Pamela Rose

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:36

My castaway this week is Pamela Rose. She was a bletchley girl, one of the women who spent the war years working in total secrecy, painstakingly indexing snippets of information that would prove vital to beating the Nazis, a clandestine role that's recently made its way from the historical shadows of Britain's wartime past to the megawatt glare of the silver screen in movies like Enigma and the Imitation Game.

Presenter1:01

But my guest to day has no truck with the glamorising of her wartime work. The truth is, she says, it was often boring, and something of a disappointment to a young woman who herself had early ambitions to be an actress. A half hearted debutante, she abandoned the season to spend time in Paris and Munich.

Presenter1:18

Going on to drama school in London later.

Presenter1:21

Yet she gave up dreams of her name in lights on Shaftesbury Avenue for the indexing section of Hut Four.

Presenter1:27

turning down her first chance to appear in the West End and opting instead for the undercover job at Bletchley.

Presenter1:33

She would finally achieve her dream nearly sixty years later, making her West End acting debut at the age of eighty three.

Presenter1:42

She says I think when you're as old as I am you feel as if you're walking alongside yourself, watching yourself with great interest, wondering what you're going to do next. And so Pamela Rose at ninety seven now. I wonder what's on your to do list. Desert Island is

Presenter1:59

Good. I'm glad you've made the time. Many of us have seen the movies Enigma and The Imitation Game, those films about Bletchley Park.

Pamela Rose2:06

Yeah.

Pamela Rose2:08

Yeah.

Presenter2:09

How realistic of

Pamela Rose2:10

What picture do they paint?

Pamela Rose2:11

Myself I haven't seen them, because I'm very blind and I can't see in the cinema very well, and I'm waiting for the D V D to come out, and I shall watch it on that. And I will say all my friends who weren't at Bletchley think that the Invitation game is wonderful, and all my friends who were think it's rubbish.

Pamela Rose2:32

I suppose it's a mixture of

Presenter2:33

We are going to talk, I hope, in some detail later about how you uh ended up at Bletchley Park and about the type of work you did there. None of it was public knowledge, I think, until the nineteen seventies. What was it like when suddenly the truth came to light? Whether

Pamela Rose2:51

My memory of the nineteen seventies is that people weren't all that interested. They they seemed to be m much more interested now. Bletcher seemed quite a long way away. The fact that we'd broken the codes was wonderful, and perhaps saved lives was wonderful, but it was part of history, and we were all getting on with our lives and doing other things.

Presenter3:10

At that notion of it being part of history then, what did the war effort mean to you there and then, as a young woman?

Pamela Rose3:15

Uh

Pamela Rose3:16

Well, I suppose underneath most of us felt that we really were fighting for our survival and for the survival of the things that we believed in.

Pamela Rose3:27

But I think that f everybody seemed so friendly. I suppose it's like a m a match, really. I've never been a great sports watcher, but

Pamela Rose3:36

We were a team. The whole country was a team.

Presenter3:39

Pamela, let me ask you then for your first disc of the morning. What are we going to hear? And and

Pamela Rose3:43

Why have you chosen this? Well, my first disc is a duet from Mozart's Don Giovanni, and goes right back to my parents. My father was an opera singer before the war, and my mother had aspirations to be one.

Pamela Rose3:58

My parents used to have once a month what they called a PWE, a pleasant Wednesday evening.

Pamela Rose4:04

And they would ask about fifty friends who would sit on little gold chairs and they'd have food either before or afterwards. And then they would perform. And uh their m many of their musical friends would perform too and they'd have little concerts once a month. And the thing I remember my parents singing more than anything is this duet from Don Giovanni and I love to hear them singing it.

Speaker 44:29

But he died on my

Speaker 44:32

Oh hey, one more hey happy ride he sing.

Speaker 14:43

Uh

Speaker 14:52

And what's the

Speaker 44:59

And the uh

Speaker 45:01

Um

Speaker 45:10

Come your breakthrough, restore I will be happy in your temple. We are

Speaker 45:24

Heaven and well, I wish to heaven and well.

Presenter5:32

L'Accidarem Lamano from Act I of Mozart's Don Giovanni, sung there by Barbara Bonney and Hawkin Harkourt, played by the Drottingham Court Theatre Orchestra and Chorus, conducted by Arnold Oostman. And you chose that, Pamela Rose, because you said it was often sung by your parents during what they named their PWEs, their pleasant Wednesday evenings. Oh, that we should all have PWE's in our life. You were born then in 1917. Your parents were Dolly and Thornley.

Speaker 15:50

That's it.

Speaker 15:54

Yeah.

Presenter5:59

The First World War had been going on for three years when your father uh had been at the front, but but he was injured.

Pamela Rose6:06

Yes, my mother had a direct line to God.

Pamela Rose6:10

She always made that quite clear, and she was very specific in the things she asked for. And she asked for my father to be wounded in the left leg.

Speaker 16:15

Plink.

Pamela Rose6:19

Because she said if he was wounded in the left leg he would be get what they call a blighty and would come home, and otherwise he'd be killed.

Pamela Rose6:27

and sure enough he was wounded in the left leg.

Pamela Rose6:30

You were sent to boarding school at the age of eight. Tell me about that. My brother had gone to boarding school.

Pamela Rose6:35

And I was left with a nanny.

Pamela Rose6:39

whom I love dearly.

Pamela Rose6:41

I was sent off to a little sort of dame school at Broadstairs. And you liked it? I loved it, yes, because I had two things which I loved. One was elocution lessons with an elderly retired actress.

Pamela Rose6:54

But we did have a splendid time together doing Victorian ballads.

Pamela Rose6:59

And I also was allowed to ride there, and we had a wonderful riding master.

Pamela Rose7:04

who had been some sort of a cowboy, and instead of having very posh riding lessons which we had at my next school.

Pamela Rose7:12

We were allowed to sort of try and stand up in the saddle and crack a whip and all sorts of things and and go over jumps standing up and do really quite exciting things in a small field behind the school. Much more fun.

Presenter7:24

But when you had those early elocution lessons with the retired actress, did that immediately strike a chord with you? I mean, you clearly still have a very beautiful, so quite sonorous voice, really.

Pamela Rose7:34

I wanted to be an actress and that's why they arranged for the lessons for me. You already did at that age, did you? Yes, I I wanted to be an actress from from the start, from when I first remembered it. We did quite a lot of acting at home. We quite often played charards. It's

Presenter7:48

Time for some more of your discs, uh, Pamela Rose. Your second of the day. Tell me what we're going to hear now.

Pamela Rose7:54

We're going to hear Yvert Guilbert now, and I don't suppose many people listening have even heard of Yvert Guilbert, but she was a sort of forerunner of Elite Pieff, and when I was sent to France to learn French after school, the uh mother of the family that I went to felt ve very strongly for me that I wanted to go on the stage. She signed me up with this lady who was giving a course of cabaret lessons really, and she was one of the first singers of the Moulin Rouge.

Pamela Rose8:25

She is rumoured to be the mistress of Edward the Seventh perhaps I should say a mistress of Edward the Seventh.

Pamela Rose8:31

and she also taught me French. She was extremely nice to me and she had these wonderful songs. I've chosen the Voyage to Bethlehem because I also find it very touching and it makes me think of her more than all the others.

Speaker 48:55

Ilene de Vino Font, Sonny au Bois and Ilene de Vino Font, Sonny au boir is an es souvois. The people eat cat wandino, and have it auxiliary. Ilene petitofo, jou au boir son es souvau ilene divinau font, soni au boir.

Presenter9:24

The Voyage to Bethlehem sung there by Yvette Guilbert, one time star of the Moulin Rouge, and also your French teacher in the time that you spent in Paris. That was recorded in nineteen thirty three. So this time that you spent in Paris, Pamela Rose, it was either that or learning to type here in London, was it?

Pamela Rose9:39

But that's it really. I mean, also my parents did want me to learn languages. I already had.

Pamela Rose9:46

Done quite well in French at school and uh How many languages do you speak?

Pamela Rose9:50

Well, I speak French and German quite adequately well, and uh a bit of Italian.

Pamela Rose9:57

And a very little bit of Spanish at all. I think I went to France in 1935 and Munich in 36.

Presenter10:03

This is at a time then, if you were in Munich in 36, when it was, I mean, it was the capital of the movement, the Nazi movement at that time.

Pamela Rose10:06

Yeah.

Pamela Rose10:09

The Nazi movement. And it's most extraordinary. My mother had an aunt by marriage, and they took a few boys, and they didn't want to take me,'cause I was a girl, and she said it would be too much responsibility. So I went to a friend of hers opposite, called Griffin Malotti.

Pamela Rose10:27

And I stayed there for three months and learnt, I suppose, quite good German. I was very well aware.

Pamela Rose10:34

of Hitler, but not of quite our original Awfully was.

Presenter10:37

Can I just try to have you describe a little the atmosphere in Munich at that time?

Pamela Rose10:44

Well, it's rather difficult. If I'd been living with a proper German family who didn't take other students, I should have seen more of it. But these were people who expressly took English and I suppose American students. And I think the

Pamela Rose11:01

Atmosphere was really I wasn't sensitive enough to realise what a lot must have been going down underneath. I didn't much like the idea of the Hitler Jugend.

Pamela Rose11:11

It didn't seem to me terribly warlike, because I had no idea what warlike was. And I didn't read the newspapers much. And I mean, one is very, very

Pamela Rose11:22

Self-centred, I think, at that age very often. I wanted to get back more than anything and get on to the stage.

Pamela Rose11:29

I can remember even when I was rehearsing.

Pamela Rose11:32

The very first professional play I was in.

Pamela Rose11:35

It was at the time of Munich.

Pamela Rose11:38

And I wasn't praying.

Pamela Rose11:40

You know, let there be no war for any other reason except that I wanted to open and play the part which I got was rather a nice one. And

Pamela Rose11:49

I'm sorry to say I'm deeply ashamed now, but I'm sorry to say I don't think I was very rarely political at all or aware of the ghastly things that were going on all around. I was just like I suppose many young people

Pamela Rose12:04

Living my own life.

Presenter12:05

I'm glad you said that because I think that is to be young is to be preoccupied with yourself.

Pamela Rose12:08

To be young, it's to be

Presenter12:11

Yes.

Presenter12:12

Let's have some more of your discs, Pamela Rose. Tell me about this next thing that we're going to hear now. Not a piece of music, in fact. Just tell us why you've chosen this.

Pamela Rose12:20

Oh uh well, the best part I think I had all the time I was on the stage, both before and after my marriage. It was the Playboy of the Western World, and that wonderful actor, Cyril Kuzak, was going to play the Playboy.

Pamela Rose12:37

And I put in for the part of Peggy Mike and uh got it, and so I played opposite Cyril.

Speaker 412:37

And

Pamela Rose12:45

And although we were never

Pamela Rose12:47

Recorded

Pamela Rose12:48

I would love to hear Cyril's voice saying some of those marvellous speeches, because it is one of the really important moments of my life as far as the theatre was concerned.

Speaker 112:59

Ah let you wait to hear me talking till we're astrayin' heiress when Good Friday's by, drinking a sup from a well, and makin' mighty kisses with our wetted mouths, or gaming in a gap of sunshine, with yourself stretched back onto your necklace and the flowers of the earth.

Speaker 413:18

I'd be nice, so is it?

Speaker 113:20

Oh, if I might bishop senior that time

Speaker 113:23

They'd be the like of the holy prophets, I'm thinking, to be strayin' the bars o' paradise, to lay eyes on the Lady Helena Thry, and she abroad, pacing back and forward with a nosegay in her golden shawl.

Speaker 413:36

And what is it I have, Christy Man?

Speaker 413:39

Make me fit an entertainment for the like of you, that has such poet's talking, and such bravery of heart.

Speaker 113:46

Isn't there the light of seven heavens in your heart alone? The way you'll be an angel's lamp to me from this out, and I abroad in the darkness, spearin' salmons in the owen or the carrow more.

Speaker 413:56

If I was your wife I'd be along with ye those nights.

Presenter13:59

That was an extract from Act Three of the John Millington Sing play, The Playboy of the Western World, performed there by Siddle Cuzak and Siobhan McKenna.

Presenter14:08

So you went on to study drama then, a very happy moment uh for you, Pamela Rose, at the Weber Douglas School. And then in the early forties you were in something called ENSA, which was the entertainment's national troupe.

Pamela Rose14:17

It's the entertainment's national true.

Presenter14:19

Entertain the truth.

Pamela Rose14:20

And you all had to do that. You could stay on the stage, you had to be in work.

Pamela Rose14:24

And everybody had to do so much else.

Presenter14:27

And at one point you were in Birmingham, and that was during the Blitz. What do you remember of that?

Pamela Rose14:29

Yeah.

Pamela Rose14:31

Uh

Presenter14:32

Yeah.

Pamela Rose14:32

Oh, I remember the blitz very clearly.

Pamela Rose14:34

Just lots of bang, isn't.

Pamela Rose14:36

Red things and burning and smoke.

Pamela Rose14:39

Were you afraid?

Pamela Rose14:41

Funny enough, no.

Pamela Rose14:43

It seems so exciting. I mean, when something was very near and everything shook.

Pamela Rose14:47

What that ooh, that was near. Perhaps we were all acting to one another. Perhaps we were very deep down. I should have been afraid if I had been alone. But I never was. I was with always g a group of actors.

Presenter14:58

And did the show go on every night, or did you suspend performances?

Presenter15:02

Uh

Pamela Rose15:02

I don't think we ever suspended a performance, no.

Presenter15:05

And then that there came a moment, I believe, when it was your godmother, I think, that suggested that there was a place that needs girls like you. What did she mean, and how did she know about Bletchley?

Pamela Rose15:16

Well, one of her sons was connected with it. I suppose, to be honest, she meant girls like you, girls about whose families we know something. We know now, after all those spy scants and one thing, that good family doesn't mean you're going to be loyal to your country necessarily. But the idea was at that time that if they'd picked because they had to pick a great many girls if they could find girls of good family who had adequate languages to cope with the signals.

Pamela Rose15:47

They would be very useful at wretchedly and I suppose we were.

Presenter15:50

And there weren't that many people speaking German in Britain to the standard that you could at that time.

Pamela Rose15:57

all over there were, but they had to also, they thought, knowabutters.

Pamela Rose16:02

and about our provenance.

Pamela Rose16:04

I mean, they may have been wrong, but on the whole, I think

Pamela Rose16:07

Nobody ever did find out about Bletchley,'cause surely they'd have bombed us otherwise.

Presenter16:11

You sent off your application then, and at the same time another letter, an important letter, arrived from your agent. Tell me about that.

Pamela Rose16:19

I was offered an understudy and a small part in a play called Watch on the Rhine, a very popular play in the West End, and would have been a very good thing. So when I had my interview, I was interviewed by a Don.

Pamela Rose16:33

called Frank Birch, who was head of Naval Section Intelligence, and um I knew he knew about the theatre, he was very keen on it, so I said to him at the end of the interview,

Pamela Rose16:43

He said, Well, we'd like you.

Pamela Rose16:45

And I said, Well, now I've got a a real problem, because I've just been offered my first West End part, and I'd quite like to do that too. What would you do? And he said to me, Well, the stage could wait and the war can't. So I went to Pletchley.

Presenter17:02

Tell me about your next piece then, Pamela Rose. What are we going to hear now? This is your fourth.

Pamela Rose17:05

is uh to me sort of resonant with all my youth before the war dancing just being young and they were still playing it a year or two later when I met my husband at Bletchley so I should like that.

Speaker 417:27

Night and day you are the ones who will

Speaker 417:33

Only you beneath the moon and under the sun.

Speaker 417:40

Whether near to me or far

Speaker 117:40

Well

Speaker 417:43

It's no matter, darlings, where you are, I think of you.

Speaker 417:49

Not um

Presenter17:53

Co Porter's Night and Day, sung there by Fred Estera, should tell listeners, Pamela Rose, that throughout that you had the most beatific smile on your face. You were right back in the moment. Does it seem like only a moment ago?

Pamela Rose18:05

Sometimes it seems like only a moment ago, and sometimes it seems like

Pamela Rose18:10

Ages ago so long my life seems to me to have been very long, I must say.

Presenter18:14

Well, ninety seven, it is quite long.

Presenter18:18

Um a young girl then, with this obviously a sense of drama and creative notions, you you know, a life on the stage was what you were interested in. You were given the job at Bletchley and they uh would have asked you to sign the Official Secrets Act. And I'm wondering, given that, you know, you liked

Speaker 118:25

Stay.

Speaker 118:30

Yeah.

Pamela Rose18:30

Check.

Presenter18:33

Drama, and you have imagination. What were your expectations of your job?

Pamela Rose18:37

I fully expected that I might be dropped over France or something. It was a very glorified idea of my languages,'cause they weren't nearly good enough for that. But I thought it might be going to be very exciting, and I must say it wasn't when I first got there.

Presenter18:50

Tell me about the pervading atmosphere in the indexing section of Hut Four.

Pamela Rose18:54

We had a lot of fun.

Pamela Rose18:55

But we were very serious too. I went there as a so called linguist.

Pamela Rose19:01

And I was moved to temporary senior administrative officer. So you were promoted? I did go to meetings and things like that with other.

Pamela Rose19:08

Heads of section.

Pamela Rose19:10

But um I had also to arrange for people like the Baroness Trumpington, for instance, who wants a

Pamela Rose19:17

My younger girls not to keep going on leave when they wanted to, so that they could see their boyfriends.

Presenter19:24

Yes, she was Jean Campbell Harris, just like Jean Campbell. And of course you say Baroness Trumpington, she of the infamous two-fingered salute in the House of Lords, she said of her.

Pamela Rose19:26

Just like you gave Council Howard.

Pamela Rose19:33

She said it was just as naughty then as she is now.

Presenter19:35

Oh, good. I'm glad you brought that up, because she has said of her days at Bletchley, I often behaved very badly indeed. What did she get up to?

Pamela Rose19:43

One night, I remember, we put her in a laundry basket and gave her a push.

Pamela Rose19:50

She careered off down a passage and ended up in a naval commander's office. And he wasn't terribly pleased, I must say.

Presenter19:57

Come on.

Presenter19:58

And did you behave badly? I mean, were you sort of uh dashing off to see boyfriends here?

Pamela Rose20:06

Glorious Dare when I met Jim Rose.

Pamela Rose20:09

Then he was a plecher, too.

Pamela Rose20:11

And so we had our fun where we were, really.

Presenter20:13

And the

Pamela Rose20:13

Uh

Presenter20:13

This day-to-day role then of actually you know, we mentioned earlier the index cards and the linguist skills. What what were you actually doing?

Pamela Rose20:15

You know we

Pamela Rose20:21

What happened was the the codes were broken, and then they were sent to something called a Z room. This happened in the naval section, in the air section and in the army section, but all separately. The codes are broken. They were

Pamela Rose20:35

rather like text messages really, and they were sent to a room where they were put into proper German. Then they came to us, and we had to because there were no computers, of course, we had to make a note of everything and importance in the signal.

Pamela Rose20:49

And index it so the people working on intelligence could come and get all the.

Pamela Rose20:54

say it's a ship like the Scharlhost, it would have an index card. Then every move it made that was mentioned in signals would be on that card and cross referenced with uh the ports it was at and any other information we had about it, really. So it was a very large index.

Presenter21:12

And what of the famed cryptanalyst Alan Turing et al., his his highfalutin team? Did you ever meet Alan Turing? Were you aware?

Pamela Rose21:18

I met him once at breakfast'cause he was having breakfast with Jim. I mean, he just seemed like a perfectly nice ordinary person.

Presenter21:21

Yeah.

Presenter21:25

And there were no rumours of what these very big-brained people were working on at the time.

Pamela Rose21:30

Yeah.

Pamela Rose21:31

I think to say that none of us had any idea of what we were doing is not true. We did have.

Presenter21:36

Tell us, Pamela Rose, about your next piece of music. This is your fifth disc of the morning.

Pamela Rose21:41

First of all, I love Kathleen Ferrier's voice. And secondly, Benjamin Britton, who was quite young then, also loved her voice, and wrote this opera for her. And Jim and I we were married in'forty six,' and we went to it that summer, and it was the first thing we went to together.

Pamela Rose21:59

And it was wonderfully exciting. We had a walking tour on the Downs first with our evening dress in rucksacks and then took a taxi.

Pamela Rose22:09

Tick Dynvaun, and it was very grand.

Pamela Rose22:12

And just very exciting to be there.

Speaker 422:18

Well all the dreams

Speaker 422:21

Then awakening would be less funny.

Speaker 122:21

An awakening would be learned

Speaker 422:27

Then you slept well.

Speaker 422:31

I'm I'm nearly undone.

Speaker 422:51

What a lovely day.

Speaker 422:55

And I wonder who

Speaker 422:59

Holy fuck.

Speaker 423:03

You have arranged them pretty much, but we have left his lordship's favourite flowers for you to do.

Presenter23:13

Hush, she comes from Benjamin Britton's Rape of Lucretia, sung by Kathleen Ferrier with Anna Polak and Margaret Ritchie, accompanied by the English Opera Group Orchestra conducted by Reginald Goodall, and that was recorded in 1946 and you specifically chose that, Pamela Rose, because of the memories you have of you and your new husband walking across the Sussex Downs with your your evening dress in your backpack before you headed to Kleinbourne.

Speaker 123:34

Before you

Presenter23:37

Um

Presenter23:37

The fiercely good-looking wing commander Jim Rose then, when did you you met him at Bletchley? I met him at Bletchley. Yes, can you remember the first time you met?

Pamela Rose23:42

I'm messing with

Pamela Rose23:45

Yes, I can. It was at a dance, and funnily enough, Jean Campbell Harris comes into it again, because we had continual uh hops in what I think you would call toutour grammar phone.

Pamela Rose23:56

In a sort of drill hall.

Pamela Rose23:58

where everything took place. There was one I didn't really want to go to, and Jean said, Oh, do come, I don't want to go alone so I said, All right. And Jim asked me to dance. And I'd seen Jim from afar in the canteen and places like that, and thought he'd looked rather attractive.

Pamela Rose24:14

But he had a great reputation for taking care of sort of wall flowers and people he was sorry for. So immediately he asked me to dance, and I thought, I wonder what's wrong with me?

Pamela Rose24:26

But in fact, uh apparently not much.

Presenter24:29

There was one small but significant fly in the ointment, because he, like a lot of people, had had rushed into um a marriage in the in nineteen thirty nine, I think, so he was in the middle of a divorce when you met him.

Pamela Rose24:40

Yes, he was in the middle of divorce.

Presenter24:41

And getting divorced in those days was a damn sight trickier than it is now.

Pamela Rose24:44

It was terrible because you if you were a gentleman, you had to take the blame.

Pamela Rose24:50

And Jim had to go down to Brighton.

Pamela Rose24:53

With a lady whom he paid.

Pamela Rose24:55

and apparently played cards all night, and then when the uh chambermaid came with the breakfast in the morning

Pamela Rose25:03

She had been, I suppose, paid a fiver or something, and um she was then the witness. She'd seen you in bed when she brought the breakfast. But you had to have

Pamela Rose25:13

Definite testimony that you were in bed with somebody else.

Presenter25:16

As proof of adultery, which they name.

Pamela Rose25:18

Western infrastructure, absolutely, yes. Um let's have some more music, Pamela Ruse. We went to Zurich after the war. They were looking for somebody to start up an international press institute. And the idea was to make countries love one another by their editors meeting and getting to understand one another. And in fact, we were in Zurich for ten years.

Pamela Rose25:38

And my one joy while we were in Zurich really, apart from the fact we had two children, they were great fun and they liked Zurich.

Pamela Rose25:45

I was a little bit bored, I have to say, but my great friend there was really a friend of my father's called Edwin Fisher.

Speaker 125:49

It was really

Pamela Rose25:52

who was a wonderful pianist and musician.

Pamela Rose25:54

And one day he came to see us.

Pamela Rose25:57

And he was going to play.

Pamela Rose25:59

This Beethoven sonata, he was playing at a concert that night.

Pamela Rose26:03

And he says it's really dedicated.

Pamela Rose26:06

To the Griffin Brown.

Pamela Rose26:08

But I'm going to dedicate it to Pamela.

Pamela Rose26:11

So always afterwards, it's been my sonata.

Pamela Rose26:13

And I love it very much.

Presenter27:16

That was part of Beethoven's Sonata No. 10 in G major, played by another friend of yours, Dennis Matthews, there, Pamela Rose.

Presenter27:22

When you did come back to London, as you say, you'd been in Zurich, and your husband had worked before that as literary editor of The Observer, and then he had set up. and co-founded indeed in nineteen sixty eight the Runnymead Trust.

Pamela Rose27:33

Yes.

Presenter27:34

Throughout all of this, did you have a sense of, aside from having your children and being a mother, of feeling slightly

Pamela Rose27:39

A feeling

Presenter27:40

Sort of champing at the bit that there was something else.

Pamela Rose27:42

In Zurich, yes. Yes. In Zurich, because Zurich was also in those days very old fashioned and very sort of for instance, when we brought our furniture over, although my husband was extremely busy,

Presenter27:43

Yeah.

Pamela Rose27:55

He had to go down to the border and sign for them, because a woman couldn't sign for them. And a lot of a lot of the cantons hadn't got the vote in those days. Indeed. So it was really like being in a

Pamela Rose28:07

Nineteenth century play

Presenter28:09

Well, so talking of plays, w were you not indeed yourself tempted just to get back into the theatre and

Pamela Rose28:14

Well, I'd promised no, because I promised Jim I wouldn't, when he said

Pamela Rose28:19

Shall we get married? He said, You know, I don't think it would work if you went back to the stage.

Pamela Rose28:24

Remember these were quite old fashioned days,'cause he said you'd always be going out till I'm coming in and of course it's true. And I've got a great many friends who did stay on the stage, and uh most of them

Pamela Rose28:36

Didn't stay with the same person all that long.

Pamela Rose28:41

And so I suppose, since I never wanted to be with anyone else really once I'd met him, I did the right thing. But I didn't go back to stage after he died.

Presenter28:49

He died in 1999 then.

Pamela Rose28:51

Yeah.

Presenter28:52

Yes, y you went back, as I said in the introduction earlier this morning, you you went on to the West End stage and you were aged.

Pamela Rose28:55

Wouldn't

Presenter28:59

Eighty three.

Pamela Rose29:02

Well, how did it come about that you were? Well, I had an old friend called Sam Beasley, and when Jim died.

Pamela Rose29:08

He said to me, after a month or two

Pamela Rose29:12

You know, you can't sit on your bottom for the rest of your life. You'd better

Pamela Rose29:15

Come back to the Actor Center.

Pamela Rose29:18

and uh do some tasses and get back on the stage, which he had done.

Pamela Rose29:23

So I went to the Actors' Centre, and they very kindly took me, and I did some classes which I thoroughly enjoyed.

Pamela Rose29:29

And uh

Pamela Rose29:31

Got myself an agent.

Pamela Rose29:33

And she suddenly rang up one day, just before Christmas, I remember, and said, Um, I think I've got a job for you. Go down to the Haymarket, and they're putting on um

Pamela Rose29:44

Lady Windermill's fan and was given the part of Lady Jedborough and also understudied Googie Withers.

Presenter29:44

Ready

Pamela Rose29:53

And it was quite a distinguished production it had.

Pamela Rose29:56

Vanessa Redgrave and Jack Davenport.

Pamela Rose29:59

It was quite alarming, but of course if there's one thing

Pamela Rose30:02

That doesn't drive out, but subdues grief.

Pamela Rose30:06

It's fear.

Pamela Rose30:07

And I was pretty afraid, really, to start with.

Pamela Rose30:10

But I had a lovely time.

Presenter30:12

find at the age of eighty three

Presenter30:15

Not just learning your own part, but under studying one of the main parts. I mean, w was it easy for you to learn the lines?

Pamela Rose30:21

Well, uh I really did study very hard. I mean, all over Christmas I was learning not my part, but Googie's part. Luckily, because on the third night

Pamela Rose30:31

Suddenly I heard her say

Pamela Rose30:34

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm ill, I can't go on.

Pamela Rose30:37

And she walked off.

Pamela Rose30:38

And the stage manager looked down at me, rather superciliously, I thought, and said, Can you go on?

Pamela Rose30:44

So I said yes.

Presenter30:47

And on I went.

Presenter30:48

Did it have cause to make you think, being back on the stage after sixty years, and given that you'd fallen in love with Jim and had a very, very happy marriage for all those years,

Presenter30:58

Gosh, what I gave up!

Pamela Rose31:01

No.

Pamela Rose31:02

Not really. I'm not a a regretter really much.

Pamela Rose31:05

You can't have everything.

Pamela Rose31:07

And I think I've had more than my share, really.

Presenter31:10

It's time for your seventh piece of music, then Pamela. Tell me what we're going to hear now.

Pamela Rose31:16

Matan?

Pamela Rose31:17

From Polgy and Bess.

Pamela Rose31:19

By Gershwin.

Pamela Rose31:21

To me it springs like a flower out of darkness, and that's what I love about it.

Speaker 431:35

All Christmas.

Speaker 431:44

I should

Speaker 432:03

I want to

Speaker 432:20

Oh shit,

Presenter32:31

Summer time, from Gershwin's Porgy and Bess, sung by Cynthia Heyman, the music was played by the London Philharmonic Orchestra with the Glinebourne Chorus, conducted by Sir Simon Rattle.

Presenter32:41

You said earlier to me, Pamela Rose, you can't have everything and I've had more than most. I wonder given your experiences, given all the decades that you've lived, what what do you think the ingredients are for living a a long and fulfilled life?

Pamela Rose32:56

Well, luck's the greatest, I suppose. I think I've got an optimistic temperament, and I'm lucky in that. I inherited that from my parents, I think.

Pamela Rose33:05

And uh a good partner's the greatest thing of all. Family is a wonderful thing.

Pamela Rose33:11

A belief of some sort is great. I don't mean necessarily belonging to a a strict religion.

Pamela Rose33:17

But I think

Pamela Rose33:19

Believing in the human spirit.

Pamela Rose33:21

In the fact there is something there that's worth.

Pamela Rose33:24

preserving and being.

Presenter33:26

I I've today, um, because it's Desert Island Discs, I've been asking you to look back at your life and to tell me about all those decades and years ago and your time at Bletchley.

Presenter33:36

I'm wondering though if you spend much time talking to your own children and grandchildren about the war.

Pamela Rose33:40

About the war.

Pamela Rose33:48

At a taxi driver the other day.

Pamela Rose33:50

who was teaching his daughters about the war.

Pamela Rose33:53

And when I told him that I'd been at Bletchley in the war,

Pamela Rose33:57

He said, Can I take your photograph?

Pamela Rose34:00

He was so thrilled to find somebody who'd been at Bletchley.

Presenter34:03

Now, you know, given that this is Desert Island Discs, I'm going to I'm cruelly going to cast you away.

Pamela Rose34:05

Yeah, it's

Presenter34:08

I'm wondering if there's anything about life on your own on this desert island that you'll actually look forward to.

Pamela Rose34:14

Not really. No. I don't mind being alone. I like people very much. I think if I can have my eyes back, which I'm sure I can, I shall enjoy reading.

Pamela Rose34:24

So tell me then about your final piece I've chosen.

Pamela Rose34:29

The uh Schubert Piano Snarter.

Pamela Rose34:32

In P minor

Pamela Rose34:35

Because it was the thing that was in Jim's C D player when he came back from hospital. He took a little C D player with him.

Pamela Rose34:44

And also we had it played by a friend at his memorial service. And it would remind me, first of all, of Jim.

Pamela Rose34:53

It's a little slow and it's a little sad, and I think I'd feel rather n nostalgic on that island.

Pamela Rose34:59

I'd like to have him with me.

Presenter36:06

That was part of the second movement of Schubert's piano sonata in B flat major, played by Alfred Brendel.

Presenter36:11

So, Pamela Rose, I'm going to give you the books now. As you mentioned, you will take to this island the complete works of Shakespeare.

Presenter36:18

And the Bible, and another book, too, of your own. What are you going to take?

Pamela Rose36:22

I'd like The complete works or if not the complete works the complete poetry of T S Eliot.

Pamela Rose36:30

First of all, cats would make me laugh.

Pamela Rose36:33

And Ash Wednesday

Pamela Rose36:35

Has my motto in it for old age, and now I rejoice.

Pamela Rose36:40

at having to construct something upon which to rejoice.

Presenter36:45

Well, we shall give you uh the collected poems of TS Eliot then. And what luxury would make your life just a little bit more bearable?

Pamela Rose36:51

A very, very, very comfortable four-poster bed with a Macintosh roof. Would that be allowed? Definitely.

Presenter36:57

That below

Presenter36:59

I'll construct it myself.

Presenter37:02

Yes, it certainly would be allowed. And um finally, if you had to save one of these eight disks that you've chosen, which one would you save from the waves?

Pamela Rose37:09

Yeah.

Pamela Rose37:10

Do I think summer time?

Pamela Rose37:13

Because

Presenter37:13

Such Yeah.

Pamela Rose37:14

Yeah. Pure.

Pamela Rose37:16

Joyful note.

Presenter37:16

Trilly?

Presenter37:18

It's yours. Pamela Rose, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs.

Presenter37:23

It has been a great pleasure.

Presenter38:06

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.