Wendy Dagworthy

Presenter0:00

Hello, I'm Kirsty Young. Thank you for downloading this podcast of Desert Island Discs from BBC Radio 4. For rights reasons the music choices are shorter than in the radio broadcast.

Presenter0:10

For more information about the programme, please visit bbc.co.uk/slash radio four.

Presenter0:34

My castaway this week is the fashion designer Professor Wendy Dagworthy. During her time as head of fashion at both Central St Martin's and the Royal College of Art, she has taught students who've gone on to great success, Stella McCartney, Erdem, and Antonio Berardi among them. Her skill lies partly in understanding the significance of, say, a well-cut pattern or a nicely turned seam, but also the warp and weft of a notoriously fickle industry. At just twenty three, she herself was the toast of the catwalks, with her own label selling round the world, and worn by the likes of Brian Ferry, Boy George, and Mick Jagger. Dubbed the High Priestess of Fashion, her creative talent, however, wasn't recession proof, and her business went under in the late eighties.

Presenter1:19

Given that reinvention is the lifeblood of fashion, it seems she was tailor-made for a new direction. Collecting her OBE in 2011 for services to the fashion industry, she wore a perspex hat designed by a former pupil. She says, We want students to take risks, like we did when we were younger, because there were no set rules. There was no one to follow. You just did it yourself. So that idea, Professor Wendy Dagworthy, of taking risks, that is central to creativity, is it in fashion?

Wendy Dagworthy1:49

Totally central, and we always encourage our students to really challenge what's going on, not do what's been before. So it's really finding your own design identity, believing in what you do and being passionate about what you do.

Presenter2:05

Um style, as we know, is very different from fashion. For a lot of women, it you know, it's a minefield what to put together, what to wear, how people will judge you, what messages you're sending. Um what you're wearing today, what message is that sending? You're wearing a black silk sort of shift that's very shiny, you're wearing a pair of white they're sort of golf shoes adapted for everyday wear with a silver thong on them and a very decorative necklace.

Wendy Dagworthy2:21

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy2:27

And I'm very

Wendy Dagworthy2:29

I think I just put together what I think's right. I don't tend to follow fashion as such and I think people need to find their own style, whether it be designer wear or clothes from the high street or wherever. I tend to mix and match anything. And I think if you look uncomfortably in something and the clothes are wearing you and you're not wearing them, it's much better to be easy and feel comfortable.

Presenter2:56

What would I find you wearing at home if you weren't expecting visitors? Would you ever wear a pair of sort of baggy bottomed sweatpants and some old slippers and a T shirt with a stain down the front?

Wendy Dagworthy3:06

Yes.

Wendy Dagworthy3:07

Yes, I would. And I wear I tend to wear jeans and a sweatshirt, T shirt and slippers from a hotel room that you're given free.

Presenter3:16

But you you always wear and I feel bad that I've had to ask you to take them off this morning you always wear it's a sort of signature of yours this great armful and it goes really from your wrist right up to your elbow joint of silver bracelets. That's is that your

Wendy Dagworthy3:22

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy3:28

That's your thing? It is. My husband's bought them all for me over the many, many years we've been married. He's bought them for anniversary, Christmas, birthday. You know, they're very precious.

Presenter3:40

Well, I'm sorry that I asked you to take them off because I know you'll forgive me.

Wendy Dagworthy3:42

I don't mind.

Presenter3:44

Let's have your first piece of music then, Wendy Dagworthy. Tell me about this. Why have you chosen it?

Wendy Dagworthy3:47

So it's uh Virginia Plain by Roxy Music.

Wendy Dagworthy3:51

They were looking for a designer to design some stage clothes for them. And this was in like something like 1972, when they were first starting out. And I designed clothes for Brian and for Phil Manzanera. And some of them are on the album cover For Your Pleasure. And this has great memories for me travelling with them to different gigs. I remember we went to one in Bath, and my husband and I were on the coach going to the gig. And I remember getting off, and John was amazed. He felt like a pop star.

Wendy Dagworthy4:21

All the screaming girls as they get off the coach. I mean, it was it was brilliant, so we had some some great times.

Speaker 24:28

Make me a deal and make it straight

Speaker 24:31

Once I let you

Speaker 24:35

Robert DeVurin

Speaker 24:39

I hope they don't blow it up.

Speaker 24:48

Big time.

Speaker 24:50

Take me on the brother cluster

Speaker 24:53

Take people and everything right and

Speaker 24:57

Take me for a six-day winner, don't you win, don't you know my fighter side by side?

Presenter5:05

That was Roxy Music and Virginia Play, and you were singling into that, Wendy Dagworthy, that you made clothes in those very early seventies. We are in the middle of a I suppose it's more of a kind of late seventies and early eighties revival right now, seeing the sort of resurgence, certainly in high street shops of those kind of styles. What's your view of that when things come around quite quickly? Do you just think, oh, that's a bit lazy?

Wendy Dagworthy5:27

No, I don't, because things do come round and they I think they always come round in a very, very different way. And I did the exhibition at the V and A, Club to Catwalk, and actually a lot of those clothes you could really wear now, but you would wear them in a different way.

Presenter5:41

What about the thorny issue of catwalk fashion? Because, you know, what we see when we look at the catwalks, either online or in snapshots, you know, is women who don't look like us displaying clothes that we will never wear. That's what it feels like to us normal people.

Presenter5:56

We're getting it wrong, are we? Should we embrace the catwalk and everything it stands for?

Wendy Dagworthy6:00

Well, I think designers are starting to slightly move away from the catwalk as well. I mean, I think it's I don't think it'll ever go away because it's the best way of showing clothes. Like designers are doing other things, like just presentations or film, but

Wendy Dagworthy6:14

It's I know the models are very slim, but they're the best.

Wendy Dagworthy6:20

people to put clothes on to show them to the best advantage.

Presenter6:23

What designers and people in the fashion industry always say. And real women like me think, Well, so that means I can't look good in your clothes. If if a real woman who's a size twelve, fourteen, actually sixteen, as we know, on the High Street in Britain, if she can't walk down a catwalk looking beautiful in your clothes, you're not designing them right.

Wendy Dagworthy6:26

Yeah.

Speaker 16:26

Uh

Wendy Dagworthy6:42

Well

Wendy Dagworthy6:43

I ag I I agree, um but I think it's having attitude, courage of your own convictions, to actually wear those clothes and take that on board. I mean, I'm five foot four. I'm certainly no catwalk model. You're very slim.

Presenter6:58

Very slim though, you're

Wendy Dagworthy6:59

Well, not that slim.

Wendy Dagworthy7:02

But I never wear very tight fitting clothes. So I just think you wear clothes that suit you. But I d I think it's a matter of attitude and really

Wendy Dagworthy7:14

You know, being positive in your outlook and saying, Actually, I can wear that. I mean, I remember seeing people walking on the street in my clothes, and it's it's a wonderful feeling. And I didn't care. I mean, yeah, they're all shapes and sizes. It doesn't matter. I just think, you know, it's so important that people are actually buying them and wearing them. And sometimes it's completely how you, you know, how you didn't imagine it being worn. But that doesn't matter. I think that's up to the person. Let's have your next piece of music, Professor W.

Presenter7:40

Wendy Dagworthy, we're only your second. Tell me about this then.

Wendy Dagworthy7:43

So this is Van Morrison, Days Like This. It's such a great record, this one, because it's those feelings of those days when everything goes right. Or you just get that phone call and you think, yes. When I got the phone call about coming on Desert Island Discs, I thought, you know, it's been a secret dream. And it was just think, God, how amazing. Just those days, they're the best.

Speaker 28:08

When it's not always raining

Speaker 28:10

W J is like this

Speaker 28:13

When does no one complain?

Speaker 28:16

W D like this

Speaker 28:18

Everything falls into place like the flick of a switch.

Speaker 28:23

Well my mama told me

Speaker 28:26

There'll be days like this

Speaker 18:27

Just like

Speaker 28:31

Well you don't need to worry

Speaker 18:32

Don't need to worry.

Speaker 28:34

There being days like this.

Speaker 28:36

When no one's in a hurry

Speaker 18:37

But no one

Presenter8:37

Ones and a hole.

Speaker 18:38

Alright.

Speaker 28:39

There'll be days like this

Presenter8:42

That was Van Morrison and Days Like This, and you were saying, Wendy Dagworthy, that another reason that you chose that beautiful track was because your father was a great sex player.

Wendy Dagworthy8:50

Yes, he was. Um he was very musical. He used to play the piano as well.

Presenter8:53

Your father, Arthur, then, was a sign writer, and your mum, Jean, was a housewife. You were brought up in Gravesend, in Kent. Paint me a little picture of family life. What was life at home like?

Wendy Dagworthy8:57

Topic.

Wendy Dagworthy9:02

It was very happy.

Wendy Dagworthy9:04

My father used to do the signs in the garage if it wasn't a big one, and I used to go and help him sometimes. And it was brilliant, you know, help him chalk a board and he was just such a perfectionist at what he did. And I remember his garage, where he used to brush off the excess paint off the brushes. The whole walls of the whole garage were just covered in paint, different colours, and it was just like a painting in itself. It was brilliant. And he would he made dolls' houses for you, did he? He made me a doll's house that I still have. Do you?

Presenter9:32

He may

Presenter9:34

Do you?

Wendy Dagworthy9:35

Yes, still have it. It's a double fronted house with four windows and a little front door that opens and the roof comes off and the back. So I used to play with it for hours and hours. And my mother made the clothes for the little dolls in there. But I used to make a lamp out of a a screw upside down.

Wendy Dagworthy9:56

with a toothpaste cap on it, and that was a little lampshade.

Presenter9:59

So you are a crazy little girl. You were good with your hands.

Wendy Dagworthy10:02

Yes. I used to make clothes from the age of probably twelve. I used to buy simplicity patterns or mere quant patterns at the time. And I I just used to adapt them and make clothes. I mean, we used to go out to a party or dance, you know, Saturday night and you go to the market in the morning, buy some fabric and make a dress for the evening.

Presenter10:21

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy10:22

Yeah.

Presenter10:22

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy10:22

It's interesting

Presenter10:22

You say about, you know, the patterns you use to adapt them. Where did you get the confidence to adapt a pattern? Most of us stick slavishly if we've got the nerve to make one at all.

Wendy Dagworthy10:29

The maid to meet one at all.

Presenter10:30

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy10:30

I don't know, I just used to cut them up and and I think, you know, it was sort of it was a lot I suppose clothes were quite simple then in a way, because they were the, you know, A-line shifts and so they were easy to knock up. Simple for you in an after

Presenter10:43

Simple for you. In an afternoon. Can you remember the first time you you actually sewed something, put it on and wore it out in public?

Wendy Dagworthy10:51

Yes, I can. It was a pink gingham shift dress, round neck, sleeveless, and that was it. I remember covers of honey. I remember seeing a pink shift dress on I think it was probably Twiggy and I just thought, oh, that's great. So I went out and got pink gingham. I've always loved gingham, anyway. And were you accessorizing? Were there other things with it? Probably some Mary Jane shoes.

Speaker 110:58

I remember that.

Wendy Dagworthy11:14

And prepare legs.

Presenter11:16

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy11:16

Yeah.

Presenter11:16

Let's have some more music, Wendy Dagworthy. Tell me about your cert.

Wendy Dagworthy11:19

Okay, the third one is Save the Last Dance for Me by The Drifters.

Wendy Dagworthy11:23

And this takes me back, I was probably 14, and it was the first time I'd be going out to dances. And we used to go to the boys' grammar school dances. We knew the bands and we used to be dancing up the front with our handbags in the middle. And they always used to play this song at the end of the dance.

Speaker 111:44

Oh I know, oh I know, that the music's fine, like sparkling wine, go and have your fun.

Speaker 111:51

Laugh and sing, but while we roll hard, don't give your heart to anyone.

Speaker 112:00

Cause don't forget who's taking you home and in whose arms you're gonna be.

Speaker 112:07

So Donnie.

Speaker 112:08

Say the last dance or me

Presenter12:13

That was the Drifters and saved the last dance for me. Professor Wendy Dagwarthy, you you are one of those uh the member of that generation who really the term teenagers was invented for. So there you are growing up in Gravesend, in Kent, uh through the fifties and and early sixties, and you started off seeing women, I imagine, in the streets wear hat and gloves when they went out, and then saw the gradual abandonment of that as you yourself became a teenager. Were you aware of that? Did it was it tangible to you that things were changing in terms of style?

Wendy Dagworthy12:42

Probably not at the time, but I think it was a really fantastic time to grow up. And yeah, there was a sense of freedom because clothes for teenagers used to be the same as their mothers. And excitement as well. You know, a sense of anticipation. We're going out to those dances for the first time and meeting boys. And it was just, ooh. And we used to go to the Black Prince Sunday nights and see people like Zoot Money and John Mayle. And, you know, it was just quite incredible. My father used to take us, and someone else's father used to come and collect us. And in clothes, yeah, we used to go to Carnaby Street and Bieber. I can remember buying a bright pink mini frock and purple shoes and things like that. It was great.

Presenter13:26

And when you bought those uh copies of Honey Magazine each month and sort of took them home to your bedroom and leafed through the pages, were you thinking, Oh, I want to dress like her? or were you thinking, Mm, I wouldn't do it?

Wendy Dagworthy13:38

But like that, you know.

Wendy Dagworthy13:39

Certain people, yeah, I did identify with, yes, and I just think like Twiggy, for instance, and, um, you know, it was ready, steady, go as well at that time. Kathy McGowan, you know, I l I thought she was brilliant, her hair and yeah, very I mean, you know, she was one I'd want to, you know

Presenter13:51

Yeah, yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy13:54

Copy, I suppose.

Presenter13:56

Um very few people I mean, you were making your own clothes. We heard about the little gingham dress, which I have to say I think sounds fabulous, but very few people and certainly very few teenagers these days would sit in front of you know a a sewing machine and bother to run something up for themselves. Um do you think that's a result of the sort of the availability of m mass produced fashion? You know, things now were so cheap that people are put off putting in the effort.

Wendy Dagworthy13:59

I'll drain the switch.

Speaker 114:00

Chapter 2

Wendy Dagworthy14:01

Sounds fabulous.

Wendy Dagworthy14:17

Putting in the effort. Yes, definitely. I mean, now you can just buy something s I mean, so cheaply that it's much more expensive to buy the fabric and make it yourself. Whereas then, I mean, because I suppose it was not long after the war As well, people made

Wendy Dagworthy14:32

Clothes and you know, sort of mended clothes. I remember my mother darning socks, and you know, it's unheard of now. And you know, I used to make clothes out of something else, you know, maybe a dress of my mother's. So, some students they come to college, you know, doing their first BA and they can't even make anything. You just think, why not? You know, if you're interested in that, why haven't you tried to make it yourself? And I think that's really important to actually address that in an art college. Let's have some more music, Wendy Dagwood. Tell me about your fourth then. What are we going to hear next? The fourth one is: Do you really want to hurt me by a culture club and boy George? He used to come into the studio and buy clothes. There's a great photograph of him travelling from the airport. He's got a black and white Czech mohano. Yeah, that's all my things. And it was such a great time, the 80s.

Presenter15:02

Tell me about it.

Speaker 115:17

Oh, I do mine.

Wendy Dagworthy15:24

We worked really hard, we were travelling a lot, we were doing about six exhibitions a year in Milan, Paris and London. It was a time we thought would never end.

Speaker 215:39

Do you want to do it?

Speaker 215:43

Do you really want to make me cry?

Speaker 215:47

Precious kisses once I find me Lovers never asking why

Speaker 215:57

In my heart the fires burn it

Speaker 216:01

Choose my colour, find a star

Speaker 216:06

Precious people always tell me that to everybody.

Presenter16:13

Culture Club with boy George there and Do You Really Want to Hurt Me? That was released around about 1982, so the height of his fame and sort of the height of your business and when you were making it. I want to rewind a little bit. You left home when you were 18, Wendy. That was in 1968. You moved to London and you went to Hornsey School of Art in North London. You graduated from there with a first-class degree and your end-of-term show, as I understand it, caused quite a stir. It was covered in The Times. Tell me a little bit about the clothes that you designed for that.

Wendy Dagworthy16:21

Yet it was

Wendy Dagworthy16:23

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy16:46

The clothes were very tailored, very structured suits, mainly.

Wendy Dagworthy16:51

In bright colours, greens and tartans and mixed with Liberty Prints. I think at the beginning I was starting to mix things that didn't really go together. And before that, at Medway College of Art, you know, it was just great going to Art College. We had such a fantastic foundation. We did everything from, you know, silversmith and ceramics and oh, paint I mean fine art, I mean absolutely everything.

Presenter17:17

I'm wondering how you started your business. If you have you know, your parents were just normal people, they weren't well off. How did you actually begin that small fashion business? Well

Wendy Dagworthy17:27

Well, I used to make all my own clothes after leaving college, and clothes for friends satin jackets, sequins

Wendy Dagworthy17:35

Lurex, yes. Fabrics that actually you wouldn't normally wear a jacket in, or trousers. And a friend of mine used to wear my clothes and she had a friend who had a shop called Countdown in the King's Road.

Wendy Dagworthy17:48

And they said, Oh, I love your jacket So I took some of my jackets along and they bought. So I thought, Well, maybe if they're interested other shops, I chose shops that I thought might be interesting in my clothes. And when I first got orders and you know,'cause I had to find money from somewhere, my mother gave me three hundred pounds to start and the bank and her with that first support. And the whole thing started from there, really.

Presenter18:14

When you were designing your your collections, you know, your signature items actually I mean, I'm sure they were well cut, but they were unstructured looking. You know, you they were sort of full circle skirts and oversized jackets and wool coats and so on. Where did you get your inspiration for those things?

Wendy Dagworthy18:28

Yeah.

Speaker 218:28

Yeah.

Presenter18:31

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy18:31

Ooh. Many places. Travel, India, that was a a constant inspiration. Yeah, I I used to look at the detailing on workwear. I mean, attention to detail, that's what I think is really important. Every detail of a garment should be thought about down to the last buttonhole, because that's what makes a great garment as opposed to a a garment. And Africa, I used to look to China. So I think and and pattern, I love pattern. Did you travel to those places? Do India and China?

Presenter19:02

And so on.

Wendy Dagworthy19:03

I went to India, which was fantastic. I used to buy a lot of fabrics from India, and I saw some of them being made. And that was what's so nice about the f the fabric. It wasn't perfect, it had imperfections, where maybe someone on the loom in the afternoon had had a different tension, or a twig had got in. Let's have your next piece of music, Wendy Dagworthy.

Presenter19:23

Um tell me about this next one.

Wendy Dagworthy19:25

So um it's How Can I Mend a Broken Heart by Al Green. And why have you chosen this? It was a very poignant time for me. I was starting on my own.

Wendy Dagworthy19:35

And I I just love a soppy song.

Wendy Dagworthy19:39

Can

Speaker 219:42

A broken heart.

Speaker 219:50

Can you stop the rain?

Speaker 219:52

Fall down.

Speaker 219:56

Tell me how can you stop?

Speaker 220:03

Oh some I'm shy.

Speaker 220:08

What makes the world

Speaker 220:11

Oh, I have to do it.

Presenter20:14

How can you mend a broken heart, Al Green there? You said introducing that piece of music, Wendy Dagworthy, that it reminded you of a time.

Presenter20:22

that that was difficult of starting up your business and I guess having the courage to start up your business. W were you worried in the in the beginning, in those early days? As well as having the dream that you could do it? The actual practicalities must have been rather overwhelming.

Wendy Dagworthy20:34

Whelming.

Wendy Dagworthy20:34

Do you know, I don't think I ever thought about it. I never thought I'm going to start my own company. I think I just gradually went into it.

Presenter20:41

And as the orders come in, just take me through that process, would you? So somebody says, Oh, we like that jacket, we'll have forty of those, please. When you're a tiny sort of one man band, how do those jackets actually get made? Well, I

Wendy Dagworthy20:54

found one machinist and I used to cut whatever it was, shirts, jackets, trousers by then. I'd done a little capsule collection. And we used to sew the buttons on myself and then

Wendy Dagworthy21:05

iron them and take them sh so yeah that was the process it was very cottage industry

Presenter21:10

You you were very young. What age would you have been when all this was going on?

Wendy Dagworthy21:13

This was about twenty-three.

Presenter21:15

So that was about the same time that you married John, your husband? We got married in that August, yes. Um it wasn't until you were in you were in your late thirties, thirty seven, I think, when you had your first son, Augustus. W was it that your career was all consuming? Were you preoccupied with all this making up?

Wendy Dagworthy21:17

We got

Wendy Dagworthy21:23

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy21:29

I think yes, we probably were both preoccupied because John.

Presenter21:29

I'm stopping the show.

Wendy Dagworthy21:34

A photographer, he had his own business as well, and I think.

Wendy Dagworthy21:38

Yeah, but we wanted you and I had a couple of miscarriages, so you know, they didn't come when you wanted them to. And I just I mean, that feeling of elation, it was one of those those days when I found out I was pregnant. It was wonderful.

Presenter21:52

And then three years later you have another son, Somerset, and I am wondering here you are, you know, a young designer with all of the demands you've got two little kids, two toddlers,

Wendy Dagworthy21:55

Yeah.

Presenter22:03

In amongst the you know the the the mashed banana and the play-doh and the babysick, how do you stay in touch with the cutting edge? Because you know that's what good fashion is about. You're in touch with the street.

Wendy Dagworthy22:13

Yeah. Well, when I had Augustus, yeah, he was born in eighty seven and that was the beginning of the end, I think, for me in fashion, because Black Monday the financial crash, we lost

Wendy Dagworthy22:27

practically all the shops we sold to in America overnight practically and Italy. And we carried on for a bit, but then I I had to put the business into liquidation. We were up against those big giants as well. We couldn't afford to advertise. I probably should have got a backer, but I never did. And I just think

Wendy Dagworthy22:49

In a way, it's good that it happened.

Presenter22:51

When you have built a small business you know, I mean people who were buying clothes in in the eighties will will remember your name. You know, it was up there with the best of them. When you've built a business to the stage where your name is recognizable, your clothes are recognizable, when you see the pyramid of cards collapsing and you're not in control of it, what's the sensation?

Wendy Dagworthy23:13

Relief. It was a sense of relief in a way. I never thought it would happen. You know, I could see me going on for ever and ever being a designer. But.

Wendy Dagworthy23:23

I think if you go through that for a year or so, and it was a real struggle, and that is what.

Presenter23:28

And that is what sort of saying to creditors, I can't pay the bills.

Wendy Dagworthy23:29

I can't pay the bills. I didn't know. And, well, it turned out really well.

Wendy Dagworthy23:54

Let's have some music, Wendy Dagworthy. Tell me about this. You're sixth of the morning. Handle with care the travelling wheelburys. We've listened to it for years and years, and it just reminds me of holidays in Majorca with the boys.

Speaker 224:07

Be feet up and spoutin' around.

Speaker 224:12

Beats enough and I beat yourself down

Speaker 224:16

You're the best thing that I've ever found.

Speaker 224:20

And only with her.

Speaker 224:24

Reputations checkable.

Speaker 224:28

Situation's tolerable.

Speaker 224:33

Baby, you're adorable.

Speaker 224:37

And only with them

Presenter24:39

The Travelling Wilburys and Handle with Care. Wendy Dagworthy, do you ever take your designs out of the attic, or maybe they're still in your wardrobe, and sort of, you know, try them on and look at them and think, you know, they weren't half bad?

Wendy Dagworthy24:47

You know.

Wendy Dagworthy24:51

I've got seven huge trunks that

Wendy Dagworthy24:54

serve as bedside tables in every bed actually every bedroom. And um my sons, they go through the trunks and they wear my clothes and they've got coats from the eighties, shirts from the seventies. They wear them now.

Presenter25:09

Given that they're your sons, do they ever say, Mum, what were you thinking? That's a disaster.

Wendy Dagworthy25:16

Uh See ya.

Wendy Dagworthy25:17

As yet, but I'm sure, yeah, some things they would.

Presenter25:20

So around about the time that you shut up shop with your business then, you were invited to join Central St Martin's College in London teaching.

Presenter25:28

Was it difficult to feel enthusiastic about that, or did you find that you had a natural vigour?

Wendy Dagworthy25:34

No, I just went for it. I just thought you're somebody who looks ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

Presenter25:36

You're somebody

Presenter25:37

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy25:38

I never look back in regret. I don't think you can change what's happened, and you just have to go forward. And I was external examiner there at that time. So it was an easy transition. And were you?

Presenter25:49

Were you a stickler? Were you one of those people who would sort of turn over a buttonhole or a seam and think?

Presenter25:56

Not on my watch.

Wendy Dagworthy25:57

Yes, yes, I was. Yeah,'cause I think attention to detail is really important. And it was great. I mean, yeah, I just did it my own way, I suppose.

Presenter26:09

Do you? Did you? I mean, I now I know you've only now just stepped down as a professor, but when you're talking to your students, do you tell them?

Presenter26:16

About your personal history. Do you say to them, Look, don't be too starry-eyed about this because it's really, really tough?

Wendy Dagworthy26:24

Yeah. Yes, we do. And we have I mean at college at Royal College we used to have um other designers coming in, talk about the pitfalls and and it's not I mean everyone thinks it's very glamorous being a d fashion designer. It's not. It's really hard work. You know, once you finish one collection you're on to the next. And you have to love it to do it. But

Wendy Dagworthy26:46

Best not to be a complete fashion victim. Have other interests as well. Literally.

Presenter26:51

Let's have your next piece of music then, Wendy. Tell me what we're going to hear now. This is your seventh.

Wendy Dagworthy26:51

I think that's a good idea.

Wendy Dagworthy26:55

This is your seventh? Yes. No Woman, No Cry. Why have you chosen this? Bob Marley and the Wailers.

Wendy Dagworthy27:01

Because when this album was recorded, my husband and I, John, we were actually there at the Lyceum Ballroom in the Strand, July nineteen seventy five, and it was such a brilliant evening. Jam packed. It was

Wendy Dagworthy27:17

Yeah, unforgettable.

Speaker 227:29

No, come and look like

Speaker 227:36

No woman, no crowd.

Speaker 227:42

No, oh man, right.

Speaker 227:47

Say

Speaker 227:48

Let I remember when we used to sit.

Presenter27:54

That was Bob Marley and the Wailers and No Woman, No Cry, and as you say, Wendy Dagworthy, you were there in the audience. Could you hear yourself shouting there with me in the background, I wonder?

Speaker 227:58

End the audio.

Presenter28:02

It was nineteen ninety eight then when you became Head Professor of Fashion at the Royal College of Art, and as I understand it, you were tasked with spicing up a slightly stuffy art school. So what was on your to do list?

Wendy Dagworthy28:14

I think it was to

Wendy Dagworthy28:16

Get a really good team together.

Wendy Dagworthy28:19

bringing new young designers as well. So completely lift it and encourage students to really do what they believed in.

Wendy Dagworthy28:29

And to enjoy it as well. I think that's really important, to enjoy what you do.

Presenter28:35

So if they say, you know, I want to to laser print a bumblebee onto a pair of trousers that have got no back side in them and have funny flipper feet that are almost like shoes, do you say you go right ahead?

Wendy Dagworthy28:46

Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. They yes, I do. I mean, within reason, obviously, but yeah, you can advise, and it's up to them whether they want to take that advice or not. But, you know, for commercial reasons, you can always bring something back.

Wendy Dagworthy28:59

They can go as far as they want and then maybe refine it slightly and then bring it back into something that's more to do with reality. Do you keep contact with your pupils after they've gone? Do they seek your opinion?

Presenter29:10

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy29:12

Sometimes, yeah. And, you know, at the Royal College of Art we have a a gala fashion show and we I've invited lots of them to be guests of honour. And they came to my leaving party and lots of them. So, yes.

Presenter29:21

I mean you've just retired then from the Royal College of Art. W was that a a big did that feel like a big d

Wendy Dagworthy29:24

From the Royal College of Art.

Wendy Dagworthy29:28

Decision?

Presenter29:28

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy29:28

A big decision. But I think you know when you're ready. And education's changing slightly as well. It's getting tougher. But it wasn't because of that. I mean, I love what I do, but I just thought the time was right to do other things. My husband's retired now as well, and we just want to explore different countries, go away for a couple of months, you know, and it's only when you retire you can actually do that. Do you ever

Presenter29:53

Forget out the pattern cutting shears and the sewing machine and run yourself up something these days.

Wendy Dagworthy29:59

No.

Wendy Dagworthy30:00

I don't. I might do a bit of mending on the machine. I've still got my sewing machine that I had as a twenty first present.

Wendy Dagworthy30:08

And it's still running and I used it the other day just to mend some jeans for my son.

Presenter30:14

Let's talk about practicalities on this island, and specifically the practicalities of what you're going to wear. Let's say that you're washed up. Let's say that you have to find something or make something to wear. What would you use around you?

Speaker 130:21

Yeah.

Presenter30:26

Well, I hope it's a hot island.

Wendy Dagworthy30:28

Then

Presenter30:28

Uh

Wendy Dagworthy30:28

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy30:29

I think I'd look for some palm trees or something, make myself a grass skirt.

Wendy Dagworthy30:34

At uh some sort of top. Coconut shoes, I'm wondering. Coconut shells, maybe.

Presenter30:36

Coconut shoes, I'm wondering.

Speaker 130:37

I

Presenter30:37

Uh

Speaker 130:37

Yeah.

Presenter30:40

That's a bra. Yes, not shoes. Right, let's have your eighth track then.

Wendy Dagworthy30:40

Yeah.

Wendy Dagworthy30:44

Tell me about this. What are we going to hear, Wendy? It's Lovey and Rose by Grace Jones, which actually roughly translates into seeing life through rose-coloured glasses, which I think I probably do sometimes. And we saw her live. I think she's amazing. I mean, she's got such an amazing body and so powerful. And after seeing her live, we went to a party and she turned up there, which was even, you know, a real bonus. And I think, you know, it sums up life at that time. We were holidaying in south of France with friends of ours. And first time in New York.

Wendy Dagworthy31:18

It was the taxi drivers strike. They were striking against Concord landing there. So we had to get a helicopter into Manhattan for the first time ever. It was just brilliant.

Speaker 231:29

Com hilton enc'est par.

Speaker 231:33

Il épole ruba, je foi la vien moistur.

Speaker 231:40

I'm not sure if I can do it.

Speaker 231:44

Temo d'etre jour is tambour

Speaker 231:51

Let go, put one more cup.

Presenter32:00

La Vien Rose, Grace Jones. I'm going to give you Wendy Dagworthy the books now. You get to take the Bible and the complete works of Shakespeare to this island, and you're allowed to take one other book along too. What else will it be? It's going to be

Wendy Dagworthy32:12

The Raj Quartet by Paul Scott. It was a toss up between the quick guardian crosswords that we do every morning. But I read this book many, many years ago and I just love that whole colonial

Presenter32:25

Life. Right, that's yours then. And a luxury to make life on the island just a little bit more comfortable. Red lipstick.

Presenter32:33

Which you are wearing today on the side.

Wendy Dagworthy32:34

I'm wearing it and I've worn it since the age of twenty. I never go out without it.

Presenter32:36

I never

Presenter32:38

I'm going to give you a case of that, and I'm going to give you a fridge to put it in. Oh, okay.

Wendy Dagworthy32:42

Yeah.

Presenter32:42

It might melt.

Presenter32:44

I'm really worried that it would, yes. And finally, if you could only save one of these eight tracks, which one would it be?

Wendy Dagworthy32:45

And finally

Wendy Dagworthy32:50

Uh

Presenter32:50

God, this has been so hard. I've been agonising all the way here. But I think it's No Woman, No Cry. It's yours, Professor Wendy Dagworthy. Thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island discs. Thank you.

Presenter33:10

You've been listening to a download from the BBC. You'll find more information on the Radio 4 website: bbc.co.uk slash Radio 4.