Uh the ice disco. So you would get what the crimpers out in the eyeliner and head down to Frosty's, would you?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon15:29

My consent.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon15:39

We are clearly of the same vintage, Kirsty, yes.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon15:43

It was kind of day glow yellow and and orange and sort of pink leg warmers and things that you would wear in those days. But yeah, the Magnum was probably the first of its kind in these big leisure centres in Irving where I grew up. But the Ice Rink had a Saturday night disco called Frosties where we just used to skate round and round and round and round to the sound of wham and Jaran Duran and Culture Club and all sorts of delights like that. So this you'd be what, about 14? 14, 15, yeah. There was a slight overlap I think between Frosties and my political awakening. And

Presenter16:06

Have you ever fought?

Presenter16:12

But you know, all teenagers, it it might be fair to say, like like a tribe, you know, we decide, and that might be we define ourselves through the music we we like or the clothes that we might wear as teenagers.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon16:17

Might

Presenter16:22

Why was politics your tribe? What was it about that?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon16:25

I was fascinated by it. I was fascinated long before I joined the SNP I was fascinated in the world around me. Current affairs really interested me. And not just Scottish current affairs. I was interested in what was happening in South Africa and Palestine and other parts of the world. I had a modern studies teacher who really encouraged that and who taught me to test and challenge my own opinions, which was probably one of the most valuable things that he did for me.

Presenter16:51

What about I mean, the great looming figure of her time then, of course, was Margaret Thatcher. I have to tell listeners that you're sitting here today in a beautiful royal blue, exquisitely cut suit that I've got.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon17:01

Probably shouldn't tell any I I I can't believe I'm about to tell uh the the listening public this'cause uh no doubt I'll get slated for it, but I'm I'm also reading uh the Charles Moore biography of Mrs. Thatcher at the moment. I'm interested in the whole kind of art and science of decision making.

Presenter17:17

One of the things she did do, of course, was introduce the right to buy for council house tenants. As I understand it, your parents took advantage of that and bought their own council house.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon17:22

Yeah.

Presenter17:26

And as I also understand it, that is a right that you intend to withdraw from people now in Scotland. Do you not think that is rather pulling the ladder away from aspirational families who might want to do the same as your parents wanted to?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon17:35

Yeah, I mean I understand that argument, but we live in a very different time now. There's enormous pressure on social housing, affordable housing for people to rent. And when there is so much pressure on it and when we're having to, as we are, find money to build more social housing, it seems to me that in this particular time it's not right to then let that be sold off. But what I would also say is we do lots in other ways to help people into home ownership. So we've got help to buy schemes. So it's not about closing off the aspiration to home ownership, which is a good aspiration that I think it's right to support. It's just we do it in different ways. Let's have some more music, Nicola Sturgeon. Yes, oh. Well, this is uh the proclaimers to two guys I I know and fantastic guys letter from America, which probably was a soundtrack to my political awakening, but also mentions my hometown, which was always a big thing back then.

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When you go well you said back A letter from America Timbalu got the rail track

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From Miami to Canada, like your mom

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Basket no more, Lemberg no more.

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Metal number one.

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Perfect.

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Moise, batheton mois, lemour dun mois,

Presenter19:03

That was the proclaimer's end letter from America. Uh Sir Nicolas Sturgeon, Marie Black, the SNP MP, the youngest elected politician in Britain, aged just twenty. There are some parallels. You stood at twenty-one. 1992 general election, I think it was. During that election, you were the youngest candidate standing. There wasn't a chance of you winning it. You knew that, of course.

Speaker 219:16

And I think it

Speaker 219:21

Yeah.

Presenter19:23

You graduated then in nineteen ninety two. You got two one in law. You went on to practice law, was a uh at a a solicitor's in Stirling, where you did a matrimonial, you did criminal cases. What did you learn about people and life and the difficulties that people go through as as you were a young lawyer?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon19:39

I learned a lot both there and probably more so in the next legal job I did, which was in a law centre in Drum Chapel in Glasgow.

Presenter19:48

Which is a very underprivileged process.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon19:49

Absolutely. So, you know, I I learned very directly the kind of issues and problems and challenges people come up against in their everyday lives, and that probably more than anything equipped me for the job of being a member of Parliament.

Presenter20:07

As you sat there listening to people who were saying, Well, I mean, he's not getting to see my wins because such and such. You're thinking, I can't solve this. Totally.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon20:07

Have you sat there?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon20:11

Totally.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon20:13

Totally. And you know, I I feel that regularly to this day sometimes, you know, I

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon20:18

I'm First Minister of of Scotland, but I still will regularly feel overwhelmed by some of the things I'm I'm dealing with, and probably never more so than sitting in a constituency surgery with somebody at their wits' end because of a

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon20:31

you know, a benefits problem or a problem with dampness in their housing or you know a an abusive partner that's threatening to take away their kids, and knowing that you'll do everything you can to help them, but you might not actually be able to solve the problem. That's that's one of the most dispiriting parts of being a politician, and it was certainly true of being a lawyer all those years ago.

Presenter20:51

So where do you go with that when you have the overwhelm? Who do you discuss it with? Is it with your husband or is it?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon20:55

Yeah, I mean, principally it'll be with Peter. My husband, I mean, he bears the brunt of most of it. I'm quite hot headed, I'm quite impulsive. You know, it doesn't last very long, thankfully, but if I'm confronted with a big problem, I go, Oh my goodness, what am I going to do about it? where he's very calm and doesn't get flustered very easily and that is exactly what I need in my my life, particularly just now.

Presenter21:18

So Peter is Peter Murrill, who is the chief executive of the SNP. Why did you fall for him?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon21:20

Exactly.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon21:22

And we we knew each other long before we we ended up getting together. We worked together uh particularly closely in a campaign and and then when the campaign ended and there was no real reason for us to see each other every day the way we had done for the last three months, I suddenly realised I wanted to see him every day and luckily he felt the same.

Presenter21:41

You don't have children, and that has been used by some of your political opponents as an implicit criticism. Um what do you make of that?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon21:50

Um I

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon21:52

That can be hurtful, if I'm being brutally honest about it, because people make assumptions.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon21:58

about why we don't have children. And frankly, people who make those assumptions know nothing of the reality of that and

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon22:07

The assumption that people sometimes not everybody but the assumption that that people sometimes make is that I have made a cold, calculated decision to put my career ahead of having a family and that's not true. It never has been true. Sometimes things happen in life, sometimes they don't. Don't get me wrong, I have no regrets and if I could turn the clock back 10, 20 years, I wouldn't want to fundamentally change the path that my life has taken. But it's just it's just the way in which people just assume that it's all part of this kind of cold, calculating, career-driven woman. And actually I think for most women that couldn't be further from the truth, even if they have got very successful in their careers and haven't had children. Do you and Peter have a rule that is there a no politics night at home? We try and actually it's not as hard as people might think it is because you know that will usually be a Friday night or a Saturday night when we're both exhausted and

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon23:04

You know, all we really want to do is sit in front of the television with a glass of wine and then fall asleep.

Presenter23:08

Yeah.

Presenter23:09

Right, time for some more music then, Nicholas Sturgeon. Tell me about this disc.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon23:12

Well, this is My Love Is Like a Red Red Rose, famous Robert Burns song, beautifully sung by Eddie Reader. But this is special to me partly because I love Robert Burns, but also because this is a song that was played just before Peter and I took our vows at our wedding.

Speaker 223:29

My love is like a red red rose.

Speaker 223:34

It's newly sprung in June.

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My heart is late.

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A melody

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It sweetly plays its tune

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Whose fair art thou, my bonny love?

Speaker 223:54

So deep in love am I And I will love thee still my dear

Presenter24:05

Eddie Reader singing Robert Burns My Love is Like a Red Red Rose. So, Nicolas Sturgeon, you stood for election, is this right, seven times unsuccessfully in the first part of the process. Before you won a seat, you became a member of the Scottish Parliament in nineteen ninety nine, following devolution, of course.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon24:13

Unsuccessfully.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon24:14

And it's in the

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon24:16

I try not to

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon24:18

So

Presenter24:23

You were Alex Salmon's deputy for ten years. I think your powers of endurance are remarkable.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon24:30

Yeah, I would wouldn't disagree with that for a second. You know, I I I'm a great believer actually that although I'm sure at the time uh it didn't feel like I know at the time it didn't feel like this, but all those defeats along the way actually were good for me because I think they they helped me build up resilience and learn what it was you needed to do to win. So I don't I don't regret

Presenter24:52

any of that. Nippy sweetie Nicola and the most dangerous woman in Britain are two of the epithets that have been hung around your neck. Anyone who saw you go hammer and tongs at George Galloway in the big, big debate the night before the Independence vote would be clear that

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon24:54

And

Presenter25:06

Well, would you say you're somebody who enjoys a good Barney?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon25:09

Oh, yeah, absolutely. There's no doubt about it. And I guess now that I'm First Minister and very conscious of the responsibilities I have as First Minister, not just to be a partisan politician, of course I am that, but to be more than that, to represent people regardless of their political views. I suppose I feel more of a responsibility now on occasion to hold that part of myself in check. I don't always find it easy. But yeah, I mean, I don't think you can be.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon25:34

a politician without having that ability and that desire to stand up and fight for what it is you believe in.

Presenter25:40

You voiced annoyance about the amount of commentary there's been over in recent times about your appearance and your style and how it's changed. And yet very recently you chose to appear in a seven page Red in Vogue magazine.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon25:48

He chose to appear in a seven-page spread in Vogue magazine.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon25:53

You know, I do I don't mind saying I struggle a little bit with this because on the one hand.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon25:59

I want politics to be accessible, but I am equally of the view that there is too much focus on what women wear, what their hair looks like. And that would be fine if it applied to men as well. So yeah, I'm under no illusions that sometimes I might appear to be and feel myself to be a wee bit conflicted and contradictory on that. Let's have some more music, Nicola Sturgeon. Tell me about your sixth. Oh, the wonderful voice of Kate Bush, Wuthering Heights, which is a fantastic song. I love Kate Bush and I love this song. But Wuthering Heights was also, when I was a teenager, one of my favourite books. So I used to play this incessantly while reading Emily Bronte.

Speaker 226:41

Are you the one?

Speaker 226:44

On it by now, cool it down.

Speaker 226:48

I'm a team, I'll be the buster.

Speaker 226:53

To love the world with bands

Speaker 226:58

Coming back to his side to push buttons Coming home to walking through, walking through, walking through my ISP

Presenter27:11

Kate Bush and Walthering Heights. So Nicolas Sturgeon, there was very recently a truly tragic state of affairs in Scotland. You will be more than familiar with the details, but I should maybe remind listeners there was a car crash, there was a reported crash, and there were deaths. Police Scotland is being scrutinised and criticised like never before. This single force, the shine has come off the idea. If that had happened...

Speaker 227:20

The leader was

Speaker 227:23

Yeah, was

Speaker 227:29

The size like no

Presenter27:35

In British politics, the Home Secretary would probably have had to resign. Has enough been done to acknowledge the state of affairs within Scottish policing right now?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon27:44

I should say that particular incident, which was appalling and tragic, and you know, my heart still every day goes out to the families of these two people. It's still under investigation, so I'm to some extent limited in what I can say about that. But whatever lessons have to be learned about the circumstances of that, there is an absolute determination that they will be learned. I believe the move to the single police force was the right thing to do, you know, at a time when money is as horrendously tight as it is just now, having eight chief constables in a country the size of Scotland, I don't think it's a good use of money. So I think that was right. I try not to be I'm sure I don't always succeed, but I try not to be defensive when things go wrong. You often can undo what's been done, but you can learn lessons and make sure that you minimise the chances of it happening again.

Presenter28:30

There is an acknowledgment among many people who have held office at the very highest level that it can be a very lonely place to be. What's your view on that?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon28:39

I absolutely agree with that, and I guess the most eye-opening thing about my experience of the last twelve months is just how true that old cliché is. I mean, I guess you've commented previously on the fact that I'd been Alex Salmon's deputy for ten years. I guess I went into the job thinking I'd been so close to it for so long that I knew all there was to know about it, and you quickly find out that that's not true, that nothing quite prepares you for that moment when you've got to take the first big decision. And I vividly remember that. I don't actually remember what the decision was, but I remember that feeling in my stomach when I realised that it was quite a difficult decision and I was having to take it, and the guy next door wasn't there anymore to pass it over to. And that was a revelation at that point. I think I've got and have developed over the years a kind of resilience and an inner strength and a sort of ability to stand up against the critics. And I found that while in the moment it can be difficult, it's certainly lonely. I, in a strange sort of way, also feel quite comfortable with decision making and I'm prepared to live with the consequences. So, you know, there's something in me that has managed to convince myself I've got what it takes to be a leader.

Presenter29:55

Let's have some more music, Nicola Sturgeon. It is time for your seventh. Well, the message is clear. Tell me about this.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon30:00

Sisters are doing it for themselves. Eurythmics and the wonderful Aretha Franklin. Gender issues matter a lot to me. I'm the first woman to hold the job as First Minister, so this is a song that speaks to the feminist in me.

Speaker 230:13

Now there was a sign

Speaker 230:17

Used to say

Speaker 230:21

Behind the

Speaker 230:23

To be a great woman.

Speaker 230:28

Right in the east, time has changed. I know that

Speaker 230:32

No longer true.

Speaker 230:35

So we're coming out of the kitchen, cause there's something we forgot to say to you.

Presenter30:49

That was the Eurythmic Senna Retha Franklin and Sisters are doing it for themselves. You are not then, by your own admission, a naturally gregarious person. Is there a sense in which, you know, before you go out there

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon31:01

Uh

Presenter31:01

As First Minister, you sort of have to

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon31:01

That's

Presenter31:03

Gird yourself and put put Nicola Sturgeon on, as it were.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon31:04

Let's

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon31:06

Well less so now. Um I think but in the early days of my career that was definitely definitely an uh an issue I think that I would I would sort of don a a pr the the persona of Nicola the politician and that's how I overcame the shyness. As I've got older that sort of divide between the real me and the the politician me has definitely disappeared. So what you see now is is the real me for better or worse.

Presenter31:29

Pin

Presenter31:31

I am about to cast you away, Nicola Stretchin, to this island. Now

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon31:33

Yeah.

Presenter31:35

You know, with without Twitter, without the advisers, without your husband, you've come across today and indeed at other times as a great pragmatist, but but maybe not very practical.

Speaker 231:38

Uh

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon31:38

Yeah Yeah.

Speaker 231:39

But yeah.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon31:39

Yeah.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon31:46

I'm not practical in the slightest. Luckily, Peter is. He's a great cook. So on the island, I'm thinking. Oh, I won't survive a week.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon31:54

Um that this what I take with me and everything, it's pretty academic'cause I won't survive for very long.

Presenter31:59

Let's then go to your final disc. Tell me about this.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon32:02

Well this is, you know, the ultimate upbeat, optimistic, motivational song. I absolutely love it. If I'm feeling down, if it's all getting on top of me, a blast of this cheers me up. Labby Sifra, something inside so strong.

Speaker 332:13

No matter cause there is something inside so strong.

Speaker 332:21

I know that I can make it

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon32:21

No, that

Speaker 232:21

Yeah.

Speaker 332:24

Oh, you're doing me wrong, so wrong. You thought that my pride was gone.

Speaker 332:30

Bond

Speaker 332:33

Something inside so strong

Speaker 332:38

Oh

Speaker 332:39

Something inside so strong

Presenter32:43

Lavi Sifre and Something Inside So Strong. It's time now, then, Nicolas Turgeon, for me to cast you away. I'm going to give you the books. I give everybody the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. What's the other book you're going to take to the island? I'm going to take the complete works of Jean Austen. And a luxury too, of course. What's your luxury going to be?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon33:00

I'm going to take a coffee machine because the one thing I cannot do without in the morning is my injection of caffeine.

Presenter33:05

Come on.

Presenter33:07

How do you like it? Do you like it strong?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon33:08

I like it strong.

Presenter33:09

Okay.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon33:09

A little bit of milk.

Presenter33:10

Okay. Do I get milk on the desert? Yes, I'll we'll give you that. We'll give you the full compliment for the perfect cup of coffee every morning, even a cup to put it in. And um finally, if I were to ask you to pick just one of the eight to save, which one would it be?

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon33:11

They get milk on the desert.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon33:13

We'll give you

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon33:16

Yeah.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon33:24

Or it would be My Love Is Like a Red Red Rose.

Presenter33:28

Nicolas Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, thank you very much for letting us hear your desert island discs.

Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon33:32

Thank you.

Presenter34:13

You've been listening to a download from the BBC.

Presenter34:16

You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website bbc.co.uk slash Radio4