Julia Samuel

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the psychotherapist Julia Samuel.

Presenter0:39

Counsellor for Pediatrics at London St Mary's Hospital and founder-patron of the Child Bereavement Trust, now Child Bereavement UK.

Presenter0:46

She spends much of her working life confronting some of the most sensitive, distressing, and complex experiences people have to deal with the death of a child and bereavement in childhood.

Presenter0:57

She's also instrumental in training other health professionals in how best to offer support to bereaved families. It seems an unlikely vocation for someone with such privileged beginnings. One of five children, she was born into the Guinness banking family, brought up largely by a governess, and then spent a year gadding about in the social swirl of Paris, before setting up her own interior decorating business. More recently, she was made godmother to His Royal Highness Prince George. Princess Diana had been a close friend and a strong supporter of the Child Bereavement Trust. She says, I feel fortunate to be able to do this work because it's very rewarding. It broadens my life in every sense. You experience people in ways that you don't in any other part of your life. They show such courage and strength.

Presenter1:44

So welcome, Julia Samuel. Um you must surely, given your profession, be a good listener. Does it feel unfamiliar and slightly unnerving to be here having to talk about yourself?

Julia Samuel1:53

It feels extremely unfamiliar. I'd much rather it was the other way round, but I'm delighted to be here.

Presenter1:58

Um to what extent when you're counselling uh people I mean, I you know, I tend to think that it might be a very sad job, but in reality, of course, when we remember people who are important to us and people we love,

Presenter2:11

We often do smile and the and joy comes into the room. Is is that something you recognise in your work often?

Julia Samuel2:16

Absolutely. I mean, the minute the parent is talking about their child that has died and they go back and they remember.

Julia Samuel2:23

You know, it's often the very small things that they remember that particularly touch them. Their whole face lights up.

Julia Samuel2:29

And within a session people will move from being kind of frozen in grief.

Julia Samuel2:34

to kind of laughing r and couples laughing together remembering the child that they loved is a very precious thing.

Presenter2:41

We hear a lot these days about the benefits of counseling, but of course there remain plenty people who are pretty sceptical about the whole thing. What would you say to convince people that it that it's time well spent and money well spent?

Julia Samuel2:53

I'd say to them, you know, counselling isn't a panacea for all ills.

Julia Samuel2:57

But it's come on leaps and bounds. There's so much good research about what we can offer and how we can help people now. The two biggest difficulties are depression and anxiety, and they have a huge crippling effect on people's lives.

Julia Samuel3:14

And having insight into yourself and a greater awareness of all the different aspects of what you're feeling, of what's happening in you, gives you more choices.

Julia Samuel3:26

But also I think they feel more connected with themselves, and that allows them to be more connected with other people. And when you have that, you feel that you have more resilience and more kind of efficacy in the world.

Presenter3:40

I suppose at the heart of what you do is to help people rebuild their lives. In your own life, what are the things that you think, I know I need this and it keeps me stable.

Julia Samuel3:49

Connection with people. I like structure. I'm incredibly habitual.

Julia Samuel3:54

An exercise. I kickbox and I could kick you very hard.

Julia Samuel4:01

I hope that's not a warning. Keith, my instructor, he cannot believe that someone as small as me can punch and kick as hard as I can. Let's hear your first piece of music, Julia Samuels.

Presenter4:12

Tell me about this one.

Julia Samuel4:13

So this is James Brown, Good Good Lovin', and I remember when I first heard this I was in Scotland and it was in the summer.

Julia Samuel4:23

And so it reminds me of really happy summer holidays, walking in the hills, being with my family and my children, picnics in the rain and peace.

Speaker 44:35

Got

Julia Samuel4:35

SAY

Speaker 44:35

What the fuck? I live

Speaker 44:48

Good love!

Speaker 44:50

Good love and made me feel so glad.

Speaker 44:55

Got something for you, baby.

Speaker 44:58

Make my life be true.

Speaker 45:01

Can't something for you, baby?

Speaker 45:04

That be true.

Presenter5:06

That was James Brown and Good Good Loving and you said memories for you, Julia Samuels not just being surrounded by your family and all their love, but the rainy picnics in Scotland. Um you were born in nineteen fifty nine then to Pauline and James Guinness. Your father was part of not the Guinness Brewing family, but the Guinness Banking family.

Presenter5:21

When you were growing up, how aware were you of the heritage of of the family that you'd been born into?

Julia Samuel5:28

In I was aware of it in the sense that my father was very proud of being Irish.

Julia Samuel5:34

and he had a pint of Guinness every Saturday.

Julia Samuel5:37

and we went to Ireland for Easter holidays.

Julia Samuel5:40

And we had like saffron kilts and iron jerseys. So

Presenter5:44

And were you aware of being part of this huge family that had a kind of social importance that was the Guinness family?

Julia Samuel5:52

Absolutely not at all. I was a little bit aware of it when I went to Oxford to to do a secretarial, and people made assumptions that I was part of a big, very grand family, which isn't really what I felt about myself. Tell me more about your dad then.

Julia Samuel6:07

He was very handsome.

Julia Samuel6:08

Very kind of dutiful, shy.

Julia Samuel6:11

He loved boats, so we went on boats and aisle and never caught any fish.

Julia Samuel6:15

But he'd become slightly Captain Black'cause he'd been in the navy and the war.

Julia Samuel6:19

And when he came back into harbour, he'd kind of start shouting orders at all of us, and we never did what he wanted, and he'd throw the rope and we'd drop it.

Julia Samuel6:27

And you Mother who is still alive. Then wealth What stands out in your memory? Me of her as a little girl.

Presenter6:37

Yeah.

Julia Samuel6:37

She loves people, so we always had a lot of people in the house.

Julia Samuel6:41

And, you know, we had a lot of fun with her. We met a lot of interesting people with her. It was a it was a very old fashioned childhood in a way. I don't that I don't think really exists now.

Julia Samuel6:52

a much more former where we lived in the nursery.

Julia Samuel6:55

We'd come down in the morning and say good morning and then go to school.

Julia Samuel7:01

Then she'd come up and have tea with us in the nursery.

Julia Samuel7:04

Always smelling gorgeous. She was very glamorous. She's she's very intrepid, my mother. You know, she hitchhiked across Af Africa in the late forties. Extraordinary.

Presenter7:13

Did you have to be well presented for her?

Julia Samuel7:16

Yeah, yeah, we were kind of all tidy and then we went downstairs to see their friends and I mean you can really can't believe it now, but we used to curtsey to their friends.

Presenter7:24

It's completely astonishing, isn't it? It sounds like an Edwardian childhood.

Julia Samuel7:26

It sounds like a

Julia Samuel7:27

It does. The other half of it that I haven't said was that we were in the country at the weekends where we did see our parents all the time, which was not formal.

Presenter7:35

Right.

Julia Samuel7:36

So that was very kind of wild and we were outside in the farm. So we had these two very different existences. I was the youngest, so I was always slightly running to catch up. Hugo and my twin brothers are very funny.

Julia Samuel7:48

My sisters, you know, were funny and clever, so I think between us we did make them laugh a lot.

Presenter7:55

Let's have some more music, Julia Samuel. Uh yes, tell me about this one then.

Julia Samuel7:59

This is The Beatles. All you need is love. W We were kind of ganged together, so there are two sets of twins. I've got twin sisters, Sabrina Miranda, and my sister in the middle. So my mother had five children in four years.

Julia Samuel8:12

And my dad always used to say, you know, Pauline, she always overdid it.

Julia Samuel8:16

And she really did. And there's a great photo of all of us five children.

Julia Samuel8:22

jumping on my sister's bed and were wearing Beetle pajamas and holding orange Beetle guitars and were singing a Beetle song.

Julia Samuel8:33

And it kind of reminds me of the great thing of being part of a big family, is that feeling of being in a band together.

Julia Samuel8:41

Being five is much greater than being on your own.

Julia Samuel8:44

which kind of warms you from the inside.

Speaker 48:47

Nothing you can make the company made

Speaker 48:51

No one you can save that don't be saved

Speaker 48:56

Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you in time.

Speaker 49:00

Easy.

Speaker 49:05

All you need is love.

Speaker 49:09

All you need is love.

Speaker 49:14

I need this love.

Speaker 49:17

No

Speaker 49:19

Love is all you need.

Presenter9:23

That was the Beatles, and all you need is love. Uh, Sir Julius Samuel, you were the youngest you are the youngest then of five, and you say always sort of running to keep up, as is the inevitable fate of the youngest child. Um you were a twin. Your brother is Hugo Guinness. People always talk about the special bond. Wa was it there? Is it there?

Julia Samuel9:41

I think it's part of me.

Julia Samuel9:43

You know, my job is about being in relationship. And being a therapist, I would say this, but you know, I was in relationship in utero. And if you look at scans of twins in utero, you see them sucking each other's thumbs, pressing their noses against each other. I do feel a kind of calm in my body that I can't really describe when I'm with him.

Presenter10:04

That you're a calm and collected person. Were you a a sort of calm, well behaved little child? I heard a rumour that you were a smoker from the age of seven.

Presenter10:14

I I'm ashamed to say it.

Julia Samuel10:16

I was a smeak for a while.

Presenter10:17

I've never heard such a thing.

Julia Samuel10:19

I know. It's really I just

Julia Samuel10:21

It's extraordinary. I can j I can see myself in my grey uniform and my little red berry going off into the garden shed every day before breakfast.

Julia Samuel10:29

And then my dad saw me one day.

Julia Samuel10:32

Complete

Presenter10:32

Uh Yeah.

Julia Samuel10:32

Yeah.

Presenter10:32

Did you get c cigarettes?

Julia Samuel10:34

I stole them from my mother. I slipped them up my sleeve. Bad habit. I dated Samuel's.

Presenter10:38

Julia Samuels, what do you make of that?

Julia Samuel10:42

I think it may be

Presenter10:42

Yeah.

Julia Samuel10:42

It was my way of being

Presenter10:42

It's

Presenter10:47

Secret.

Julia Samuel10:48

Something about the

Presenter10:49

The secrecy of it.

Julia Samuel10:50

Yeah.

Presenter10:50

Uh Are you somebody who needs to have things that are private and secret now, or'cause it seems to me you're a sharer.

Julia Samuel10:56

I am a sharer, but my job is very secret. So I never I hold hundreds of secrets, um which and I hold the secrecy very dearly.

Julia Samuel11:06

Yeah.

Presenter11:06

Tell me about the wonderfully ample bosomed Miss Lyons.

Julia Samuel11:10

Unimonica lines.

Presenter11:11

She was your governess, Jesus.

Julia Samuel11:12

She's with our governors.

Julia Samuel11:14

She was a big influence on all of our lives. She always whistled.

Julia Samuel11:18

And she had this wonderful bosom where you could just bury your head in it.

Julia Samuel11:22

And she had a nursery school at the bottom of the house for local children.

Julia Samuel11:27

But Hugo and I were at school.

Julia Samuel11:29

It was really nice. She had, you know

Julia Samuel11:32

If you make faces, the wind will blow, and you'll get lots of those things. And there was one great one about the Queen that you can't.

Julia Samuel11:40

Put your elbow on the table until you've met the queen.

Presenter11:46

Well, I imagine you now can put your both elbows on the table, I think. Both elbows on the table. Your bigger sister then, Sabrina, again part of part of a tune, she's now married to Sir Thom Stoppard.

Julia Samuel11:48

I keep loving face.

Presenter11:57

I note, going through all the research for you, that she was all over the gossip columns of the day when she was in her sort of late teens and onwards. She she stepped out with uh the Prince of Wales and Mick Jagger if if these stories are to be believed. Were you aware, as a teenager, that you had this terribly glamorous big sister?

Julia Samuel12:14

I was. I mean, she was very glamorous, she was very beautiful. Her and Miranda were photographed in magazines. I mean absolutely typical that they were photographed for vogue.

Julia Samuel12:25

And then like four years later,

Julia Samuel12:27

I was photographed for Vogue, but it was never published.

Presenter12:31

Uh

Julia Samuel12:31

Oh

Presenter12:31

Oh.

Julia Samuel12:31

Uh Sing

Presenter12:32

BITK.

Julia Samuel12:32

Crushing And tell me about it.

Presenter12:34

Your third piece of music then? What what

Julia Samuel12:36

This is Sweet Caroline Neil Diamond.

Presenter12:39

Have you chosen this?

Julia Samuel12:40

I love Neil Diamond's voice, and this C D was stuck in Michael's car for about five years.

Presenter12:48

Your husband, like

Julia Samuel12:48

My husband, we couldn't get it out. So wherever we went in the car, Neil Diamond came on. And so this is about remembering the children and I probably know better than most how incredibly lucky I am to have them.

Speaker 413:08

Touching hands

Speaker 413:12

Reaching out.

Speaker 413:15

Touching me

Speaker 413:18

Touching you, sweet girl.

Speaker 413:27

Good times never seem so good

Speaker 413:33

I've been in club

Presenter13:39

That was Neil Diamond and Sweet Caroline. So, Julia Samuel, you went to um you went to Paris, aged seventeen. I wanted to say in the introduction that you went to Paris to be finished because I like the idea of that, but I'm imagining it probably wasn't quite like that. You didn't go to a finishing school or anything.

Julia Samuel13:49

Because I like the

Presenter13:54

What did you do in Paris at seventeen?

Julia Samuel13:56

I went to learn French and had a horrible time. So I looked in the back of the Herald Tribune and saw that there was a job at Revlon Cosmetics. And I lied. I said I could speak French. I said I could write French. I d I mean, I would never dare do that now. It's like blissful ignorance, isn't it? What did your parents expect of you?

Presenter14:15

Do you think?

Julia Samuel14:16

Well, you know, they were old-fashioned, so they had a lot of expectations for Hugo, that he would.

Julia Samuel14:22

Go into the bank, or my father at one point wanted him to go into the army. And for me, the expectation was: I think that I would get married, which, of course, I did.

Presenter14:30

You're celebrating I think it's your thirty-fifth wedding anniversary this year with Michael. Did you have a big fancy wedding?

Julia Samuel14:36

We had a very big fancy wedding, most of whom I didn't know, between my parents and Michael's parents.

Julia Samuel14:41

They asked eleven hundred people to our wedding. I knew

Presenter14:44

Yeah.

Julia Samuel14:45

Maybe

Presenter14:45

A hundred? You trained as an interior decorator when you were first married. It's the nineteen eighties. I'm thinking swags and tales. Probably some rag rolling. A lot of peach and cream and all that. Tell me, what was your signature style?

Presenter14:59

My sister

Julia Samuel15:00

Signature star was copying everybody else's star.

Julia Samuel15:03

And yes, that was mainly swags and tales.

Presenter15:07

It was it was nineteen eighty seven then when you met I think you were at a a dinner and you met Diana Princess of Wales. What what did you make of her when you first met her?

Julia Samuel15:16

I was excited to meet her and we just hit it off. We started laughing together. There was something about her and something about me that kind of worked, and so it was it was a lovely thing.

Presenter15:27

Tell me about the next piece of music then. What are we going to do?

Julia Samuel15:29

So this is that this is about Donna?

Julia Samuel15:32

We went to a lot of Els and John concerts together.

Julia Samuel15:35

and she was a fantastically good friend to me.

Julia Samuel15:38

And I miss her. And I especially miss her laugh, which was this incredibly sort of mischievous, naughty giggle.

Speaker 415:48

Hail to scholar.

Speaker 415:52

But it's not gonna bother me, give it up tonight.

Speaker 416:01

It takes my breath away

Speaker 416:07

The way it looks tonight.

Speaker 416:15

With their smile

Presenter16:20

That was Elton John, and something about the way you look tonight chosen for your very dear friend, Diana Princess of Wales. So, Julia Samuel, it seems like something of a handbrake turn in your life, I think.

Presenter16:30

What was the catalyst for you becoming interested and deciding to train as a counsellor?

Julia Samuel16:36

I was asked to be chairman of Birthright of the fundraising bit.

Julia Samuel16:42

And I mean I know it sounds naive, but really babies dying wasn't

Julia Samuel16:47

in my mind. I just didn't think it happened. I had no

Julia Samuel16:51

idea about it and it kind of overwhelmed me. And I'd been so lucky I'd had four children without any problems and had always felt lucky, but

Julia Samuel17:00

I never fully realized how lucky I was.

Julia Samuel17:03

And I also went to a support group with a friend, and I didn't really know that people could talk so personally about their feelings, and I was rather blown away by that.

Julia Samuel17:13

So the combination of those two things meant that I became interested in counselling.

Presenter17:18

It was nineteen ninety two then when you applied fully trained for this uh job working at St Mary's Hospital in Paddington. At the time, what was the job title you were actually applying for?

Julia Samuel17:28

There wasn't a job title.

Julia Samuel17:30

I think I was given it maybe two or three years.

Julia Samuel17:33

Well, once I was in the job.

Presenter17:36

So what is the official title to define what it is you do?

Julia Samuel17:41

And there had never been a post at St Mary's and I'd met Professor Beard, the obstetrician, and it was his idea that he had a lot of mothers who had babies that died and they had no support. In those days they would have a baby that would die that would be a stillbirth and they would see the doctor for a six-week check following the death and there were no other systems for them at all. They would talk about the post-mortem or the causes of death or

Julia Samuel18:10

about what had actually happened. And it wasn't an uncaring environment. It was just that was the understanding that they had. But our understanding of

Julia Samuel18:20

What people's needs are is much greater now than we had then.

Presenter18:24

One of the very important things you do is you go out among pediatric uh professionals and you train them about how best.

Presenter18:33

To deal with bereaved families. This was, it seems extraordinary to me that this was pioneering and was not being done before.

Presenter18:40

I mean it it it is extraordinary.

Julia Samuel18:43

You pass on to them what's at the heart of what you're saying to them.

Julia Samuel18:46

When a child dies, medicine has failed.

Julia Samuel18:50

And What Families Need Is Your Humanity.

Julia Samuel18:54

But the the reason they got into that business in the first place was because they wanted to make a difference. They wanted to have contact with people.

Julia Samuel19:04

What we do in the training is kind of reconnect them with that because their lives are so busy and they the human beings can get lost in all of that kind of protocol that has to be done and forms that have to be filled. And we just want to kind of connect them to the part of themselves that got them into the business in the first place.

Presenter19:26

Tell me, then, Julia, about this next piece of music. What are what are we going to hear?

Julia Samuel19:30

Eric Clapton, Tears in Heaven.

Julia Samuel19:32

And I chose this because I have so many memories of these extraordinary families who have found a way of living again after something that's so unbearable. They've taught me so much and given me so much.

Julia Samuel19:50

And this song helps find a way of voicing what is very difficult to voice in such a tender way. Eric Clapton gave us permission to use this song for a video that we made to support families.

Speaker 420:08

Would it be the same?

Speaker 420:15

I saw you and Herbert

Speaker 420:21

Unless destroyed.

Speaker 420:31

God and Moore.

Speaker 420:34

Don't

Presenter20:42

That was Eric Clapton and Tears in Heaven. Sir Julia Samuel, the Child Bereavement Trust was founded back in

Presenter20:48

nineteen ninety four, by Jenny Thomas, with you as founder-patron, Princess Diana came to the launch party and uh interestingly, this was at a time when she had said very publicly that she was stepping away from public life. Why did she get involved?

Julia Samuel21:03

Orft.

Presenter21:03

Yeah.

Julia Samuel21:03

She did it as an act of friendship to me, which I'm incredibly grateful. But I think much more importantly, she did it.

Julia Samuel21:12

Because she had real understanding about the needs of bereaved families, she was incredibly supportive of people who wanted to go out there and make a difference.

Julia Samuel21:23

You know, she helped me so much. She helped me with my speech. She went with me and helped me choose what I was gonna wear. I got a lot more attention in the shop than I would have done on my

Presenter21:34

And what advice did she give you, given that she'd been through it all a hundred times over?

Julia Samuel21:39

I mean, she just said be yourself.

Julia Samuel21:41

And believed in me. And, you know, someone believing in you, I've had probably.

Julia Samuel21:45

half a dozen people really believe in me in my life and that

Julia Samuel21:49

That helps me believe in myself. And she was one of those very significant people.

Presenter21:54

Yeah.

Julia Samuel21:54

When

Presenter21:54

When she died so suddenly in 1997, a lot of commentators said that it marked at her funeral in particular that signalled a change in the way that British people dealt with grief. There was less of the stiff upper lip and more of the tears. Given your not just your friendship with her, but your considerable amount of professional experience, what what do you make of that commentary? Do you think that is a that's fair comment?

Julia Samuel22:21

I do think it's a fair comment. I think it is very interesting. I mean, I think what she.

Julia Samuel22:27

Represented and in some way was really expressed was.

Julia Samuel22:34

that what people want to see is your authentic self. You know, when she said hello to a child or picked up a child, it wasn't a mechanical act, it was a loving, warm human being that felt something, and that was transmitted from her.

Julia Samuel22:50

So when she died, I think people felt they lost a leader in.

Julia Samuel22:57

sort of truthful expression in a way.

Julia Samuel22:59

and they really felt the sadness of it.

Presenter23:02

A loss, of course, then of has been at the heart of her son's lives. Prince William has spoken publicly about losing his mother, and he said, Life has altered, and not a day goes past without you thinking about the one you have lost. And he himself is now patron of the charity. That must have been a very significant and special moment for you when he agreed to do that.

Julia Samuel23:20

It was a very special moment and

Julia Samuel23:24

a lovely connection between his mother and me and the organization. And bereavement isn't something that people are interested in. People are you know, grief feels like fear.

Presenter23:36

Yeah.

Julia Samuel23:36

And child death is unbearable to even think about. So he's enabled us to.

Julia Samuel23:44

be seen so that we can reach more people.

Presenter23:47

And the the family association very much then then continues. And you are now godmother to a little baby who one day well he's a toddler now will one day be our king, his Royal Highness Prince George. That's quite a big gig.

Julia Samuel24:01

It's a lovely thing. I am so

Julia Samuel24:05

Thrilled to be his godmother and

Julia Samuel24:08

To have the chance to get to know him and, you know, be the godmother that gives treats and is the kind of fun gig in his life.

Julia Samuel24:17

And actually to be as good a godmother to him as Dana was to my son would be what I'm aiming at.

Julia Samuel24:25

And, you know, I see him and I can't wait to get to know him better as he grows up.

Presenter24:30

Let's have some more music, Julia Samuel. What are we gonna hear now?

Julia Samuel24:33

This is about Michael. We had just started going out and we went to this wonderful party where we didn't know very many people and we found ourselves in a kind of annex on our own dancing to this song and my relationship with him has been the single most important and the best relationship in my life from which everything else has been able to grow.

Speaker 425:04

You saw me standing alone

Speaker 425:11

Without a dream in my heart

Speaker 425:18

Without a love of my own

Presenter25:33

That was Ella Fitzgerald and Blue Moon. And you said, Julia Samuel, that when you danced to that with your husband Michael, well, you knew that he was going to probably be your husband after that. You've got four children together. Given your background in understanding what makes people tick and also in understanding children, have you employed any of your professional nouse in dealing with your children and all the ups and downs that we have with our kids?

Julia Samuel25:57

You know, if they think I'm counseling and they just shout at me, don't don't do that to me.

Julia Samuel26:02

So

Julia Samuel26:03

But the image I had m of myself as a mother was a kind of jam-making home mother who

Julia Samuel26:10

sewed on all the name tapes and did everything, and that wasn't the mother I turned out to be.

Julia Samuel26:16

I was, you know, a working mother, I was an impatient mother, you know, I'm a a loving mother. And I think the only bit really that I've taken from my work is that we are good at talking together. We walk and talk. So when they're really angry with me or they want to talk something through, we go for walks. And we had, not that long ago, a holiday where all of us were quite miserable and quite pissed off with each other. And we spent our whole life just marching up and down the beach. But it kind of works.

Presenter26:46

And what about Michael in relation to your job? To be good at your job, I imagine you have to be very much emotionally available and open to the bereaved people that you're talking about. For Michael, has he ever had concerns about the the weight of what it is you bear in your work?

Julia Samuel27:04

It's changed my kind of reality.

Julia Samuel27:08

So when my children had headaches, I thought they had meningitis, I often, you know, would think that they were about to die.

Julia Samuel27:17

And he was very good at balancing me and kind of getting me back. You know, that it's rare, you know, six thousand children die a year.

Julia Samuel27:25

But I also I would ring the consultants at Mary's and they'd sort of talk me down at two in the morning.

Julia Samuel27:30

Um but so he's incredibly s

Presenter27:33

Supportive of me. Let's have some music, Julia Samuel. We're on your seventh disc of the morning. Tell me about this one.

Presenter27:40

And explain the title if you would.

Julia Samuel27:43

Deep

Presenter27:43

Folks

Julia Samuel27:44

Yeah.

Presenter27:44

That is the title.

Julia Samuel27:45

That is the title of the song. And this is about my best girlfriends who know me really well and love me whatever I'm like. And I really love this song. There's a kind of punch in it that really does something for me.

Speaker 328:00

Take me as I am.

Speaker 328:03

This may mean you'll have to be a stronger man.

Speaker 328:08

Rest assure that when I start to make you nervous And I'm going to extremes Tomorrow I will change And today won't mean a thing I'm up and

Presenter28:30

That was Meredith Brooks and Bitch and you with tongue firmly in cheek I think Julia Samuel you uh you dedicated that to all the the girlfriends you have who support you whatever you're like any any day of your life. Um in reading lots today and knowing I was coming to talk to you one of the things I read was that dealing with bereavement isn't about forgetting and moving on, it's about rebuilding trust in life.

Presenter28:54

What a very, very interesting thought. How does one go about rebuilding trust in life?

Julia Samuel28:59

I think when the child first dies, whether it's a sudden death or an expected death.

Julia Samuel29:05

Everything that you believe in is shattered, your trust that the future will be as you expected.

Julia Samuel29:11

And rebuilding that trust comes from facing that reality.

Julia Samuel29:18

and allowing yourself to feel the pain. There is also an instinct to survive, to live, and get on.

Julia Samuel29:28

And the process of rebuilding their life is allowing themselves to do both.

Julia Samuel29:33

Giving themselves a break to have time to watch a D V D, or have fun with a friend, or listen to a piece of music.

Julia Samuel29:42

And by allowing themselves to do that, they do adjust.

Julia Samuel29:46

But people who block the pain, they can do it by working very hard, drinking, sex.

Julia Samuel29:53

alcohol, drugs, whatever.

Julia Samuel29:55

That's where the real harm is done.

Presenter29:57

How do people

Presenter29:59

When they have been through a series of sessions talking to you, what is it that you are hoping to give them, to take away, that will be life affirming, that will make them feel

Presenter30:09

That they should pull back the covers and take one step and then the next step out of bed and get on with their day.

Julia Samuel30:15

The hope comes much, much later.

Julia Samuel30:19

I think what they get from me is a kind of trust in the relationship that they are understood as they are. I mean, when people are bereaved, most people want to cheer them up.

Julia Samuel30:29

They want to make them better and so they always have ideas that they

Julia Samuel30:34

Want to do, you know, let me take you out, let me do this, let me bring your lasagna, which all of those things help.

Julia Samuel30:40

But it doesn't give them the opportunity to say really what they're feeling.

Julia Samuel30:44

So it's the paradox that by them being able to tell me and me being able to sit with them and listen, and I don't tweak it, and I don't try and make it better, I don't change it

Julia Samuel30:57

frees them to kind of feel the hope for themselves. Yeah.

Presenter31:00

We might all know, families, that that has happened to. What should we be doing to help people through?

Presenter31:06

Stay

Julia Samuel31:07

Close to them. Make contact.

Julia Samuel31:09

be available to talk, to listen.

Julia Samuel31:13

So ask your friend, you know, what do they want? What helps? You don't have to know the answers, ask the questions.

Presenter31:22

Um I'm about to cast you away, I'm sorry to tell you that. Um, you'll only have your eight discs, and of course we'll come to the luxuries and the books in a moment, but uh

Presenter31:29

How will you entertain yourself?

Julia Samuel31:31

Uh

Presenter31:31

Yeah.

Julia Samuel31:32

I I mean I will be desperate on this island. The two things I like most, eating and people, uh it will be it will be a real problem for me.

Julia Samuel31:41

I'm I am a tough old bird, so I probably would find a way of getting a shelter over my head, but I will not like it at all.

Presenter31:50

To comfort you then, your final piece of music. Tell me about this. Why have you chosen this?

Julia Samuel31:54

I've chosen this because it takes me to memories of momentous experiences like my grandchildren being born.

Julia Samuel32:01

And with this piece there's a a calling voice in it, which in some way reminds me of me.

Julia Samuel32:08

And it nearly always makes me cry.

Presenter33:14

That was part of Rachmaninoff's Symphony No. two in E minor, opus twenty seven, played there by the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Gennady Rozdisianski. So it's time for me then to give you the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare. And you get to take another book along, Julia Samuel. What is your book going to be oh, you've got it with you, what's it going to be?

Julia Samuel33:32

Other Men's Flowers Edited by General Wavell.

Julia Samuel33:36

It's a poetry collection, and he's divided it up into love, death, hate, war, the call of the wild. And so it's a kind of brilliant way of kind of revisiting my life through these different poems that I haven't read before. Right, we shall give you that.

Presenter33:55

Then I

Julia Samuel33:56

Um

Presenter33:56

And you

Julia Samuel33:56

Uh

Presenter33:56

Uh

Julia Samuel33:56

R Allowed a luxury.

Presenter33:58

Help.

Julia Samuel33:58

Oh, you risby.

Presenter33:58

Yeah.

Julia Samuel33:59

Well, it's two things, but it's the same, so I hope I can have them both.

Presenter34:01

Let's see.

Julia Samuel34:02

It's a pen that my mother gave me with a notebook. Yes. Is that okay? That's okay. But wait, the notebook.

Presenter34:07

That's absolutely nothing.

Presenter34:09

Yeah.

Julia Samuel34:09

Please can I have a cover that is a kind of cut and paste photographs of people?

Julia Samuel34:14

As the covering is.

Presenter34:14

As the cover. If you already own such a book. Oh, yes, I do. Right. Well, in that case, you may take it.

Julia Samuel34:19

The next

Presenter34:22

And if I was to push you to save just one of these eight tracks, which one would you save from the waves? Blooming.

Julia Samuel34:27

Yeah.

Presenter34:28

It's yours, Julia Samuel. Thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you very much.

Julia Samuel34:33

Casty.

Presenter34:33

Yeah.

Presenter35:14

You've been listening to a download from the BBC.

Presenter35:17

You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website bbc.co.uk slash Radio4.